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I've been in and out of 40k since Rogue Trader was released. I take breaks when I lose interest, sometimes for 5 years or so. I generally return because it's ubiquitous at any gaming store and easy to find opponents. It's like Microsoft that way; sure, everyone complains about it, but it provides common ground for people just looking to communicate (or throw some dice).

But, price and Finecast are the reason they lost me most recently, and their hideous design decisions for the last couple of years. Stuff like the Taurox and new Space Wolf flying transport, where they look like they fed all the design elements into a computer and it spat out uninspired facsimiles that met the criteria, but with absolutely no soul.

So, alternatives:

Confrontation. It's been long enough that I no longer tear up over the demise of this dynamic and beautiful game, but it's still my favorite tabletop game of all time. The rules had their flaws, and the army creep could get ridiculous, but the game positively dripped with personality and creativity. Undead puppet dwarves vs. 10 ft S&M werewolves that feed on pain? Yes please! Bio-engineered meat dreadnoughts vs. spiritual Mongolian orcs? Hells yeah! Absolutely some of the best sculpts in the gaming world, period.

Infinity. Well, sorta. I've been painting them for years, but geez their rules are not fun or intuitive. I'm really excited about the starter sets, having seen the "range bands" they've introduced to standardize weapon ranges and hit modifiers. The models are exquisitely detailed and have such a clean, sharp aesthetic, I need to throw my models on the table. Please get this right Corvus Belli! People are looking for an alternative to 40k, you just need to make your game more accessible!

Malifaux. Loved the original setting, hated the mechanics. Using cards instead of dice was an intriguing concept that failed in my opinion. The advantage of using cards over dice as randomizers is that cards have a finite array; you can only get so many aces, so use them wisely. They screwed this up by allowing the decks to be reshuffled each round. Instead of equalizing good and bad luck through out the course of a game, they are reset before going through the deck and end up being just as random as dice.

The sad thing is how little urge there is to go back to GW there is, after you have left.

I expected it to be like how I hear addiction ends... instead it was, 'oh, here's a better game.'

I play Kings of War, Deadzone, and a few older, no longer supported GW Games.

Kings of War gets played about as much as the other games put together.

But I have not wanted to play, let alone buy, WH40K in several editions.

I had hopes for the most recent WHFB... and read the book.

The rules... just are not good.

Not just 'not good value for money', but 'not good rules'.

And enough people agreed with me that Kings of War is doing well around here.

Mostly with armies that were originally made for previous editions of WHFB.

People are dusting off their old armies - and some are folks that skipped two, three, or four editions of the game. (One has an army of Bretonnians that was made using several of the boxed games from... sixth, I think? (Nope, fifth... I had to Google). And has not played since sixth.

The Auld Grump

Yeah I'm in this weird limbo where I want to get back into it (I'm enjoying the fiction) but it doesn't mesh very well and I just can't bring myself to do buy back in. I'm equally reluctant to sell off my core armies as I might still play, occasionally, but my gaming has largely been taken over by other better games.

I don't really like to moan about GW and find myself sticking up for them quite often (I love playing Devils Advocate)

BUT:

When I got back into the hobby about 3 years ago I bought the WHFB BRB and Lizardmen army book. A year later I bought the new 6th ed BRB, Codex Space Marines and Codex Space Wolves.

That has all been superseded now, apart from the WHFB book.

Yes I know, incredibly bad timing/army selection from me but that's over a hundred pounds worth of obsolete hardware!

I still buy army books that appeal to me. I have the new Eldar, Vampire Counts, Lizardmen and WoC books, but will I be buying the new Space Wolves or Marine codex? Probably not - because I need to buy the new rulebook so theres another ~£70.

So I'm off to Infinity, with visits to Deadzone and Dreadball.

***edit*** OK I don't need the rules, and I buy the books for the background... but the new fluff is a bit tosh. The previous Lizardmen book was brilliant, and I still read the SW codex for fun so actually yeah I probably will pick that one up. But not the rules!

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The sad thing is how little urge there is to go back to GW there is, after you have left.

I can agree with this. I like to keep up with GW releases, but the actual urge to play and work on an army isn't there at all. But I'm constantly planning and working on new projects for my hobby time - too many damned systems taking the time up

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The sad thing is how little urge there is to go back to GW there is, after you have left.

I can agree with this. I like to keep up with GW releases, but the actual urge to play and work on an army isn't there at all. But I'm constantly planning and working on new projects for my hobby time - too many damned systems taking the time up

My desire to go back has only gone down with the SW codex. The fluff is just getting silly and the more I play other games the less I want to play 40k. And with how "quick" other games are I can actually get in a game or two instead of taking up all evening so I actually end up playing more often.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The sad thing is how little urge there is to go back to GW there is, after you have left.

I can agree with this. I like to keep up with GW releases, but the actual urge to play and work on an army isn't there at all. But I'm constantly planning and working on new projects for my hobby time - too many damned systems taking the time up

My desire to go back has only gone down with the SW codex. The fluff is just getting silly and the more I play other games the less I want to play 40k. And with how "quick" other games are I can actually get in a game or two instead of taking up all evening so I actually end up playing more often.

The only reason I'd might get back into GW products in full is if they release any of the specialist games, and only if it is fully supported and has a relatively good ruleset. Knowing GW as of late, I can gander a guess that they have nowhere near the creative potential with their current writing staff to pull it off in my opinion. Also, I agree with you on getting in other games, since I am busy as of late so it is hard to get in a lot of games how it is now.

After seeing some other games that are about, even the specialist games begin to look lacklustre. The only one I think stands up is Blood Bowl (which I actually still play).

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The sad thing is how little urge there is to go back to GW there is, after you have left.

I can agree with this. I like to keep up with GW releases, but the actual urge to play and work on an army isn't there at all. But I'm constantly planning and working on new projects for my hobby time - too many damned systems taking the time up

My desire to go back has only gone down with the SW codex. The fluff is just getting silly and the more I play other games the less I want to play 40k. And with how "quick" other games are I can actually get in a game or two instead of taking up all evening so I actually end up playing more often.

SW were my first, and for around 15 years, my only army. This is the first time I really have no interest in purchasing the updated army list. Changes to the character of the army have something to do with that.

I've not precisely left GW yet- I want to, and yet the information that's dropped over the last few months has kept still watching them, with a strange feeling of dread and glee.

I only just got into the miniatures hobby in general recently in an attempt to broaden my horizon after residing in Video games and Tabletop RPGS (read, 3.5 and pathfinder) the rest of my life. I never worked with miniatures before and mostly play discounted games at that, so you can imagine one of the first things I walked into was GW stuff, due to it's community presence. and then my response to that.

it still kept my interest as my entire friend circle online who did miniatures recruited and went to Warmachine, but since they were far away, it was just me, and in my town GW games were still the mainstay (the Warmachine community in town is hard to pin down), so I tried that.

First came the Sticker Shock of just getting a base army together for either game, but the WHFB community was thriving at a new store I went to and I tried to get into it. Bought up some dwarfs and some rules (second hand) and tried to play after I decided (to late, bought Necrons and still have them in box) that 40k didn't appeal enough to my tastes (namely not enough model variety for my interest).

It was around a few months ago that the Fantasy community (smaller as it was) went on hiatus for the local 40k league and all my plausible opponents vanished, barring a high elf player who I always wound up playing anyway (and I haven't played him in a month+). After not really enjoying my time playing Dwarfs, the cost to get into another army on the ground floor, combined with a sorely limited budget, all broiled up and sent me searing.

Im sitting on a fair amount of remorse. namely because I don't agree with nearly anything GW does to retailers, consumers, and even themselves, and the fact they claim to not do market research clinched it. I use to look forward to potential army updates, like for Brettonians and Skaven, but after what I'm seeing with 7th ed 40k, I'm worried what GW will do to Fantasy if and when they get back to it. its become more about what these armies will lose, than what they will gain (if they gain anything), and the fact that GW hasn't released a Fantasy book FAQ in some time now, and there's been rules contentions on more than a few things due to a lack of clarification.

TLDR- costs to much to enter, which means to much to try new things. worried about the state of each army not now, but when GW feels the need to mess with them, and a lack of competent updates for clarifications just makes it all the confusing and concerning.

As for where im going? well... one of the 40k players tossed me a M1E lucius crew for Malifaux, and gave me a demo game (with more to come, hopefully) to see if i prefer it. while I don't have the cards i need for my crew yet, the game I played as Lilith showed me the rules seem good and easy to grasp, and that Wyrd actually keeps a forum and seems to just TALK to their customers vastly improved them in my eyes. the fact i don't feel like I'm being ripped off helps, and the Sculpts have their own charm. there's less players of Malifaux around here, but it's got a much better chance to grow than Fantasy around here...

It shouldn't have to be an uphill climb to get into something new you have interest in. I still have interest in fantasy, Skaven lorewise, but its just been withering with my limited budget and nobody to play. OR for less money (slightly less to a LOT less, even second handing when it comes to Skaven) I could get several crews in malifaux with cleaner rules, better models, taking up less space, and from a company who cares about their consumers more.

I can't explain why i haven't fully jumped ship yet. maybe its the twin hooks of the Warhammer communities presence about the net, and the bits of lore im still into. Maybe it's my love of unique modeling and scratch builds you don't see in the other newer games...

but it sure ain't from GW. and I believe if they want to not lose further ground, they need to get vigilant, and do something, anything, to attract the new people, and while ill admit i don't spend easily, im not the first, nor the last to see the price as a major problem. being blind does them no favors when the pirahna's are in the water, and the best resource they have- the fandom, is getting more and more against them by their own hands. we have an X-wing league starting at the FLGS, and that just shows the difference.

Someone expresses interest in 40k or fantasy. someone shows them the boxes. eyes bulge, probably never come back VS-- Someone expresses interest in X-wing. they could be playing in an hour or less. every other major miniatures game at least has more starter kits at steal prices.

 Daba wrote:
After seeing some other games that are about, even the specialist games begin to look lacklustre. The only one I think stands up is Blood Bowl (which I actually still play).

I play Blood Bowl on PC but Dreadball on tabletop. Have you tried that? Much faster rules, worth a shot if you haven't.

I dunno, if you're into WHFB lore you can still stick with the lore playing the rules of other games. I'm sure that the lore could translate well playing KoW with some slight tweaking.

The problem there is you're just looking for a game that replaces the game you're currently playing. I think that sort of misses the opportunity going on right now in the wargames industry. There's so many unique gaming experiences out there, a lot that are quite cheap to enter with their own fantastic miniature range to enjoy.

I think this thread title is a bit off putting. Enjoying the background for a game, or even the game itself, doesn't have to prevent you finding these unique experiences, as you don't have to leave it behind. If you really still enjoy Warhamer Fantasy, then keep playing it. If you still enjoy playing 40k, then keep playing it.

But also denying yourself some of these other games where you can buy a complete, playable force and the rules for less than a big GW kit really doesn't make sense to me. Instead of that 6th Trygon or Storm Raven that probably won't hit the table outside of large Apocalypse games, do yourself and your friends a favour by buying a pair of starter boxes and a rulebook for another game, or their 2 player starter if they have it. Dropzone Commander 2 player starter, Malifaux mini rulebook and a pair of starters, Operation Icestorm when it hits the shelves, Flames of War Open Fire, Firestorm Armada Battle for Valhalla, X-Wing, etc. The choice is really quite impressive.

The worst that can happen is you don't enjoy it and you resell it, and you buy that 6th Trygon or Storm Raven the next week. Otherwise, you just found another fun game to play, and you actually don't have to buy more unless you want to.

There have always been people who exclusively play one game or genre, such as Napoleonics. The difference these days is that GW has become soooo expensive to start or even to continue, given the cost of the latest rulebooks, that a different game can be picked for the price of a couple of GW boxes.

 Daba wrote:
After seeing some other games that are about, even the specialist games begin to look lacklustre. The only one I think stands up is Blood Bowl (which I actually still play).

What they could do is take the core concept of a specialist game and give it a complete update in the rules and models. They have shown no sign yet of doing this but in theory the capability is there. They have a huge design studio that in recent years has been employed mostly making minor variations on decades old themes.

Maybe the failure of Dread Fleet scared them too much.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
What they could do is take the core concept of a specialist game and give it a complete update in the rules and models. They have shown no sign yet of doing this but in theory the capability is there. They have a huge design studio that in recent years has been employed mostly making minor variations on decades old themes.

Maybe the failure of Dread Fleet scared them too much.

I'd love to see them grab Mordheim or Necromunda and give them a gameplay workover, playing with things like alternate activations instead of IGOUGO, different die types, etc. The only reason I even looked around for other games is they weren't catering to the gameplay style I was looking for at all (skirmish). But you're right, Dreadfleets failure seems to have made them gunshy.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There have always been people who exclusively play one game or genre, such as Napoleonics. The difference these days is that GW has become soooo expensive to start or even to continue, given the cost of the latest rulebooks, that a different game can be picked for the price of a couple of GW boxes..

This. thisthisthis. It's so much harder to demo or get into GW games now with no lead in or anything else. even with all the discounts i managed, my WHFB stuff cost me a good $200+ which ill admit isn't a lot for some, but when most people are used to buying 60 dollar video games or something akin to it, its so much easier to spread one of the many games with a $50 dollar kit (WM/H, Malifaux, Xwing..). yes GW does make a 2 player kit, but with so many armies available if one of those two is not your aesthetic being represented your out in the cold, and they get nothing from people wanting to avoid buying their models new, and some are now outright willing to stick it to GW because of their prices.

Getting in the bottom floor for a more reasonable price requires patrolling, second handing, alternate models, scrapbuilding- out of neccessity to save. by comparison these other games just ask less effort, and cause less rule problems. maybe its just me, but GW loses on every turn, minus the currently greater install base and available story. Id love to buy at my FLGS as well, but I can't justify it with most GW stuff- i just need so much of it if i were to.

One thing I've noticed is that gw only players struggle to realise that other games are cheaper, because they are so used to gw prices. This makes the. Reluctant to start another game for fear of it costing a fortune. It's what's stopped my gaming buddy taking up bolt action or empire of the dead.

 Yonan wrote:

 Daba wrote:
After seeing some other games that are about, even the specialist games begin to look lacklustre. The only one I think stands up is Blood Bowl (which I actually still play).

I play Blood Bowl on PC but Dreadball on tabletop. Have you tried that? Much faster rules, worth a shot if you haven't.

I've played Dreadball, and while I like it, it's a different sport (importantly it feels like a different sport) so it's a bit like switching from football to hockey.

 Mastiff wrote:
like the Taurox and new Space Wolf flying transport, where they look like they fed all the design elements into a computer and it spat out uninspired facsimiles that met the criteria, but with absolutely no soul.

The funny thing is that's exactly how an STC works lol.

There were problems with Mordheim and Necromunda in that making it 'campaign' based seriously limits it, and makes early gangs samey as they are limited in what you can start with and what skills you have. It was difficult to make a one-off game with them, so having to have multiple players commit to a term of playing the game would cause problems and mean they aren't played when you could arrange or do a pickup with another game.

That's one strength of modern skirmish games over those ones.

Herzlos wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that gw only players struggle to realise that other games are cheaper, because they are so used to gw prices. This makes the. Reluctant to start another game for fear of it costing a fortune. It's what's stopped my gaming buddy taking up bolt action or empire of the dead.

The other issue can be that GW games are so expensive that it doesn't allow any funds to go into other games.

If you're buying a new codex or army book every few months (a new rules edition every few years!), quite a lot for new kits etc, that could absorb all hobby funds. I wonder if that's why you tend to get wargamers who only play GW, but if someone plays another game then the chances are that they probably play 2 or 3 perhaps.

A third issue is the sunk costs fallacy - 'I have spent a THOUSAND DOLLARS on my Warhammer army! I can't afford to change games! I have too much invested in this one! Ooh! New edition....'

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
A third issue is the sunk costs fallacy - 'I have spent a THOUSAND DOLLARS on my Warhammer army! I can't afford to change games! I have too much invested in this one! Ooh! New edition....'

The Auld Grump

I agree here, though I must ask, why do you end all your posts with your username?

He's auld fashioned. When people signed their letters at the bottom.

Leverage those thousands and turn them into new, shiny miniatures from the people who still want 40k. I spent all yesterday building Infinity and I'm still not done... got my TAG and a traktor mul left.

And then there's the entire Circle Army...

 -Loki- wrote:
The problem there is you're just looking for a game that replaces the game you're currently playing. I think that sort of misses the opportunity going on right now in the wargames industry. There's so many unique gaming experiences out there, a lot that are quite cheap to enter with their own fantastic miniature range to enjoy.

I think this thread title is a bit off putting. Enjoying the background for a game, or even the game itself, doesn't have to prevent you finding these unique experiences, as you don't have to leave it behind. If you really still enjoy Warhamer Fantasy, then keep playing it. If you still enjoy playing 40k, then keep playing it.

But also denying yourself some of these other games where you can buy a complete, playable force and the rules for less than a big GW kit really doesn't make sense to me. Instead of that 6th Trygon or Storm Raven that probably won't hit the table outside of large Apocalypse games, do yourself and your friends a favour by buying a pair of starter boxes and a rulebook for another game, or their 2 player starter if they have it. Dropzone Commander 2 player starter, Malifaux mini rulebook and a pair of starters, Operation Icestorm when it hits the shelves, Flames of War Open Fire, Firestorm Armada Battle for Valhalla, X-Wing, etc. The choice is really quite impressive.

The worst that can happen is you don't enjoy it and you resell it, and you buy that 6th Trygon or Storm Raven the next week. Otherwise, you just found another fun game to play, and you actually don't have to buy more unless you want to.

Me, I'm with Heartserenade, and I've said it before: I can't see the wisdom of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Treating 40K/WHFB like an indivisible, sealed environment rather than a collection of 'modular parts'; utterly abandoning fluff you like and your expensive collection because you don't like the rules or the price of further minis that you don't have to buy; and chucking money at another indivisible, sealed environment experience.*

Besides, if you like big-army fantasy battles or platoon-sized space fantasy, and GW's rules and prices start to put you off, switching to a handful of steampunk robots or posers might not cut it. Solution: drop out of GW's Red Queen buy-to-win culture, and get a game that replaces the game you're currently playing. It's okay. Don't worry. GW doesn't own fantasy battle games. You're not still in their pocket if you play another one...

Although I do take your point about giving other types of game a try: I don't advocate limiting yourself in that regard. I've enjoyed skirmishes, big battles, fleet/aircraft and board games. But then I'd pick up on the points of Pacific and TheAuldGrump: lowering (or stopping) the GW spend and playing a much more streamlined mass battle game will leave more funds and time for the others.

*I'd like to see if anyone thinks of moonlighting their Malifaux minis for In Her Majesty's Name or G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T., for instance.

 Vermis wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
The problem there is you're just looking for a game that replaces the game you're currently playing. I think that sort of misses the opportunity going on right now in the wargames industry. There's so many unique gaming experiences out there, a lot that are quite cheap to enter with their own fantastic miniature range to enjoy.

I think this thread title is a bit off putting. Enjoying the background for a game, or even the game itself, doesn't have to prevent you finding these unique experiences, as you don't have to leave it behind. If you really still enjoy Warhamer Fantasy, then keep playing it. If you still enjoy playing 40k, then keep playing it.

But also denying yourself some of these other games where you can buy a complete, playable force and the rules for less than a big GW kit really doesn't make sense to me. Instead of that 6th Trygon or Storm Raven that probably won't hit the table outside of large Apocalypse games, do yourself and your friends a favour by buying a pair of starter boxes and a rulebook for another game, or their 2 player starter if they have it. Dropzone Commander 2 player starter, Malifaux mini rulebook and a pair of starters, Operation Icestorm when it hits the shelves, Flames of War Open Fire, Firestorm Armada Battle for Valhalla, X-Wing, etc. The choice is really quite impressive.

The worst that can happen is you don't enjoy it and you resell it, and you buy that 6th Trygon or Storm Raven the next week. Otherwise, you just found another fun game to play, and you actually don't have to buy more unless you want to.

Me, I'm with Heartserenade, and I've said it before: I can't see the wisdom of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Treating 40K/WHFB like an indivisible, sealed environment rather than a collection of 'modular parts'; utterly abandoning fluff you like and your expensive collection because you don't like the rules or the price of further minis that you don't have to buy; and chucking money at another indivisible, sealed environment experience.*

Besides, if you like big-army fantasy battles or platoon-sized space fantasy, and GW's rules and prices start to put you off, switching to a handful of steampunk robots or posers might not cut it. Solution: drop out of GW's Red Queen buy-to-win culture, and get a game that replaces the game you're currently playing. It's okay. Don't worry. GW doesn't own fantasy battle games. You're not still in their pocket if you play another one...

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, because I never said to chuck out 40k or Warhammer or start ripping them apart to enjoy them. I was merely arguging that the 'one game to rule them all' mentality is doing yourself a disservice in the current wargames environment. That goes for only playing 40k, only playing Infinity, only playing Flames of War, etc.

 Selym wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
A third issue is the sunk costs fallacy - 'I have spent a THOUSAND DOLLARS on my Warhammer army! I can't afford to change games! I have too much invested in this one! Ooh! New edition....'

The Auld Grump

I agree here, though I must ask, why do you end all your posts with your username?

The very first forum (well, bulletin board, really) that I posted on was on FIDO - and posts had no native indicator of the poster, so folks put their names at the bottom.

So, it is an old habit that I have held onto.

The Auld Grump

Well, to get right into it, I started 40K back in High school with some buddies, but I actually got my first GW minis a couple of years before - LOTR, because a friend had some too. Never played with those, but I've built my 40K up consistently since I started, up until last year.

During the five years I was gaming in High School, I mostly played 40K. However, I dabbled in Fantasy and Dystopian Wars. I dropped Fantasy because, well, it just didn't jive with me. As for Dystopian Wars, turns out I'm not really a fan of naval combat. I ended up selling both. However, a few months after I dropped Dystopian Wars, a couple of friends picked up Warmahordes. I bought in, and actually it wasn't so bad; after Dystopian Wars, I was hesitant to get into a non-GW game. Warmahordes, though I only played a couple of games, had both beautiful models and was actually enjoyable once you chewed through the rules.

Then I went to Uni. I played a fair bit of 40K, and still have a lot of it. however, the last army I brought was Tau at christmas (and a little before then). I wasn't a fan of 6th after having started with 5th. Seeing the problems with Eldar and other Tau armies, as well as continually rising prices, started me questioning GW. The AM release was, IMO, abysmal, before 7th dropped so early. Daemon factory was, for me, the last straw. I refused to buy into 7th, and started formulating plans with the local wargaming club about playing 5th, 6th, or even 3rd as a club standard. The few things I still wanted from GW (Sternguard and Vanguard, mainly) I turned to Ebay for. If anyone cares, I got the old metal models - result.

It was at this point that a couple of friends of mine pointed me to Infinity. I saw the Aleph models and knew I had to have them. I'm currently preparing to get into infinity in a big way (rather than just talking about it), proxying Guard for a while until I can actually buy some proper models - hey, I'm only a student. Food first, right?

Sure, I still play 40K. I play 5th/6th. I'll hold onto my Guard and Tau - one does not simply sell an armoured company - but my Chaos, GKs, Orks, SM and Dark Eldar, will be hitting Ebay soon enough. My Necrons went to a friend a long time ago. If I ever decide I want GW models, they'll be second hand. I both cannot afford and do not want to support GW's practices.

Here's to a bring new future in wargaming

 TheKbob wrote:
Leverage those thousands and turn them into new, shiny miniatures from the people who still want 40k. I spent all yesterday building Infinity and I'm still not done... got my TAG and a traktor mul left.

And then there's the entire Circle Army...

Precisely what I did.

I got well and thoroughly out of GW games just a month or two ago. I first got into the hobby by stumbling into an FLGS and being entranced by everything inside. Being fairly young, I viewed them from the context of video games: it's physically playing a turn-based strategy game, with the degree of customization I've always wanted! I invested into GW, of course, and also played a fair bit of historicals through a faculty-led club at my high school. My involvement has waxed and waned over the past few years, but it's always been an interest.

Fast-forward to the present, and I was looking to get back into playing in a big way, now that I'm out of college. However, the GW "community," if you can call it that, really put me off. Awful behavior from management, declining game quality, and ever-increasing prices killed any interest that I might have had in jumping back into WHFB or 40K. There were two moments, however, that really decided things for me: the rebranding of the Imperial Guard, which clearly illustrated that GW is willing to tear up their own IP for any perceived gain, and the moment that I realized that finishing any of the partial armies in my collection would be prohibitively expensive, no matter what methods I used to find discounts. (To be fair, I did choose skaven, but still.)

Instead, I sold off most of my collection and reinvested in other games. I now have a foothold in both Malifaux and Infinity, and looking at recent GW releases, I don't regret getting out at all.