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Does Psychic Scream always affect the rider of a chariot or can it be allocated to the chariot in order to try to save the rider?

Thanks.

This needs an FAQ, among other things.

The way I look at it is that psychic shooting attacks are resolved as any other shooting attacks and while the rider is the only one that can be affected by psychic shriek by virtue of being the only part of the chariot with a ld value, the final number hits should still be allocated as let any other shooting attacks and can be allocated to the chariot.

It doesn't seem right but it's just the same as lasgun hits being allocated to the chariot.

Here is what I had posted in the other thread.

Directing Psychic Shriek at the Barge?

You only have permission to allocate hits against the Chariot, and Psychic Shriek only needs to hit the unit for its ability to apply which is different than a normal weapon profile which could be resolved upon the Chariot. Wounds taken by the unit, have to go the only place they can, the Overlord. You only have permission to allocate hits to the chariot, but the hit from Psychic shriek does nothing, it's its special ability which deals wounds to the unit. The only legal place for wounds to go is on the Rider.

Psychic Shriek targets the unit, rolls to hit, hit allocated to the Chariot, hit invokes Psychic Shriek which deals wounds to the unit, which can only be resolved upon the rider as you have no permission to allocate wounds to the chariot.

You can allocate the hit to the Chariot, but that doesn't stop the Psychic Power which affects the unit. A "Hit" merely means the power affects the unit, the hit itself has nothing to resolve, but ques the power which affects the unit. As it deals wounds to the unit, not as a direct result of a hit as a normal weapon profile, the unit takes the wounds. There is no permission to allocate Wounds to a vehicle, therefore the only way to resolve them is against the rider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mortetvie wrote:
This needs an FAQ, among other things.

The way I look at it is that psychic shooting attacks are resolved as any other shooting attacks and while the rider is the only one that can be affected by psychic shriek by virtue of being the only part of the chariot with a ld value, the final number hits should still be allocated as let any other shooting attacks and can be allocated to the chariot.

It doesn't seem right but it's just the same as lasgun hits being allocated to the chariot.

The difference is that the Lasgun has a weapons profile and we have something to resolve, an armor Penetration Roll. With Psychic Shriek, a hit merely means the power affects the unit. No permission exists to allocate wounds to the chariot as it cannot be wounded.

IT is a focused witchfire so 2 or more successes sees the caster assign the wounds.

MarkyMark wrote:
IT is a focused witchfire so 2 or more successes sees the caster assign the wounds.

Which does nothing because the Chariot is one model.

Ah I thought focussed was resolved same as prescision shot but its not.

MarkyMark wrote:
Then how can I prescision shot and assign wounds to the character?. Exactly.

Focused Witchfire isn't prescion shot (which has specific permission to let the shooter allocate against chariots)

It will need a FAQ to satisfy people. I would suggest anything that causes direct Wounds / Pens etc can not be allocated to the profile which doesn't have them. We don't have any conversion rate etc etc and shooting at chariot rules only cover from the point you have a hit pool, and this doesn't.

Arguably RAW you could say it effects both profiles as a model (They are not hits and Characteristic modifications which effect the model are applied to both profiles). The controlling player can only choose where to allocate HITS to either profile, where there are no hits, it just wounds the model (Both profiles), obviously wounds do not effect the chariot profile, but they would be taken from the rider all the same. This is how I would currently play the rules.

So no, you cannot allocate wounds to a particular profile to save the model in this instance, would be the same for anything that causes pens / wounds without hits.

Chariots are Vehicles. Vehicles don't have a LD value.

Unless I missed something in the Chariot rules? Where do you have permission to choose the profile your opponent uses?

MarkyMark wrote:
IT is a focused witchfire so 2 or more successes sees the caster assign the wounds.

It's not a Focused Witchfire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Chariots are Vehicles. Vehicles don't have a LD value.

Unless I missed something in the Chariot rules? Where do you have permission to choose the profile your opponent uses?

How about the part that says..... "For the purpose of Characteristic tests, always use the Rider's profile." 3d6 vs Ld isn't a characteristic test, but it establishes precedent. We are also told where a model has multiple characteristic values, use the higher.

It's also a dual Profile Model, and the Rider has a Leadership value. Psychic Shriek affects the unit, and the unit does have a leadership value. What gives you permission to ignore the riders profile when making the single model, dual profile, characteristic test. The part of theChariots Profile that is "hit" doesn't matter, we resolve a Leadership test on 3d6 against the unit and deal with the wounds accordingly. With no way to assign wounds to a vehicle, they must be resolved against the Rider which tracks with established Characteristic precedent.

Can you target a unit embarked in a vehicle?

The Rider isn't embarked, so that's not relevant.

 Zagman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Chariots are Vehicles. Vehicles don't have a LD value.

Unless I missed something in the Chariot rules? Where do you have permission to choose the profile your opponent uses?

How about the part that says..... "For the purpose of Characteristic tests, always use the Rider's profile." 3d6 vs Ld isn't a characteristic test, but it establishes precedent.

Poor argument for RAW. I disagree as far as RAI as well - it's simply not applicable.

We are also told where a model has multiple characteristic values, use the higher.

Context is important for that one - remember when Bikers had 2 toughness values?

It's also a dual Profile Model, and the Rider has a Leadership value. Psychic Shriek affects the unit, and the unit does have a leadership value. What gives you permission to ignore the riders profile when making the single model, dual profile, characteristic test. The part of theChariots Profile that is "hit" doesn't matter, we resolve a Leadership test on 3d6 against the unit and deal with the wounds accordingly. With no way to assign wounds to a vehicle, they must be resolved against the Rider which tracks with established Characteristic precedent.

It's not a characteristic test. If it was, you'd use this rule:

For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the rider’s profile.

Since it's not and you're hitting a Chariot, the owner of the Chariot distributes the hits. I allocate the hit to the Vehicle profile. Have fun shrieking that.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Can you target a unit embarked in a vehicle?

The Rider is no Embarked. But, you do target the unit, which consists of a dual profile single model.

Since it's not and you're hitting a Chariot, the owner of the Chariot distributes the hits. I allocate the hit to the Vehicle profile. Have fun shrieking that.

? Psychic Shreik doesn't generate any hits for you to assign to anything is generates wounds and only wounds.

rigeld2 wrote:

Since it's not and you're hitting a Chariot, the owner of the Chariot distributes the hits. I allocate the hit to the Vehicle profile. Have fun shrieking that.

Psychic Shriek affects a unit, the hit itself does nothing. By all means, allocate the hit to the Chariot, the power affects the target of the Psychic power, which is the unit. Then, you roll 3d6 vs your Leadership which the Unit has, and then you take wounds which cannot be allocated to the Chariot.

No one is contesting that you can assign a "hit" to the Chariot, but in this instance, the hit does nothing except being required for the power to affect the targeted unit. That is what I am trying to emphasize, everything else about characteristics was RAI and setting precedence on how to treat similar situations for other characteristics which cannot be ignored by using only the vehicle's profile. Hitting the unit is required to invoke the effects of Psychic Shriek, which affect the Unit as a whole.

"Psychic Shriek is a

witchfire

power with a range of 18". Roll 3d6 and subtract the target's Leadership- the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Amor and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek."

Witchfires target a unit, the hit is irrelevant as the effect is resolved against the Target, ie the targeted unit as referenced by Witchfires. Yes, you assign a meaningless hit to the Chariot, the actual effect is resolved against the unit and deals Wounds which then cannot be allocated to the Chariot.

 Zagman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Since it's not and you're hitting a Chariot, the owner of the Chariot distributes the hits. I allocate the hit to the Vehicle profile. Have fun shrieking that.

Psychic Shriek affects a unit, the hit itself does nothing. By all means, allocate the hit to the Chariot, the power affects the target of the Psychic power, which is the unit. Then, you roll 3d6 vs your Leadership which the Unit has, and then you take wounds which cannot be allocated to the Chariot.

a) Why can they not be allocated to the chariot?
b) The unit only has a Leadership in certain instances. Why are you asserting this instance is one of them? IE - cite permission to use the Rider profile to resolve this attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Since it's not and you're hitting a Chariot, the owner of the Chariot distributes the hits. I allocate the hit to the Vehicle profile. Have fun shrieking that.

Psychic Shriek affects a unit, the hit itself does nothing. By all means, allocate the hit to the Chariot, the power affects the target of the Psychic power, which is the unit. Then, you roll 3d6 vs your Leadership which the Unit has, and then you take wounds which cannot be allocated to the Chariot.

a) Why can they not be allocated to the chariot?
b) The unit only has a Leadership in certain instances. Why are you asserting this instance is one of them? IE - cite permission to use the Rider profile to resolve this attack.

A. There is no permission to allocate Wounds to a Vehicle. Only hits. The unit suffers wounds, vehicles cannot be wounded, the only place for those wounds to be resolved are against the Rider.
B. Yes, certain instances. Like be targeted by power which ques off of Leadership. The unit has a leadership value, and no permission exists for you to ignore that fact. I do not need to cite permission to use the Rider's profile, you need to cite permission to use the Chariot's profile to resolve wounds dealt to a unit. Show me permission to allocate wounds to the Chariot, none exist in the 7th Edition BRB. The unit takes wounds, those wounds have to be resolved, no permission exists for them to be allocated to a Vehcile, they must resolved the only place they can be RAW, the Rider.

Precedent exists for using the Rider's profile for Characteristics tests.

 Zagman wrote:
A. There is no permission to allocate Wounds to a Vehicle. Only hits. The unit suffers wounds, vehicles cannot be wounded, the only place for those wounds to be resolved are against the Rider.

The unit suffers wounds that must be allocated to a Vehicle. Even using the Rider's profile, the unit is a vehicle. So you're causing wounds to a vehicle. Have fun?

B. Yes, certain instances. Like be targeted by power which ques off of Leadership.

Citation needed.

The unit has a leadership value, and no permission exists for you to ignore that fact. I do not need to cite permission to use the Rider's profile, you need to cite permission to use the Chariot's profile to resolve wounds dealt to a unit.

No - you're asserting permission to use the Rider's leadership for something. You need to prove that.

The unit takes wounds, those wounds have to be resolved, no permission exists for them to be allocated to a Vehcile, they must resolved the only place they can be RAW, the Rider.

If no permission exists to be allocated to a Vehicle, there's no permission to resolve the power. Because it's a single model it's a Vehicle. Unless you have something saying otherwise?

Precedent exists for using the Rider's profile for Characteristics tests.

And, RAW, only for characteristic tests.

But you can cast Psychic Scream (or Haemorrhage or other similar powers which causes Characteristic tests) against a dreadnought (or vehicle), but because it doesn't have Wounds (or Toughness), then the power does nothing. So there is precedent that these types of attacks can be allocated to a vehicle....it just does nothing because the vehicle lacks the corresponding characteristics.

Here is how I interpret it to work:

1. Opponent successfully casts the the power (in this case, Psychic Shriek).

2. He rolls to hit. It hits. There is only 1 successful hit.

3. The player controlling the chariot then allocates this hit, either to the rider or to the chariot. Let's say he decides to allocate it onto the chariot.

4. You then resolve the power on the "profile" that is allocated to. Since it is allocated against the Chariot, the chariot then uses the rider's LD to resolve the characteristic test (i.e. the LD test). However, if it happens to fail the LD test, then the power just bounces off of it as it (the chariot profile) has no Wounds to lose.

 jy2 wrote:
But you can cast Psychic Scream (or Haemorrhage or other similar powers which causes Characteristic tests) against a dreadnought (or vehicle), but because it doesn't have Wounds (or Toughness), then the power does nothing. So there is precedent that these types of attacks can be allocated to a vehicle....it just does nothing because the vehicle lacks the corresponding characteristics.

Here is how I interpret it to work:

1. Opponent successfully casts the the power (in this case, Psychic Shriek).

2. He rolls to hit. It hits. There is only 1 successful hit.

3. The player controlling the chariot then allocates this hit, either to the rider or to the chariot. Let's say he decides to allocate it onto the chariot.

4. You then resolve the power on the "profile" that is allocated to. Since it is allocated against the Chariot, the chariot then uses the rider's LD to resolve the characteristic test (i.e. the LD test). However, if it happens to fail the LD test, then the power just bounces off of it as it (the chariot profile) has no Wounds to lose.

Shriek is not an LD test.

rigeld2 wrote:

Shriek is not an LD test.

Ok, I take it back. I meant it's effects causes you to test against LD to determine the number of wounds.

I agree with jy2's interpretation .

rigeld2 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
A. There is no permission to allocate Wounds to a Vehicle. Only hits. The unit suffers wounds, vehicles cannot be wounded, the only place for those wounds to be resolved are against the Rider.

The unit suffers wounds that must be allocated to a Vehicle. Even using the Rider's profile, the unit is a vehicle. So you're causing wounds to a vehicle. Have fun?

B. Yes, certain instances. Like be targeted by power which ques off of Leadership.

Citation needed.

The unit has a leadership value, and no permission exists for you to ignore that fact. I do not need to cite permission to use the Rider's profile, you need to cite permission to use the Chariot's profile to resolve wounds dealt to a unit.

No - you're asserting permission to use the Rider's leadership for something. You need to prove that.

The unit takes wounds, those wounds have to be resolved, no permission exists for them to be allocated to a Vehcile, they must resolved the only place they can be RAW, the Rider.

If no permission exists to be allocated to a Vehicle, there's no permission to resolve the power. Because it's a single model it's a Vehicle. Unless you have something saying otherwise?

Precedent exists for using the Rider's profile for Characteristics tests.

And, RAW, only for characteristic tests.

"A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile -a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot(See below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself."

It is a single model unit, but it can not be disputed that it has a profile that Psychic Shrike affects and can be resolved normally against. To say otherwise, is certainly not RAW. The Rider profile can be effected normally by Psychic Shriek.

The unit suffers wounds from Psychic Shriek, only one profile can suffer wounds, the non-vehicle half, there fore the Rider's Profile is wounded.

Of course I have permission to use the Rider's Leadership. We have an ability that affects a unit, that ability ques off of the leadership score of the unit, the unit has a leadership score via the Rider. How can you ignore the leadership value of the unit when resolving Psychic Shriek?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
But you can cast Psychic Scream (or Haemorrhage or other similar powers which causes Characteristic tests) against a dreadnought (or vehicle), but because it doesn't have Wounds (or Toughness), then the power does nothing. So there is precedent that these types of attacks can be allocated to a vehicle....it just does nothing because the vehicle lacks the corresponding characteristics.

Here is how I interpret it to work:

1. Opponent successfully casts the the power (in this case, Psychic Shriek).

2. He rolls to hit. It hits. There is only 1 successful hit.

3. The player controlling the chariot then allocates this hit, either to the rider or to the chariot. Let's say he decides to allocate it onto the chariot.

4. You then resolve the power on the "profile" that is allocated to. Since it is allocated against the Chariot, the chariot then uses the rider's LD to resolve the characteristic test (i.e. the LD test). However, if it happens to fail the LD test, then the power just bounces off of it as it (the chariot profile) has no Wounds to lose.

The problem is step 4. The hit does nothing, the power ques off of the target of the Psychic Power, the Unit and is resolved against the unit. The fact you can allocate a hit means nothing, the hit is merely required to effect the unit.

 Zagman wrote:
"A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile -a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot(See below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself."

It is a single model unit, but it can not be disputed that it has a profile that Psychic Shrike affects and can be resolved normally against. To say otherwise, is certainly not RAW. The Rider profile can be effected normally by Psychic Shriek.

Sure.
Cite permission for you (not the Chariot's owner) to choose the profile PS affects.

Ignoring the question of allocating hits, Rig are you saying the CCB/NL model doesn't have a leadership value?

 AndrewC wrote:
Ignoring the question of allocating hits, Rig are you saying the CCB/NL model doesn't have a leadership value?

It does when required to. The Chariot rules dictate when that is.

But the effects of the power require it to. The power asks that 3d6 is rolled against the units leadership does it not? And the resultant difference is allocated as wounds against the unit. Those wounds are not hits, and so can't be allocated by the controlling player. Now the originating hit can be allocated by the controlling player, but has no profile, only a secondary (if it can be called that) effect which requires a unit leadership value in order to establish.

The better question should be if a non-effective hit can trigger a secondary effect?

Cheers

Andrew

You don't make any rolls to hit with Psychic Shreik unless you'd like to show me a profile with a type so I know how many dice to roll?

You roll 3d6 against the units Ld. The unit only has 1 Ld value to use so we know which one we MUST use. That will generate a wound pool. We have no permission to split that pool or resolve it against one particular profile of the model we just look at the model and ask for a wounds characteristic. Which again we only have 1 number for so we again know what value we MUST use.

Well it being a witchfire makes it a psychic shooting attack no? (dont has a book available) but IIRC you still need to roll to hit.