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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 00:24:45
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Vaktathi wrote:
Ultimately, 40k is a fantasy universe, it isn't really "science fiction", it's Knights and Dragons and Goblins with a Starship Troopers texture pack. From any sort of realistic perspective, given the figures and stats published by GW, it falls apart very rapidly once analyzed.
This... This is not really something the Marines are unique in, though. All factions share this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 00:36:35
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Lord Tarkin wrote: Vaktathi wrote:pm713 wrote:If only they had some kind of scanner and the ability to read minds......wait.
And they've got to know where to find the who that knows the what, and do so without getting splattered in the process.
Ok, you are a broken record by now.
Look, SM's have detection methods and radar technology you cant comprehend. They can hack into our defense mainframes, hack into our networks and and litterally jack our satellites.
With our networks seized they will scan all military assets worldwide, expunge any information they want while at the same time downloading anything they need. They will find out our most advanced weapons and technology, how much of each piece of technology we possess, uncover classified military operations and more. With collected information they will use our very own satellites to locate anything they please. They will assess military outposts, research facilities and command structures worldwide. After enough information has been collected they will commence negotiations, which...we will assume fail considering Earth isnt going to worship an Emperor they've never heard of or met.
SM's will drop continental bombs, ravaging every continent on planet earth. After which 1,000 fully armed and armored superhumans will strike at the most valuable enemy positions, eliminating enemy command structures one by one. They will strike faster than lightning and hit harder than an earthquake before being picked up to be resupplied and deployed to their next location... So forget about getting armored devisions and infantry regiments in any kind of tactically sound manoeuvres.
The SM's will also have the advantage of the enemy having no idea where they will be hit next. Considering their are 7 dazzled continents with no sense of direction.
It will be long fight but they will most likely win with psychological warfare.
Whatever OS the Imperium uses is so incredibly far removed from Windows/Linux/Mac that a member of the Imperium would be hard pressed to try and hack our computers if they have been trained with Imperial computers. It would be like that scene in Armageddon where our plucky heroes insert a virus into the alien mothership's computer except in reverse.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 00:38:06
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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TheCustomLime wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: Vaktathi wrote:pm713 wrote:If only they had some kind of scanner and the ability to read minds......wait.
And they've got to know where to find the who that knows the what, and do so without getting splattered in the process.
Ok, you are a broken record by now.
Look, SM's have detection methods and radar technology you cant comprehend. They can hack into our defense mainframes, hack into our networks and and litterally jack our satellites.
With our networks seized they will scan all military assets worldwide, expunge any information they want while at the same time downloading anything they need. They will find out our most advanced weapons and technology, how much of each piece of technology we possess, uncover classified military operations and more. With collected information they will use our very own satellites to locate anything they please. They will assess military outposts, research facilities and command structures worldwide. After enough information has been collected they will commence negotiations, which...we will assume fail considering Earth isnt going to worship an Emperor they've never heard of or met.
SM's will drop continental bombs, ravaging every continent on planet earth. After which 1,000 fully armed and armored superhumans will strike at the most valuable enemy positions, eliminating enemy command structures one by one. They will strike faster than lightning and hit harder than an earthquake before being picked up to be resupplied and deployed to their next location... So forget about getting armored devisions and infantry regiments in any kind of tactically sound manoeuvres.
The SM's will also have the advantage of the enemy having no idea where they will be hit next. Considering their are 7 dazzled continents with no sense of direction.
It will be long fight but they will most likely win with psychological warfare.
Whatever OS the Imperium uses is so incredibly far removed from Windows/Linux/Mac that a member of the Imperium would be hard pressed to try and hack our computers if they have been trained with Imperial computers. It would be like that scene in Armageddon where our plucky heroes insert a virus into the alien mothership's computer except in reverse.
They will learn quickly
And this would not be the first time the Imperium has came across a rewinded civilisation. We have Psykers and whatnot, we'll learn rather quickly how they operate
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 00:47:25
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 00:46:27
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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The "Burn incense, depress the rune of activation and recite the prayer of the Machine God to turn on a light" Imperium learning how to use almost-alien technology quickly? I don't see it.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 00:54:31
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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Vaktathi wrote:the ancient wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Not even that, the capital ship in orbit can crack goddamn continents, just drop a shot on every military base and the problem is solved.
How do they know where all these military bases are? We're also not talking about just a couple dozen targets, we're talking about tens of thousands of facilities across the planet. And this is assuming the ship isn't in low orbit where thousands of ground based nuclear missiles could be brought to bear against it.
As previously mentioned, again, we lack the firepower to damage a strike cruiser at all. Strike Cruisers dish out and tank continent busting volleys, we could fire every single nuke on the planet at it and it wouldn't do a thing to it (and then there's the trouble of actually shooting it at the first place as W40K ships can accelerate to the thousands of G's to quickly ditch any missiles, or for that matter intercept them with lance and vulkan mega-bolter point defense fire. Secondly, it's fairly easy to simply scan the planet and instantly glass any and every structure housing anything that slightly resembles military equipment. They have all of the time and there's nothing on Earth capable of even threatening it.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 00:54:53
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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The Imperium is technologically backwards. It's magic to them and they don't know how any of it really works. Not even the AdMech who trains the the Tech Marines. They operate machines in a very religious way that involves prayer and candles. These prayers are usually instructions with a religious bent but the point is that Imperials do not understand technology least of all computers. Sure, the AdMech could study Earth's OS like they do with other foreign tech they find and figure it out but this is a process that takes the most technologically literate decades. Tech Marines will not learn how to hack us quickly. Most likely they'll never figure it out at all.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 09:14:31
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:03:02
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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TheCustomLime wrote:
The Imperium is technologically backwards. It's magic to them and they don't know how any of it really works. Not even the AdMech who trains the the Tech Marines. They operate machines in a very religious way that involves prayer and candles. These prayers are usually instructions with a religious bent but the point is that Imperials do not understand technology least of all computers. Sure, the AdMech could study Earth's OS like they do with other foreign tech they find and figure it out but this is a process that takes the most technologically literate decades. Tech Marines will not learn how to hack us quickly. Most likely they'll never figure it out at all.
Yeah, they'll never figure out mac or windows. Mhm, never. After all, that's how the Imperium was able to conquer millions of worlds, fumbling about with lowly mac and windows computers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 09:14:59
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:03:08
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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1) The Imperium is not backwards in the computing department, their tech is hilariously better than ours, and I have to laugh at you for even thinking for a second that a civilization that has to coordinate massive ships with fusion reactors managed by powerful AI's is worse off than ours.
2) Techmarines can hack anything short Eldar. The IOM would easily strip through out computers, given that a Techmarine was able to hack Necron tech. They're far, faaaar beyond us, and the idea that the Imperium is more primitive than us is both unfounded and completely unsupported.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 09:15:22
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:09:14
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.
And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:15:34
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Scout with Sniper Rifle
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Um.....wow. "Most likely they'll never figure it out at all" makes no sense at all whatsoever. You think super humans that are about 38,000 years in the future won't figure out how to hack us? Just.....whatever. Lol.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 09:15:48
Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:16:48
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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TheCustomLime wrote:It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.
And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.
Of course the Imperium knows how their own computers work. Now your just reaching. The STC's are there to preserve what they have. I'm afraid you have no idea how it works. How would the IOM know how to go about fighting eldar, necrons and such when they have no idea how their own systems work? That's just irrational thinking.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:21:20
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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TheCustomLime wrote:It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.
And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.
They do know how most of their technology works, machine spirits aren't bs, they're quite real and unless pleased can do some incredibly horrible things to you. For the Imperium repairing their technology isn't as simple as switching out a new motherboard- they have to appease the AI inside it lest it refuse to work or turn on them. Especially with Starships, Titans, and relic vehicles like baneblades, which have intelligences on par, if not surpassing that of a human.
Plus again, anything lower than Necrons is fair game for the Imperium. They'd easily jam all of our communications.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:23:48
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Tunneling Trygon
Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland
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This is the Imperium. They don't understand their own technology, and trying to push the boundaries of knowledge (you know, science) is heresy. Cyberwarfare is not something they are really capable of, and it's also not something they would care about, either (leave that to the foul xenos). The Imperium is all about brute force, and their own technology is magic to them. I mean, seriously - they regard their own computers as mystical thinking devices powered by spirits.
EDIT: Jamming is on a completely different level to hijacking, Wyzilla.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 01:24:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:24:59
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Lord Tarkin wrote: TheCustomLime wrote:It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.
And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.
Of course the Imperium knows how their own computers work. Now your just reaching. The STC's are there to preserve what they have. I'm afraid you have no idea how it works. How would the IOM know how to go about fighting eldar, necrons and such when they have no idea how their own systems work? That's just irrational thinking.
They know that if they recite the litany of activation and appease the machine spirit within by activating the proper runes in order that their computer will turn on. In other words, they know how to operate their stuff but they don't know how it functions. A Tech Marine knows how to repair a Plasma Gun but doesn't actually understand it's inner workings. The STCs are needed because that's the only way they can get new stuff and get the old stuff back. Once the machinery to manufacture an item is gone the item is gone because the AdMech didn't know on what principles the item operated. It's why whenever the Imperium does innovate it's usually by cross referencing STCs with each other to see what would work with what.
Maybe I was being a little hyperbolic. I am sure the AdMech does sort of understand how their technology works (I.E. these kind of wheels propel the treads forward so therefore wheels of a certain kind are needed for tanks) but not to any meaningful degree. And certainly not to the point where they can apply principles from their own stuff to other foreign technology.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:30:40
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Frozen Ocean wrote:This is the Imperium. They don't understand their own technology, and trying to push the boundaries of knowledge (you know, science) is heresy. Cyberwarfare is not something they are really capable of, and it's also not something they would care about, either (leave that to the foul xenos). The Imperium is all about brute force, and their own technology is magic to them. I mean, seriously - they regard their own computers as mystical thinking devices powered by spirits.
EDIT: Jamming is on a completely different level to hijacking, Wyzilla.
They can't explore to far into science but by all means they need to know a decent amount of technical knowledge or they don't stand a chance.
Like, I am seriously rolling on the floor laughing at you right now. "They dont know their own technology" pleeeeeease
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: TheCustomLime wrote:It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.
And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.
Of course the Imperium knows how their own computers work. Now your just reaching. The STC's are there to preserve what they have. I'm afraid you have no idea how it works. How would the IOM know how to go about fighting eldar, necrons and such when they have no idea how their own systems work? That's just irrational thinking.
They know that if they recite the litany of activation and appease the machine spirit within by activating the proper runes in order that their computer will turn on. In other words, they know how to operate their stuff but they don't know how it functions. A Tech Marine knows how to repair a Plasma Gun but doesn't actually understand it's inner workings. The STCs are needed because that's the only way they can get new stuff and get the old stuff back. Once the machinery to manufacture an item is gone the item is gone because the AdMech didn't know on what principles the item operated. It's why whenever the Imperium does innovate it's usually by cross referencing STCs with each other to see what would work with what.
Maybe I was being a little hyperbolic. I am sure the AdMech does sort of understand how their technology works (I.E. these kind of wheels propel the treads forward so therefore wheels of a certain kind are needed for tanks) but not to any meaningful degree. And certainly not to the point where they can apply principles from their own stuff to other foreign technology.
Yeah, the IOM deals with a lot more difficult technologies than earth. Trust me they come to earth they will laugh at the things we got here. They will crack up in uncontrollable laughter
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/05 01:35:12
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:43:31
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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The 6th Ed Rule book sez:
"In many respects, it is a time of superstition in which great and unfathomable technology has been enslaved to the forces of mysticism and madness. To the ordinary humans of these times, the peasants and the warriors amongst the stars, scientific thought represents an abhorrent perversity, a corruption of honor and religious virtue. Even to those humans who deal with the material of technology, science and magic have became largely inseparable; the Warp engine must have runes upon its side and the lasgun requires the blessing of the Emperor or the Omnissiah".
(-Page 162)
No. They don't know how their stuff works. They can blow up our cities. They can jam our communications, knock our satellites out of the sky and make sure that not a single transmission is ever sent on Earth again. But they cannot hack our computers because that would require them to know how computers function in general.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:47:01
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Ashiraya wrote:
This... This is not really something the Marines are unique in, though. All factions share this.
Right, and I've never said it doesn't apply to other factions, but Marines, by dint of their tiny numbers and intense focus, are perhaps amongst the most apparent.
Because people keep throwing out the same arguments and forgetting the practical matters...
Look, SM's have detection methods and radar technology you cant comprehend.
Such as?
They can hack into our defense mainframes, hack into our networks and and litterally jack our satellites.
Since when?
And exactly which marines are such experts in electronic warfare? The couple tech marines a Chapter has that also somehow have to not only maintain and repair but also often produce their weapons, tanks, armor, ships, ordnance, dreadnoughts, etc?
With our networks seized they will scan all military assets worldwideexpunge any information they want while at the same time downloading anything they need. They will find out our most advanced weapons and technology, how much of each piece of technology we possess, uncover classified military operations and more. With collected information they will use our very own satellites to locate anything they please. They will assess military outposts, research facilities and command structures worldwide. After enough information has been collected they will commence negotiations, which...we will assume fail considering Earth isnt going to worship an Emperor they've never heard of or met.
Yes, sort through billions of computer systems (not to mention untold millions of interconnected, or closed, networks) with no idea as to how their network architecture or security is constructed, and magically sort and analyze it all in what, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months? You're talking billions of gigabytes of information in thousands of different formats. How would they know if they're looking at encrypted military deployment plans or Transformers movie animation data (especially if they have no clue what the different file formats are)?
Since when was this a thing that Space Marines do? What Space Marines would be doing this?
We've had a few instances of Astartes (actually Chaos marines as far as I can remember) using viruses (with some sort of heretical/warp bent to them) to attack (usually destroy) electronic systems, but nothing like what you're talking about here where they're doing large scale data-mining and electronic capture.
I can't recall any Astartes campaign that used electronic warfare and electronic information theft to such a degree, especially anything post-heresy/non-Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors-ey. Granted I haven't read *every* *single* GW/ BL book out there, but I've read every codex, every FW book, many BL books and most 40k video games, and I cannot cannot recall SM's doing anything on the scale you're talking about here.
SM's will drop continental bombs, ravaging every continent on planet earth.
Ok yes they can destroy the planet, it's not like we don't have a dozen nations on earth that can do that too.
After which 1,000 fully armed and armored superhumans will strike at the most valuable enemy positions
So, assuming they manage to disable a whole bunch of computer networks and whatnot and find whatever the most valuable command centers are, and finding out there's hundreds of them, they're gonna toss like 5 dudes at each?
What's your estimate of the protective capability of Astartes armor relative to steel? We know that are very hard to kill with smaller weapons, like 5.56mm assault rifles. Ok, fine. We do know however that the can be killed by weapons like bolters, mortars, and heavy stubbers, weapons which we have direct equivalents to today. Lets say this is equivalent to the armor of say, a BMP IFV. ~33mm of steel. Well, there's a huge number of commonly available weapons that will penetrate that pretty easily.
Even if you want to bulk it up to something absurd, say 200mm (about the same protective capabilities as the frontal armor of a T-62 tank's turret), we have 60 year old RPG's that are distributed by the millions and spread throughout the world that'll still put a superheated jet of molten metal through a Space Marine. Bulk it up past the absurd and into the ludicrous, say 500mm? Newer (i.e. the last 20/30 years) RPG's will still penetrate that and modern tank cannon HEAT rounds will go through and through (1000mm).
As such, 1000 dudes would get worn down quite quickly, even by relatively disorganized and depleted forces, and could be put down in days if not hours by a coherent and organized defense.
eliminating enemy command structures one by one. They will strike faster than lightning and hit harder than an earthquake before being picked up to be resupplied and deployed to their next location... So forget about getting armored devisions and infantry regiments in any kind of tactically sound manoeuvres.
Impressive adjectives aside, this assumes that such formations need higher commands to operate, they could continue to operate locally just fine, and if not engaged quickly, will probably rebuild their command structure in short order. And 1000 marines just can't hit that many targets fast enough to make a difference here.
The SM's will also have the advantage of the enemy having no idea where they will be hit next. Considering their are 7 dazzled continents with no sense of direction.
Even assuming all electronic networks are taken over and/or disabled, there's lots of non-networked detection arrays. SM's taking control of the world's computer systems aren't going to stop radio traffic or independent radar installations. If armies could coordinate and detect aircraft and moving forces without computers 50 years ago, it's not impossible to do so again. The whole of WW2 was fought without satellites or computer systems or networks and they managed to detect aircraft, react to landings, etc.
Wyzilla wrote:
1) The Imperium is not backwards in the computing department, their tech is hilariously better than ours, and I have to laugh at you for even thinking for a second that a civilization that has to coordinate massive ships with fusion reactors managed by powerful AI's is worse off than ours.
That same civilization that needs slave chain gangs to turn the turrets onto their targets and to reload between salvos? And since when are they managed by "powerful AI's"? Are we just calling computer programs in general "AI"? Because actively conscious thinking machines are banned in the Imperium.
2) Techmarines can hack anything short Eldar. The IOM would easily strip through out computers, given that a Techmarine was able to hack Necron tech. They're far, faaaar beyond us, and the idea that the Imperium is more primitive than us is both unfounded and completely unsupported.
Those same (very few) dudes that have to maintain, build, and repair anything mechanical that the Chapter possesses? They're mechanics and mechanical engineers, not electronic systems wizards. I can't find a single instance of Techmarines being involved in the kind of cyber-infiltration and attack that is being described here.
Lord Tarkin wrote:
They can't explore to far into science but by all means they need to know a decent amount of technical knowledge or they don't stand a chance.
Except they literally don't know how many things work. That's a pretty big constant in the 40k universe. They know how to put them together, but they don't know why they actually do what they do. Or, in other cases, such knowledge is held by so few as to functionally be the same thing.
Like, I am seriously rolling on the floor laughing at you right now. "They dont know their own technology" pleeeeeease
I'm wondering if we're actually both talking about the Warhammer 40,000 universe, because instance of the Imperium having absolutely no clue how certain things work is...* VERY* common.
Yeah, the IOM deals with a lot more difficult technologies than earth. Trust me they come to earth they will laugh at the things we got here. They will crack up in uncontrollable laughter
Except we already have things that are far beyond the capabilities of the Imperium. We have battle tanks that can move at 60km/h and hit a target moving at the same speed at 2000m+ with 95% accuracy. We have aircraft capable of engaging multiple targets simultaneously from dozens, sometimes hundreds, of miles away. We have artillery that can hit targets at 20/30/50+ kilometers and land within 2-5 meters with 90%+ success rates.
Again, the 40k universe isn't one that really works or makes any sense. It's Swords and Sorcery in Space. Comparing it to anything realistic makes it fall apart.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:56:46
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Vaktathi wrote: Ashiraya wrote:
This... This is not really something the Marines are unique in, though. All factions share this.
Right, and I've never said it doesn't apply to other factions, but Marines, by dint of their tiny numbers and intense focus, are perhaps amongst the most apparent.
Because people keep throwing out the same arguments and forgetting the practical matters...
Look, SM's have detection methods and radar technology you cant comprehend.
Such as?
They can hack into our defense mainframes, hack into our networks and and litterally jack our satellites.
Since when?
And exactly which marines are such experts in electronic warfare? The couple tech marines a Chapter has that also somehow have to not only maintain and repair but also often produce their weapons, tanks, armor, ships, ordnance, dreadnoughts, etc?
With our networks seized they will scan all military assets worldwideexpunge any information they want while at the same time downloading anything they need. They will find out our most advanced weapons and technology, how much of each piece of technology we possess, uncover classified military operations and more. With collected information they will use our very own satellites to locate anything they please. They will assess military outposts, research facilities and command structures worldwide. After enough information has been collected they will commence negotiations, which...we will assume fail considering Earth isnt going to worship an Emperor they've never heard of or met.
Yes, sort through billions of computer systems (not to mention untold millions of interconnected, or closed, networks) with no idea as to how their network architecture or security is constructed, and magically sort and analyze it all in what, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months? You're talking billions of gigabytes of information in thousands of different formats. How would they know if they're looking at encrypted military deployment plans or Transformers movie animation data (especially if they have no clue what the different file formats are)?
Since when was this a thing that Space Marines do? What Space Marines would be doing this?
We've had a few instances of Astartes (actually Chaos marines as far as I can remember) using viruses (with some sort of heretical/warp bent to them) to attack (usually destroy) electronic systems, but nothing like what you're talking about here where they're doing large scale data-mining and electronic capture.
I can't recall any Astartes campaign that used electronic warfare and electronic information theft to such a degree, especially anything post-heresy/non-Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors-ey. Granted I haven't read *every* *single* GW/ BL book out there, but I've read every codex, every FW book, many BL books and most 40k video games, and I cannot cannot recall SM's doing anything on the scale you're talking about here.
SM's will drop continental bombs, ravaging every continent on planet earth.
Ok yes they can destroy the planet, it's not like we don't have a dozen nations on earth that can do that too.
After which 1,000 fully armed and armored superhumans will strike at the most valuable enemy positions
So, assuming they manage to disable a whole bunch of computer networks and whatnot and find whatever the most valuable command centers are, and finding out there's hundreds of them, they're gonna toss like 5 dudes at each?
What's your estimate of the protective capability of Astartes armor relative to steel? We know that are very hard to kill with smaller weapons, like 5.56mm assault rifles. Ok, fine. We do know however that the can be killed by weapons like bolters, mortars, and heavy stubbers, weapons which we have direct equivalents to today. Lets say this is equivalent to the armor of say, a BMP IFV. ~33mm of steel. Well, there's a huge number of commonly available weapons that will penetrate that pretty easily.
Even if you want to bulk it up to something absurd, say 200mm (about the same protective capabilities as the frontal armor of a T-62 tank's turret), we have 60 year old RPG's that are distributed by the millions and spread throughout the world that'll still put a superheated jet of molten metal through a Space Marine. Bulk it up past the absurd and into the ludicrous, say 500mm? Newer (i.e. the last 20/30 years) RPG's will still penetrate that and modern tank cannon HEAT rounds will go through and through (1000mm).
As such, 1000 dudes would get worn down quite quickly, even by relatively disorganized and depleted forces, and could be put down in days if not hours by a coherent and organized defense.
eliminating enemy command structures one by one. They will strike faster than lightning and hit harder than an earthquake before being picked up to be resupplied and deployed to their next location... So forget about getting armored devisions and infantry regiments in any kind of tactically sound manoeuvres.
Impressive adjectives aside, this assumes that such formations need higher commands to operate, they could continue to operate locally just fine, and if not engaged quickly, will probably rebuild their command structure in short order. And 1000 marines just can't hit that many targets fast enough to make a difference here.
The SM's will also have the advantage of the enemy having no idea where they will be hit next. Considering their are 7 dazzled continents with no sense of direction.
Even assuming all electronic networks are taken over and/or disabled, there's lots of non-networked detection arrays. SM's taking control of the world's computer systems aren't going to stop radio traffic or independent radar installations. If armies could coordinate and detect aircraft and moving forces without computers 50 years ago, it's not impossible to do so again. The whole of WW2 was fought without satellites or computer systems or networks and they managed to detect aircraft, react to landings, etc.
Wyzilla wrote:
1) The Imperium is not backwards in the computing department, their tech is hilariously better than ours, and I have to laugh at you for even thinking for a second that a civilization that has to coordinate massive ships with fusion reactors managed by powerful AI's is worse off than ours.
That same civilization that needs slave chain gangs to turn the turrets onto their targets and to reload between salvos? And since when are they managed by "powerful AI's"? Are we just calling computer programs in general "AI"? Because actively conscious thinking machines are banned in the Imperium.
2) Techmarines can hack anything short Eldar. The IOM would easily strip through out computers, given that a Techmarine was able to hack Necron tech. They're far, faaaar beyond us, and the idea that the Imperium is more primitive than us is both unfounded and completely unsupported.
Those same (very few) dudes that have to maintain, build, and repair anything mechanical that the Chapter possesses? They're mechanics and mechanical engineers, not electronic systems wizards. I can't find a single instance of Techmarines being involved in the kind of cyber-infiltration and attack that is being described here.
Lord Tarkin wrote:
They can't explore to far into science but by all means they need to know a decent amount of technical knowledge or they don't stand a chance.
Except they literally don't know how many things work. That's a pretty big constant in the 40k universe. They know how to put them together, but they don't know why they actually do what they do. Or, in other cases, such knowledge is held by so few as to functionally be the same thing.
Like, I am seriously rolling on the floor laughing at you right now. "They dont know their own technology" pleeeeeease
I'm wondering if we're actually both talking about the Warhammer 40,000 universe, because instance of the Imperium having absolutely no clue how certain things work is...* VERY* common.
Yeah, the IOM deals with a lot more difficult technologies than earth. Trust me they come to earth they will laugh at the things we got here. They will crack up in uncontrollable laughter
Except we already have things that are far beyond the capabilities of the Imperium. We have battle tanks that can move at 60km/h and hit a target moving at the same speed at 2000m+ with 95% accuracy. We have aircraft capable of engaging multiple targets simultaneously from dozens, sometimes hundreds, of miles away. We have artillery that can hit targets at 20/30/50+ kilometers and land within 2-5 meters with 90%+ success rates.
Again, the 40k universe isn't one that really works or makes any sense. It's Swords and Sorcery in Space. Comparing it to anything realistic makes it fall apart.
Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 01:59:06
Subject: Re:Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Absurd fantasy. That's a very apt description of 40k and I'll gladly enjoy it! For all of it's strange numbers, illogical tactics and goofy concepts.
Though I always thought the "They don't know how their tech works" was a cool aspect of the setting.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:00:26
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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"Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy"
Haha... I think we anti "Space Marines are ultimate gods" guys are the ones using reality to crush your fantasy dude.
You should be saying "let me live in my fantasy and keep reality out of it!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:10:15
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Remember rule #1, you two.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:10:50
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Lord Tarkin wrote: Swastakowey wrote:"Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy"
Haha... I think we anti "Space Marines are ultimate gods" guys are the ones using reality to crush your fantasy dude.
You should be saying "let me live in my fantasy and keep reality out of it!"
Nobody here said a SM was a god. Take your idiocy elsewhere
I was exaggerating... not much but still
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:12:37
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Scout with Sniper Rifle
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text removed.
Reds8n
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 09:12:26
Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:13:19
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Vaktathi wrote: Ashiraya wrote:
This... This is not really something the Marines are unique in, though. All factions share this.
Right, and I've never said it doesn't apply to other factions, but Marines, by dint of their tiny numbers and intense focus, are perhaps amongst the most apparent.
What about Tyranids? Thanks to thermodynamics they do not even work in theory, like, at all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:22:45
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Ultramarine vet wrote: Swastakowey wrote:"Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy"
Haha... I think we anti "Space Marines are ultimate gods" guys are the ones using reality to crush your fantasy dude.
You should be saying "let me live in my fantasy and keep reality out of it!"
Their technology is far more advanced than modern day Earth. YOU are ignorant. And as a matter of fact, Space Marines are indeed demi-gods. The primarchs were practically Gods. Where have you been?? I'm not even sure why you're on this 40k website, because you don't seem to be a Warhammer 40k fan. If you are a realist, then you should get off this website. It isn't for simple-minded people like you.
You are right, I thought I liked the fluff until I came on dakka and read how stupid it was. I simply like my WW2 in space now.
And simple minded? Simple minded is lacking sophistication. Look at your arguments, you know what they boil down to? "conflicting space magic books say this, no data, facts or anything actually real and working can persuade me otherwise!"
For example, that RPG post someone mentioned earlier really goes to show how just the most basic weapons we have today can halt a Space Marine in his tracks. This is a weapon that any man can use (and do use) to great effect. Its easy to make, easy to clean/use, has facts and data to back it up, yet you still somehow think that we have 0 chance of defeating Space marines. The only things they have going for them are giant space ships (provided they could actually work) that, according to you guys, defeat the purpose of even having space marines.
I dont see why its so hard to accept how pointless, ill thought out and illogical the Space marines are. It wouldnt annoy me so much if die hard Space marine fans realized this. But they seem to think that if it where translated in to real life they would work. I mean they dont even work on paper!
Anyways rant over. I have been watching this thread for a while and its done nothing but annoy me...  Leaving now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:36:04
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Ultramarine Scout with Sniper Rifle
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Swastakowey wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote: Swastakowey wrote:"Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy"
Haha... I think we anti "Space Marines are ultimate gods" guys are the ones using reality to crush your fantasy dude.
You should be saying "let me live in my fantasy and keep reality out of it!"
Their technology is far more advanced than modern day Earth. YOU are ignorant. And as a matter of fact, Space Marines are indeed demi-gods. The primarchs were practically Gods. Where have you been?? I'm not even sure why you're on this 40k website, because you don't seem to be a Warhammer 40k fan. If you are a realist, then you should get off this website. It isn't for simple-minded people like you.
You are right, I thought I liked the fluff until I came on dakka and read how stupid it was. I simply like my WW2 in space now.
And simple minded? Simple minded is lacking sophistication. Look at your arguments, you know what they boil down to? "conflicting space magic books say this, no data, facts or anything actually real and working can persuade me otherwise!"
For example, that RPG post someone mentioned earlier really goes to show how just the most basic weapons we have today can halt a Space Marine in his tracks. This is a weapon that any man can use (and do use) to great effect. Its easy to make, easy to clean/use, has facts and data to back it up, yet you still somehow think that we have 0 chance of defeating Space marines. The only things they have going for them are giant space ships (provided they could actually work) that, according to you guys, defeat the purpose of even having space marines.
I dont see why its so hard to accept how pointless, ill thought out and illogical the Space marines are. It wouldnt annoy me so much if die hard Space marine fans realized this. But they seem to think that if it where translated in to real life they would work. I mean they dont even work on paper!
Anyways rant over. I have been watching this thread for a while and its done nothing but annoy me...  Leaving now.
Then do leave. *waves*
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Be vigilant, the taint of chaos is always near. There is no mercy for the weak and treacherous. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:36:43
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Swastakowey wrote:
I dont see why its so hard to accept how pointless, ill thought out and illogical the Space marines are.
'If you'll just admit your favourite faction sucks, I'll be happy!'
Automatically Appended Next Post:
How is it even possible to get 40K to be WW2 in space?
It's like, as far from that as you can get.
It's like hating apples but picking apples anyway because you can pretend it's oranges and then you'll be happy, and apples won't work in real life.
Or something.
Why are we bothering with applying real life logic to a setting that entirely runs on handwavium anyway?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 02:38:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:39:15
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Yes, the one called "Warhammer 40,000"?
I'm not the one making up capabilities that the Astartes have never once exhibited, nor the one that missed major fundamental points of the 40k universe.
If you wanna be mad and stomp off, that's fine, but lets not make it out like it's something else.
Ashiraya wrote:
What about Tyranids? Thanks to thermodynamics they do not even work in theory, like, at all.
This isn't a thread about Tyranids, so I haven't mentioned them much. I'll happily admit they're as futzball as anything else, but that's probably best left for another thread altogether.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/05 09:18:22
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:41:15
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/05 02:42:21
Subject: Exactly how do tiny numbers of Space Marines "conquer" a planet?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Ashiraya wrote:Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?
Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...
Sorry, just had to reply to that.
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