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Ummm no that citation says you can measure different directions, not start moving models and then put them back. That says nothing about moving models and then putting them back.

One pre-measures to ensure the move is legal prior to attempting the move.

 Dracos wrote:
Ummm no that citation says you can measure different directions, not start moving models and then put them back. That says nothing about moving models and then putting them back.

However the only limitation on them moving is that they cannot end further than 6" from their starting point.

So there is no rules reason why moving back and then measuring to a different spot to move there is not allowed as the model has still not ended its move further than 6" from the starting point.

It's not measuring the actual distance covered by the model, only its final displacement from the initial position. So you could run your unit all around the table and the opposing player making Doppler Effect noises as long as they ended within a 6" bubble of where they started.

Except good luck keeping track of the exact starting position of all the models (including all parts of each base).

What you are describing is, practically speaking, impossible to do accurately. If you do that inaccurately, it's pretty obviously not going to be legal.

edit: In short, I reject your premise that you get "takesies backsies" when moving models.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Dracos wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Why wouldn't you? If you aren't going to think your move through before you start moving then the rules shouldn't help you for making a bad decision. And you can always return the vehicle back to it's starting position and move to a different place as long as you haven't finished the move.

It's not that I don't think my moves through, but that there will be some times where the exact orientation of the model in its end position is not solidified when you start moving. There is, AFAIK, no rule supporting the position that you can "return the vehicle back to it's starting position and move to a different place as long as you haven't finished the move". Got a citation for that?

second paragraph under Movement Distance section of the rulebook wrote:It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all. As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

So you could measure the distance, start to move it, change your mind and move it somewhere else.

I believe it came up in another thread in the instance of starting to move a squad one way, then moving the moved models back in order to move a different way.

Dracos wrote:Ummm no that citation says you can measure different directions, not start moving models and then put them back. That says nothing about moving models and then putting them back.

Except, well... you do.
You can measure a unit's move in one direction. and then decide to move the unit the opposite way entirely.
So if you move 1-2 models of a 10 model unit one direction, you have permission to move the models the opposite direction, or not at all.

You just made that up. It says nothing about moving them and then moving them again.

edit: That text is about measuring, not moving.

 Dracos wrote:
You just made that up. It says nothing about moving them and then moving them again.

edit: That text is about measuring, not moving.

Really?

It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all. As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

Exactly what part did I make up again? I emphasized where it talks about moving the unit.

 Dracos wrote:
Except good luck keeping track of the exact starting position of all the models (including all parts of each base).

What you are describing is, practically speaking, impossible to do accurately. If you do that inaccurately, it's pretty obviously not going to be legal.

edit: In short, I reject your premise that you get "takesies backsies" when moving models.

Where does it say in the book that once a model is moved that all movements are final? Using your logic, if I pick up my model and put it back down again because the model doesn't fit, I'm out of luck, even if the move isn't legal which would require that I put it back and start over. Or if I pick up my model and move it 24" and it's not a legal move, where does my model go? I can't put it back according to what you are saying.

A Town Called Malus does have a point:
The Movement Rules begin focused on the Unit as a whole, before moving onto limitations concerning individual Models themselves. It starts by giving permission for the Unit to move, which we take as permission to move the Models within the Unit for obvious reasons. It then creates a Restriction that we can not return to a Unit which has already moved and re-evaluate that movement, which is why pre-measuring and deciding at this moment in time is very important.

However, interestingly enough, that Restriction only triggers after the entire Unit has finished it's movement. While said Unit is in a state of 'moving,' there is nothing preventing us from re-evaluating that movement. Given that we still have permission to move the Unit as a whole, this creates the requirement of a specific Restriction making 'Take-backs' illegal on the Model level. Given that the next Restriction that would come into play is the requirement that Models remain within X of their starting position, and the rest get even easier to obey, it is entirely Legal to re-evaluate a Model's movement at this time.

Personally:
Measure and figure it all out before touching a single Model, as doing otherwise makes it too easy to cheat out half an inch here and there
While I honestly don't have much of a care about such little distances of movement, it is a game after all, it is easier to avoid bruised honor that way

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dracos wrote:
You just made that up. It says nothing about moving them and then moving them again.

edit: That text is about measuring, not moving.

Really?

It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all. As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

Exactly what part did I make up again? I emphasized where it talks about moving the unit.

It is quite clear and explicit that you are permitted to measure in any direction without committing to move that way. It says NOTHING about moving one way, and then moving back to the start position and move another. The emphasized text is the only mention of moving, which serves to disassociate the acts of measuring and moving.

You can " measure a unit’s move [...] and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else" That does not hold the meaning of moving models in one direction and then changing your mind.

In order to read it as you are, you would have to read measuring and moving as being interchangeable, which they certainly are not.

Warmonger2757 wrote:

 Dracos wrote:
Except good luck keeping track of the exact starting position of all the models (including all parts of each base).

What you are describing is, practically speaking, impossible to do accurately. If you do that inaccurately, it's pretty obviously not going to be legal.

edit: In short, I reject your premise that you get "takesies backsies" when moving models.

Where does it say in the book that once a model is moved that all movements are final? Using your logic, if I pick up my model and put it back down again because the model doesn't fit, I'm out of luck, even if the move isn't legal which would require that I put it back and start over. Or if I pick up my model and move it 24" and it's not a legal move, where does my model go? I can't put it back according to what you are saying.

This. It is nowhere in the rules defined as to when a move is completed. Therefore the only logical and working explanation is that the moving player decides. If it is up to the player to decide then they can move the unit back to where it started if they wished, so long as they had not ended that move (either by moving another unit or entering the shooting phase etc.).

 Dracos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dracos wrote:
You just made that up. It says nothing about moving them and then moving them again.

edit: That text is about measuring, not moving.

Really?

It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all. As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

Exactly what part did I make up again? I emphasized where it talks about moving the unit.

It is quite clear and explicit that you are permitted to measure in any direction without committing to move that way. It says NOTHING about moving one way, and then moving back to the start position and move another. The emphasized text is the only mention of moving, which serves to disassociate the acts of measuring and moving.

You can " measure a unit’s move [...] and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else" That does not hold the meaning of moving models in one direction and then changing your mind.

In order to read it as you are, you would have to read measuring and moving as being interchangeable, which they certainly are not.

The quoted rule certainly equates them. Or do you not have to measure when you move the completely opposite direction?

That is laughable. Measuring and moving are not the same thing. Moving has a subset of actions, one of which is measuring (since there is a limit to the move), the other is physically moving the model.

I'm at a loss a to how this is so hard to understand.

 Dracos wrote:
That is laughable. Measuring and moving are not the same thing. Moving has a subset of actions, one of which is measuring (since there is a limit to the move), the other is physically moving the model.

I'm at a loss a to how this is so hard to understand.

Arriving from Reserves and rolling for reserves are not the same thing. Arriving has a subset of actions, one of which is rolling (since you can't arrive if you fail the roll), the other is physically putting the models on the table.

I'm at a loss as to how this is so hard to understand.

 Dracos wrote:
That is laughable. Measuring and moving are not the same thing. Moving has a subset of actions, one of which is measuring (since there is a limit to the move), the other is physically moving the model.

I'm at a loss a to how this is so hard to understand.

If it is so laughable then I'm sure you can provide written rules to refute our stance? Telling us how a move is defined as finished would be a good place to start.

I would like to point out once more that the Rules create a point in the Timeline when the movement is considered final:
After the entire unit has moved.
Find me the Restriction that Triggers before that point preventing the Model from further movement.

I don't need to. You offered a citation claiming it gave you permission to do something, which it certainly does not.

 Dracos wrote:
I don't need to. You offered a citation claiming it gave you permission to do something, which it certainly does not.

Citation needed.

Ventiscogreen wrote:
..., measure out 6" from a infantry model at a corner, you wouldn't say it can be place anywhere within 6",

That's not what I was saying.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
If you look at that picture and think.."I do that all the time! I'm getting robbed of movement!" then you must regretfully throw away your bag of Cheetohs because cheesy got shut down by this rule change.

Except it was never legal in previous editions either.

I hate when I have to quote whole chunks of Rulebook like some sort of preacher....

Permission to Move:
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance. Once a unit has completed all of its movement, you can select another unit and move that one, and so on, until you have moved all of the units you wish to move. Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. Note that you don’t have to move all (or any) of your units – indeed, there are several tactical advantages to remaining stationary, as we’ll explain later in the rules. Once you’ve completed a unit’s move, you cannot go back and change it, so think carefully before giving the order to advance.

At this point I have permission to move any of my Units, it also creates the requirement that the entire Unit is declared as having 'moved' before I start to adjust Models within different Units. Now there is a lot of Game Workshop sloppy writing within this paragraph, such as Unit's having a 'maximum movement' or that it is actually individual Models which are being moved but we can understand enough of their intent here. No matter which direction the unit moves, all the Models within can not be further away from their allowed movements and further Rules to enforce this idea. However, at this point it is clear we have one thing, Permission to move Models until the entire unit has finished it's movement.

It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all. As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned to face in any direction, but if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6" away from where it started the Movement phase.

This paragraph you know fairly well already, it has been quoted and mis-quoted many times. However I would like to bring you to the very last part of it, where it informs us how we go about measuring if the Model's individual Movement is legal or not. This re-enforces the above quoted paragraph as well, creating a Restriction that makes sense as it is individual Models which have movement rates and not Units. However this informs us of one very important thing, that we measure from the starting position to the front of the model, ensuring it is not outside of it's movement allowance.

If you believe the above conclusion, with Rule quoted backing, is incorrect then you will need to provide quotes of your own from this point forward to support your stance as well.

 Nem wrote:
I believe vehicle movement around a corner would be measured exactly as if it were a model. You take a point on the Model / Vehicle (Usually the front because... cinematic - though this is never specified for any type of model), you measure 6'' maybe bending your tape measure to find the end point and then move the model.

But that was my point: If you do it that way, there is absolutely no point in the vehicle rules stating that you pivot on the centre point instead of 'wheeling' on the edge as they move. It simply won't matter how the vehicle turns.

Do note not all non vehicle model bases are round, ...

No they're not.

Your aforementioned Mawloc being a prime example.

clively wrote:
Dracos: you've hit on the actual issue.

With the rule, it's pretty much impossible to pivot (along the center axis) at the end of your movement if you've moved the maximum legal distance forward. Which means that if you intend to do a 180 degree pivot at the end then you have to reduce your movement by the length of the vehicle. Have a 4" long vehicle? Then your total forward movement is 2".

exactly. that cant be how the rules are intended.

if you need an essay of 4 forum pages to explain a simple rule, the rule isn't been used as intended.

the rulebook clearly states PIVOTING DOES NOT COUNT AS MOVEMENT.
this statement doesn't have any restriction whatsoever. whenever it is possible to move an vehicle you can pivot (from the center) as often as you like without it being counted as extra movement.

everything else is just shenanigans to justify ones own interpretation.


however i agree, that you should always measure distances from the centre in order to avoid complications or cheesy things like shown in the above pictures

RedNoak wrote:

clively wrote:
Dracos: you've hit on the actual issue.

With the rule, it's pretty much impossible to pivot (along the center axis) at the end of your movement if you've moved the maximum legal distance forward. Which means that if you intend to do a 180 degree pivot at the end then you have to reduce your movement by the length of the vehicle. Have a 4" long vehicle? Then your total forward movement is 2".

exactly. that cant be how the rules are intended.

if you need an essay of 4 forum pages to explain a simple rule, the rule isn't been used as intended.

the rulebook clearly states PIVOTING DOES NOT COUNT AS MOVEMENT.
this statement doesn't have any restriction whatsoever. whenever it is possible to move an vehicle you can pivot (from the center) as often as you like without it being counted as extra movement.

everything else is just shenanigans to justify ones own interpretation.


however i agree, that you should always measure distances from the centre in order to avoid complications or cheesy things like shown in the above pictures

The rule clearly states that

A model that only pivots on the spot in the Movement phase counts as being stationary for all purposes, including subsequent shooting attacks.

Notice the word "only" in there.

Then in the vehicle section it states:

Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot).

Notice that the word "only" is in there again.

That is not the same as saying that PIVOTING DOES NOT COUNT AS MOVEMENT.

As soon as a vehicle has done more than just pivot, the movement rules are in place and no point of the vehicle can end its move further than 6" from its initial position if you are moving at Combat Speed.

Quick question as I think I might of missed something:
What section informs us that we must measure to a specific point on the Hull, instead of just the Hull in general?

JinxDragon wrote:
Quick question:
What section informs us that we must measure to a specific point on the Hull, instead of just the Hull in general?

The movement rules specify that no point on the base of a model can end its move further than 6" from its starting point.

When moving vehicles the Hull is used instead of the base and so no point on the Hull can end its move further than 6" (or 12" if cruising with its homies) from its starting point.

Name of the section please, I'm clearly looking in the wrong place and the damn digital editions with their 'adjustable' pages....

JinxDragon wrote:
Name of the section please, I'm clearly looking in the wrong place and the damn digital editions with their 'adjustable' pages....

The Movement Phase section, Movement distance sub-section, 2nd Graph.

I was looking in the Vehicle section, thinking something related to measuring to a Specific point on the Hull, instead of say the furtherest point on the hull as a whole, of a vehicle would be related there.
Do you mean by 2nd Graph the picture showing the correct and incorrect measurement of a Model?

JinxDragon wrote:
I was looking in the Vehicle section, thinking something related to measuring to a Specific point on the Hull, instead of say the furtherest point on the hull as a whole, of a vehicle would be related there.
Do you mean by 2nd Graph the picture showing the correct and incorrect measurement of a Model?

Second Paragraph

JinxDragon wrote:
I was looking in the Vehicle section, thinking something related to measuring to a Specific point on the Hull, instead of say the furtherest point on the hull as a whole, of a vehicle would be related there.
Do you mean by 2nd Graph the picture showing the correct and incorrect measurement of a Model?

Graph = paragraph. and The movement section, not the Vehicle section.

The graph that starts with the line "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction..."