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I'm not sure I understand the first sentence but I'll try.
Price is subjective as well. And if you don't feel you are getting the desired value I can see you not buying.
I have been playing since 1991. IF the game never changed people would complain that it is old and stale. People complained that they weren't releasing things, now they complain that they are releasing them too fast. We all have a camp that we are part of. I am part of the I enjoy this and will do it for as long as that continues'.
Again not sure what you mean as far as which is more variety..
I'm guessing you mean what variety not including different army options and stories.
I can play a game from 500-3000 points.
I have rules to pay tens of thousands of points.
I can play just vehicles, infantry,. This versus that.
Scenario's, campaigns.etc.
What is the positive change you are looking for?.
Price is not subjective. You have folks in the modeling industry who create and produce miniatures that state directly that Games Workshop is highway robbery.
I really don't know how to address your other statements as they are seriously left field. And left field baseball when everyone else is playing football. And there is plenty of evidence that the "as long as that continues" portion of your statement will be not much longer; all dependent on the next financial statement and how Games Workshop reacts.
If you want to really dig into why people would be upset, take the words from someone who has played 40k just as long as yourself, or longer, has been a corporate executive for an international company, and produces his own products for the miniatures hobby:
This also ties strongly into what has killed Fantasy, primarily the rules and the ever expanding cost of starting the game. The game doesn't work until 2000+, something that Warhammer 40k is approaching, and requires you to buy multiple boxes of the same model to just make one effective unit. Fantasy tanked with 7E and never really recovered in 8E.
Maybe I should have been more specific. Whether or not a price is too high is subjective. Value is driven by the individuals. I get my desired value, you don't we are a wash. The numbers show that people are getting their value because they are buying
GW is very similar in price to other similar systems within the market.
You can look through to a very recent post and GW financials are doing very well. With good recovery since their big 25% hit.
The' as long as' could end tomorrow and is not solely based on GW. This is the point that I have attempted to make in many discussions. Each person decides their level of enjoyment, your unhappiness is not the doom and gloom of the company. As long as the majority are still entertained and happy they will continue without you.
The gentleman at Masterminis does have valid points. He is also speculating on GW.
GW has internal issues that need addressing especially since they are responsible to share holders, making things much more difficult.
I do have worries that GW could fail. But their mismanagement of business is not directly related to the vocal few that claim a rule is broken.
I would disagree on fantasy as well. Everything 'fantasy' is struggling these days.
You never said what the positive chane is that you are looking for.
The new starter set, well not really new anymore, but DV sold out in all the stores I play at and were that way until a month or so after I started playing. Now this could be new and current players buying as it is a very good deal, but the prices for getting into the game varies depending on the army and the set you buy. Seen new players dump the $300+ on the SM Strifeforce Ultra without hesitation and seen others hesitate to spend $90 for a Battleforce so it varies considerably.
Citing actions of other companies that sell an over expensive product, EA being one of the largest has gone on strong for years with the playerbase knowing how bad EA is with pricing. They've gone up and down in their stock for the last few years and they are continuing to go strong. It is unlikely that GW will flat out collapse based purely on their pricing. They have more than enough avenues for revenue to keep them afloat.
A forced change in business practice and pricing may happen in a few years but the game will easily go on for another 5 or so years. People are going to pay buttloads for the new Ork stuff coming out, the new BA codex later this year and the rumored starter set will bring in players and cash.
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
I'm not sure I understand the first sentence but I'll try.
Price is subjective as well. And if you don't feel you are getting the desired value I can see you not buying.
I have been playing since 1991. IF the game never changed people would complain that it is old and stale. People complained that they weren't releasing things, now they complain that they are releasing them too fast. We all have a camp that we are part of. I am part of the I enjoy this and will do it for as long as that continues'.
Again not sure what you mean as far as which is more variety..
I'm guessing you mean what variety not including different army options and stories.
I can play a game from 500-3000 points.
I have rules to pay tens of thousands of points.
I can play just vehicles, infantry,. This versus that.
Scenario's, campaigns.etc.
What is the positive change you are looking for?.
Price is not subjective. You have folks in the modeling industry who create and produce miniatures that state directly that Games Workshop is highway robbery.
I really don't know how to address your other statements as they are seriously left field. And left field baseball when everyone else is playing football. And there is plenty of evidence that the "as long as that continues" portion of your statement will be not much longer; all dependent on the next financial statement and how Games Workshop reacts.
If you want to really dig into why people would be upset, take the words from someone who has played 40k just as long as yourself, or longer, has been a corporate executive for an international company, and produces his own products for the miniatures hobby:
This also ties strongly into what has killed Fantasy, primarily the rules and the ever expanding cost of starting the game. The game doesn't work until 2000+, something that Warhammer 40k is approaching, and requires you to buy multiple boxes of the same model to just make one effective unit. Fantasy tanked with 7E and never really recovered in 8E.
GW is very similar in price to other similar systems within the market.
Product for product? Possibly, but there are some decidedly unfavourable match ups, and when you look at the total cost required to start a game from scratch, Warhammer suffers really badly.
You can look through to a very recent post and GW financials are doing very well. With good recovery since their big 25% hit.
No, their most recent financials are terrible for a PLC, and continue to be so, as their financial report is a semi-annual document.
Their share price has recovered somewhat, but a company's share price is no indicator of it's financial health, it is an indicator of the market's perception of it's financial health, and I haven't checked the dates, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an uptick in share price that correlated nicely with GW announcing a dividend and setting the date for which ownership of shares was required to qualify.
GW has internal issues that need addressing especially since they are responsible to share holders, making things much more difficult.
I do have worries that GW could fail. But their mismanagement of business is not directly related to the vocal few that claim a rule is broken.
I would disagree on fantasy as well. Everything 'fantasy' is struggling these days.
This is a common misconception. "Having shareholders" does not somehow prevent a company from operating normally day to day. There is a theory that maintaining share value and paying dividends encourages a certain degree of short-termism in the way the company is run, and GW's recent past would certainly appear to endorse that theory, but, apparently surprisingly to some, a company with a strong product, mature and content customer base who are consequently spending freely, and a consistent, profitable, financial performance is actually really popular with shareholders.
The market is also, relatively speaking, quite understanding, and if action was deemed necessary for the long term health of GW that would negatively impact the short term, then if that was announced, in advance, with well supported reasons, the damage could be managed very effectively. What the market doesn't react well to is nasty surprises, with little explanation to support them. This is what happened in January, and why the GW share price took such a kicking.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
This is a common misconception. "Having shareholders" does not somehow prevent a company from operating normally day to day. There is a theory that maintaining share value and paying dividends encourages a certain degree of short-termism in the way the company is run, and GW's recent past would certainly appear to endorse that theory, but, apparently surprisingly to some, a company with a strong product, mature and content customer base who are consequently spending freely, and a consistent, profitable, financial performance is actually really popular with shareholders.
The market is also, relatively speaking, quite understanding, and if action was deemed necessary for the long term health of GW that would negatively impact the short term, then if that was announced, in advance, with well supported reasons, the damage could be managed very effectively. What the market doesn't react well to is nasty surprises, with little explanation to support them. This is what happened in January, and why the GW share price took such a kicking.
Very true, but let me ask, have you seen this anywhere else in companies? I've seen it in a few and they've bounced back no problem. One company almost went entirely out of business, took two years to fix the problems then came back fully stable and are turning a profit. Companies have their ups and downs, so GW is in a downward turn right now, but that is the key thing, right now. It is too early to do anything more than theorize as to what "may" happen.
But just to play devil's advocate. Let's say they are in a downward spiral, dropping their prices and fixing rules is nowhere near enough to turn that around. If GW goes down, it is going to plummet and the entire company will go belly up.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/06/21 17:41:09
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
Some companies manage to turn things around, normally by being humble enough to admit they've cocked up and look at things again, GW hasn't given any indication it is one of those companies.
It isn't just the downturn, so much as the downturn which dovetails so nicely with what was anticipated by so many based on previous reports and actions.
This is the reason, for those with a specific interest, that the next report is so interesting, it will mark whether we're looking at a blip or a trend.
If, after a double digit drop in revenue in the interim, and the release of a new version of their absolutely dominant core product, the best they can muster is another year of essential non growth, when information from other companies within the same sector constantly suggests fairly healthy increases, then that doesn't look good, especially when there's no real indication of a change in approach of any substance.
If, after the release of a Knights and 7th, they STILL can't even maintain the same level as last year, then that could be a sign of real problems.
If they were to actually demonstrate a genuine desire to reconnect with the community, develop the rules etc, etc, I think they'd turn around, and quick. The sole reason threads like this exist, go in for pages, and get so heated is because there's still a huge amount of affection for Warhammer, and that's allied with a degree of frustration that it seldom reaches the potential it appears it could, with apparently little effort or cost.
Address the core problems that come up again and again, and I suspect you'd see a massive influx of returning players, and many more players happy to introduce new blood, rather than directing new players to other systems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/21 17:50:29
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Kilkrazy wrote: Everyone can have their opinion but at the end of the day last year people spent £130 million on GW stuff.
(I wasn't one of them FWIW.)
It's not so much opinion as facts... facts that we don't know so can only guess at beyond the GW financial statements.I'm sure they could raise the price 200% beyond here and there'd still be a few sick puppies who would buy it.
azreal13 wrote: It isn't just the downturn, so much as the downturn which dovetails so nicely with what was anticipated by so many based on previous reports and actions.
This is the reason, for those with a specific interest, that the next report is so interesting, it will mark whether we're looking at a blip or a trend.
If, after a double digit drop in revenue in the interim, and the release of a new version of their absolutely dominant core product, the best they can muster is another year of essential non growth, when information from other companies within the same sector constantly suggests fairly healthy increases, then that doesn't look good, especially when there's no real indication of a change in approach of any substance.
If, after the release of a Knights and 7th, they STILL can't even maintain the same level as last year, then that could be a sign of real problems.
Agreed. Then we can have this discussion against in another year and talk about what could be done. GW isn't a stupid company, once shareholders start losing a lot of money, they'll put pressure on the company to change tactics. From there GW will need to figure out the best solution. But short of a complete overall, if this downward spiral occurs, everything is a complete band-aid.
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
azreal13 wrote: If, after the release of a Knights and 7th, they STILL can't even maintain the same level as last year, then that could be a sign of real problems.
I do think that 7th edition will keep the reports looking decent. Even if a large portion of people ignore it or quit, there will be a large portion who buy the expensive books and push up the revenue.
If GW are implementing a strategy of releasing expensive things required to play with the current rules more frequently, I'm sure that will prop up the numbers a little bit longer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/21 17:51:26
Lobomalo, you fail to understand that almost all the negativity on these boards is born from a genuine love for the game."Go play something else" is an easy advice to give, but it doesn't fly in the face of the people who spent mountains of cash and hundreds of hours of their time, only to be mocked by GW's total disregard of its fans. I won't support them anymore because I know what follows- quick cash grabs, more DLC's , more broken hopes of a good ruleset... Our resident Ork player was getting excited about the new codex and the only thing I could say to him was "Don't get you hopes up". And sadly I turned up right, judging from the leak. I tried to stay positive,but in the end it started to smell too much like a Stockholm Syndrome.
azreal13 wrote: It isn't just the downturn, so much as the downturn which dovetails so nicely with what was anticipated by so many based on previous reports and actions.
This is the reason, for those with a specific interest, that the next report is so interesting, it will mark whether we're looking at a blip or a trend.
If, after a double digit drop in revenue in the interim, and the release of a new version of their absolutely dominant core product, the best they can muster is another year of essential non growth, when information from other companies within the same sector constantly suggests fairly healthy increases, then that doesn't look good, especially when there's no real indication of a change in approach of any substance.
If, after the release of a Knights and 7th, they STILL can't even maintain the same level as last year, then that could be a sign of real problems.
Agreed. Then we can have this discussion against in another year and talk about what could be done. GW isn't a stupid company, once shareholders start losing a lot of money, they'll put pressure on the company to change tactics. From there GW will need to figure out the best solution. But short of a complete overall, if this downward spiral occurs, everything is a complete band-aid.
No they won't.
"The Shareholders" are, by and large, Tom Kirby and a handful of large institutions. If GW ceases to make money for the large investors, they'll dump their stock and buy something else (which has already happened this year) and what's Kirby going to do? Fire himself?
The rest are made up of small private investors, and they're unlikely to all pull in the same direction effectively enough to affect change.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
No, it really isn't in this case. Producing injection-molded plastic model kits is a subject that is pretty well understood by now, and when you compare GW kits to other manufacturers the GW kits are incredibly expensive for their size and level of detail. They're, at best, adequate gaming models where you're willing to put up with lower quality and higher prices because you enjoy the game and they're game pieces, not display kits.
The quality is fine for what it needs to be. You are right, they are game pieces. They are priced in line with other similar systems. If you don't find value in it that is your call. Not the fault of the company. I find value in their models
People complained that they weren't releasing things, now they complain that they are releasing them too fast.
You're missing the reason WHY people are complaining: the increase in the speed of releases has come at the cost of a decrease in the quality of new releases. Even ignoring blatant DLC-style spreading of the same content into multiple $50 books and reduction of page counts in each new codex there's a general feeling that GW is rushing out half-finished products in a desperate attempt to keep sales numbers up.
I'm not missing why people are complaining. The same 5 people are screaming it at the top of their lungs. Did you know book publishers re publish books with new covers every few years. They even change font and page size charging more for the collectors book It's standard practice.
You may not agree with the content but they have not declined in quality. Hard covers, full color, large amounts of artwork, heavy weight pages.
I can play a game from 500-3000 points.
I have rules to pay tens of thousands of points.
I can play just vehicles, infantry,. This versus that.
Scenario's, campaigns.etc.
Any game can do this. Praising 40k for having a range of point values makes about as much sense as praising it for letting you play on a 6x4 table or a 6x4 space on the floor.
Not quite. It is subjective.
Chess tells me I must play on 8x8 square board and must use specific pieces.
Risk tells me that this is what I start with, so does Axis and allies. Tells me my board to use
40k could tell me all these things. They don't and I praise them for it. Because I like 40k better than those other games. I like the openness. Not being more specific is not a fault, it is a freedom (IMO)
Any game CAN do this. And how do you praise them? By buying the product and playing it.
Do you sit down at a chess board and complain that your pawn only goes straight one space, or that your bishop only moves diagonal. You should be playing it for what it is.
OK, assuming the next report is bad. (which it might not be) what could GW do to turn it around?
It would have to lower prices or make more entry level stuff for beginners and people on a budget.
It would have to restart communication with the player base that they have destroyed. This will help restore good will and ease the growing frustrations of a player base that feels ignored and despised. (A few statements by GW employees and Kirby himself haven't helped.)
It would have to repair its relationship with independent stores.
That would be a start but it would go a long way, I think.
Then there's the issues with poor external and internal codex balance. Some units are grossly OP and some are ridiculously useless. That creates less variety in armies and frustration for new players when they find out their shiny new toys don't work. This could lead them to quit. Thus creating yet another barrier to entry.
Lately the codex's have gained a reputation for being uninspired and boring. Many changes seem arbitrary and random and the fluff is just recycled from the previous codex. All with a high price tag. This lowers the value for some players. A new codex is supposed to be exciting and bring a new burst of energy from the player base. After reading the nid, Guard and now the Ork dex threads, I see a whole lot of confusion and apathy.
Other side games like Blood Bowl and Necromunda. This fills the gap for people that like GW but don't have the time, money or patience for building a 2000 pt army. (But then other companies have filled these niches so I'm not sure how good that approach would be.)
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
TychoTerziev wrote: Lobomalo, you fail to understand that almost all the negativity on these boards is born from a genuine love for the game."Go play something else" is an easy advice to give, but it doesn't fly in the face of the people who spent mountains of cash and hundreds of hours of their time, only to be mocked by GW's total disregard of its fans. I won't support them anymore because I know what follows- quick cash grabs, more DLC's , more broken hopes of a good ruleset... Our resident Ork player was getting excited about the new codex and the only thing I could say to him was "Don't get you hopes up". And sadly I turned up right, judging from the leak. I tried to stay positive,but in the end it started to smell too much like a Stockholm Syndrome.
I understand where it comes from, stop making presumptions. But coming onto the forums to vent frustrations helps nobody and nothing. Don't just talk about the issues, do something about them. If you don't like the prices, buy used, buy from 3rd parties. If you don't like their business practices, stop supporting them. I say if you don't like it move on because really, it's either that or you sit here and vent, your choice.
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
catharsis
kəˈθɑːsɪs/
noun
1.
the process of releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.
"music is a means of catharsis for them"
synonyms: purging, purgation, purification, cleansing, release, relief, emotional release, freeing, deliverance, exorcism, ridding; More
antonyms: repression
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
MWHistorian wrote: OK, assuming the next report is bad. (which it might not be) what could GW do to turn it around?
It would have to lower prices or make more entry level stuff for beginners and people on a budget.
It would have to restart communication with the player base that they have destroyed. This will help restore good will and ease the growing frustrations of a player base that feels ignored and despised. (A few statements by GW employees and Kirby himself haven't helped.)
It would have to repair its relationship with independent stores.
That would be a start but it would go a long way, I think.
Then there's the issues with poor external and internal codex balance. Some units are grossly OP and some are ridiculously useless. That creates less variety in armies and frustration for new players when they find out their shiny new toys don't work. This could lead them to quit. Thus creating yet another barrier to entry.
Lately the codex's have gained a reputation for being uninspired and boring. Many changes seem arbitrary and random and the fluff is just recycled from the previous codex. All with a high price tag. This lowers the value for some players. A new codex is supposed to be exciting and bring a new burst of energy from the player base. After reading the nid, Guard and now the Ork dex threads, I see a whole lot of confusion and apathy.
Other side games like Blood Bowl and Necromunda. This fills the gap for people that like GW but don't have the time, money or patience for building a 2000 pt army. (But then other companies have filled these niches so I'm not sure how good that approach would be.)
Dropping prices would only increase the downward spiral. Making stuff for new players to get into it is a better idea.
Balancing codex issues honestly is nowhere near as important to turn things around as players will play what they feel like playing either way and the "op" stuff is expensive so players will buy it. As for destroying communication with the player base, that is nothing more than opinion, as you have seen, there are those who are fine with the game as is, otherwise they wouldn't keep buying and playing. They may have pissed off some of the older players and maybe some trust issues could be resolved, but this honestly won't turn their profit margin up. They would need new players to get involved rather than having the same people buy a few models here and there.
The fluff is also not an issue when determining profit, only what lore players want out of the game, improvements could be done to this.
As for a new codex ""supposed" to be exciting" that is just an opinion. It really is nothing more than a rules update, what other games would call a patch to fix what is broken and bring things up to par. This brings some excitement to some people but isn't a necessity, the excitement part I mean.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
azreal13 wrote: catharsis
kəˈθɑːsɪs/
noun
1.
the process of releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.
"music is a means of catharsis for them"
synonyms: purging, purgation, purification, cleansing, release, relief, emotional release, freeing, deliverance, exorcism, ridding; More
antonyms: repression
Oh I know what it is. Whining and complaining is also a release of emotion and purging as well. But again, how is that helping the problem? People are free to complain and vent, but offer solutions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/21 18:08:29
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
No, destroying communication with the player base isn't opinion. They've shut down almost all ways to communicate with them and all they have left is the White Dwarf that less and less people are buying.
They shut down their forums. Shut down their FB page. Shut down fan sites that talked about them. Even shut down the artists FB page. They've closed themselves off from the world.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
As for destroying communication with the player base, that is nothing more than opinion.
No that is a fact. They closed their official forums and almost completely retreated from social media (Despite several of their offshoots pages (Black Library and Forge World) being very well run with a surprising lack of venom from fans due to the open and engaging way they operated their pages.)
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
azreal13 wrote: catharsis
kəˈθɑːsɪs/
noun
1.
the process of releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.
"music is a means of catharsis for them"
synonyms: purging, purgation, purification, cleansing, release, relief, emotional release, freeing, deliverance, exorcism, ridding; More
antonyms: repression
Oh I know what it is. Whining and complaining is also a release of emotion and purging as well. But again, how is that helping the problem? People are free to complain and vent, but offer solutions.
It's not fething whining, stop it.
So if you know what it is, why are you having such a hard time grasping why people are doing it?
GW have retreated from the community to the point where there is no channel that these thoughts, emotions and ideas can be expressed in a manner where they might be able to actually affect any sort of change, so what else is there but to express frustration amongst other people who feel similarly in the hope of achieving an element of catharsis?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
As for destroying communication with the player base, that is nothing more than opinion.
No that is a fact. They closed their official forums and almost completely retreated from social media (Despite several of their offshoots pages (Black Library and Forge World) being very well run with a surprising lack of venom from fans due to the open and engaging way they operated their pages.)
What I was referring to, reestablishing communication with the player base is an option. It isn't something that will turn the company around from a financial perspective.
So if you know what it is, why are you having such a hard time grasping why people are doing it?
GW have retreated from the community to the point where there is no channel that these thoughts, emotions and ideas can be expressed in a manner where they might be able to actually affect any sort of change, so what else is there but to express frustration amongst other people who feel similarly in the hope of achieving an element of catharsis?
We'll agree to disagree on the bolded point, I have too many people in agreement on this when I bring this up with both other players and those who don't even play.
I don't have a hard time grasping why people are doing it, I just want them to be productive while they do it. Venting for the sake venting is pointless imo as again, it doesn't serve to help alleviate any problems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/21 18:17:05
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
They do charge quite a bit but the idea that they are obligated to charge a lesser amount doesn't make any sense. It's like saying Mercedes should charge less so I can afford one.
Comparison is inadequate. Mercedes puts a lot of effort into new car designs, manages a huge team of (quality!) employees and produces products at a very high quality level. Even if we, for a second, look over the fact that the two industries are vastly different, there's the huge difference to GW: quality. GW simply asks for a premium yet fails to deliver a premium. This isn't completely subjective either. Poor editing, poor rules-writing, no (!) or extremely late reaction to glaring problems, rushed products - etc. It's different for models as those usually come at a good quality and therefore a higher-than-usual price is appropriate. The rules, however, are extremely lacking.
You missed the context of the Mercedes comparison. It was strictly based on people being able to afford it.
GW delivers on everything required. Everything else is subjective. That is the point I am trying to get across.
How about we discuss a single appalling rule that is ruining the game? If it plays fine for me and not for you then it is not broken it is subjective.
Thereis a difference between disliking a part of the game and it actually not working.
Precisely. And nobody claimed that it isn't actually working. People complain about a lack of quality - which is there, as much as some might want to wish it away.
Subjective. See question above.
Can you help me to see what part of the game is just a rough guideline?
You made the claim in your previous posts...
True my mistake.
But as I have said in other posts,
The guidelines are good. as they allow flexibility The rules that need to be specific are.
The guidelines are good. as they allow flexibility The rules that need to be specific are.
The flexibility allows us to solve our own problems. Which some of us have done, whereas others feel the need to have everything be explicitly written, thus taking away a lot of what GW was working towards when they put this concept into the game.
There's a section on proposed rules on this forum and people daily come up with great ideas and its amazing, even more so as GW has allowed us to do this.
They supply the product and guidelines to use the product, from there it is entirely up to us.
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Personally my main issue is not the outright "you're not allowed to like GW blah blah blah, GW sucks ass" thing that others are saying on this thread
That's a good thing, having an issue with something that doesn't exist would be peculiar.
I was actually referring to people saying that they had an issue to that, not to the people giving the person those issues etc.
Lobomalo wrote: I understand where it comes from, stop making presumptions. But coming onto the forums to vent frustrations helps nobody and nothing. Don't just talk about the issues, do something about them. If you don't like the prices, buy used, buy from 3rd parties. If you don't like their business practices, stop supporting them. I say if you don't like it move on because really, it's either that or you sit here and vent, your choice.
Discussing the issues on a forum is part of the process of doing something. GW may have shut itself off from communication with consumers, it doesn't stop consumers communicating with other consumers to talk about it.
I don't know about you, but when I get frakked over by a business, I don't just take my business elsewhere, I tell me friends not to go there as well and just for the fun of it I'll talk about how they frakked me over and what they should have done instead.
I also like the fact that the anti-GW complaints creates a large volume of reasons as to WHY people aren't buying anymore, so if GW or indeed any company that wants to compete with GW can read what not to do.
Also, people aren't just sitting here and venting, I'm sure most of the people with complaints are still enjoying the hobby and quite possibly still enjoying certain aspects of 40k while complaining about it.
All that said, why don't you just "move on" yourself? You've spent as much time here complaining about people being negative as people have spent being negative. You do have the option of just ignoring the comments or even just not entering the thread in the first place.
Lobomalo wrote: I understand where it comes from, stop making presumptions. But coming onto the forums to vent frustrations helps nobody and nothing. Don't just talk about the issues, do something about them. If you don't like the prices, buy used, buy from 3rd parties. If you don't like their business practices, stop supporting them. I say if you don't like it move on because really, it's either that or you sit here and vent, your choice.
Discussing the issues on a forum is part of the process of doing something. GW may have shut itself off from communication with consumers, it doesn't stop consumers communicating with other consumers to talk about it.
I don't know about you, but when I get frakked over by a business, I don't just take my business elsewhere, I tell me friends not to go there as well and just for the fun of it I'll talk about how they frakked me over and what they should have done instead.
I also like the fact that the anti-GW complaints creates a large volume of reasons as to WHY people aren't buying anymore, so if GW or indeed any company that wants to compete with GW can read what not to do.
Also, people aren't just sitting here and venting, I'm sure most of the people with complaints are still enjoying the hobby and quite possibly still enjoying certain aspects of 40k while complaining about it.
All that said, why don't you just "move on" yourself? You've spent as much time here complaining about people being negative as people have spent being negative. You do have the option of just ignoring the comments or even just not entering the thread in the first place.
I have, I am currently engaging in discussion right now, ignored those who have done nothing but complain and spam.
They probably are enjoying the hobby, but there are those in the thread who have admitted to quitting the game which makes their participation in a 40k discussion interesting. And I haven't complained at all actually. I have asked them to do something besides complaining as its pointless. I have asked them to provide solutions.
You won't find a single complaint post from me, merely observations, opinions and solutions. To some these would be called my arrogant, condescending and rude posts.
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
All that said, why don't you just "move on" yourself? You've spent as much time here complaining about people being negative as people have spent being negative. You do have the option of just ignoring the comments or even just not entering the thread in the first place.
Picture's worth 1000 words....
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
All that said, why don't you just "move on" yourself? You've spent as much time here complaining about people being negative as people have spent being negative. You do have the option of just ignoring the comments or even just not entering the thread in the first place.
Picture's worth 1000 words....
Your signature, doesn't flow with your actions across the forums, just an FYI.
Again, show me one complaint I made and I'll retract everything I've said.
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
Then I think you've misunderstood my signature, and you've definitely misunderstood my intent behind the pic if you think I'm accusing you of complaining about anything
I'm also interested how you feel comfortable commenting on my actions in 5k+ posts over 3 years when you've been here barely a week.
It's almost like you've been here before....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/21 18:46:05
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
azreal13 wrote: Then I think you've misunderstood my signature, and you've definitely misunderstood my intent behind the pic if you think I'm accusing you of complaining about anything
I'm also interested how you feel comfortable commenting on my actions in 5k+ posts over 3 years when you've been here barely a week.
It's almost like you've been here before....
Recent post history is more than enough tbh.
I may have misunderstood your pic, and if so then I apologize for that.
Your signature, I like it because it's true. Except you've shown to be more argumentative to those who disagree with you in your post history, especially in YMDC
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
What I was referring to, reestablishing communication with the player base is an option. It isn't something that will turn the company around from a financial perspective.
"Damn, our sales are way down, if only there was some way to ask customers why they've stopped buying our products, or foster some kind of relationship with them to increase their loyalty. Like...some kind of.. public forum, where they could give us feedback? Maybe our products are too cheap and our rules are too clear? We'll just have to assume thats what it is until some kind of mass communication is invented, increase prices and make more vauge, badly worded rules, that'll sort it out!"
What I was referring to, reestablishing communication with the player base is an option. It isn't something that will turn the company around from a financial perspective.
"Damn, our sales are way down, if only there was some way to ask customers why they've stopped buying our products, or foster some kind of relationship with them to increase their loyalty. Like...some kind of.. public forum, where they could give us feedback? Maybe our products are too cheap and our rules are too clear? We'll just have to assume thats what it is until some kind of mass communication is invented, increase prices and make more vauge, badly worded rules, that'll sort it out!"
It's hilarious that people think GW isn't aware of the feelings of their player base, it truly is.
In the works
Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
In the works
