Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?

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**Peregrine**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
That is but a denser layer of consciousness more commonly used by us humans.

Life is universal. No matter how cut off, fragmented a state of being a sentient "thing" (like me and you, or orks) becomes, it always can if it tries to flow from the source, and not rely on external ideas. Spoken languages are the most primitive form of "communication".

This is how psykers operate. Hell, even some of our own human psychics are advanced enough to acess the more ethereal densities at will. Eventually, there comes a point where all is seen to be fully connected - and the information pours in. There is only one language, and that is life it self.

Your spoken tongue has and always will be a factor limiting human's perception of the greater forces at work.

...

You do realize that 40k is fiction and psykers don't exist, right?

**Swastakowey**

Ignatius wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.

And here it is. I just cannot in all good conscious accept this. Having personally seen much of our modern military's equipment and capabilities, I simply cannot agree with this assessment. Without providing actual fact based evidence (impossible) regarding the ability of Astartes equipment in comparison to modern day weaponry AND how it achieves such things I refuse to accept it as truth.

I realize what books say about marines and their capabilities, but that does nothing to actually support any claims that our modern weapons would be useless in a fight against them. You aren't giving enough credit to our modern day equipment and personnel because either A) you don't understand them as much as you think you do or B) you're choosing to ignore their potential through inferences in their capabilities compared to poorly thought out weapons and armor from the future.

As usual, you sum up what I mean in a simple post

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

Peregrine wrote:
You do realize that 40k is fiction and psykers don't exist, right?

Well thats too bad

* * *

Sorry, I kept editing my post, should post it again on this fresh page. Its some deep gak man, summarizes psykers (and human psychics, if you can call them that):

slade the sniper wrote:

I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses..

That is but a denser layer of consciousness more commonly used by us humans.

Life is universal. No matter how cut off, fragmented a state of being a sentient "thing" (like me and you, or orks) becomes, it always can if it tries to, to flow from the source, and not rely on external ideas. Spoken languages are the most primitive form of "communication".

This is how psykers operate - from many if not all of the layers that construct life, matter, mind, etc. Not just grey matter. They start from the "spot" where galaxies are created from, only on a isolated level, personal, channelled self. Hell, even some of our own human psychics are advanced enough to acess the more ethereal densities at will. Eventually, there comes a point where all is seen to be fully connected - and the information pours in. There is only one language, and that is life it self.

Your spoken tongue has and always will be a factor limiting human's perception of the greater forces at work. We as a species have been conditioned, indoctrinated by so many covert and overt things that no body stood a chance at personal growth, only the things forced upon them, the restricted environment lead to big isolation. Cut off from birth, and with our senses dulled, we as a species are drilled for a thick "educational" system, where our "information" incomplete and controlled.

Therefore, many of mans ideas and thoughts are pre-formed by all of these external influences.

The psykers however, remember how life REALLY works, how you are your own god, and that matter is energy. Energy is you, you are energy. The air between your body and anothers is not to be confused as empty space, same with the space between planets. All is connected molecularly, atomically, energetically.

Psykers can use this energy.

Compared to your puny 3rd density slow, purely mechanical (to fit the intoctrinated mechanism - ie. purely fit for your semi forced perception of life) thoughts and ideas, coming from just a small part of your entire essence -

**slade the sniper**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I find it extremely arrogant to believe that a 5.56 NATO round will do more than glance off power armour, heh.

Something you need to realise about 40k is that armour technology is insane. Ork Hide grants a 6+ save and has been stated in white dwarf (although it was a while ago) to be as tough as 20th century ballistic armour.

That means that a standard modern handgun firing lead-cored copper-jacketed bullets is going to bounce off what the 40k universe considers the lightest possible armour worth mentioning.

Um, so...what type of ballistic armor would that be? Class I, IIA, II, IIIA, III or class IV? There is a huge variance in ballistic protection between them...and thus a large variance in what that statement in White Dwarf can mean... Of course, if we apply max feat spank, it will be equivalent to class IV hard armor stopping 7.62mmx54R AP rounds, but the problem is that then, none of the other calcs make sense for what autopistols, autoguns, shotguns, grenades, etc are capable of.

I can grant the following stopping power equivalencies:
6+ can stop mid tier pistol calibers such as 9mm, .45 ACP, .357 mag, etc.
5+ can stop mid tier assault rifle calibers such as 5.56mm, 7.62x39, 5.45mm, etc., grenade fragments
4+ can stop high end rifle rounds such as 7.62x54R API rounds, .300 WinMag, all the way up to .400 H&H, .577 Tyrannosaur and other big rounds
3+ can stop heavy machine gun rounds such as .50 caliber, maybe 14.5mm and artillery fragments
2+ can stop HE auto-cannon rounds, I'd say up to 25mm HE rounds, but not things like DU sabot rounds...for that level of protection, you would need to get Armor

-STS

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Furyou Miko wrote:
the fact that the American super-elite SEAL unit are considered to be cute by most other special forces.

I find this kinda funny, but not in some ironic/angry way...but, yeah...I will grant that this has happened more than once.

-STS

**Peregrine**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
Its some deep gak man, summarizes psykers (and human psychics, if you can call them that):

You do realize that there is no such thing as real psychics, right? Because your post really seems to be blurring the line between fantasy and reality, and is making me think that you need to step away from the game for a while until you understand that it isn't real.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
10 SM's can quell a city rebellion, 1,000 can conquer a planet and a legion can stomp a star system to dust.

Now lets put numbers on these.

10 marines - 300,000 average city population
Projected time to objective completion: 1 to 5 years.

1,000 marines (SM chapter) - 8,000,000,000 average futuristic planet population
Projected time to objective completion: 10 to 25 years

100,000 marines, average legion size - many billions of star system inhabitants
Projected time to objective completion: 100 to 1,000 years

Keep in mind that the average SM holds the same amount of knowledge Albert Einstein had....which is amazing. Sergeants, captains, chapter masters and all other high ranking SM staff are even smarter. A primarch = Albert Einstien + Sir Isaac Newton multiplied by 30. That's one smart son of gun. I'm sure each primarch found a diplomatic and militaristic way of gaining planetary rule and respect. Keep in mind most primarchs respected humanity and as such did not resort to the arrows but instead the olive branch. Konrad Curze and Angron are 2 prime examples of primarchs that had failed to rule the planet they inhabited. Angron was enslaved by powerful and sadistic humans while Konrad Curze spent all his time hunting down and killing criminals. As admirable as Curze was it was not enough to befriend skeptics.

As for SM's.

A city rebels and imagine you are the leader of this rebellion. You are fairly smart, your tactful, you know military logic and you are willing to die for your beliefs, meaning you are a tad arrogant and you won't back down to the Imperium and with-hold your rebellion.

Suddenly you have 10 super human power armour clad titans with their weakest weapons being as powerful as your best weapons and intelligence matching that of one of the most smartest humans to ever live on planet Earth and they have the planetary PDF at their disposal. Their first objective is gonna be having you killed, and they will find a decisive way of doing it...believe that. With the leader of the rebellion killed, those 10 SM's are gonna have their way with the rest of those foolish enough to stand by your side and half the rebellion will be killled before the rest realize their error and surrender.

To take over a planet.
A SM chapter will first nuke every continent on the face of the planet for an extended 7 days. Having dazed and confused the planetary forces, the fleet will drop 2 companies of SM's and a couple IG regiments to sieze all planetary Spaceports while along the way eliminating any AA guns along the way. Enemy forces will have no mobility at all to fight a decisive battle. SM's and IG reinforcements will then drop full force to the planet. Average SM chapter tactics will be to eliminate enemy command structure. This will be a lengthy conflict but it will be done and then an even longer time cleansing the planet but that can be counted upon on the IG.

Cleansing a star system will be a repeated and drawn out version of what I just explained.

Of course, this is theory and considered canon, not to mention this is average SM tactics and not always done the way I explained. However, this is the most popular and efficient way of going about a war. I made sure to include IG and PDF forces because SM's will always need aid in the wars they wage. IG are litterally the backbone of the Imperium and don't dispute that. millions of these sould die every single day to ensure the survival and operation of the Imperium. SM's are there to add brute strength and superior thinking and resolve.

^^^^^^I really think this guy's post should be emphasized.

He just closed the case. gj, brother.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
Its some deep gak man, summarizes psykers (and human psychics, if you can call them that):

You do realize that there is no such thing as real psychics, right? Because your post really seems to be blurring the line between fantasy and reality, and is making me think that you need to step away from the game for a while until you understand that it isn't real.

Take it with a grain of salt then. And don't think too hard.

But there are enough reports in real life to make a case about how there are real life psychics. I'm definitely not going to bother with that though.

I'm not saying there are people that can shoot lightning bolts out of their donkey-caves. Lets say on current day earth we got the beginnings of 40k psykers.

Let's just stick to this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
the tabletop game is meant to be a reasonably accurate representation of how things work. So, while we know power armor is probably better than a 3+ it's probably not many orders of magnitude better like it would have to be for a single squad of marines to conquer a whole planet.

I would say that to picture a marine chapter taking over earth, you go inbetween the "bolter" porn absolute glorification of the warrior monks and rehabilitated psycho murder criminals (how the marines are presented today, and how they were before - I combine both) that are the adeptus astartes - between the god like fluff tales, and the best strategists using the table top marine armies -

I think this is how a marine chapter would strike. Pretty fething impressive, and the dice is in their hands. Earth would die.

**TheCustomLime**

Edit: Don't want to derail the topic any further.

Perhaps one thing one should factor is what chapter are we talking about or, more accurately, their fighting style. Alpha Legion and Night Lords can take down entire worlds with a tiny amount of soldiers.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
KorPhaeron77 wrote:
GW writers have no sense of scale in any regard. A couple of million guard would still be useless against us if modern earth was invaded. North Korea (far from a world power) has 5 million soldiers. Russa, China, America alone could fight off the Imperial guard or Space Marines.

Also if you look at mass invasions from sea, like D-day, show that even a superior force will take huge casualties while trying to land. Coming down from space would exasperate this even further. Let's say one drop ship with 10,000 Guard is dropping into the atmosphere. We just hammer it with missiles and that's a whole army dead. If they set up a mass drop site in say a desert or tundra type area, we would just nuke it and wipe out their whole army.

As for Space Marines, in the real world, they wouldn't stand a chance. We could just flood the skies with Choppers and rain death down on them, thousands of tanks, missiles, snipers...even an armoured super hero would go down under sheer weight of fire.

There are 8 Billion people on this planet, even a million space marines would struggle to do what it is claimed in the fluff.

Solid debate right there actually. You're right, 2 million IG stands zero chance. I'd say...6 billion IG, added with maybe 2 chapters of SM's. Yeah, that's a fight.

But then again, I always thought, SM legions were much more able to conquer planets and for obvious reasons. A legion is ten times the size of a SM chapter.

Idk. It's such an ambiguous scenario. We can compare the 41st millennium to nowadays but we really have no clue what life is like in the future and we cant possibly predict anything. Its all just theory.

The bomings my man. The orbital firepower, untouchable firing positions (from space!!!!)

There would be no contest between current day earth forces and a single chapter of marines without any other imperial backup. No need to waste prescious troops and tanks or low flying aircraft, just bomb the bastards to rubble. Then set foot and plant the flag. when theres no earth soldier left to stand, only puny civillians. The earth's resources can now be mined at leisure. Plenty of gold still left! Try to whip the population into service, or kill them all. We got servitors anyways.

**Peregrine**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
But there are enough reports in real life to make a case about how there are real life psychics. I'm definitely not going to bother with that though.

No, there really isn't anything to make a case out of, unless you're gullible and have no understanding of how science works. And I know you're going to drop this, because if you don't you're going to get humiliated.

I'm not saying there are people that can shoot lightning bolts out of their donkey-caves. Lets say on current day earth we got the beginnings of 40k psykers.

Ok, you really do need to step away from the game until you can separate fantasy and reality.

Earth would die.

Well yes, I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute that a 40k space fleet sitting in orbit could just nuke us until there is nothing left alive, but "my giant battleship will crush you" is pretty far from the original claim that a squad or two of space marines could do it.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

You nor any one else can humiliate me on this confined "subject" in subtle questioning because I don't care for your causes.

And vice versa.

The original OP's claim, the thread starter guy's question, is what I am going on, which was a "chapter or two" of marines.

And the answer to his question "how can a tiny number conquer a planet?":

Quite easily, if the planet is suspect able enough, through sheer firepower and advanced logistics basically.

**pocketcanoe**

Instead of imagining how space marines would be IRL, how about translating modern armed forced into the game?

A human soldier would probably be roughly equivalent to a chaos cultist stat line with an auto gun representing a modern assault rifle.

Bunker-busting missiles, intercontinental missiles, C4 explosives, tank-armour penetrating rifles, armour-piercing snipers, nukes, etc. are all things that could be represented in-game by approximating their effectiveness against cultist-equivalents.

The 21st century Terra codex would probably look similar to AM, with slightly weaker infantry, virtually zero cc ability, light tanks with good weapons and much, much longer range artillery.

**Swastakowey**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
KorPhaeron77 wrote:
GW writers have no sense of scale in any regard. A couple of million guard would still be useless against us if modern earth was invaded. North Korea (far from a world power) has 5 million soldiers. Russa, China, America alone could fight off the Imperial guard or Space Marines.

Also if you look at mass invasions from sea, like D-day, show that even a superior force will take huge casualties while trying to land. Coming down from space would exasperate this even further. Let's say one drop ship with 10,000 Guard is dropping into the atmosphere. We just hammer it with missiles and that's a whole army dead. If they set up a mass drop site in say a desert or tundra type area, we would just nuke it and wipe out their whole army.

As for Space Marines, in the real world, they wouldn't stand a chance. We could just flood the skies with Choppers and rain death down on them, thousands of tanks, missiles, snipers...even an armoured super hero would go down under sheer weight of fire.

There are 8 Billion people on this planet, even a million space marines would struggle to do what it is claimed in the fluff.

Solid debate right there actually. You're right, 2 million IG stands zero chance. I'd say...6 billion IG, added with maybe 2 chapters of SM's. Yeah, that's a fight.

But then again, I always thought, SM legions were much more able to conquer planets and for obvious reasons. A legion is ten times the size of a SM chapter.

Idk. It's such an ambiguous scenario. We can compare the 41st millennium to nowadays but we really have no clue what life is like in the future and we cant possibly predict anything. Its all just theory.

The bomings my man. The orbital firepower, untouchable firing positions (from space!!!!)

There would be no contest between current day earth forces and a single chapter of marines without any other imperial backup. No need to waste prescious troops and tanks or low flying aircraft, just bomb the bastards to rubble. Then set foot and plant the flag.

It has not, and does not work that way. Ordinance alone never wins a serious engagement. If anything, destroying the cities is creating more motivation for us to fight (you ruined my home!) and creates the ideal battlefield for guirilla warfare. Ordinance can not, and will not win a war due its huge amounts of limitations.

The fact you said that really shows a lack of understanding on how a lot of war goes down. Bombing things to rubble hurts, but it doesnt do much more than keep up the spirit of the enemy you are fighting and deepen their resolve to kill you. So its probably better for us to have our cities destroyed. Because most of us will survive, and most of us will be pissed off.

Think about it. Your town/city gets flattened. Your sister died and your kid lost his arm. You gather with the crowds rallying together and the government is issuing out arms/conscripting/gathering volunteers. You wanna get the bastards back bad because they destroyed your house. Harmed your friends and family and as a result you are now determined to secure the freedom and safety of your loved ones. Even giving up your life in the hope they can have a better one. Many wars are lost because one side thinks its a good idea to target civilians and give them reasons to fight against them.

Despite the power you may think nuking/bombing etc may have. Its never as devastating as you think it is. The battle of somme is a good example, or even the vietnam war.

Seriously sit back and think about how it all works. You will begin to see how terribly thought out Space Marines are and how not able to win a battle against modern earth due to the lack of thought put behind the concept of Space Marines.

**Peregrine**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
You nor any one else can humiliate me on this confined "subject" in subtle questioning because I don't care for you're causes.

You also don't seem to care for facts. But feel free to run away and make excuses instead of defending your claims. Just try to think about what this means for your ridiculous beliefs, and why you hold them when you're completely unable to defend them.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

You forgot the space ships. lol

These aren't nukes. These are planet cracker laser beams.

They can adjust the power of them to make it so that they don't burrow too deep and start fracturing the planet, but deep enough to cut into all of your bunkers.

And its not cities being destroyed. Its bases. Naval yards. Airbases. Supply centers. Power plants. bunkers. Command centers.

The spirits of these humans are pitiful in comparison to the marine chapter.

This is not a war, this is a genocide. These heretics are going to die, mainly because they lack the technological edge, ie, no space ships, nor super super soldiers, to put it simply.

**TheCustomLime**

US Army Infantryman:

WS: 2 BS: 3 S: 3 T: 3 A: 1 I: 3 LD: 6 SV: 6+

Wargear:
US Body Armor
M4 Carbine
Frak Grenades

M4 Carbine:

S: 3 AP: - 24" Rapid Fire

I would cost him at about 3 ppm. The reason I gave him a low leadership save is because we Earth humans are not as indoctrinated or hardened as your average Imperial human. We're more likely to buckle under fire from the horrors of the 41st Millennium.

M1A1 Abrams

AV: 12/12/11

Wargear:
Abrams Cannon
Coaxial Heavy Stubber
Hull Mounted Heavy Stubber

Abrams Cannon:
S: 6 AP: 4 Range: Unlimited Heavy 1 Small Blast.

Does all of that sound fair?

**Swastakowey**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
You forgot the space ships. lol

These aren't nukes. These are planet cracker laser beams.

They can adjust the power of them to make it so that they don't burrow too deep and start fracturing the planet, but deep enough to cut into all of your bunkers.

And its not cities being destroyed. Its bases. Naval yards. Airbases. Supply centers. Power plants. bunkers. Command centers.

The spirits of these humans are pitiful in comparison to the marine chapter.

This is not a war, this is a genocide. These heretics are going to die, mainly because they lack the technological edge, ie, no space ships, nor super super soldiers, to put it simply.

So in other words. Space Magic.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

Peregrine wrote:
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
You nor any one else can humiliate me on this confined "subject" in subtle questioning because I don't care for you're causes.

You also don't seem to care for facts. But feel free to run away and make excuses instead of defending your claims. Just try to think about what this means for your ridiculous beliefs, and why you hold them when you're completely unable to defend them.

I'm not running anywhere. Your facts are fine, they work, but I'm not in love with them thats for sure. Too abstract, too limiting. Your sources of information is cold, boring, and useless to me.

Are you trying to be a scientist or something? It's an ok job, but you only get paid to research into certain things, and what you do in your own time usually coincides with what you do in your paid time. Not much "progress" gets made to be honest.

Now, everything is made of energy. That is "science".

**Swastakowey**

Spoiler:

The game itself is so simplified and unrealistic that its kinda more pointless to put it in game than the argument itself.

It negates too much of real life warfare to be a good representation of any army.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

Swastakowey wrote:

So in other words. Space Magic.

Meh. All kinds of space magic to be had. You got star wars, star trek, battlestar galactica, etc.

Its technology. Technically its doable, but we suck at it right now. We don't have that kind of access.

**Swastakowey**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:

So in other words. Space Magic.

Meh. All kinds of space magic to be had. You got star wars, star trek, battlestar galactica, etc.

Its technology. Technically its doable, but we suck at it right now. We don't have that kind of access.

Ok, well im not gonna bother then. Pointless arguing against arguments like that.

**TheCustomLime**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:

So in other words. Space Magic.

Meh. All kinds of space magic to be had. You got star wars, star trek, battlestar galactica, etc.

Its technology. Technically its doable, but we suck at it right now. We don't have that kind of access.

We.. suck at technology? Whatchu talking about. Our technology is amazing and it's only getting better by the day. The Imperium, in contrast, is decaying constantly technologically and is only as advanced as it is because of 20,000 or so years of devolopment. They're suckling the teat of DAoT humanity. Why do you think STCs are so important to the AdMech? It's the only way they can obtain new tech. That's right. The Imperium is barely inventing anything. They're just uncovering lost stuff.

Look at their backwards designs. Leman Russ tank, the Land Raider, those waste o' resources titans and the chunky SM fliers. The Imperium very much sucks at technology and they're getting worse by the day. It's their downfall. No matter how powerful Space Marines are it'll get to a point where not even they can hold the Imperium together because the Imperium sucks at technology.

**Wyzilla**

slade the sniper wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:

You ever heard of Librarians or Techmarines? Our communications will be watched over by them while Librarians can both read our minds. Combat-wise, Space Marines are near invisible to IR, Corvus IS invisible, their basic guns will take down everything up to heavy armor, their special/heavy weapons will one-shot all of our armor and aircraft, and their infantry meanwhile runs around 45 miles per hour, dodges supersonic projectiles, and can tank a short from an MBT. Plus they have orbital superiority and can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot. Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly.

I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses...so, yeah, they can figure out that leadership is in big white building in important city midway on east coast of the long continent for this faction, and this other faction has their leadership in the funny domed building in the middle of the really wide continent and this other really populous group has their leadership in a big city kinda near the coast of the east coast of their fat chunk of land...repeat that a few hundred times to get the leadership of countries, now repeat for religions...and now try to figure out how much of the crap in people's heads is real and how much is just made up stories and lies they tell themselves.

Near invisible to IR...hmmm, how about UV, LIDAR, Seismic, Microwave, ALI, etc. Also, where does all that heat go...being invisible to IR means they are storing a LOT of heat. I will give you the firepower edge, I would say that a bolter pistol ~.50 caliber, bolter is ~14.5mm and a storm bolter is ~20mm-25mm in modern terms...which is plenty of firepower.

I don't think they are dodging supersonic projectiles...but they can play hard target and not run in straight lines, use cover and concealment to the maximum ability and be very, very fast sprinters juking and dodging through rubble and wooded areas to make it pretty difficult to hit them.

No, they are NOT tanking a shot from an MBT (I can grant up to 20mm HE rounds and near misses from artillery like 5 meters or so), unless you are just going to use "space magic armor with space magic inertia dampeners and reasons"

Orbital superiority, yes...which will make a lot of our tech toys not work so well, but people killed things in war long before we had satellites. They are not required.

I have no idea what "can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot" means, unless you are making a statement on the effectiveness of orbital fire support.

"Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly." I don't really see that, since without satellites, there is no 24 hour news cycle, no cable TV, no international news, etc...so basically it puts everyone back to 1950 technology using radio...which means that the only real psyops they can do is before they super smart genius space marines blow up the satellites...after that, they can really only do regional psyops (yes, there are ways around it, but I really don't want to write a white paper on psyops.)

Earth vs 10 Space Marines + several million troops + space domination + ~10 years = a planet that is usable by the IoM, in 20 years, it will be able to be dominated by the IoM, in 100 years, the planet is fully an IoM world with only small pockets of minor resistance.

-STS

Power armor is made of magic, which is pretty clear given that part of it is made of admantanium, which we know is a naturally occurring element/ore like Iron, which breaks science so hard it's silly given that it'd have to be a stable atom with an atomic number over 119.. which really just doesn't work at all. W40K for a very long while, since probably around the third/fourth edition, has been a Eurofantasy set in space, not sci fi, and certainly not hard sci fi. Ceramite as well might be an alloy we may very well never achieve, or is indeed impossible to create in a real universe.

Really though, you'd think the Chaos Gods would tip people off that W40K runs off bulls***ium. The only thing about W40K you could actually call semi-realistic is void-warfare.... which is surprisingly something that W40K does very well in a fairly realistic manner. It's a shame BFG got killed.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

Swastakowey wrote:

Ok, well im not gonna bother then. Pointless arguing against arguments like that.

But, this is the story. The 1000 marines with their invasion fleet, or whatever you wanna call it, destroys the gak out of the puny earth ground forces with their unopposed starship attacks.

The ground forces get there and whats left of earth's resistance is easily dispatched.

That is how a chapter invades a world all by itself. These marines are incalculably good at surviving and killing all opposition, using all of their resources to their best advantage, and with a planet like earth wits a cakewalk. No need for any back, just the single chapter. Bada boom bada bing.

**Peregrine**

Swastakowey wrote:
It has not, and does not work that way. Ordinance alone never wins a serious engagement. If anything, destroying the cities is creating more motivation for us to fight (you ruined my home!) and creates the ideal battlefield for guirilla warfare. Ordinance can not, and will not win a war due its huge amounts of limitations.

Too be fair, this is only true because in the real world we have moral limits on the use of mass destruction and aren't willing to genocide millions of people to win a war. This isn't true in 40k, where most factions will gladly nuke a target until everyone is dead and consider the civilian casualties a nice side bonus that saves the effort of rounding them up and exterminating them later. You can't have guerrilla warfare when you're fighting an opponent that will turn an entire country into a lake of molten rock every time you kill a single soldier.

Think about it. Your town/city gets flattened. Your sister died and your kid lost his arm. You gather with the crowds rallying together and the government is issuing out arms/conscripting/gathering volunteers. You wanna get the bastards back bad because they destroyed your house. Harmed your friends and family and as a result you are now determined to secure the freedom and safety of your loved ones. Even giving up your life in the hope they can have a better one.

Except that's not really the proper comparison. Here's a better one.

Your entire town/city gets is now a sea of molten rock after being nuked from orbit, as part of an orbital bombardment that killed a hundred million of your fellow citizens in the first 24 hours. Everyone within 50 miles of the city is dead, including your entire family (but hey, at least their deaths were probably painless), but you were driving home from a business trip and were lucky enough to be in the middle of nowhere. You've heard a few rumors of people trying to organize to fight back, but getting nuked from orbit as soon as more than ten people gathered in one place. And you're really not sure how you could fight back, since the entire invading force is still in orbit and everything even vaguely resembling a military base is a glowing crater. You grab your rifle and wait for the right moment to strike, but you never get a chance. When the invading troops finally do arrive there is no opportunity to hide among the civilian population and prepare an ambush, as the last thing you see is the extermination squads mercilessly executing every human they see. Because your rifle is hidden out of sight when the extermination squads arrive you never even get to fire a shot before you are blown in half by a bolter round.

Despite the power you may think nuking/bombing etc may have. Its never as devastating as you think it is. The battle of somme is a good example, or even the vietnam war.

No, those really aren't good examples because they still involve real-world reluctance to slaughter civilians. Vietnam fought by 40k standards wouldn't have involved occasional civilian casualties from careless bombing, it would have been a campaign of extermination where anyone who isn't part of the US military is shot on sight and whole cities are bombed off the map to make room for US settlers to build on.

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DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
I'm not running anywhere. Your facts are fine, they work, but I'm not in love with them thats for sure. Too abstract, too limiting. Your sources of information is cold, boring, and useless to me.

IOW, "your facts get in the way of enjoying my magical fantasy world where I'm a wizard and cast magic spells and stuff". Again, please try to learn the difference between fantasy and reality.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

TheCustomLime wrote:

We.. suck at technology? Whatchu talking about. Our technology is amazing and it's only getting better by the day. The Imperium, in contrast, is decaying constantly technologically and is only as advanced as it is because of 20,000 or so years of devolopment. They're suckling the teat of DAoT humanity. Why do you think STCs are so important to the AdMech? It's the only way they can obtain new tech. That's right. The Imperium is barely inventing anything. They're just uncovering lost stuff.

Look at their backwards designs. Leman Russ tank, the Land Raider, those waste o' resources titans and the chunky SM fliers. The Imperium very much sucks at technology and they're getting worse by the day. It's their downfall. No matter how powerful Space Marines are it'll get to a point where not even they can hold the Imperium together because the Imperium sucks at technology.

We do not have the technological advancements of adeptus astartes. Not by a long shot. Our tech sucks compared to everything 40K has.

**TheCustomLime**

Of course it does because it was written that way. Same for Mass Effect, Star Wars, whatever this Culture series Peregrine likes to mention and insert favorite sci-fi franchise here. They were written to be better than us. WH40k just happens to be written very poorly in that regard.

**Swastakowey**

Peregrine wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
It has not, and does not work that way. Ordinance alone never wins a serious engagement. If anything, destroying the cities is creating more motivation for us to fight (you ruined my home!) and creates the ideal battlefield for guirilla warfare. Ordinance can not, and will not win a war due its huge amounts of limitations.

Too be fair, this is only true because in the real world we have moral limits on the use of mass destruction and aren't willing to genocide millions of people to win a war. This isn't true in 40k, where most factions will gladly nuke a target until everyone is dead and consider the civilian casualties a nice side bonus that saves the effort of rounding them up and exterminating them later. You can't have guerrilla warfare when you're fighting an opponent that will turn an entire country into a lake of molten rock every time you kill a single soldier.

Think about it. Your town/city gets flattened. Your sister died and your kid lost his arm. You gather with the crowds rallying together and the government is issuing out arms/conscripting/gathering volunteers. You wanna get the bastards back bad because they destroyed your house. Harmed your friends and family and as a result you are now determined to secure the freedom and safety of your loved ones. Even giving up your life in the hope they can have a better one.

Except that's not really the proper comparison. Here's a better one.

Your entire town/city gets is now a sea of molten rock after being nuked from orbit, as part of an orbital bombardment that killed a hundred million of your fellow citizens in the first 24 hours. Everyone within 50 miles of the city is dead, including your entire family (but hey, at least their deaths were probably painless), but you were driving home from a business trip and were lucky enough to be in the middle of nowhere. You've heard a few rumors of people trying to organize to fight back, but getting nuked from orbit as soon as more than ten people gathered in one place. And you're really not sure how you could fight back, since the entire invading force is still in orbit and everything even vaguely resembling a military base is a glowing crater. You grab your rifle and wait for the right moment to strike, but you never get a chance. When the invading troops finally do arrive there is no opportunity to hide among the civilian population and prepare an ambush, as the last thing you see is the extermination squads mercilessly executing every human they see. Because your rifle is hidden out of sight when the extermination squads arrive you never even get to fire a shot before you are blown in half by a bolter round.

Despite the power you may think nuking/bombing etc may have. Its never as devastating as you think it is. The battle of somme is a good example, or even the vietnam war.

No, those really aren't good examples because they still involve real-world reluctance to slaughter civilians. Vietnam fought by 40k standards wouldn't have involved occasional civilian casualties from careless bombing, it would have been a campaign of extermination where anyone who isn't part of the US military is shot on sight and whole cities are bombed off the map to make room for US settlers to build on.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
I'm not running anywhere. Your facts are fine, they work, but I'm not in love with them thats for sure. Too abstract, too limiting. Your sources of information is cold, boring, and useless to me.

IOW, "your facts get in the way of enjoying my magical fantasy world where I'm a wizard and cast magic spells and stuff". Again, please try to learn the difference between fantasy and reality.

Fair enough, but even then, whats the point in invading the planet and sending space marines if you are gonna kill all life on the planet and ruin the atmosphere etc. So the only reason they would be doing it would be in a last ditch attempt at denying us having the planet. Unless they can space magic the planet back to normal again.

Either way, I feel like the Pro SPace Marines are constantly moving the goals posts in their favour, constantly bringing out the best bits of fluff that suit them and making up wonder counters. This is why there is a huge stigma on space marine fanhumans.

I have had enough.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

Peregrine wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
I'm not running anywhere. Your facts are fine, they work, but I'm not in love with them thats for sure. Too abstract, too limiting. Your sources of information is cold, boring, and useless to me.

IOW, "your facts get in the way of enjoying my magical fantasy world where I'm a wizard and cast magic spells and stuff". Again, please try to learn the difference between fantasy and reality.

Hey your the one getting ancy, not me. And I never said anything about wizards, nor magic spells, nor fantasy.

Matter is energy. Our science proves this. I/your/our fact of this, this fact has not gotten in my way at all. Your presuming. And thats fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCustomLime wrote:
Of course it does because it was written that way. Same for Mass Effect, Star Wars, whatever this Culture series Peregrine likes to mention and insert favorite sci-fi franchise here. They were written to be better than us. WH40k just happens to be written very poorly in that regard.

Well, there you go. a chapter therefore, having technology that is better than ours, by alot, can easily take over a planet like our current day earth.

The same chapters tech would get pushed to the limits with one of the big races in the 40k galaxy though. In fact some might say the imperium of mans tech is old and failing.

**Peregrine**

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
And I never said anything about wizards, nor magic spells, nor fantasy.

No, you just called them "psychics", but it's the same thing.

Matter is energy. Our science proves this.

And your point is? You claimed that psychic powers exist in real life, not that matter is energy. Please try to at least keep track of what ridiculous claims you're making.

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Swastakowey wrote:
Fair enough, but even then, whats the point in invading the planet and sending space marines if you are gonna kill all life on the planet and ruin the atmosphere etc.

Because the level of damage that would destroy human civilization and reduce us to scattered bands of refugees that can be easily slaughtered by the extermination squads is considerably less than the amount of damage required to make the planet uninhabitable, especially given the Imperium's rather generous standards for "habitable" planets.

**DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr**

Swastakowey wrote:
[
Fair enough, but even then, whats the point in invading the planet and sending space marines if you are gonna kill all life on the planet and ruin the atmosphere etc. So the only reason they would be doing it would be in a last ditch attempt at denying us having the planet. Unless they can space magic the planet back to normal again.

Either way, I feel like the Pro SPace Marines are constantly moving the goals posts in their favour, constantly bringing out the best bits of fluff that suit them and making up wonder counters. This is why there is a huge stigma on space marine fanhumans.

I have had enough.

Not all life would get exterminated, just yours. Any one who resists. The minerals can still be mined, maybe. Jsut another cleared battlefield in the endless ocean of their killings.

Unless they decided to like, you know, virus bomb the planet. But no, they can just eradicate all of the military industrial complexes, and I mean ALL OF THEM. The vast majority of the planet would be intact, and suitablel for conversion, settlement for the normal humans of the imperium. Maybe set it up as a new space marine training ground or something.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:

No, you just called them "psychics", but it's the same thing.

Matter is energy. Our science proves this.

And your point is? You claimed that psychic powers exist in real life, not that matter is energy. Please try to at least keep track of what ridiculous claims you're making.

I made no such claim. I said human psychics. You know? The biggest douche in the universe (South Park episode making fun of "psychics")? Theres plenty of psychic practices that exist, plenty of idiots that claim they can see into the future and gak.

And it's widely disputed.

Anyways, do you agree that matter, ALL MATTER (which is life itself) is energy? EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ENERGY? Do you like this fact?