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After having looked at the rules...

Ironically Scout is not conferable from Transports to embarked units as per the permissions game that people are playing at in this thread.

If a unit with this special rule is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, it confers the Scout special rule to the Transport (though a disembarkation cannot be performed as part of the redeployment).
Note that a Transport with this special rule does not lose it if a unit without this special rule is embarked upon it. Having scout also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Scouts that are kept as reserves.

Sidebar - Gives me an idea for Outflanking battlewagons.

Later in the same section it goes on to say that if a unit with Scouts (assuming they mean "unit with the Scout special rule" here ?) is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport (note: DEDICATED only), they may Outflank along with their transport.

Edit** It also has the same permissions under the Infiltrate special rule, but not Scout.

Now let's look at some things...

The rules do not give specific permission to units embarked in transports (of any kind) to redeploy with their transports during the Scout redeployment phase.
The rules also do not confer from vehicle TO embarked units. Only vice versa.

Looking at the arguement from the side of "you CAN charge," you will notice that the arguement is that the rules do not say that the unit embarked is redeploying as a part of the scout movement.

I would retaliate with, what lets you leave the unit embarked AND lets the vehicle move using the Scout redeployment?

Where is the permission that states a unit embarked in a vehicle with scout may redeploy along with their transport?

------

RAW would say that a unit can not even redeploy with its Scouting battlewagon.

It also seems to imply that units without Scout can not be deployed in reserve in order to Outflank either.

Let alone charge.

------

TL;DR

Units in battlewagons seemingly don't redeploy with their transports in the Scout redeployment phase, because it is not directly and specifically permitted in the RAW.

Since this is true, they certainly can't charge on the first turn if the vehicle moved, because I would argue that if you move a vehicle with the scout special rule with embarked units without scout, while unconferable and unable to disembark said unit during said Scout, that you are doing something RAW illegal, and likely are willing to forfeit the game.

Imo play the game safely, without rules lawyering. But if you must lawyer, please err on the side of caution and don't do some gak the book doesn't SPECIFICALLY say you CAN do.

The unit has not redeployed. They are in exactly the same deployment position they were before - embarked on the vehicle.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit has not redeployed. They are in exactly the same deployment position they were before - embarked on the vehicle.

See

Where is the permission that states a unit embarked in a vehicle with scout may redeploy along with their transport?

 Awfeel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit has not redeployed. They are in exactly the same deployment position they were before - embarked on the vehicle.

See

Where is the permission that states a unit embarked in a vehicle with scout may redeploy along with their transport?

I've put it in bold, as you missed it somehow

The unit has NOT redeployed. The unit is still deployed exactly where they were before - inside the vehicle.

Again: the unit has not redeployed. Thus there is no need for permission to redeploy them.

Or to put it another way, maybe clearer:

Unit A is in their transport.
They are deployed on the floor, next to a label that says "Transport A". They will be in the same place whether the Transport A is deployed on your side, Infiltrated, Scout re-deployed, or flying to another table

another way to look at this, in the waaagh ghaz supplement there is a formation that gives 5 battle wagons the scout special rule. it also then gives another specific special rule to that formation: know your limits. which prevents the passengers of the battle wagons from making an assault in the first turn if the wagons used their scout special rule.

there's nothing that prevents this in anyother situation. in a permissive rules set like 40k, the standard rules in the BRB give permission to assault turn one from a scouting assault vehicle. then there's other restrictive rules (know your limits) that prevent it.

devils advocate.

You missed the last page, which is what re-opened this thread:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Some new rules that should hopefully put an end to this debate:

The New Ork Supplement (Waaagh! Ghazghkull) has a Formation of Battlewagons that all have the Scout rule.

This Formation has the Following Special Rule:

Know Yer Limitz wrote:Infantry units that begin the game embarked upon a Battlewagon from this Formation cannot charge on the first turn if their Battlewagon made a Scout redeployment

This rule would not be needed if the Scout restriction applied to units inside a transport that made a Scout redeplyment.

Or it is a reminder.

GW adds pointless reminders all the time, such as with Spore Mines explosions (sentence caps the Strength at 10, but the highest achievable is 9). Another example would be Drop Pod Assault, which forbids charging the turn you arrive.

True there are often rules like that. But those are part of another rule, this is a complete Special Rule with no other function.
I've not seen a "reminder rule" that's a completely seperate rule it'self. I could be wrong.
Just thought it was worth mentioning.

If a unit without Deep Strike comes down in a Drop Pod, they still "arrive via deep strike"

If a unit without Outflank comes in on an outflanking vehicle, they still 'arrive via outflank'

If a unit without scout moves forward in a scouting vehicle, they still 'deploy via scouting'

It sure seems to follow...

Well the wording for Deep Striking, Infiltrate and outflanking are clear about "Dedicated Transports". Scout, not so much

Never mind, thought I was on the last page when I responded. Nothing new to add

It's a NO. If you have scouted with a unit embarked or not they cannot assault turn one. Unless of course you go second in the first turn. Stop splitting hairs. If you scout or move with a unit embarked on a transport they are considered moving or scouting just as the vehicle.

Under "Deployment"

"Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity."

When the Transport is "redeployed" via scout, the unit must also be "redeployed" because you don't deploy the unit then vehicle or a vehicle simultaneous with the unit. The vehicle must be deployed legally, then the unit is deployed. As the vehicle is "redeployed" the unit must also be "redeployed" inside of the legally deployed Transport.

Further, as has been cited previously, there is a restriction that the unit may not "disembark" or "embark" as "part" of this "redeployment". Even if you find there is a contradiction in this language as to whether or not the unit is deployed simultaneously with the Transport, there is support that the unit has redeployed. The unit is part of the redeployment. If it is part of redeployment, it has redeployed. If Princess Leia is part of the Rebel Alliance, she is a Rebel.

Angelic wrote:
Under "Deployment"

"Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity."

When the Transport is "redeployed" via scout, the unit must also be "redeployed" because you don't deploy the unit then vehicle or a vehicle simultaneous with the unit. The vehicle must be deployed legally, then the unit is deployed. As the vehicle is "redeployed" the unit must also be "redeployed" inside of the legally deployed Transport.

Really? Have you cited a rule saying that? I don't see one - perhaps you forgot to paste it?
The vehicle has been redeployed. The unit was deployed inside and wasn't redeployed out of it - in fact it's forbidden from doing so.

Further, as has been cited previously, there is a restriction that the unit may not "disembark" or "embark" as "part" of this "redeployment". Even if you find there is a contradiction in this language as to whether or not the unit is deployed simultaneously with the Transport, there is support that the unit has redeployed. The unit is part of the redeployment. If it is part of redeployment, it has redeployed. If Princess Leia is part of the Rebel Alliance, she is a Rebel.

Perhaps you should read the thread; this has been debunked already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
It's a NO. If you have scouted with a unit embarked or not they cannot assault turn one. Unless of course you go second in the first turn. Stop splitting hairs. If you scout or move with a unit embarked on a transport they are considered moving or scouting just as the vehicle.

Citation required. Also, the underlined is completely false.

Lungpickle wrote:
It's a NO. If you have scouted with a unit embarked or not they cannot assault turn one. Unless of course you go second in the first turn. Stop splitting hairs. If you scout or move with a unit embarked on a transport they are considered moving or scouting just as the vehicle.

Care to cite a rule, as per the tenets?

You may also want to brush up on 7th and / or read the thread, as "go second" is no help any longer

I think people may do well to understand that transports rules are highly abstract.
For eg, a unit that embarks is removed from the table.
Note, the unit is removed (not just the models) and yet, that unit is still "in play" and it can be measured to "on the table."
Ie, how far away is that unit that is not on the table, in the transport, from point a = 24".

kambien wrote:

yes dt has the permission to be outside the deployment zone , but does the unit have permission to be outside the deployment zone since they are not using the scout rule ?

rigeld2 wrote:
They are not outside their deployment zone.
They're embarked in their DT.

Hang on, let me get this straight, a unit in a transport, that redeployed (the transport, that is) out of its deployment zone, is still in its deployment zone because it was deployed within its deployment zone and was never redeployed out of it?

The transported unit, that is not on the table, but can be measured to, thus proving its location in table top terms, that can demonstrably be proven by this mechanism, to be outside its deployment zone?

The point he was making is that WHERE they deployed has remained exactly the same - the vehicle. The position of the vehicle has changed, however the deployment location "embarked" is constant.

That's not what he said ...

rigeld2 wrote:
They are not outside their deployment zone.

The point being, wherever they deployed (as proven both by where the transport was originally deployed and by being able to measure to the unit at that point)
by the transport being redeployed outside its dz, the (infantry) unit can no-longer be in its deployment zone.

The demonstrable location of the transported unit has changed from within its dz, to outside.

The unit is no-longer where it was deployed, this has been achieved by a re-deployment of which it was clearly a part.

No, it was deployed within the vehicle. That has not altered. That is demonstrably true. Youre taking the sentence out of context there - they are nto outside their deployment zone, theyre where they have always been - off the table, embarked in a vehicle.

They do not need permission to be oustide their deployment zone, as they are embarked legally inside a transport vehicle

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Youre taking the sentence out of context there - they are nto outside their deployment zone, theyre where they have always been - off the table, embarked in a vehicle.

For clarity, then ...

Infantry deploys in a transport legally (in its dz) then the vehicle is redeployed outside that dz.
According to you, the passengers are not outside their dz, so where are they?
"off the table, embarked in a vehicle" is clearly not sufficient.

Whichever "In" or "out" answer that you are looking for would apply to both. Either they are "in" because being embarked is withing their Deployment zone: on the transport.
Or they are "out": they are not on the table so even if your transport is in standard deployment zone, they are still "out" as they are not on the table.

 fuusa wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Youre taking the sentence out of context there - they are nto outside their deployment zone, theyre where they have always been - off the table, embarked in a vehicle.

For clarity, then ...

Infantry deploys in a transport legally (in its dz) then the vehicle is redeployed outside that dz.
According to you, the passengers are not outside their dz, so where are they?
"off the table, embarked in a vehicle" is clearly not sufficient.

I've never said that. Be much much more precise when debating, please

I have stated WHERE they have deplkoyed - the vehicle - has not changed.

the position of the vehicle may have changed. That has absolutely no bearing on the unit inside.

This is yet another example of why I like whfb more than 40k. People trying to win with Easter eggs instead of tactics.

 fuusa wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
They are not outside their deployment zone.
They're embarked in their DT.

Hang on, let me get this straight, a unit in a transport, that redeployed (the transport, that is) out of its deployment zone, is still in its deployment zone because it was deployed within its deployment zone and was never redeployed out of it?

The transported unit, that is not on the table, but can be measured to, thus proving its location in table top terms, that can demonstrably be proven by this mechanism, to be outside its deployment zone?

No, the unit did not deploy in its deployment zone. It deployed inside a transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 quickfuze wrote:
This is yet another example of why I like whfb more than 40k. People trying to win with Easter eggs instead of tactics.

Thanks for adding so much to the discussion!
People argue rulings one way but don't always play that way. Thanks for assuming otherwise though!

This is the rules query forum. If people want to discuss relative merits of Fantasy and 40K, the general discussion forum is the best place.

rigeld2 wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Under "Deployment"

"Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity."

When the Transport is "redeployed" via scout, the unit must also be "redeployed" because you don't deploy the unit then vehicle or a vehicle simultaneous with the unit. The vehicle must be deployed legally, then the unit is deployed. As the vehicle is "redeployed" the unit must also be "redeployed" inside of the legally deployed Transport.

Really? Have you cited a rule saying that? I don't see one - perhaps you forgot to paste it?
The vehicle has been redeployed. The unit was deployed inside and wasn't redeployed out of it - in fact it's forbidden from doing so.

But it has been redeployed in it. If a Transport hasn't been deployed, the unit can't be deployed in it. It isn't movement. You could remove it entirely from the tabletop. What's the status of the unit in that case? Whether or not the unit's position has changed is irrelevant. The prohibition on charges doesn't require that the unit change position, only that it make a Scout redeployment. You could declare that your Transport is making a Scout redeployment and leave it in the exact same position, thereby denying the first turn. Utterly ridiculous to do, but within the rules. If it wasn't deployed or redeployed, then a prohibition on disembark/embark would be totally unnecessary if your allegations that they aren't redeploying were correct. Absent redeployment, nothing would give them permission to change their deployment.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
- they are nto outside their deployment zone, theyre where they have always been - off the table, embarked in a vehicle.

 fuusa wrote:
[
According to you, the passengers are not outside their dz, so where are they?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

I've never said that. Be much much more precise when debating, please

I have stated WHERE they have deplkoyed - the vehicle - has not changed.

the position of the vehicle may have changed. That has absolutely no bearing on the unit inside.

rigeld2 wrote:

No, the unit did not deploy in its deployment zone. It deployed inside a transport.

So, the position seems to be that despite the ability to measure to/from an embarked unit and a dz boundary and thusly prove that it is within/without its dz
the position a unit occupies in a transport, even though the transport is in the dz, that location is not in the dz.

Is that what you are saying?

Angelic wrote:
But it has been redeployed in it.

Statement without rules support - assumption.

If a Transport hasn't been deployed, the unit can't be deployed in it.

Incorrect - Transports can be in Reserves with units deployed in them.

Whether or not the unit's position has changed is irrelevant.

Except your side is trying to make it relevant...

The prohibition on charges doesn't require that the unit change position, only that it make a Scout redeployment. You could declare that your Transport is making a Scout redeployment and leave it in the exact same position, thereby denying the first turn. Utterly ridiculous to do, but within the rules. If it wasn't deployed or redeployed, then a prohibition on disembark/embark would be totally unnecessary if your allegations that they aren't redeploying were correct. Absent redeployment, nothing would give them permission to change their deployment.

And the embarked unit is not changing their deployment - in fact they're forbidden from doing so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

the position of the vehicle may have changed. That has absolutely no bearing on the unit inside.

This is what we need the rules quote for.

 fuusa wrote:
So, the position seems to be that despite the ability to measure to/from an embarked unit and a dz boundary and thusly prove that it is within/without its dz
the position a unit occupies in a transport, even though the transport is in the dz, that location is not in the dz.

Is that what you are saying?

I'm saying that it's absolutely irrelevant what you can measure to. The unit has made a legal deployment by embarking. Agreed? The Transport legally scout redeploys. Agreed? The embarked unit has not redeployed - after all, they're still embarked. Agreed?

This is like saying that a Transport can only ever move 6" with a Tac squad inside because Infantry are limited to 6" of movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

the position of the vehicle may have changed. That has absolutely no bearing on the unit inside.

This is what we need the rules quote for.

It's been provided. Absent a rule saying that the embarked unit has redeployed, it hasn't. No one has provided such a rule, so the embarked unit hasn't redeployed.

Here's two interesting tidbits.

Page 130, under deployment zones. "We've found that 12" away from the center line works best; this ensures that armies will start at least 24" apart, which makes first turn charges hard to achieve while still giving you enough space on a typical table to deploy your army".

Ok, so GW flat out said that 1st turn charges are ok, but they want them hard to do.

Page 132: Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity.
Where's permission to be deployed outside your DZ?

I see permission for the vehicle to be their, but not the embarked unit.