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The subject, if there's anything left to even discuss, is the Perry brothers.

It is not people's opinions on other posters, sculpters or GW staff.

Further posts on these or other Off topic posts will be treated as spam.

 sing your life wrote:
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Matter of opinion, The Minion range is looking great and will be released in a couple of months. Meanwhile I can get Mantic at my LGSs and some of their miniatures are very good.

If a line that hasn't even been sculpted yet and a line with "some" very good miniatures is enough for you, then that's fine, but that hardly indicates a wealth of non-GW options for plastic fantasy gaming kids. Also, neither of the lines you mention has a good quality plastic human kit.

xxvaderxx wrote:
I either imagine, they did not adapt to CAD technology as they should have thus they got canned. Or they simply had a set contract for a few particular projects, mainly LOTR related.

Or, after 30odd years working for GW they both have taken semi retirement and just work on what they want to work on for their own company. Sounds like they parted well, and they have been working for GW for much longer than LoTR.

GW have lost some talent, but they have a deep pool to draw from and new sculptors constantly coming through. Good luck to them, and I hope they expand the range as I am very tempted to use some of the historic plastics for the basis of a guard force.

 Azazelx wrote:

 snurl wrote:
Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?

Can't see that happening - based on a couple of things:

1) A likely non-compete clause. We heard about Priestly's one. No Sci-fi or Fantasy for X number of years.
2) They are major historical buffs. It's their passion, not Fantasy or not-Imperial Astra Guard Militarium. Warhammer paid the bills for many years, and also allowed them to sculpt Dark Ages Medieval/WotR figures and Renaissance Swiss as an aside. Blanche's art direction, yadda yadda - the Empire looks as it does primarily because of the Perrys.

Exactly. Anyone who knows anything about the Perrys will know that they will continue to do historical miniatures. It is their passion, I don't think they would take the route of fantasy/sci-fi stuff even if it were open to them.

I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually released a line of not-LotR plastics. They'd be suitable for fantasy gaming and who knows how long GW will be making figures for it now that the Hobbit is almost over.

I'm selling off my Brets, not because I dislike them, but I'd rather have an army of the Perry minis instead (even though I know the Brets are Perry minis,...).

Hope to see good stuff from them!

Wait a bit for the agincourt to Crecy line to come out.

winterdyne wrote:
Wait a bit for the agincourt to Crecy line to come out.

Is this in the cards, or just a hope? That could be a whole bucket of Brettonian fun.

 Eilif wrote:
Is this in the cards, or just a hope? That could be a whole bucket of Brettonian fun.

Definitely on the cards.... Agincourt men at arms are in progress...

 Azazelx wrote:

 snurl wrote:
Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?

Can't see that happening - based on a couple of things:

1) A likely non-compete clause. We heard about Priestly's one. No Sci-fi or Fantasy for X number of years.
2) They are major historical buffs. It's their passion, not Fantasy or not-Imperial Astra Guard Militarium. Warhammer paid the bills for many years, and also allowed them to sculpt Dark Ages Medieval/WotR figures and Renaissance Swiss as an aside. Blanche's art direction, yadda yadda - the Empire looks as it does primarily because of the Perrys.

Except for Orks and Monsters and things, Ancient/Mediaeval/Renaissance figures are absolutely fine for Fantasy.

With the rumored upcoming re-do of the Bretonnian Army Book, this is great news!

Basically i'm just waiting for them to release the Hunder Years War-Crecy miniatures. The WotR figures I'm using right now for my fantasy Lannister army are a bit too hi-tech for my taste and I would love to mix it up with older Medieval sprues so it won't look too WotR.

A cavalry based on Hunder Years War would look better for Bretonnians if ever than a cavalry based on WotR. Fireforge cavalry mixed with Perry WotR cavalry would also work.

By WoTR I assume you mean War of the Roses, and not War of the Ring?

Just thinking of the confusion with the Tool tip that generates..

I think the WoTR men at arms figures are fine for later 100yr war, after all there isn't really much of a gap between them in timescales. If you wanted to you could just miss out a few of the more ostentatious bits of armour from the sprue.



Sure you could probably add heads from the forthcoming Perry plastic Men at Arms kits also.

For Bretonnians I think having shields is a priority on how they look, and late medieval armor makes shields redundant. If I can find loose, cheap shields i'll add them to my cavalry, damn historical accuracy I'm making a fantasy army dammit.

And lol War of the Ring never crossed my mind.

During the Wars of the Roses it was fairly rare for men at arms to fight mounted.

Indeed, but it wasn't so much the armour that made blocking shields redundant, so much as the weaponry being used - attempting to block something like a poleaxe, bec or bill strike rather than deflect would often result in a broken or dislocated arm. Plate armour was at this point evolving into designs to deflect rather than absorb heavy blows. Look how the cuirass changed from the rather flat breastplates of the early HYW to the centre ridge of the ECW.

The majority of troops in the WotR were still just wearing padded jacks and brigandines similar to those worn from earlier periods. Froissart is a little off the mark in his paintings of everyone in plate.

Archery, and handguns were also becoming prevalent (recent finds at Bosworth for example turned up a surprising large amount of shot, indicating that firearms were far more common than first thought).

It was this mass archery that in particular discouraged cavalry use - a trick that came to the fore in the HYW.

With regards to shields, a very common item of infantry equipment for everyone from peasant to noble was the buckler (about the size of a dinner plate); used for parrying and deflection - the trick with that is to hit a blow away, not attempt to stop it. Or punch people in the face, slam the edge into their nose, and an assortment of other dirty tricks once you're in the crush.

winterdyne wrote:
With regards to shields, a very common item of infantry equipment for everyone from peasant to noble was the buckler (about the size of a dinner plate); used for parrying and deflection - the trick with that is to hit a blow away, not attempt to stop it. Or punch people in the face, slam the edge into their nose, and an assortment of other dirty tricks once you're in the crush.

Very similar to how boxers or other Martial Artists will parry a strike if they can. Always better to dodge or parry than to block and absorb the blow. Even more so when weapons are involved.

Saw a cool video a while ago with some HEMA guys using the round viking shield both offensively and defensively. Especially the side of the shield which was something I hadn't considered.

 carlos13th wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
With regards to shields, a very common item of infantry equipment for everyone from peasant to noble was the buckler (about the size of a dinner plate); used for parrying and deflection - the trick with that is to hit a blow away, not attempt to stop it. Or punch people in the face, slam the edge into their nose, and an assortment of other dirty tricks once you're in the crush.

Very similar to how boxers or other Martial Artists will parry a strike if they can. Always better to dodge or parry than to block and absorb the blow. Even more so when weapons are involved.

Saw a cool video a while ago with some HEMA guys using the round viking shield both offensively and defensively. Especially the side of the shield which was something I hadn't considered.

Same way that you block with a tomahawk. You are, in effect, striking the incoming weapon and deflecting it away from the line of attack.

Hollywood has a lot to answer for in how people perceive medieval combat. It was NOT a fencing match. It was usually a dirty, scrappy brawl where you were as likely to get a backhand gauntlet to the face, pommel to the back of the head, or knee to the groin (actually very dangerous with the sharp up-pointing gothic style poleyns) as anything else. And that's before you factor in simply picking people up and throwing them around.

One thing I noticed, was as long as you stayed up, plate was great, but as soon as you get knocked over things go wrong - and not because it's heavy, usually more because something gets bent (locking up a knee or elbow) or a tie snaps - legs are normally laced to the belt of a harness with a leather thong, and when that goes, the whole leg assembly slips down - making it hard to walk, never mind fight. A properly fitted full harness from a decent armourer goes some way to stopping that but I'd bought mine piecemeal (as a lot of people at the time would have) and cobbled a suit out of various bits of 'salvaged' gear. Bits fell off now and then (which made for a good show, but was a bit of pain as far as fighting effectively went).

If you can only fight with a sword, you are only half a swordsman.

winterdyne wrote:
Hollywood has a lot to answer for in how people perceive medieval combat. It was NOT a fencing match. It was usually a dirty, scrappy brawl where you were as likely to get a backhand gauntlet to the face, pommel to the back of the head, or knee to the groin (actually very dangerous with the sharp up-pointing gothic style poleyns) as anything else. And that's before you factor in simply picking people up and throwing them around.

One thing I noticed, was as long as you stayed up, plate was great, but as soon as you get knocked over things go wrong - and not because it's heavy, usually more because something gets bent (locking up a knee or elbow) or a tie snaps - legs are normally laced to the belt of a harness with a leather thong, and when that goes, the whole leg assembly slips down - making it hard to walk, never mind fight. A properly fitted full harness from a decent armourer goes some way to stopping that but I'd bought mine piecemeal (as a lot of people at the time would have) and cobbled a suit out of various bits of 'salvaged' gear. Bits fell off now and then (which made for a good show, but was a bit of pain as far as fighting effectively went).

There was apparently a decent amount of grappling in medieval weapon combat too.

 heartserenade wrote:
For Bretonnians I think having shields is a priority on how they look, and late medieval armor makes shields redundant. If I can find loose, cheap shields i'll add them to my cavalry, damn historical accuracy I'm making a fantasy army dammit.

And lol War of the Ring never crossed my mind.

Old GLory will sell you virtually any sheild they make (Except zulu shields) for $0.25 each. You have to go through the catalog and find the shield you like on a given unit, but it's probably worth it. IIRC, they have a variety of different shield shapes within their massive catalog.
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SHIELDS

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 snurl wrote:
Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?

Can't see that happening - based on a couple of things:

1) A likely non-compete clause. We heard about Priestly's one. No Sci-fi or Fantasy for X number of years.
2) They are major historical buffs. It's their passion, not Fantasy or not-Imperial Astra Guard Militarium. Warhammer paid the bills for many years, and also allowed them to sculpt Dark Ages Medieval/WotR figures and Renaissance Swiss as an aside. Blanche's art direction, yadda yadda - the Empire looks as it does primarily because of the Perrys.

Except for Orks and Monsters and things, Ancient/Mediaeval/Renaissance figures are absolutely fine for Fantasy.

I don't disagree at all. I've got more than a few Historical models bought and in the paint queue ready for use in Fantasy gaming (amongst other things). But when people ask for a "Fantasy Line" from the Perrys, my guess is that they're not asking for Landsknechts or Wars of the Roses models, etc.

 Azazelx wrote:


I don't disagree at all. I've got more than a few Historical models bought and in the paint queue ready for use in Fantasy gaming (amongst other things). But when people ask for a "Fantasy Line" from the Perrys, my guess is that they're not asking for Landsknechts or Wars of the Roses models, etc.

That's true. I wonder though....
If Perry put out some Landsknechts and put them up on Dakka without any historical reference, there'd probably be alot of folks whose first impulse would be to say "Oooh, Perry is copying GW empire" followed by alternate chorus's of "Boo Perry" and "I've gotta have them".
The line between fantasy and historical is thin in places.

Perry should do that, though. Landsknechtsssssssss. That's still non-compete!

 Eilif wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


I don't disagree at all. I've got more than a few Historical models bought and in the paint queue ready for use in Fantasy gaming (amongst other things). But when people ask for a "Fantasy Line" from the Perrys, my guess is that they're not asking for Landsknechts or Wars of the Roses models, etc.

That's true. I wonder though....
If Perry put out some Landsknechts and put them up on Dakka without any historical reference, there'd probably be alot of folks whose first impulse would be to say "Oooh, Perry is copying GW empire" followed by alternate chorus's of "Boo Perry" and "I've gotta have them".
The line between fantasy and historical is thin in places.

Thats true. If you put a model designed to be a Landsknecht model and one designed to be an empire I doubt I would be able to tell which is which. I would just guess the least chunky one was historical.

I would buy half a ton of Perry Landsknechts. No idea what I'd use them for -- I don't play Warhammer Fantasy -- but they'd have to be useful for something.

GW's business model is one of providing a complete package and in some ways relies on customer ignorance of the larger hobby. So it probably shouldn't be surprising that the typical GW gamer would think Empire is unique and original and that Perry Landsknecht's would just be copying GW.

GW has managed to convince a great many people that their fictional universes (which they've admitted in published works and on the stand in court is just a mish-mash of other people's ideas) are special and original.

 frozenwastes wrote:
GW has managed to convince a great many people that their fictional universes (which they've admitted in published works and on the stand in court is just a mish-mash of other people's ideas) are special and original.

Dear God, everything around us is a mish-mash of other people's ideas. It's how you put those ideas together that makes the difference. And like it or not, WFB and 40k do offer a lot of "special and original" takes on previous concepts.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
GW has managed to convince a great many people that their fictional universes (which they've admitted in published works and on the stand in court is just a mish-mash of other people's ideas) are special and original.

Dear God, everything around us is a mish-mash of other people's ideas. It's how you put those ideas together that makes the difference. And like it or not, WFB and 40k do offer a lot of "special and original" takes on previous concepts.

I keep seeing that asserted, but then when examples are to be given, they end up being very derivative, often with direct analogues to past creations.

I'm totally okay with everything being the result of derivation and mash up. People just need to be honest that's what they're doing and certainly not sue people over ideas you can't own. GW had their chance to show just how original, special and unique their products were in the CHS case and they failed to shut CHS down and the case is still mired in appeals and negotiations. An utter failure that lead to GW's in house lawyer no longer working for them.

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