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I'm not sure those Maelstrom missions will be very good tournament material tbh... There seems to be major balance problems around the whole concept.

How comfortable are you at moving 300+ models a turn?

Cause then I've got the army for you!

Thanks to the new Invisibility...death star lists are still going to be around.

I think Necrons will only be top tier until their new codex drops and then I fully expect points increases in their flyers and nerfs to wraiths (because that's what everyone bought in 6e). They will still be in a good place because AV13 obsc spam will still be a thing...at least until Space Wolves get updated.

So far all the Astra Miltarum parking lot lists are losing badly. Expect a return to Valkyrie/Vendetta spam.

DaKrumpa wrote:
How comfortable are you at moving 300+ models a turn?

Cause then I've got the army for you!

Definitely the kind of armies you'd implement movement trays in 40K for..

FYI, Jetseer did not get nerfed at all...
Now they actually get the 2+ cover save without the baron thanks to jink being 4+ by default and their default power being shrouded.
It's not hard for them to get off powers either they can safely through as many dice as they want a power and you'll never be able to stop it. even daemon factory with 30 dice reliably can realistically shut down 6 successes.
Jinking doesn't hurt Jetseer, they don't shoot anyway.
Jetseer is going to be really tough to beat this edition, just like last edition.

SeerStar without a baron is better than with a baron, but the baron's main use was the 36 shot average 2++ and the Hit and Run, not the 2+ cover save

All things being equal, Witchfire has been nerfed, the damage output of the SeerStar is going to drop another notch and might well land it into not-that-competitive-anymore territory.

why is the seerstar better without baron? legitimate question.

[url]

morgoth wrote:

Jink is worse now: Eldar and Tau will be weaker than they were at the end of 6th.

You keep saying this, but I think you don't understand what the word "worse" actually means.

Aside from lack of a legitimate psychic threat, AM is pretty nasty. Not to mention you can square off against all those cover-reliant armies and just laugh at them.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Aside from lack of a legitimate psychic threat, AM is pretty nasty. Not to mention you can square off against all those cover-reliant armies and just laugh at them.

The only thing they gained is Wyverns, cheaper Russes and psykers, and, arguably, orders. How are they better?

Artillery: gone.
Useful SCs: gone.
Vendettas: Nerfed to hell.
Chimeras: Nerfed.



Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
The only thing they gained is Wyverns, cheaper Russes and psykers, and, arguably, orders. How are they better?

Artillery: gone.
Useful SCs: gone.
Vendettas: Nerfed to hell.
Chimeras: Nerfed.



Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.

What?

Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.

So yeah, very little that they lost.

While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.

If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
The only thing they gained is Wyverns, cheaper Russes and psykers, and, arguably, orders. How are they better?

Artillery: gone.
Useful SCs: gone.
Vendettas: Nerfed to hell.
Chimeras: Nerfed.



Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.

What?

Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.

So yeah, very little that they lost.

While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.

If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.

Quoted for Truth.

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
The only thing they gained is Wyverns, cheaper Russes and psykers, and, arguably, orders. How are they better?

Artillery: gone.
Useful SCs: gone.
Vendettas: Nerfed to hell.
Chimeras: Nerfed.

Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.

What?

Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.

So yeah, very little that they lost.

While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.

If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.

Ailaros will complain if guard is nerfed and I don't see him complaining.

Artillery: Wyverns are better than 5th ed artillery. Forge world heavy artillery carriages and rapier laser destroyers can receive ignore cover orders.
Useful SCs: Yarrik is the most useful SC and he is 40 points cheaper. A lot of other SC are currently MIA but may appear in a dateslate.
Vendettas: Points adjusted to being a flyer instead of a 5th ed skimmer. Vultures are still underpriced. 3 Rapier laser destroyers with extra crew cost 3 points more than a vendetta, have the same # of TL shots, 6 T3 5+ save wounds, and 6 T7 5+ save wounds. As stated before they can receive orders to ignore cover and come stock with ordinance for armor pen. If you're worried about anti air Sabers are still there and can recieve orders for tank hunters or ignore cover.
Chimeras: Lost 3 fire points but gained scoring and objective secured.

Guard is mean as hell in 7th ed.

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
The only thing they gained is Wyverns, cheaper Russes and psykers, and, arguably, orders. How are they better?

Artillery: gone.
Useful SCs: gone.
Vendettas: Nerfed to hell.
Chimeras: Nerfed.



Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.

What?

Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.

So yeah, very little that they lost.

While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.

If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.

Every Dedicated Transport for Troops now scores. The Chimera is 10 points more expensive than it was, and scores just like a Rhino scores. If the bar gets lowered for everybody, there's no net gain.

Vendettas aren't worth taking anymore hands-down. Lascannons only blow up vehicles on a 6. They're no longer the best AT weapons out there. Hull pointing vehicles down is far more reliable.

People can claim all day that the Wyvern is amazing. The problem is that nobody knows how the damn thing actually works (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600448.page). If you're rerolling everything, they're great. If you're only rerolling the first dice, they're meh.

Yarrick, Priests and Commissars all go with foot IG, which you bemoaned all of 6th edition. ALL of 6th edition. Are you now saying that foot IG is good? Because that's a pretty sharp 180 from what you have been saying for the past two years.



If you look at it in terms of 6th edition, the losses weren't huge. In terms of IG's 5th edition power, they're a shell. The massive Hydra nerf was pretty crippling. The Hydra was further nerfed in this edition to the point that I actually cut the barrels off of my FW Hydras and use them as Wyverns. Seriously.




Bickering about it is pointless. When we start seeing GTs won by IG players, I'll concede that you're correct and IG got a boost. Until then, I'm simply not seeing it.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
The only thing they gained is Wyverns, cheaper Russes and psykers, and, arguably, orders. How are they better?

Artillery: gone.
Useful SCs: gone.
Vendettas: Nerfed to hell.
Chimeras: Nerfed.



Kinda failing to see how they're better off than they were before...the main issue is that they have very very poor mobility in an edition that rewards mobility.

What?

Chimeras lost a fire port, but gained lasguns and SCORE. Vendettas got a necessary points increase, but they can SCORE. There are still useful SCs, just not as many, and what do you even mean by artillery going away? The basilisk is still around and the colossus and griffon got merged into the wyvern. Only medusas (which weren't that great anyways) were lost.

So yeah, very little that they lost.

While they gained fearless priests, and extra psykers, and better commissars, and tank HQs, and platoon stormies, and cheaper practically everything. You say "cheaper russes" like a 40% points drop in your heavy support choices is nothing.

If you're failing to see how they're better, you've got to be focusing pretty hard on just the stuff that got a little worse and deliberately ignoring everything that got better.

Every Dedicated Transport for Troops now scores. The Chimera is 10 points more expensive than it was, and scores just like a Rhino scores. If the bar gets lowered for everybody, there's no net gain.

Vendettas aren't worth taking anymore hands-down. Lascannons only blow up vehicles on a 6. They're no longer the best AT weapons out there. Hull pointing vehicles down is far more reliable.

People can claim all day that the Wyvern is amazing. The problem is that nobody knows how the damn thing actually works (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600448.page). If you're rerolling everything, they're great. If you're only rerolling the first dice, they're meh.

Yarrick, Priests and Commissars all go with foot IG, which you bemoaned all of 6th edition. ALL of 6th edition. Are you now saying that foot IG is good? Because that's a pretty sharp 180 from what you have been saying for the past two years.



If you look at it in terms of 6th edition, the losses weren't huge. In terms of IG's 5th edition power, they're a shell. The massive Hydra nerf was pretty crippling. The Hydra was further nerfed in this edition to the point that I actually cut the barrels off of my FW Hydras and use them as Wyverns. Seriously.




Bickering about it is pointless. When we start seeing GTs won by IG players, I'll concede that you're correct and IG got a boost. Until then, I'm simply not seeing it.

I pretty much always see 1 or 2 IG players in the top 10 of west coast GTs.

Rerolls on multiple barrage should get FAQ'd soon. I don't know any TO that would go with the asshat idea that they don't get rerolls.

Forget about Hydras and Vendettas. Objective secured sabers are far better in 7th edition.

Yarrick and priests are beasts when attaching themselves to artillery. 7th edition orders insanely powerful on heavy artillery with earth shakers or medusa. Rapiers also go nuts with ignore cover. Their main weakness is ld 7 which can be negated with a 25 point priest or Yarrick's 12" bubble. Yarrick also gets 2 orders per turn.

Guard are good at killing mech to objective secured Rhinos works out for us.

I think we will continue to see Guard perform well at most GTs.

I think Necrons got the biggest boost out of this edition probably.

morgoth wrote:
Shuppet, no I don't wonder at all.
Most smart people have left the room ages ago because only a fool would think reason can have any impact on a mind that is hell bent on ignoring logic.

Dat Irony

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Bickering about it is pointless. When we start seeing GTs won by IG players, I'll concede that you're correct and IG got a boost.

KK so discussing the logic of the changes is just pointless bickering, and unless they are the top dog WINNING gt's, then they can't have possibly gotten any stronger.




Just so you know, they don't have to be knocking down Eldar to have gotten better. AM is a badass army atm.


Definitely at the good level of balance, their own unique strong level of playstyle, that isn't stupid OP. It's crazy how GW achieved this with SM, derped it for Nids, achieved this with AM, and derped it for Orks. Space Wolves are meant to be next and DE after, if the pattern continues, the IoM army will get a good solid dex and the Xenos will just get a new badly balanced Mech and have all their old overcosted unplayable crap like Mandrakes left as is.

And I'm not even being bias here, I want my Space Wolve's to get a good SM/AM balanced level dex. Would just be nice if my DE got one too :(

Eldar have swooping hawks...most expensive, least firepower

With Haywire, Deep Strike no scatter ... I think the Hawks are definitely not as bad as other units in 40K or even the Eldar Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zachwho wrote:
why is the seerstar better without baron? legitimate question.

The baron cannot turbo-boost 48", he slows down the SeerStar a great deal.
On the other hand, a SeerStar without baron only has cover and 4++ invul, now maybe 3++ invul with daemonology, which could maybe possibly create a new Star variant that has more mobility and less invul. But I doubt that.
Either way, without the baron, the star lacks hit and run and that's a big issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
[url]

morgoth wrote:

Jink is worse now: Eldar and Tau will be weaker than they were at the end of 6th.

You keep saying this, but I think you don't understand what the word "worse" actually means.

I think you need to read my topic on the Jink nerf for Shooting Skimmers.
Or the BRB.

Serpent is a worse gunboat, but more survivable and OS. Overall buff, but quite different.

Wraithknight is an MC, so would be slightly worse, but at s10, not really changed.

Seer Star was nerfed:
Eldar cannot get 40 dice.

With 2 Jetseers, they max out at 17, and that requires all 10 Locks, and a Harlie Shadowseer. Harlies are bad right now. They make Banshees look good. And Seer Council usually ran 6 Locks in 6th. In 7th, each additional ML has a diminishing return (down to 50%). And each Lock has a diminishing return, as they cannot use the same powers. The council can handle one duplicate, but once you have two, one can't do anything even if you have the dice.

Most Seer Councils are at +12 dice. Assuming they maximize their odds of getting both Fortune and Invis, they have about a 1/4 chance of both. Assuming they get both, and roll a 6 for charges, if they 6 dice both (to reliably get both off), they have 6 dice left. And they risk Perils (They can burn a die to soak a wound, the most likely event, but have absolutely no way to mitigate losing a power or being sucked into the Warp).

With those remaining 6 dice, they'll need 3 just to get good odds of getting Shouting. And/or 3 to get good odds of Protect going off. Or to twinlink their shooting. Or any other wc 1 power. Or they can throw all 6 at wc2 (to twinlink their shooting and melee).

That means the Seer Council, for all their points, best case, has Protect, Invis, 2+ cover, 2+ armor. Or protect, Invis, and twin linked everything. But nothing more.

Now, in 6th, they could do some damage in melee, and the massed s9 ap- shooting was quite nice. But what really won games was splitting apart to contest objectives. The melee is mostly unchanged (at ap-, though, they're less likely to pop tanks without hullpointing them). The shooting took a huge nerf from jink. Their powers are now not going to all be attempted Most won't be if you really want specific powers to go off. Perils are now dangerous. Their favorite Jetseer discipline got nerfed hard. And while they can score now, they can't deny troops.

Overall, the Jetseer council appears to have been needed hard, to me.

So the Serpent/Wraithknight spam lists that were obscene and popular are still going to be game breaking, but slightly less game breaking, but seer council shouldn't be a huge problem anymore.

Eldar are still top of the stack. Probably will be until the Serpent gets nerfed .

Side notes:
-Higher ML might be slightly better than Ageis, but Aegis + psykers everywhere is much better. Grey Knights should have better psyker defense as they'll have the same roll as a Farseer (unless the caster is ML3/4, then GK has better), *and* more dice.

Also, DAs only outshoot Marines at 12-18". Assuming Marines dont have a a Heavy or decent Special weapon. Yes, they have tools to try to keep you there. But engaging Eldar on their terms means you should lose. Marines win out in every other setup, even without Chapter Tactics or ATSKNF. A bolter round is much more deadly to a DA, than a Shuriken round is to a Marine. DAs cost the same as a Marine without CT or ATSKNF (C:CSM).

Eldar are good. Easily top of the heap good. But not everything in the Dex is broken.

There's one topic about whether the WS is better now, and Overall nerf is the conclusion. If you have something to bring I'd love to hear it, as you seem to understand the difference between a DA and a Tacmarine

morgoth wrote:
There's one topic about whether the WS is better now, and Overall nerf is the conclusion. If you have something to bring I'd love to hear it, as you seem to understand the difference between a DA and a Tacmarine

Eh what, can you point us to that thread?

I guess I can:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602273.page

 Araenion wrote:
If we're looking at DPS, it got worse. If we're looking at the actual usefulness on the table it got undeniably better.

 jy2 wrote:
Better! Lol.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, there is a tradeoff. It was more killy in the 6th ed, but its more survivable (from shooting) in the 7th ed.

 Zagman wrote:
As a pure Gunboat, the Wave Serpent is worse, yet more survivable.

As a transport and in Objective missions, it is significantly better. Its the best Objective Secured Transport in the game and is still a good Gunboat.

How about you stop making false claims?

The overall consensus is that the WS gota huge buff due to Objective Secured along with the new vehicle damage table.

The overall consensus is that a bunch of opinions make the WS out to be better, and all the facts logic and statistics are on the side that concludes that it is worse.

You may of course pick opinions over logic and facts, I'd rather keep those though.

I'd much rather rely on the opinion of people who, unlike you, actually play the game, even at a competitive level than I'd rely on the opinion of singular players who consider their very own subjective opinion a "general consensus".

So everyone else's logic is an opinion while yours is a fact? And even though everyone disagrees with you, the overall consensus is that you are right simply because their opinion is made irrelevant by the act of disagreeing with you? Since all your opinions are facts of course, anyone arguing with you clearly isn't capable of forming a sensible point of view. Thus, your opinion alone constitutes the majority.

Every single other poster on this forum to voice an opinion on the subject just don't have as solid a grip on the game as you, and haven't realized yet that the amazing utility received by becoming the best scoring unit in the game in no way makes up for the fact that you have to sacrifice a percentage of your damage to claim an even better jink than last edition.

You'd better keep starting this same argument in as many threads as possible until everyone properly understands.

mordakkagoth.com

 SHUPPET wrote:
So everyone else's logic is an opinion while yours is a fact? And even though everyone disagrees with you, the overall consensus is that you are right simply because their opinion is made irrelevant by the act of disagreeing with you? Since all your opinions are facts of course, anyone arguing with you clearly isn't capable of forming a sensible point of view. Thus, your opinion alone constitutes the majority.

Every single other poster on this forum to voice an opinion on the subject just don't have as solid a grip on the game as you, and haven't realized yet that the amazing utility received by becoming the best scoring unit in the game in no way makes up for the fact that you have to sacrifice a percentage of your damage to claim an even better jink than last edition.

You'd better keep starting this same argument in as many threads as possible until everyone properly understands.

mordakkagoth.com

There's only a few like you, none of which have brought numbers, study cases or anything even remotely logical.
You do not represent every single other poster, you're just part of a small group of people dedicated to repeating "Eldar OP WS OP" without anything to back your claim for hundreds and hundreds of posts.
Good for you.

Yep, ppeople who think Eldar are OP are the real minority.