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 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
There are times when mundane firepower in possession of civilians is laughably inefficient. When it comes to Space Marines in the fluff, lasguns and autoguns just aren't going to cut it.

I dispute this. Both of those are quite capable of killing Space Marines even in power armor, especially when it's a number of them firing at once.

That said, civilians wouldn't be able to deliver the amount of military-grade small arms fire needed to take down the Space Marines fast enough, and they wouldn't have the discipline to do it effectively even if they had it. The number they could take down would be in the single digits, at most, and it'd probably just be incapacitation rather than death for the Space Marine in question. The Marine would be back up in a few days and back at it.

This pretty much, I seem to recall that PA is stated to have an efficacy of about 80% or so against small arms and I also recall that someone was able to show, that on the 100 shot setting a standard lasgun had power comprable to that of an AK-47, based on that, modern militaries would be more than sufficient to down 50 odd marines.

 Wyzilla wrote:
That's because Genestealer claws are sharp enough to slice molecular bonds apart.

Genestealer claws do not cause explosions every time they are swung through the air, so I doubt this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Your armor doesn't mean anything to them.

And lasguns can shoot through several feet of reinforced concrete according to some lore, making it superior to genestealer claws in terms of how much it can penetrate in a single attack. And lasguns can fire faster and more accurately at longer ranges than a genestealer claw, and there's generally more lasgun fire going on than there are genestealer claws.

Keeping that in mind, autoguns are as effective as lasguns in the lore.

Space Marines get taken down by relatively low tech weapons such as sluggas quite frequently regardless of their armor. It's nonsense to assert that only heavy weapons fire will take them down.

Some Black Library novels depict Space Marines as able to take on small arms with impunity and resist heavier weapons such as Battle Cannons. It's kind of a grab bag if you want to talk about what Space Marines can and can't fall to. You can have marines that die like chumps to Inquisitors to god level Marines that laugh off heavy AT guns.

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
That's because Genestealer claws are sharp enough to slice molecular bonds apart.

Genestealer claws do not cause explosions every time they are swung through the air, so I doubt this.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Your armor doesn't mean anything to them.

And lasguns can shoot through several feet of reinforced concrete according to some lore, making it superior to genestealer claws in terms of how much it can penetrate in a single attack. And lasguns can fire faster and more accurately at longer ranges than a genestealer claw, and there's generally more lasgun fire going on than there are genestealer claws.

Keeping that in mind, autoguns are as effective as lasguns in the lore.

Space Marines get taken down by relatively low tech weapons such as sluggas quite frequently regardless of their armor. It's nonsense to assert that only heavy weapons fire will take them down.

Genestealers have several monomolecular weapons (I know Boneswords are, tying to find the damned one for Genestealer cleavers), chainswords are monomolecular, numerous bladed weapons of the adeptus astartes are monomolecular, etc. It doesn't matter if it breaks physics, it's referenced constantly in the fluff. Deal. With. It. Warhammer 40k isn't realistic, and never has been, it was a 2000AD parody first, and now is a grimdark eurofantasy set in space.

Also, power armor isn't weak. Tyranids are simply that strong. Tyranid claws are capable of shredding steel and ripping into goddamn tanks, 'Nids don't give a damn what your armor is, the only thing that's truly effective against them are iron halos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Some Black Library novels depict Space Marines as able to take on small arms with impunity and resist heavier weapons such as Battle Cannons. It's kind of a grab bag if you want to talk about what Space Marines can and can't fall to. You can have marines that die like chumps to Inquisitors to god level Marines that laugh off heavy AT guns.

Don't forget the Super Saiyan Librarian.

What Super Saiyan Librarian? I never heard of no Super Saiyan Librarian. There is no such thing as a Super Saiyan Librarian.

If my pedestrian grasp of physics is right monomolecular edged blades don't break molecular bonds. They're just able to push apart the molecules that make up, say, the Eldar Dire Avenger easier. With a regular blade you have to push apart a lot more of the Eldar Dire Avenger to make the cut because you have to make room for the blade as well for the cut. I believe we do have monomolecular edged blades in real life and they work great.

Honestly, they're not terribly special given the setting. I think it's just a buzzword (Which in of itself is a buzzword, ironically) like the word "Bale" for 40k writers.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What Super Saiyan Librarian? I never heard of no Super Saiyan Librarian. There is no such thing as a Super Saiyan Librarian.

If my pedestrian grasp of physics is right monomolecular edged blades don't break molecular bonds. They're just able to push apart the molecules that make up, say, the Eldar Dire Avenger easier. With a regular blade you have to push apart a lot more of the Eldar Dire Avenger to make the cut because you have to make room for the blade as well for the cut. I believe we do have monomolecular edged blades in real life and they work great.

Honestly, they're not terribly special given the setting. I think it's just a buzzword (Which in of itself is a buzzword, ironically) like the word "Bale" for 40k writers.

We do have monomolecular blades in real life. Scalpels and obsidian, although they make gak weapons because they loose their edge immediately. Although apparently in 40K Nid blades self-repair to always keep their edge while admantanium, being the literally impossible metal that breaks the periodic table and sends it away crying, is incredibly, stupidly dense yet stable.

The "lasguns can shoot through feet of concrete" thing is a myth propagated as fact, apparently. No one has ever been able to provide what fluff this feat came from. A thread was even made about it awhile back.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What Super Saiyan Librarian? I never heard of no Super Saiyan Librarian. There is no such thing as a Super Saiyan Librarian.

If my pedestrian grasp of physics is right monomolecular edged blades don't break molecular bonds. They're just able to push apart the molecules that make up, say, the Eldar Dire Avenger easier. With a regular blade you have to push apart a lot more of the Eldar Dire Avenger to make the cut because you have to make room for the blade as well for the cut. I believe we do have monomolecular edged blades in real life and they work great.

Honestly, they're not terribly special given the setting. I think it's just a buzzword (Which in of itself is a buzzword, ironically) like the word "Bale" for 40k writers.

We do have monomolecular blades in real life. Scalpels and obsidian, although they make gak weapons because they loose their edge immediately. Although apparently in 40K Nid blades self-repair to always keep their edge while admantanium, being the literally impossible metal that breaks the periodic table and sends it away crying, is incredibly, stupidly dense yet stable.

It's magical space metal. Perhaps Admantium is a product of the warp interacting with mundane matter? There were a lot of warp storms in the milky way after the Fall of the Eldar.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What Super Saiyan Librarian? I never heard of no Super Saiyan Librarian. There is no such thing as a Super Saiyan Librarian.

If my pedestrian grasp of physics is right monomolecular edged blades don't break molecular bonds. They're just able to push apart the molecules that make up, say, the Eldar Dire Avenger easier. With a regular blade you have to push apart a lot more of the Eldar Dire Avenger to make the cut because you have to make room for the blade as well for the cut. I believe we do have monomolecular edged blades in real life and they work great.

Honestly, they're not terribly special given the setting. I think it's just a buzzword (Which in of itself is a buzzword, ironically) like the word "Bale" for 40k writers.

We do have monomolecular blades in real life. Scalpels and obsidian, although they make gak weapons because they loose their edge immediately. Although apparently in 40K Nid blades self-repair to always keep their edge while admantanium, being the literally impossible metal that breaks the periodic table and sends it away crying, is incredibly, stupidly dense yet stable.

It's magical space metal. Perhaps Admantium is a product of the warp interacting with mundane matter? There were a lot of warp storms in the milky way after the Fall of the Eldar.

Probably not. To my knowledge in 40K it's a naturally occurring element/ore in the bedrock of planets. Which means it's element 119+. Which is crazy.

getting back to the "50 space marines vs a hoard of guys with guns from atlanta" I think it's worth noting that while statisticly marine armor may not be invunerable there's mroe at work ehre. a hoard of armed civilians aren't going to have much stomach for casualties, especially MESSY casualties (like what a boltgun or chainsword would inflict. those weapons would make a horrific mess against a human) people would fire off ill disiplined shots and once the marines opened up with their bolters they'd break fast.

I dont think GW have a problem with numbers, they have a problem with scope

They also suggest that your average human will simply run away, this is simply not true look throughout the history of warfare

The great war for example, men endured for four year's in horrific conditions similiar to the same amount of terror that space marine's could enflict.

ww2 the siege of stlingrad, the storming of normandy etc, most of the soldier's that fought in WW2 were conscripts and citizens soldier's with few weeks of training, that goes for the germans as well

Basically GW underestimate the fortitue of the common man or woman, yes they are killing machine gods of war, but they can die and regularly do in the 40k universe. some street thug with a piece may not be able to to bring a marine down but a large group of armed people who's only options are kill these monsters or die are gonna make a stand.

But with the state of GW lore were marines can survive anything or be crumped by a lasgun who knows, but id lean to the more realistic side than the myth side of the universe, I see power armour more as a fully sealed enviroment suit with heavy protection that allows marines to fight in places were an average human would die, so space and hostile enviroments rather than some sort of impenetrable suit that nothing can kill

but that's my 2c

BrianDavion wrote:
getting back to the "50 space marines vs a hoard of guys with guns from atlanta" I think it's worth noting that while statisticly marine armor may not be invunerable there's mroe at work ehre. a hoard of armed civilians aren't going to have much stomach for casualties, especially MESSY casualties (like what a boltgun or chainsword would inflict. those weapons would make a horrific mess against a human) people would fire off ill disiplined shots and once the marines opened up with their bolters they'd break fast.

50,000 friendly guys with satchel charges strapped to their chests.

Drop heavy construction equipment on them.

Destroy their brains with never-ending daytime telly...

Also having a monomelcular edge does not mean a blade will automatically break molecular bonds.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

Pretty sure autoguns don't shoot 8.5 inch diameter bullets...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

Pretty sure autoguns don't shoot 8.5 inch diameter bullets...

I...what. 8.5 calibre? That's like the main guns of a pre-dreadnought battleship or something.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

Pretty sure autoguns don't shoot 8.5 inch diameter bullets...

What? I said caliber. As in metric diameter. 8.5mm would be close to something like .338.



So something like this, only with the lower receiver of an assault rifle and a much shorter barrel.

50 night lords are more than capable of killing all of tsugulsa, and atlanta, and it wouldn't take too long for them to do it either.

Remember , non stop attacking on the Night Lords part. There will be no downtime for them. They'd love the challenge, even if it is just against mostly civilians, some militia, and some military.

And theres always the warp. Crush everyones soul, and then go in for the kill.

Some of you guys compare the weapons of atlanta to the armour of the Night Lords, in a direct fight.

A direct firefight is not going to happen. The Night Lords are going to kill you from behind, all the time.

A note to atlanta:

Even with the huge numbers advantage, the Night Lords are going to infiltrate your ass. With their superior logistics and maneuverability, the Night Lords will appear right under your most potent defense forces' noses, then promptly eviscerate them - and disappear just as fast. Then a variation of the aforementioned will occur almost simultaneously, over and over again. There is no rest for the wicked, they will purge your puny selves. Thats just what they do.

And who ever said atlanta boys and girls are the Night Lords without the geneseed.... I don't think so pal.

I don't think they actually killed 10 million people by hand. That would take too long and they'd lose a lot of people on the way. I think they did it by blowing a lot of hive cities up, releasing toxins into the ecosystem and other acts of mass murder. Remember, these are the Night Lords not the World Eaters.

Gaunts ghosts seem to be efficient at taking down chaos space marines with lasguns...

If you want to kill millions on a planet, it would help if you started playing with water, power and such, you could cause all manner of chaos by rerouting sewage, power cuts, water drying up or flooding to throw them off valence.

That and making air recyclers turn against people, sudonly that safe bunker is killing you etc. Adds to the fear

how to kill 10 million umies.



step one:

Take your choppa, grab it by the non choppy bit

step two:

find a umie

step three:

insert choppy bit into humans squishy bit

:step four:
repeat 10 million times.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't think they actually killed 10 million people by hand. That would take too long and they'd lose a lot of people on the way. I think they did it by blowing a lot of hive cities up, releasing toxins into the ecosystem and other acts of mass murder. Remember, these are the Night Lords not the World Eaters.

No, considering the palace the Night Lords lived in on the planet was made of people in the process of being tortured/terrified, then flesh scuplted, they did not blow people up, it'd be counter intuitive to what they wanted. They culled the entire population and used them to make the fortress.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Gaunts ghosts seem to be efficient at taking down chaos space marines with lasguns...

People really to stop leaving out the "shot CSM with horribly potent poison from what was possibly a railgun-similar "bow" and "shot the CSM in the helmetless face" parts of that event.

...What? That's... that doesn't even make sense.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Gaunts ghosts seem to be efficient at taking down chaos space marines with lasguns...

People really to stop leaving out the "shot CSM with horribly potent poison from what was possibly a railgun-similar "bow" and "shot the CSM in the helmetless face" parts of that event.

And also the part where they turned the Lasgun up to eleven.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
...What? That's... that doesn't even make sense.

The Fortress was flesh-scuplted through technology and what was probably Chaos taint. They took the bodies of the screaming living, then built a wall of them and cemented them together to preverse their looks of terror. The throne-room of the Night Haunter was made of still living people fused together with heretical technology(ies) screaming from the endless pain and terror inflicted on them. They were hooked up to complex life support engines under them to ensure they could never die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Gaunts ghosts seem to be efficient at taking down chaos space marines with lasguns...

People really to stop leaving out the "shot CSM with horribly potent poison from what was possibly a railgun-similar "bow" and "shot the CSM in the helmetless face" parts of that event.

And also the part where they turned the Lasgun up to eleven.

That too. Plus IIRC it was an experimental hotshot lasgun, not just a normal lasgun with a "hotshot" mag.

Ah. Man, and I thought Honsou was a sick feth.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Ah. Man, and I thought Honsou was a sick feth.

The only legion more twisted than the Night Lords are the Emperor's Children. And they're in a neck and neck competition for most cruel legion award.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
So this has degenerated into a, we are proud of our guns and could take space marines and the you are psychotic thugs who have nothing on marines.

I recall fluff about bullets from auto guns killing marines through eye sockets in the dark vengeance box how to play magazine insert in the shooting section. Assuming an autogun is similar to the type of semi auto weapons available in relatively large quantity in Atlanta, then statistically the angry street thugs would win, at high cost, but guerilla warfare in a city that is unfamiliar is pretty hard. I think another error we make is assuming that members of gangs do not attempt to psychologically break their enemies down and veterans of gang warfare would get with the program pretty quickly.
Just my 2 cents, take em or leave em.

Man, what.

Autoguns are not at all similar to the weapons people carry Atlanta, unless I've been under a rock and Uzis apparently shoot 8.5 caliber bullets.

LOLWUT?

uzis shoot 9mm caliber, so bigger then what you suggest... auto guns in game are not 8.5" caliber either if thats what you suggest... even bolt guns are generally described as .5 -1" cailber

auto guns are very much described as conventional arms in the fluff.

While they operate on similar principles a M4 Carbine is to a Autogun what a Scoped Mosin Nagant is to a CheyTac Intervention. Autoguns are as powerful as a directed energy weapon which can bore large holes into concrete and blow apart limbs.

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:No amount of speed and uzis will protect you from a perfected killing machine. The heavier explosives, well maybe. The military bases in atlanta are your only hope, and they will die too.

Oh wow... Oh my. Is this what reading fan fiction is like? Are you doing, like, a character? I love it.

But I shall address your points sir. Surely *SOME* amount of speed and uzis will protect me. I mean, surely, infinite uzis and speed approaching that of light can protect me?

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: You are up against monsters of war that have logistics the likes of which you nor your countless neighbors have seen.

Unless... you've, like, seen them before...

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: Weapons that are extremely powerful on all fronts. Your society, the city of atlanta, will die. All of them.

ALL of the fronts?!

Ok, in that case, I retract my previous statement and concur with your assessment that all of the atlantas and societies will die.

just make the marines walk through ~900 patches of dangerous terrain,

that should statistically kille most/all of em