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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I don't buy into this notion that the worlds population will submit to alien attacks. I don't believe we will get up and say "okay you win, I'll believe in a god emperor now".

We can't get Muslims and Jews to even be in the same room with each other due to their religious beliefs, yet you think they'll willingly lay done their arms to a new dogma? That goes for pretty much any religion on the planet.

Before this thread I would have assumed that most people would rather die fighting than be subjugated. Perhaps that is more to do with the normal people I am around every day (people who would rather die fighting than see the country fall)

I suppose I'm in the minority though.

I have a feeling people might be suddenly inclined to happily lay down and surrender if a Strike Cruiser, say, slags the capital with either one or two shots.

Yeah, the glorious sacrifice for the nation is a bit less glorious if you're orbital bombardmented.

I see you made a new word there.

+1 for the creation of a new word

Don't ruin my extraordinary sacrifice to keep the people of Earth free from Space Marines that's kicking around my head


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 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter.

The collective psyche and technologically advanced weapons of a chapter of space marines (which they themselves are weapons, where earth soldiers are but men - prone to weakness) would crush the USA and all others.

And we will have to agree to disagree on this one

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
When the loyalist WE's (their numbers I'm guessing in the thousands) are holding off a whole city (hundreds of thousands) they seemed a bit 'busy' to do much else but fight off simple civilians. These people were armed with everything and anything, including shards of pottery. And they still managed to take down a WE or two.
to say normal people have not a chance against SM's is laughable. Numbers make up for poor quality more times than not.

One on one anything can happen. Usually, you die, the marine wins.

A chapter will lay waste to everything.

The marine's spaceships and ships would crush every kind of aircraft known on earth. We don't have the capability to control the space nor the skies. By the time the tanks land, if they even have to land at all, half the battle is over.

I don't think the Marines have the numbers to take Earth unless they use orbital bombardment to lay waste to most of it if we're talking a single chapter. 1,000 is a tiny amount of soldiers regardless of strength.

 Ignatius wrote:

And we will have to agree to disagree on this one

I will agree to no such thing!


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't think the Marines have the numbers to take Earth unless they use orbital bombardment to lay waste to most of it if we're talking a single chapter. 1,000 is a tiny amount of soldiers regardless of strength.

Thats exactly my point. Earth doesn't stand a chance., because there is no spacefleet! Nor air superiority. Nothing can match the space marine invasion fleet. Boots probably don't even have to hit the ground. The advanced weapons will scorch all the targets, and there could (if they cared enough) still be a planet to settle, to the let the guardsman settle.

I presume that the hero stories in the fluff about a chapter taking over a planet, well, said planet is probably similar to our modern earth prison.

What ships do marines have that can crush all our aircraft? Their aircraft don't seem to be built following any sort of actual thought that normally goes into creating fixed wing aircraft

The wings on the space marine low altitude or whatever you call it (the ones that can't go in space?) aircraft, they don't use their wings like our hollow aircraft do. They have much more powerful engines, thrusters to push themselves around.

They are built like flying tanks.

Also, the missiles compared to each other - space marine missile owns our fighter jets in one hit, our aircraft puts some dents in it after a few hits

Those numbers aren't final, but thats an easy way of putting it.

The technology doesn't stack, the weapons don't stack.

 Ignatius wrote:
What ships do marines have that can crush all our aircraft? Their aircraft don't seem to be built following any sort of actual thought that normally goes into creating fixed wing aircraft

This. Space Marine aircraft could not fly. If they actually managed to get off the ground they would be less manoeuvrable that fighter planes from world war 2 like the Spitfire.


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 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The wings on the space marine low altitude or whatever you call it (the ones that can't go in space?) aircraft, they don't use their wings like our hollow aircraft do. They have much more powerful engines, thrusters to push themselves around.

They are built like flying tanks.

Also, the missiles compared to each other - space marine missile owns our fighter jets in one hit, our aircraft puts some dents in it after a few hits

Those numbers aren't final, but thats an easy way of putting it.

The technology doesn't stack, the weapons don't stack.

A missile can't hit a fighter that is behind you because you decided to build a flying tank rather than an effective fighter.

And really, space marine aircraft fail at being flying tanks for the simple fact that the engines must be exposed and therefore are weak points on the structure. Take out the engines and it would drop out of the sky in an uncontrolled plummet.

Okay but if you increase the weight of a ship, then you have to increase the amount of power and fuel needed, as well as the strength of the engines just to keep it at normal standards.

So a space marine ship might be like a tank, but it would also require massive engines and an unbelievable amount of energy to keep it flying. Which isn't itself condemning of the marines combat ability, but it does have implications.

There is a reason why our lanes today are light on armor (i.e none). It's to maximize speed, which is much more significant to being able to successfully complete the job that it was made to do. Which is shoot down other planes (at least in the case of fighters like F-22s and such).

And here is where we disagree and why we won't be able to actually change each other's minds. You believe that our weapons will have a negligible impact on anything the marines have, where as I believe that our technology and weapons are more than capable of not only maiming and destroying marines, but also causing massive amounts of damage to everything they have available.

 Swastakowey wrote:


No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.

There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.

I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.

Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.

Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.

Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesn't need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart

marines don't need food, so they don't need to carry food, don't need sleep, have superior technology across the board, meaning their intel is vastly more intricate than earth's, have flying tanks armored with adamantium (that makes them super tanks because their armor is impervious to all but the most powerful missiles current day earth had), ie, space ships, with friggen laser beams. If they even feel the need to, well, their tanks on the ground? are fething amazingly tough. Your tanks wont do gak.

Finally, if they actually set foot, its already over.

- - -

It would appear absurd to a closed box. You have to remember, these THINGS are not humans. They are weapons. Your mortar rounds will not break apart their tanks nor their troops, maybe if you get lucky and hit a scout, but opther than that, super armor the likes of which your weapons have never met before. Your materials are not up to this code, the marines materials and technology outclass everything this planet has.

But its the navy, the space marines gawd damn space ships - theres not a single thing current day earth could do against a chapter of marines 1000 strong. Earth or any planet like it would fall in days, and then the marines would leave as soon as they came, and the guard come in to suffocate every nook and cranny on earth with their sheer numbers.

Space Marine air shipsare quite crappy as dedicated aircraft. They are okay at being gunships and transports but even against our own aircraft they'd be wrecked. Thankfully that's what the Imperial Navy and their awesome ships are for.

 Ignatius wrote:
Okay but if you increase the weight of a ship, then you have to increase the amount of power and fuel needed, as well as the strength of the engines just to keep it at normal standards.

So a space marine ship might be like a tank, but it would also require massive engines and an unbelievable amount of energy to keep it flying. Which isn't itself condemning of the marines combat ability, but it does have implications.

There is a reason why our lanes today are light on armor (i.e none). It's to maximize speed, which is much more significant to being able to successfully complete the job that it was made to do. Which is shoot down other planes (at least in the case of fighters like F-22s and such).

And here is where we disagree and why we won't be able to actually change each other's minds. You believe that our weapons will have a negligible impact on anything the marines have, where as I believe that our technology and weapons are more than capable of not only maiming and destroying marines, but also causing massive amounts of damage to everything they have available.

But our weapons are inferior. To me this is obvious.

The marine ships have the required fuel and power, and have strong enough engines to keep them running at their normal standards. Our jets are paper airplanes compared to these monsters of excess.

The technology gap is so great, current day earth wouldn't scratch the marines.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
Space Marine air shipsare quite crappy as dedicated aircraft. They are okay at being gunships and transports but even against our own aircraft they'd be wrecked. Thankfully that's what the Imperial Navy and their awesome ships are for.

The marine and guard both use fairly similar aircraft.

Our aluminum aircraft with decent missiles are nothing against the pinnacle of war - these ships are old school looking but they are made from adamantium and other materials incredibly more strong than our own, and despite the supposed weight of it all, they still fly fast. Their weapons are better than ours. Better missiles than ours, in conjunction with heavy lasers, etc.


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tiny numbers of space marines conquer many planets because they are made for it from birth. Everything they do leads up to something like this - current day earth wouldn't stand a chance.

These stories of tiny amounts of marines taking over planets are probably about planets similar in strength to our own. Anything stronger and there would be more guard support.

I doubt that the marines would come alone - they'd come with a hell of alot of guardsmen and imperial navy.

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Okay but if you increase the weight of a ship, then you have to increase the amount of power and fuel needed, as well as the strength of the engines just to keep it at normal standards.

So a space marine ship might be like a tank, but it would also require massive engines and an unbelievable amount of energy to keep it flying. Which isn't itself condemning of the marines combat ability, but it does have implications.

There is a reason why our lanes today are light on armor (i.e none). It's to maximize speed, which is much more significant to being able to successfully complete the job that it was made to do. Which is shoot down other planes (at least in the case of fighters like F-22s and such).

And here is where we disagree and why we won't be able to actually change each other's minds. You believe that our weapons will have a negligible impact on anything the marines have, where as I believe that our technology and weapons are more than capable of not only maiming and destroying marines, but also causing massive amounts of damage to everything they have available.

But our weapons are inferior. To me this is obvious.

The marine ships have the required fuel and power, and have strong enough engines to keep them running at their normal standards. Our jets are paper airplanes compared to these monsters of excess.

The technology gap is so great, current day earth wouldn't scratch the marines.

Heavier it is, bigger engines it needs. Bigger engines it needs, more fuel it needs. More fuel it needs, heavier it is.

It will be spending most of its fuel lifting its fuel rather than actually accelerating.

And again, its engines are vulnerable and it will not be able to perform anywhere near the level of aeronautical tricks our planes can do due to a lovely little equation called Force = Mass * Acceleration.

Its engines have a maximum force, and so for each extra bit of weight, it's acceleration goes down. As that acceleration goes down, its manoeuvrability goes down.

Our modern Fighters would dance around space marine aircraft and plant missiles into their engines until they dropped from the sky like a rock.

Not the Imperial Guard. The Navy. The Navy uses dedicated fighter craft that is better equipped for the job. I don't think Krak missiles are all that much more powerful than our own missiles but that's opinion. A 1:1 comparison is difficult because we don't know how their magical space stuff compares to our own magical military stuff.

So, unless they have chaff launchers and hidden lock on devices (Which only the Hunter seems to have, lolz) then they're sitting ducks.

Space Marine aircraft, as presented by Gee Dubs, are poorly designed pieces of junk with the aerodynamics of a brick with giant rockets taped to it.

I'm curious of where you are getting all this information from?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

This. Space Marine aircraft could not fly. If they actually managed to get off the ground they would be less manoeuvrable that fighter planes from world war 2 like the Spitfire.

We don't have the technology to do it but they do.

They sure can fly, and they kill alot of stuff. I compare them as like tanks, when put side by side one of our jetfighters.

Yes, one of our jetfighters could get behind on of the marine's aircraft, but marines can do the same thing. Yes, the engines would be a wqeak point, but when it comes to our aircraft, the entire thing is weak.

And heavy lasers are perfect weapons against fast moving aircraft because of the lack of travel time of the "projectile". Much, easier to aim with, without the big need to "lead" your shots.

This will never be a straight up equal fight. Before the marines establish any landing zone, much of the earth's military industrial complex would be shattered from orbit.

One on one marine ship, tank, soldier would annihilate our own stuff.

Logistics are the main thing however. The marine chapter would have the upper hand at all times because every single part of it is designed to destroy all opposition, and that takes great logistics, and the marines have very very good logistics, at least compared to our own.

The technology gap is too big.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not the Imperial Guard. The Navy. The Navy uses dedicated fighter craft that is better equipped for the job. I don't think Krak missiles are all that much more powerful than our own missiles but that's opinion. A 1:1 comparison is difficult because we don't know how their magical space stuff compares to our own magical military stuff.

So, unless they have chaff launchers and hidden lock on devices (Which only the Hunter seems to have, lolz) then they're sitting ducks.

Space Marine aircraft, as presented by Gee Dubs, are poorly designed pieces of junk with the aerodynamics of a brick with giant rockets taped to it.

I gotta check out Gee Dubs.

But I do believe that all of our technology is inferior to the marines. So IMO krak missiles are much better than our own, and thunderhawks, lightnings are quite capable at maneuvering and unleashing heavy firepower. The maneuvering and maximum speed of the marines bulky ships versus our own may be less, but they more than make up for it in armour and firepower.

That's just it, though. They only have Laser Cannons which aren't nearly as reliable as our missiles when it comes to hitting enemy aircraft. Plus they're easy to evade if you use old school dog fighting techniques.

What do you mean "That's just it"?

The heavy lasers on the ships are just as reliable as krak missiles to function, and when they do function their power, accuracy and range is far superior to krak missiles.

I would say it is much more difficult to dodge almost-instantaneous thick laser fire than the slower missiles.

(Unless the pilot in question had psychic forethought... XD)

Our own weapons are not going to damage the marine's craft much at all, and the marines craft have enough speed to challenge our own on much more than an equal footing.

I think people are forgetting how fragile everything is (both marines and humans, although marines are the worst offenders).

Its not like the movies pro marine guys. Tanks dont just shrug off hits! A simple hit to some optics or the tracks can and usually do disable tanks. Rifles frequently took out tanks in the world wars by rendering them useless.

Aircraft are worse. A few bullets are all it takes for for an aircrafts to rip apart slowly or burst into flames.

Space Marines are so big and slow generally that they would suffer to weapons who excel at hitting fast and low silhouette targets. All it takes is one hit and that tank is stunned (from the huge force) or all the bits in the surrounding area are ruined/damaged. An aircraft would be very lucky to take a hit from a missile and not immediately fall from the sky, let along something as big and slow as space marine craft.

Nothing "just takes hits" like nothing ever. Every hit, every nick and every blast does vital damage to anything. Its how war is and always will be. Space Marines will not be immune to this.

Imagine a mortar lands in front of a Space Marine (imagine nothing else happens either). The fragmentation will bound off him in certain areas but a lot of it may hit joints, his weapons, visor and face grill breather things. His helmet will more than likely need to be removed (exposing it) and then we factor in the blast damage. We are talking broken ribs, ruptured organs, popped eyes, fractured/broken bones and the list goes on. And thats from one Mortar. Add in the other crap happening on the field and you have one sure fire dead marine.

The list goes on for many weapons. Nothing can and ever has, just taken hits with no damage or reprecussion. Even a machine gun against a naval ship can do damage (exposed crew, antenna etc etc).

Its how war works. It can be minimized, but even then. There is no such thing as auto safety in war.

the ancient wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:


Bottom Line: Space Marines, as written in fluff will only work if they fight incompetent, low tech monolithic enemies.

-STS

So a bit like Mericka

I'd almost give you that...but I suspect lack of political will, strategic blindness and public squeamishness have far more to do with our recent/current losses than some failure of skill or capability.

But, that said...yeah, there are some real winners in Mericka, I will grant you that.

-STS

And b uddy, could you tell me what the hell Gee Dub is? I can't seem to get any links. Mind you I'm drinking and not trying very hard...

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
The wings on the space marine low altitude or whatever you call it (the ones that can't go in space?) aircraft, they don't use their wings like our hollow aircraft do. They have much more powerful engines, thrusters to push themselves around.

They are built like flying tanks.

Also, the missiles compared to each other - space marine missile owns our fighter jets in one hit, our aircraft puts some dents in it after a few hits

Those numbers aren't final, but thats an easy way of putting it.

The technology doesn't stack, the weapons don't stack.

Don't forget the Strike Cruiser can simply one-shot all of our bases, airfields, and fuel depots. You can't actually use aircraft if the pilots are dead, the airfields are scrapped, and there's no fuel to even put in the craft.


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 Swastakowey wrote:
I think people are forgetting how fragile everything is (both marines and humans, although marines are the worst offenders).

Its not like the movies pro marine guys. Tanks dont just shrug off hits! A simple hit to some optics or the tracks can and usually do disable tanks. Rifles frequently took out tanks in the world wars by rendering them useless.

Aircraft are worse. A few bullets are all it takes for for an aircrafts to rip apart slowly or burst into flames.

Space Marines are so big and slow generally that they would suffer to weapons who excel at hitting fast and low silhouette targets. All it takes is one hit and that tank is stunned (from the huge force) or all the bits in the surrounding area are ruined/damaged. An aircraft would be very lucky to take a hit from a missile and not immediately fall from the sky, let along something as big and slow as space marine craft.

Nothing "just takes hits" like nothing ever. Every hit, every nick and every blast does vital damage to anything. Its how war is and always will be. Space Marines will not be immune to this.

Imagine a mortar lands in front of a Space Marine (imagine nothing else happens either). The fragmentation will bound off him in certain areas but a lot of it may hit joints, his weapons, visor and face grill breather things. His helmet will more than likely need to be removed (exposing it) and then we factor in the blast damage. We are talking broken ribs, ruptured organs, popped eyes, fractured/broken bones and the list goes on. And thats from one Mortar. Add in the other crap happening on the field and you have one sure fire dead marine.

The list goes on for many weapons. Nothing can and ever has, just taken hits with no damage or reprecussion. Even a machine gun against a naval ship can do damage (exposed crew, antenna etc etc).

Its how war works. It can be minimized, but even then. There is no such thing as auto safety in war.

Are you blind? I already posted a feth ton of quotes pointing to how Astartes have millisecond reaction speeds, can dodge supersonic projectiles, and can run at around low highway speeds while being invisible to IR. Mortars won't do anything to Astartes armor period, they already walk through normal frag grenades while taking absolutely no damage, feth one even got hit by a direct artillery shell from a caliber so powerful it could probably only be found in World War I!

Just because you don't like the fluff doesn't invalidate it. It just makes you butthurt.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I think people are forgetting how fragile everything is (both marines and humans, although marines are the worst offenders).

Wait a second man it is supposed to be the other way around. The marines and the guard are fething monsters of war, compared to current day earth. ANd then your got the REAL monsters, like orkz, nids, crons. The eldar are pretty much on par with the imperium (more advanced tech and psychics, but less numbers and no totalitarian rule.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Its not like the movies pro marine guys. Tanks dont just shrug off hits! A simple hit to some optics or the tracks can and usually do disable tanks. Rifles frequently took out tanks in the world wars by rendering them useless.

Aircraft are worse. A few bullets are all it takes for for an aircrafts to rip apart slowly or burst into flames.

Space Marines are so big and slow generally that they would suffer to weapons who excel at hitting fast and low silhouette targets. All it takes is one hit and that tank is stunned (from the huge force) or all the bits in the surrounding area are ruined/damaged. An aircraft would be very lucky to take a hit from a missile and not immediately fall from the sky, let along something as big and slow as space marine craft.

Nothing "just takes hits" like nothing ever. Every hit, every nick and every blast does vital damage to anything. Its how war is and always will be. Space Marines will not be immune to this.

Imagine a mortar lands in front of a Space Marine (imagine nothing else happens either). The fragmentation will bound off him in certain areas but a lot of it may hit joints, his weapons, visor and face grill breather things. His helmet will more than likely need to be removed (exposing it) and then we factor in the blast damage. We are talking broken ribs, ruptured organs, popped eyes, fractured/broken bones and the list goes on. And thats from one Mortar. Add in the other crap happening on the field and you have one sure fire dead marine.

The list goes on for many weapons. Nothing can and ever has, just taken hits with no damage or reprecussion. Even a machine gun against a naval ship can do damage (exposed crew, antenna etc etc).

Its how war works. It can be minimized, but even then. There is no such thing as auto safety in war.

You are explaining how current day earth weapons affect current day earth targets, and current day armored targets.

I'm saying the marines and the guard have better armor, better firepower - the marines have great resilience to most if not all of our weapons. The ships the marines have would not wear and tear as easily as what you are used to. The parts are incredibly solid.

Another way of putting it is yes, a couple of jets could strike at a couple of marine ships, and take them down. But it would probably be suicide for the earth jets, because the fact that said jets got into that dogfight in the first place means to me that the marine's calculation of their war effort factored in this small loss. But the time such a loss could occur, the earth forces would have been decimated. So the loss was negligible.

Wyzilla, are you blind? there is fluff that says Marines cant take hits as well.

Dominant hunter: Read what I said properly. Things dont shrug off hits with no repercussions. Each time its hit, thats damage done. Regardless how much. More hits always = more damage.

So if you wont believe 1 mortar hit, then imagine 3 mortar hits and 15 Greande round hits. The damage all scales up.

To say anything else is pretty much saying:

"well magic!"

They are not immune to this. Marines will die very easily, its pretty simple to imagine. Just think about it with actual physics etc.

So for example. Crappy SM flyer (lm gonna humour you guys and pretend it can fly) gets hit by a missile. The force of that missile (assuming it does no damage) will force that craft in a different direction. That crafts angines are propelling it. Say the hit was on the bottom rear, it would force the craft to point down at the ground, and the engines will propel it forward (which is down by the way). Meaning a missile hit will force it to plummet (it would have to be very high to get out of that stall) and that = a dead flyer. Thats without taking into account the damage directly done by the hit.

If you are gonna tell me Space Marines ignore natural laws then please be honest and say they can do things because of space magic. Because thats all it is and there is no point arguing against lame space magic. There is only so much space magic a faction should have and thats one of the key reasons I hate Space marines. Its just too damn much.

I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.

Are their tank tracks immune to jams and being broken? Do their optics self repair?

Do they defy physics and force?

There is no fun in just saying "because these conflicting books sometimes say so!"

So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us and explain in detail how they are able to take hits. Because you will have no real explanation. Just, a conflicted an very unreliable source to pull quotes from that support your argument and ignore others.

Take super will not work battle fleets out of the equation. Unless you can explain how they work too.



Sorry dominant hunter. that wasnt directed at you, more Wyzila. Cheers man

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wyzilla, are you blind? there is fluff that says Marines cant take hits as well.

Dominant hunter: Read what I said properly. Things dont shrug off hits with no repercussions. Each time its hit, thats damage done. Regardless how much. More hits always = more damage.

So if you wont believe 1 mortar hit, then imagine 3 mortar hits and 15 Greande round hits. The damage all scales up.

To say anything else is pretty much saying:

"well magic!"

They are not immune to this. Marines will die very easily, its pretty simple to imagine. Just think about it with actual physics etc.

So for example. Crappy SM flyer (lm gonna humour you guys and pretend it can fly) gets hit by a missile. The force of that missile (assuming it does no damage) will force that craft in a different direction. That crafts angines are propelling it. Say the hit was on the bottom rear, it would force the craft to point down at the ground, and the engines will propel it forward (which is down by the way). Meaning a missile hit will force it to plummet (it would have to be very high to get out of that stall) and that = a dead flyer. Thats without taking into account the damage directly done by the hit.

If you are gonna tell me Space Marines ignore natural laws then please be honest and say they can do things because of space magic. Because thats all it is and there is no point arguing against lame space magic. There is only so much space magic a faction should have and thats one of the key reasons I hate Space marines. Its just too damn much.

I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.

Are their tank tracks immune to jams and being broken? Do their optics self repair?

Do they defy physics and force?

There is no fun in just saying "because these conflicting books sometimes say so!"

So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us and explain in detail how they are able to take hits. Because you will have no real explanation. Just, a conflicted an very unreliable source to pull quotes from that support your argument and ignore others.

Take super will not work battle fleets out of the equation. Unless you can explain how they work too.

Which exists as well, and I do not deny its existence. However the high end exists, and IIRC actually the majority of books portray them as incredibly powerful demigods of war. I'll have to look into it but I'm damn sure the average is them eating lasguns without fail.

But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.

Your figures can be true. If a marine takes one mortar hit he would only be minimally damaged. A guardsman would get blown apart, as would a current day earth marine.

So if the marine took enough hits, yah, he would die.

But they are not gonna fight it your way. By the time you get mortars setup, if you ever do, the orbital bombardment and precision strikes would have destroyed so much of the infrastructure of your military industrial complex.....

Like I said... On The logistical and technological side of things the chapter of marines win hands down.

You defend the land side of things, but a chapter of 1000 space marines would show up in their fleet, lay waste to all opposition as to let the low altitude aircraft swoop in alongside side continuous orbital strikes.

I'm picturing it, just 1000 marines versus all of the pieces of the Earth's Military Industrial Complex?

The marines would be laying down orbital strikes at all times, the best supressive fire ever, allowing the whole of the ground forces and the low altitude air forces to get into where ever they'd need to go and be unmatched upon entry.

They wouldn't stay on the ground for long. No need to setup camp, no need to rest.

There would be no rest, it would jsut be one large attack, no down time, and most if not everything the earth forces have would be incinerated quickly from the skies, from the ships.

The ships that can't be touch because earth does not have any spacefleet, and their ICBM's would get shot down by lasers.

The earth could try nuking the whole planet that would be cool, catching enough marines on the ground. That would be fun.

 Wyzilla wrote:


You ever heard of Librarians or Techmarines? Our communications will be watched over by them while Librarians can both read our minds. Combat-wise, Space Marines are near invisible to IR, Corvus IS invisible, their basic guns will take down everything up to heavy armor, their special/heavy weapons will one-shot all of our armor and aircraft, and their infantry meanwhile runs around 45 miles per hour, dodges supersonic projectiles, and can tank a short from an MBT. Plus they have orbital superiority and can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot. Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly.

I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses...so, yeah, they can figure out that leadership is in big white building in important city midway on east coast of the long continent for this faction, and this other faction has their leadership in the funny domed building in the middle of the really wide continent and this other really populous group has their leadership in a big city kinda near the coast of the east coast of their fat chunk of land...repeat that a few hundred times to get the leadership of countries, now repeat for religions...and now try to figure out how much of the crap in people's heads is real and how much is just made up stories and lies they tell themselves.

Near invisible to IR...hmmm, how about UV, LIDAR, Seismic, Microwave, ALI, etc. Also, where does all that heat go...being invisible to IR means they are storing a LOT of heat. I will give you the firepower edge, I would say that a bolter pistol ~.50 caliber, bolter is ~14.5mm and a storm bolter is ~20mm-25mm in modern terms...which is plenty of firepower.

I don't think they are dodging supersonic projectiles...but they can play hard target and not run in straight lines, use cover and concealment to the maximum ability and be very, very fast sprinters juking and dodging through rubble and wooded areas to make it pretty difficult to hit them.

No, they are NOT tanking a shot from an MBT (I can grant up to 20mm HE rounds and near misses from artillery like 5 meters or so), unless you are just going to use "space magic armor with space magic inertia dampeners and reasons"

Orbital superiority, yes...which will make a lot of our tech toys not work so well, but people killed things in war long before we had satellites. They are not required.

I have no idea what "can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot" means, unless you are making a statement on the effectiveness of orbital fire support.

"Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly." I don't really see that, since without satellites, there is no 24 hour news cycle, no cable TV, no international news, etc...so basically it puts everyone back to 1950 technology using radio...which means that the only real psyops they can do is before they super smart genius space marines blow up the satellites...after that, they can really only do regional psyops (yes, there are ways around it, but I really don't want to write a white paper on psyops.)

Earth vs 10 Space Marines + several million troops + space domination + ~10 years = a planet that is usable by the IoM, in 20 years, it will be able to be dominated by the IoM, in 100 years, the planet is fully an IoM world with only small pockets of minor resistance.

-STS

While I understand your stance. If you where to use this as real evidence in say a court etc, then I dont think it would fly. You cant use a source that both supports and counters your own evidence. So explain your position on them (in your own words) and relate it to the fluff (bearing in mind, the chances of your quote being countered by your very source is high) and then rationalize it.

Judging by your reply, I think we both know you will struggle. In natural terms, in the universe as is, following the laws of nature and logic etc etc a Space Marine cannot win without using space magic as the sole argument.


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Explain how that space fleet works without space magic and I will let you use it as a means to win. It can even use ish tech or plausibility.

Also the US army can have troops anywhere in the world in 24 hours or less. I dont think it will take long for earth to mobilize at all.

Remember millions of men fought in a single city in WW2 (stalingrad is an easy example.) How on earth are 1000 marines gonna take on the world if it takes more than millions upon millions of manpower etc to fight for a city? they simply cant without space magic. But even the space magic you have to support your argument conflicts! So how do you explain how marines take a planet in detail? Without space magic.

 Wyzilla wrote:
But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.

And here it is. I just cannot in all good conscious accept this. Having personally seen much of our modern military's equipment and capabilities, I simply cannot agree with this assessment. Without providing actual fact based evidence (impossible) regarding the ability of Astartes equipment in comparison to modern day weaponry AND how it achieves such things I refuse to accept it as truth.

I realize what books say about marines and their capabilities, but that does nothing to actually support any claims that our modern weapons would be useless in a fight against them. You aren't giving enough credit to our modern day equipment and personnel because either A) you don't understand them as much as you think you do or B) you're choosing to ignore their potential through inferences in their capabilities compared to poorly thought out weapons and armor from the future.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wyzilla, are you blind? there is fluff that says Marines cant take hits as well.

Dominant hunter: Read what I said properly. Things dont shrug off hits with no repercussions. Each time its hit, thats damage done. Regardless how much. More hits always = more damage.

So if you wont believe 1 mortar hit, then imagine 3 mortar hits and 15 Greande round hits. The damage all scales up.

To say anything else is pretty much saying:

"well magic!"

They are not immune to this. Marines will die very easily, its pretty simple to imagine. Just think about it with actual physics etc.

So for example. Crappy SM flyer (lm gonna humour you guys and pretend it can fly) gets hit by a missile. The force of that missile (assuming it does no damage) will force that craft in a different direction. That crafts angines are propelling it. Say the hit was on the bottom rear, it would force the craft to point down at the ground, and the engines will propel it forward (which is down by the way). Meaning a missile hit will force it to plummet (it would have to be very high to get out of that stall) and that = a dead flyer. Thats without taking into account the damage directly done by the hit.

If you are gonna tell me Space Marines ignore natural laws then please be honest and say they can do things because of space magic. Because thats all it is and there is no point arguing against lame space magic. There is only so much space magic a faction should have and thats one of the key reasons I hate Space marines. Its just too damn much.

I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.

Are their tank tracks immune to jams and being broken? Do their optics self repair?

Do they defy physics and force?

There is no fun in just saying "because these conflicting books sometimes say so!"

So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us and explain in detail how they are able to take hits. Because you will have no real explanation. Just, a conflicted an very unreliable source to pull quotes from that support your argument and ignore others.

Take super will not work battle fleets out of the equation. Unless you can explain how they work too.

Which exists as well, and I do not deny its existence. However the high end exists, and IIRC actually the majority of books portray them as incredibly powerful demigods of war. I'll have to look into it but I'm damn sure the average is them eating lasguns without fail.

But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.

I think they're alright in that regard. Predators are decent MBTs and Land Raiders are tough as all get out. Plus there's the Spartan Assault Tank, Vindicators and whatever Forgeworld decides is rare for whatever reason. Not as good as the Guard but they've got the tools to deal with most armored threats.

slade the sniper wrote:

I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses..

That is but a denser layer of consciousness more commonly used by us humans.

Life is universal. No matter how cut off, fragmented a state of being a sentient "thing" (like me and you, or orks) becomes, it always can if it tries to, to flow from the source, and not rely on external ideas. Spoken languages are the most primitive form of "communication".

This is how psykers operate - from many if not all of the layers that construct life, matter, mind, etc. Not just grey matter. They start from the "spot" where galaxies are created from, only on a isolated level, personal, channelled self. Hell, even some of our own human psychics are advanced enough to acess the more ethereal densities at will. Eventually, there comes a point where all is seen to be fully connected - and the information pours in. There is only one language, and that is life it self.

Your spoken tongue has and always will be a factor limiting human's perception of the greater forces at work. We as a species have been conditioned, indoctrinated by so many covert and overt things that no body stood a chance at personal growth, only the things forced upon them, the restricted environment lead to big isolation.

Therefore, many of mans ideas and thoughts are pre-formed by all of these external influences.

The psykers however, remember how life REALLY works, how you are your own god, and that matter is energy. Energy is you, you are energy. The air between your body and anothers is not to be confused as empty space, same with the space between planets. All is connected molecularily, atomically, energetically.

Psykers can use this energy.

Compared to your puny 3rd density slow purely mechanical thoughts and ideas, coming from jsut a small part of your entire essence - these psykers kick ass.