Orks in 7th Edition (2014-08-20: added Stormclaw and Hour of the Wolf)

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**mrfantastical**

More Dakka wrote:
Need some help with my Orky hammer unit. So I am moving away from Nob Bikers as support for my Warboss, and deciding between either normal bikers or DeffKopptaz.

Guts of the unit looks like this:

Warboss
PK, Lukky Stikk, Bike

Painboy
Bike

Then either another Warboss with the Headwompa, or a Big Mek with KFF bike and the Headwompa (basically the same price as eachother)

Both units have their advantages/disadvantages.

Warbike: cheap, plentiful, have more attacks than Kopptaz in assault, better cover save when jinking but limited firepower that just stacks with the already good anti infantry that Orks bring.

Can take a Nob to eat up to 2 S9 or lower attacks (or 1 Smash attack) in a challenge against things like MC's so that the Headwompa and S10 PK can do their thing.

DeffKopptaz: cheaper than bikes on a per-wound basis (15/wound vs 18/wound). Access to better firepower and a free upgrade (TL S8 or S8 AP2 for taking out transports or buildings so that the unit can assault the occupants). No dangerous terrain tests unless they actually land on the terrain.

Most importantly they provide Scout to the entire unit, which almost guarantees a T2 assault.

Lower jink save (4+ instead of 3+ for turboboosting).
No access to a Nob, so can't soak up those few extra wounds.

So there you go, what should I take? Also, should I go with a 2nd Warboss to take the Headwompa or a Big Mek with KFF and Headwompa? I mean, the real tradeoff is 1 attack and WS6 over WS5 (assuming the Lukky Stikk is still in play).

I've been running this with 15 bikes, PK Nob, 2 Warbosses, 1 Painboy , & Zhadsnark from forgeworld...... Stupidly good, and way better then the old Nob Biker list that I use to run.

19 scouting bikes is something you can't ignore.

**snot wads**

i agree with taking the bikes. over all they are muc h better than koptas

i have another simple question

.....i see the word "MANZ" alot in this forum what does it mean??

**paqman**

Mega Armored NobZ

**mrfantastical**

mrfantastical wrote:
2) 3 big meks, 1 Warboss, & 1 wierdboy master level 2
*1 big Mek must be warlord
*warlord gets "kunning but brutal" warlord trait
*d3 units get acute senses & outflank
*add +1 to sieze the initiative roll

Been seriously thinking about how to take advantage of this. I keep thinking about outflanking a big mek in MA attached to a Kustom mega Kannon Mek gun unit, or BW full of Burnas.

**fedorarogue**

Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective

**Awesomesauce**

fedorarogue wrote:
Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective

how are you out flanking that stuff?

**Perfect Organism**

Awesomesauce wrote:
fedorarogue wrote:
Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective

how are you out flanking that stuff?

By using the 'Mogrok's Bossboys' formation from Sanctus Reach: the Red Waaagh!

**sirlynchmob**

Perfect Organism wrote:
Awesomesauce wrote:
fedorarogue wrote:
Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective

how are you out flanking that stuff?

By using the 'Mogrok's Bossboys' formation from Sanctus Reach: the Red Waaagh!

how is the sanctus reach? would you recommend getting it? and could you give an overview of it please?

**Perfect Organism**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Perfect Organism wrote:
Awesomesauce wrote:
fedorarogue wrote:
Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective

how are you out flanking that stuff?

By using the 'Mogrok's Bossboys' formation from Sanctus Reach: the Red Waaagh!

how is the sanctus reach? would you recommend getting it? and could you give an overview of it please?

Haven't finished reading the background, but so far it seems OK. Not great, not terrible.

Lots of special missions which I doubt I will ever use.

Not many datasheets and the Imperial ones seem distinctly better than the Ork ones. Mogrok's Bossboys is literally the only really useful thing orks get.

Updated Planetstrike rules seem OK, not much different to the previous ones.

**koooaei**

More Dakka wrote:
Need some help with my Orky hammer unit. So I am moving away from Nob Bikers as support for my Warboss, and deciding between either normal bikers or DeffKopptaz.

Guts of the unit looks like this:

Warboss
PK, Lukky Stikk, Bike

Painboy
Bike

Then either another Warboss with the Headwompa, or a Big Mek with KFF bike and the Headwompa (basically the same price as eachother)

Both units have their advantages/disadvantages.

Warbike: cheap, plentiful, have more attacks than Kopptaz in assault, better cover save when jinking but limited firepower that just stacks with the already good anti infantry that Orks bring.

Can take a Nob to eat up to 2 S9 or lower attacks (or 1 Smash attack) in a challenge against things like MC's so that the Headwompa and S10 PK can do their thing.

DeffKopptaz: cheaper than bikes on a per-wound basis (15/wound vs 18/wound). Access to better firepower and a free upgrade (TL S8 or S8 AP2 for taking out transports or buildings so that the unit can assault the occupants). No dangerous terrain tests unless they actually land on the terrain.

Most importantly they provide Scout to the entire unit, which almost guarantees a T2 assault.

Lower jink save (4+ instead of 3+ for turboboosting).
No access to a Nob, so can't soak up those few extra wounds.

So there you go, what should I take? Also, should I go with a 2nd Warboss to take the Headwompa or a Big Mek with KFF and Headwompa? I mean, the real tradeoff is 1 attack and WS6 over WS5 (assuming the Lukky Stikk is still in play).

In 6 i've used 5 Deffkoptas + bikerboss to great effect. They were a cheaper, more mobile alternative to biker nobz. Don't underestimate that 12' scoutmove. They're even cheaper now and can have rokkits that don't cost you more! That's still a very strong and viable unit. And they'll work.

Note however that they're not supposed to act like biker boyz or nob bikers. They can't take that much punishment and don't hit that hard and they're more dependant on blos. But they're significantly more mobile with a reliable turn 2 charge since koptas can turbo-boost 24', you can create a further-spread chain from your warboss that goes 12' or 18'. And they come to be cheaper. That's important and makes them shine in the "one of the threats" role.

I'm not sure if adding a biker painboy is a good idea though. If you make them too expensive they probably won't work.

**RedNoak**

mrfantastical wrote:

I've been running this with 15 bikes, PK Nob, 2 Warbosses, 1 Painboy , & Zhadsnark from forgeworld...... Stupidly good, and way better then the old Nob Biker list that I use to run.

19 scouting bikes is something you can't ignore.

how did you make em scouting? am i missing something?

**NamelessBard**

Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

**RedNoak**

oh, didnt know about the scout thing... he has only a 6+ save though...

**Vineheart01**

Thats what makes him balanced. He has no invul (under previous rules he had no invul i mean) and has less armor for some odd reason even though he has a fancier bike. If he had the invul and 4+ armor on top of what else he has, he'd be a bit broken.

I dunno i kinda wanna stay away from the FW orks for abit because im seeing a TON of rule issues with either 7th edition conflicts or new ork dex conflicts. Such as the 1-3 Deffdredd troop units. The entry specifically says "Note they do not score" when in 7th they can....but codex trumps brb >.< even though im sure they can score now, it needs to be changed.
And a lot of warlord traits are pointless now because of the "everything scores" thing, so new traits are needed.

**NamelessBard**

Vineheart01 wrote:
I dunno i kinda wanna stay away from the FW orks for abit because im seeing a TON of rule issues with either 7th edition conflicts or new ork dex conflicts. Such as the 1-3 Deffdredd troop units. The entry specifically says "Note they do not score" when in 7th they can....but codex trumps brb >.< even though im sure they can score now, it needs to be changed.
And a lot of warlord traits are pointless now because of the "everything scores" thing, so new traits are needed.

You're talking about the Dread Mob list; he's not even allowed to be taken in that list.

His warlord trait lets bikes be troops as well - doesn't add in scoring. Troops makes them that, so the warlord trait works just fine.

The only minor thing is that he has the Waaagh rule and not 'ere we go which is rather different now. His own unit can't benefit from waaagh or 'ere we go but the other units can. He is written as a warboss, so I could see them adding 'ere we go and keeping Waaagh with him in it's current 7th ed form.

**felixcat**

Well, I justv acquited a Stompa and am thinking of running this

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605518.page#7028756

Now I have yet to use one. Anyone have any advice?

here are some pics of my current army

http://imgur.com/a/YRuMM

**Awesomesauce**

felixcat wrote:
Well, I justv acquited a Stompa

defense lawyer, eh? hopefully I won't ever have to play against you...

Now I have yet to use one. Anyone have any advice?

In a non-tournament setting, use the IA8 stompa builda if you can, the one in the book totally blows.

Also, put a squad of lootas in it, with 3 meks, and a big mek with Kff and fixer uppers, and he'll be one tough nugget to pinch.

Tactics: stay with the rest of you army and shoot everything at everything. when something gets too close, charge it in, as long as the target is not high strength AND CC oriented

Sorry for all the stupid edits, posting from my phone

**mrfantastical**

NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

**TompiQ**

mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

**mrfantastical**

TompiQ wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

That's awesome, but does he give skilled rider to the unit? Or is it one of those rules that if one has it, they all have it.

**NamelessBard**

TompiQ wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

Turbo boosting does have an effect on ork warbikes, it gives them +1 to their cover save if you turboboost. You do not get it automatically when jinking (you technically get this bonus even without jinking).

And skilled rider does apply to the unit as long as one model has it.

**TompiQ**

mrfantastical wrote:
TompiQ wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

That's awesome, but does he give skilled rider to the unit? Or is it one of those rules that if one has it, they all have it.

The latter. So he has to survive, but then again - he's a delivery method. Once you scout up and close in on round 1, you fire all you got if you had first turn you don't have to jink). Next turn, you jink before the enemy fires (even against tau - rather let them shoot you at low BS and snapshoot yourself than not jinking just to shoot more later. You want to assault next turn, so let them waste markerlights on ignore cover), and get ready to charge. If you feel you can take the overwatch (and you probably want to multi-assault) on a 3+ cover, you can split Zhad off to go do something else (Maybe TANK SHOCK 24", SINCE HE'S AWESOME AND CAN DO THAT). This lets you re-roll a charge dice on your other bikes, since he doesn't have 'ere we go.

My point with this was - Zhad is important to keep alive - but only crucial until you reach the enemy lines. Then you can detach your characters and go crazy if you want to.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NamelessBard wrote:
TompiQ wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

Turbo boosting does have an effect on ork warbikes, it gives them +1 to their cover save if you turboboost. You do not get it automatically when jinking (you technically get this bonus even without jinking).

And skilled rider does apply to the unit as long as one model has it.

haha, bummer, I totally missed that it's TB exclusive. I guess I could blame it on my main biker force being White Scars, but dang.

You'd still want to Turbo round one I suppose.

**Melevolence**

TompiQ wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

I believe Ork bikers get a +1 to their cover save when they turbo boost, in place of the 4+ cover they used to get by default. So, they normally get a 3+ jink if they boost, and with the skilled rider, they get a 2+ instead.

**TompiQ**

Melevolence wrote:
TompiQ wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

I believe Ork bikers get a +1 to their cover save when they turbo boost, in place of the 4+ cover they used to get by default. So, they normally get a 3+ jink if they boost, and with the skilled rider, they get a 2+ instead.

Aye, it's been stated in the posts above yours already - I got carried away and remembered the rule incorrectly.

**mrfantastical**

Melevolence wrote:
TompiQ wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

I believe Ork bikers get a +1 to their cover save when they turbo boost, in place of the 4+ cover they used to get by default. So, they normally get a 3+ jink if they boost, and with the skilled rider, they get a 2+ instead.

Wow, just wow. Or if you get night fighting turn 1 you get 2+ cover without jinking, this list just became my answer to IG, and maybe TAU & Eldar.

**TompiQ**

mrfantastical wrote:
Melevolence wrote:
TompiQ wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:
NamelessBard wrote:
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.

He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.

Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.

He's pretty good.

And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.

So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.

Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.

EDIT - Here's my 1K list with a Zhad star http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605485.page

I believe Ork bikers get a +1 to their cover save when they turbo boost, in place of the 4+ cover they used to get by default. So, they normally get a 3+ jink if they boost, and with the skilled rider, they get a 2+ instead.

Wow, just wow. Or if you get night fighting turn 1 you get 2+ cover without jinking, this list just became my answer to IG, and maybe TAU & Eldar.

1: Take Necron allies led by Imotekh the Stormlord.
2: ...
3: Profit.

**obsidiankatana**

Tau, IG, and Eldar all have easy access to ignore cover weaponry. I would not depend on it too heavily.

**TompiQ**

obsidiankatana wrote:
Tau, IG, and Eldar all have easy access to ignore cover weaponry. I would not depend on it too heavily.

Which is why a proper bike star should tote around the Mega Force Field, for those nasty Ap4 and below ignore cover shots. But yes, bikes are obviously vulnerable to ignore cover, which is why you krump those bits first.

**More Dakka**

Anyone else getting the feeling that normal Boyz aren't worth it in a list other than Green Tide?

For an Ork Warband detachment that doesn't get obsec 3 units of 10 grots is plenty to scrabble around getting objectives, meanwhile all the other slots are full of great units (tank bustaz, Manz, bikes, buggies, Kommandoz, Stormboys etc etc).

Normal Boyz couldn't get across the board in 6th and nothing much has changed in that department in 7th, why not just take the best of the best?

**Madcat87**

I think this is pretty much the case now.

I'm still struggling with the old philosophy of boys before toys but with the new codex and 7th ed making everything scoring I honestly think it's time to go toys before boys. At first I was thinking I'll just make my third troop choice a basic grot unit just to get the third HQ choice. Then I started thinking why not make all my troops grots, they'll just sit at the back capturing objectives where there isn't much conflict and I'll have a lot more points to spend on everything else.