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 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Sorry, just had to reply to that.

Have you asked every Space Marine fan if they accept their race would not work IRL?

If not, how can you make an assertion you have no proof for?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because the topic was raised and they're the major central focus of most 40k storylines and do things their numbers really shouldn't allow for?

 Ashiraya wrote:


How is it even possible to get 40K to be WW2 in space?

It's like, as far from that as you can get.

Because most of the battles play out in a very WW2 fashion. You have aircraft diving through hails of flack, tanks engaging each other at supremely close ranges, massed artillery batteries blasting large areas instead of specific targets, tons of battles featuring trench lines and bunkers, etc. Things that largely are WW1/WW2 era things.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Sorry, just had to reply to that.

Have you asked every Space Marine fan if they accept their race would not work IRL?

If not, how can you make an assertion you have no proof for?

I didnt make a blanket comment. I siad "has fans that". Not all fans.

My friends plays Space marines but he is nothing like the Space marine Fans on the internet. Which is a whole level above any other races fans. (in my opinion and experience).

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Sorry, just had to reply to that.

Have you asked every Space Marine fan if they accept their race would not work IRL?

If not, how can you make an assertion you have no proof for?

I didnt make a blanket comment. I siad "has fans that". Not all fans.

My friends plays Space marines but he is nothing like the Space marine Fans on the internet. Which is a whole level above any other races fans. (in my opinion and experience).

It is a blanket statement. You said there are no Marine fans who think their faction won't work. Right here.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Also, Vaktathi.

I do not know what you guys are smoking but this really does not look like WW2 in space to me.

I apologize, thats true technically i did say that. But its close to true

I'm sorry if my love for SM's pisses everybody off and sorry I am too pathetic to admit that they are illogical and ill founded but I stand by my warhammer 40k beliefs and you wont ever change my mind. All the time all people ever do is tell me how irrational my views are but as you all have made so plainly I am living in my own fantasy and thats alright.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I'm sorry if my love for SM's pisses everybody off and sorry I am too pathetic to admit that they are illogical and ill founded but I stand by my warhammer 40k beliefs and you wont ever change my mind. All the time all people ever do is tell me how irrational my views are but as you all have made so plainly I am living in my own fantasy and thats alright.

So far all you have been doing is telling us that our views are irrational.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I'm sorry if my love for SM's pisses everybody off and sorry I am too pathetic to admit that they are illogical and ill founded but I stand by my warhammer 40k beliefs and you wont ever change my mind. All the time all people ever do is tell me how irrational my views are but as you all have made so plainly I am living in my own fantasy and thats alright.

Not just your fantasy, broseph.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I'm sorry if my love for SM's pisses everybody off and sorry I am too pathetic to admit that they are illogical and ill founded but I stand by my warhammer 40k beliefs and you wont ever change my mind. All the time all people ever do is tell me how irrational my views are but as you all have made so plainly I am living in my own fantasy and thats alright.

So far all you have been doing is telling us that our views are irrational.

Everything is irrational

Everybody stop responding to me already

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Everything is irrational

CORRECT!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Also, Vaktathi.

I do not know what you guys are smoking but this really does not look like WW2 in space to me.

You're right, it does not. It looks very Sword and Sorcery in Space.

This however looks distinctly "early 20th century warfare" in space.
(This is another 40k thing where it's completely silly from a realistic perspective, and you have to wonder why the Astartes commander decides it's a good idea to charge with help on the way and he's in a secure entrenched position, but it does look 200% awesome. )





The vast majority of these videos from Final Liberation are also very "WW1/WW2"-ey.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL87B7EBBF5D4177F2

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that I don't "hate" the Space Marines, I've got probably eight thousand points of Chaos Space Marines, a Grey Knights army, and have more than enough loyalist stuff lying around to build a probably 3k army of normal SM's if I wanted to. I just think they need to be looked at with a bit more realism sometimes.

-Looks at Badab War, then most Space Marine Chapters, the Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks-

Yep guys, definetly WWII in space, it's not like Astartes general eschew WWII style warfare for highly mobilized infantry focusing on VTOL support to drop off and pick armor to developing fronts or deep strike an entire army right behind the enemy. Or the endless hordes of the Tyranids, which function just as a giant blob of carbon that floods the battlefield and doesn't give a damn about your fortifications.

Or the Eldar, who use highly mobile infantry with VTOL transports/tanks to quickly jump about the front of the current war under direction of Farseers using precognition to direct their armies with near flawless efficiency- ensuring Aspect Warriors are always deployed at the most critical locations to give the army the highest chance of succeeding with minimal casualties.

Or the Necrons, the slowly rising zombified metal golems that slowly gain more and more territory in tight line formations that vaporize everything in their path. That slowly, over a period of time that can last from weeks to months, expand and solidify more and more terrain with seemingly endless armies multiply from the tombs underground to cover entire Hive Cities.

Or the Orks, the Green Tide, who in a much similar manner to Tyranids endlessly expand without being culled, eventually reaching a critical size where they become a solid mass of soldiers that attack in a giant WHAAAGH! of charging Orks who don't stop running till either they die or win. While great jury-rigged vehicles the size of Imperial Titans either march, fly, or float by the force, bombarding the enemy with tens to hundreds of shootas, cannons, and esoteric energy weapons unleash a wall of Dakka at the enemy.


So WWII guys. Really.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Everything is irrational

CORRECT!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Also, Vaktathi.

I do not know what you guys are smoking but this really does not look like WW2 in space to me.

You're right, it does not. It looks very Sword and Sorcery in Space.

This however looks distinctly "early 20th century warfare" in space.
(This is another 40k thing where it's completely silly from a realistic perspective, and you have to wonder why the Astartes commander decides it's a good idea to charge with help on the way and he's in a secure entrenched position, but it does look 200% awesome. )




ne
The vast majority of these videos from Final Liberation are also very "WW1/WW2"-ey.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL87B7EBBF5D4177F2

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that I don't "hate" the Space Marines, I've got probably eight thousand points of Chaos Space Marines, a Grey Knights army, and have more than enough loyalist stuff lying around to build a probably 3k army of normal SM's if I wanted to. I just think they need to be looked at with a bit more realism sometimes.

Now that second dawn of war video makes no sense at all. I agree, there was no reason for the Space Marine commander to charge from a good position.

The reason why no one really knows what a Space Marine is capable of is because......everything with them is so inconsistent. Sometimes, there is books and videos on Space Marines slaughtering hundreds of orks with almost no problem. Then videos like that dawn of war video, there were Space Marines dying to Ork boys in close combat immediately.

So what it all comes down to, is imagination. Which I think is the most important trait in 40k.

 Ultramarine vet wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Everything is irrational

CORRECT!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Also, Vaktathi.

I do not know what you guys are smoking but this really does not look like WW2 in space to me.

You're right, it does not. It looks very Sword and Sorcery in Space.

This however looks distinctly "early 20th century warfare" in space.
(This is another 40k thing where it's completely silly from a realistic perspective, and you have to wonder why the Astartes commander decides it's a good idea to charge with help on the way and he's in a secure entrenched position, but it does look 200% awesome. )




ne
The vast majority of these videos from Final Liberation are also very "WW1/WW2"-ey.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL87B7EBBF5D4177F2

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that I don't "hate" the Space Marines, I've got probably eight thousand points of Chaos Space Marines, a Grey Knights army, and have more than enough loyalist stuff lying around to build a probably 3k army of normal SM's if I wanted to. I just think they need to be looked at with a bit more realism sometimes.

Now that second dawn of war video makes no sense at all. I agree, there was no reason for the Space Marine commander to charge from a good position.

The reason why no one really knows what a Space Marine is capable of is because......everything with them is so inconsistent. Sometimes, there is books and videos on Space Marines slaughtering hundreds of orks with almost no problem. Then videos like that dawn of war video, there were Space Marines dying to Ork boys in close combat immediately.

So what it all comes down to, is imagination. Which I think is the most important trait in 40k.

I agree mate.

Its great that you admit (which was a big part of my points waaay earlier) that 40k is simply a conflicting source of space magic info and its up to us to fill in/replace what we wish.

So for me, 40k is WW2 re-skinned (and Power Armour doesnt exist) but for others its (insert world here).

But I think what is being discussed here (in my opinion) really proves how much the Space Marines are a stretch of the imagination. There are some who admit they think of Space marines how they want to despite the opposition (which is fine) but the ones who give Space Marines a bad name are the ones who are adamant that nothing can be said negative about them, bring up hundreds of quotes (which we both admit are constantly conflicted by its own source) and get angry when people dont "believe" them.

but your point is bang on. The real answer to this thread is "only if you can imagine it".

Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

 Wyzilla wrote:
-Looks at Badab War, then most Space Marine Chapters, the Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks-


So WWII guys. Really.

I think the only reason we dont see 'WWII' or WWI style warfare is because we havent really had a war at such scale since... WWII.

teban wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
-Looks at Badab War, then most Space Marine Chapters, the Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks-


So WWII guys. Really.

I think the only reason we dont see 'WWII' or WWI style warfare is because we havent really had a war at such scale since... WWII.

Pretty much. Especially as any modern world war would almost certainly end with at least one, if not more nations glassed by nukes.

I love how Techmarines are some kind of mystical space wizard with electronics, while the Adeptus Mechanicus who trained them are literally at the point of going over ten thousand year old archives with a jeweller's glass hunting desperately for the bit in the user manual that tells them what to do when their graphics card overheats. Only they don't know that its a graphics card, they just know that the cogitator doesn't work without it.

Whilst I appreciate the super seriousness of the topic at hand

....


there really is no need for rude or abusive posts. If your clever well reasoned argument doesn't sway them they're not going to be swayed by you insulting them.


Thank you.

Because painting your blue, that's how.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love how Techmarines are some kind of mystical space wizard with electronics, while the Adeptus Mechanicus who trained them are literally at the point of going over ten thousand year old archives with a jeweller's glass hunting desperately for the bit in the user manual that tells them what to do when their graphics card overheats. Only they don't know that its a graphics card, they just know that the cogitator doesn't work without it.

Because they're Space Marines and that automatically makes them better than the AdMech?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

How do they know who the president is? They don't speak our language. How do they know where he is? They don't know the lay out of old Terra.

How can Space Marines outmaneuver us? Our tanks are faster. Our jet fighters are faster than even the vaunted Thunder Hawk and can shoot them from over the horizon. Our artillery is more accurate than theirs.

But yeah, they're major one up on us is their star ships. We can do nothing about those even if we launched everything we had at them. We can't even reach them unless they we're dumb enough to "park" them in low orbit.

"Forget all your preconceptions of war, of battle-lines clashing in the churned ground. Your mission is to attack before the foe even realises that the war has begun, to strike hard at those vital weaknesses that all armies possess, but that no commander will admit to. Under my tutelage you will learn how to seek out such fragilities and smite them with every weapon at your disposal. Master these duties and I will have nothing more to teach, and you will truly be a Space Marine."
Sergeant Torias Telion, Ultramarines 10th Company[1c]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"More lightly armed and armoured than full Battle brothers, their role is to range ahead of the main Space Marine force, preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence - causing as much chaos and disruption as possible.[1a][2]"

Scouts are fully responsible and capable of finding out who the leader is.

And yet:

"As part of a Scout Squad, a Scout enters combat for the first time as a skirmisher, or an infiltrator. Relying on stealth rather than brute force, Scouts slip behind enemy lines, gather intelligence, destroy strategic targets, and capture or assassinate key enemy commanders, then fade away before the enemy has had a chance to react".

I can go all day.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

LOL If we were invaded by a 1000 space marines (doesnt matter what chapter) we would slowly lose hell it could be a couple months but they would be devastating not much would hurt a marine besides nukes, A-10 machine gun, or tank rounds. I think they would take us over easily cause if there are 1000 of them i am thinking of space marine vehicles which can out match anything we have or will have in the next 30 years!

just to quote Roboute girlyman
"send a squad of spacemarines take a city, send a company take the country, send the chapter take the world"

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
"Forget all your preconceptions of war, of battle-lines clashing in the churned ground. Your mission is to attack before the foe even realises that the war has begun, to strike hard at those vital weaknesses that all armies possess, but that no commander will admit to. Under my tutelage you will learn how to seek out such fragilities and smite them with every weapon at your disposal. Master these duties and I will have nothing more to teach, and you will truly be a Space Marine."
Sergeant Torias Telion, Ultramarines 10th Company[1c]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"More lightly armed and armoured than full Battle brothers, their role is to range ahead of the main Space Marine force, preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence - causing as much chaos and disruption as possible.[1a][2]"

Scouts are fully responsible and capable of finding out who the leader is.

Okay. Here is the problem with that: Everyone of importance on modern earth dresses exactly the same. How would a Space Marine tell who is the Grand Poobah? Is it the man with the most lavish palace? Or is it the man who inhabits a building that looks like every other building in that city but is more heavily guarded? Is it the woman in Germany? She looks important. Is it your average celebrity who is celebrated by the masses? Is it Dear Leader? The Emperor of Japan? Is it the Governor of California? They don't speak our language and we are very culturally foreign against the Imperium.

But the Scouts manage to find things out about other cultures despite speaking a foreign language so I'll chalk that one up to suspension of disbelief. They figure out it's Mr. Obama himself. Then what? He's heavily guarded by the best our country has to offer. But they have space tech so I guess they could snipe him. Then what? Another one will take over and they'll never know about it because they don't speak our language. Sure, they can see a man wearing a suit is speaking on TV but not knowing what he is talking about he could be a white house speaker talking about the assassination or Kerry accepting his role as President.

My point is that Marines are ill equipped to perform wet work like that. They can against rebellious Imperials because the Imperium is pretty uniform when it comes to how governor's act. They live in the biggest hut in the village. Against other enemies it's also easy to figure out since they'll be wearing the shiniest gak of all. But against a civ who's leaders are near identical in appearance, who has a chain of command near unheard of to the Imperium and who speaks a foreign language? Not easy. Better to nuke everything.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
"Forget all your preconceptions of war, of battle-lines clashing in the churned ground. Your mission is to attack before the foe even realises that the war has begun, to strike hard at those vital weaknesses that all armies possess, but that no commander will admit to. Under my tutelage you will learn how to seek out such fragilities and smite them with every weapon at your disposal. Master these duties and I will have nothing more to teach, and you will truly be a Space Marine."
Sergeant Torias Telion, Ultramarines 10th Company[1c]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"More lightly armed and armoured than full Battle brothers, their role is to range ahead of the main Space Marine force, preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence - causing as much chaos and disruption as possible.[1a][2]"

Scouts are fully responsible and capable of finding out who the leader is.

Okay. Here is the problem with that: Everyone of importance on modern earth dresses exactly the same. How would a Space Marine tell who is the Grand Poobah? Is it the man with the most lavish palace? Or is it the man who inhabits a building that looks like every other building in that city but is more heavily guarded? Is it the woman in Germany? She looks important. Is it your average celebrity who is celebrated by the masses? Is it Dear Leader? The Emperor of Japan? Is it the Governor of California? They don't speak our language and we are very culturally foreign against the Imperium.

But the Scouts manage to find things out about other cultures despite speaking a foreign language so I'll chalk that one up to suspension of disbelief. They figure out it's Mr. Obama himself. Then what? He's heavily guarded by the best our country has to offer. But they have space tech so I guess they could snipe him. Then what? Another one will take over and they'll never know about it because they don't speak our language. Sure, they can see a man wearing a suit is speaking on TV but not knowing what he is talking about he could be a white house speaker talking about the assassination or Kerry accepting his role as President.

My point is that Marines are ill equipped to perform wet work like that. They can against rebellious Imperials because the Imperium is pretty uniform when it comes to how governor's act. They live in the biggest hut in the village. Against other enemies it's also easy to figure out since they'll be wearing the shiniest gak of all. But against a civ who's leaders are near identical in appearance, who has a chain of command near unheard of to the Imperium and who speaks a foreign language? Not easy. Better to nuke everything.

Haha. Okay, lets talk about when the U.S. invaded Mogadishu. We spoke a different language than the Somalians but we still found out about Mohamed Farrah Aidid being their overall leader. We also found out about several other Somalian leaders and had them captured. To add, all those men looked almost the same. They had no fancy suits and no 200 square foot mansions but we found them anyway.

It can be done, and it will be done. Just because they speak a different language doesnt mean its now hopeless and impossible to gather intelligence.

I think this is one of the main problems i havewhen discussing these kinds of things. when people explain why they dont think its possible the answer they get back is "well there space marines of course that doesnt apply to them."

in my opinon they are good but too few. and its the numbers that will work against them in the end, the demi-god thing other people see them as is not something that i personally like or share.

I also would add that i think the idea of them invading earth is a bit sily. silly but interesting.

Boneville wrote:
I think this is one of the main problems i havewhen discussing these kinds of things. when people explain why they dont think its possible the answer they get back is "well there space marines of course that doesnt apply to them."

in my opinon they are good but too few. and its the numbers that will work against them in the end, the demi-god thing other people see them as is not something that i personally like or share.

I also would add that i think the idea of them invading earth is a bit sily. silly but interesting.

It's not uniform to imagine 1000 beings, superhuman or not to conquer earth.

I dont even remember whether i said SM's would take earth or not with those numbers, perhaps I did to spite all the people on here that hate SM's so much, but it probably wouldnt work. However, throw 100 million IG with those 1000 SM's then yeah, earth doesnt stand a single chance.

I just think its ridiculous to think that modern earth somehow has better technology than the IOM. I doubt modern earth even holds 10% of the knowledge the IOM has about technology. Absurd

Now I dont want anyone on here saying i am one of those "cuz they're SM's" kind of fanboys. Thats an ignorant and senseless explanation and I will not indulge in any such idiocy. I am merely frustrated with the amount of SM hate recieved on this post, especially in the beginning. We are passionate fans just as any other fanboys/girls that stay lovingly protective of their army. SM's recieve so much hate because they are always on the covers of anything warhammer 40k related and it leads to others who dont admire the SM's as much to get angry.

Well, dont get angry at the fans, be angry with GW and its many idiosyncrasies

 TheCustomLime wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

How do they know who the president is? They don't speak our language. How do they know where he is? They don't know the lay out of old Terra.

Ok, maybe not the president, but the are going to recognize important targets like oil refineries, fleets and other stuff.

How can Space Marines outmaneuver us? Our tanks are faster. Our jet fighters are faster than even the vaunted Thunder Hawk and can shoot them from over the horizon. Our artillery is more accurate than theirs.

A Thunderhawk is capable of reaching orbit, for that feat alone it must be far faster than any jet. No modern missile can make a direct hit to something that fast, in fact, our modern AA missiles are not meant to hit directly, but to cause damage with proximity explosions, and that isn't going to do anything to something with the armor of a tank.