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Hey all!

I'm starting up a new RP campaign featuring the Eldar of Iyanden as the cast. As such I've been researching Eldar culture and civilization, but there are a few questions I have that I can't find the answers to.
Let's dive right in.



Love


We know that the Eldar are a highly emotional race, thanks in large part to their psychic sensitivity. The extent and severity of their emotional sensitivity has historically been a source of both great joy, and one of the greatest tragedies to ever befall the galaxy. Because of this, the surviving Eldar have learned to control their powerful emotions through various methods, with the most prominent being the Paths the Eldar walk in their day to day lives.
These paths allow the Eldar to channel their powerful emotions into their work, finding a sort of release in a controlled and safe environment. When they are not working on their chosen craft, or walking their path, their powerful emotions are stored away until when next they can find release. The Paths are not perfect, however, and do not provide total protection against the Eldar's darker impulses. It is entirely possible for an Eldar walking a path to become 'lost' upon it, entering into a state of such obsession with their current path and work that they can no longer leave their path, and spend the rest of their lives upon it.

Despite this system of discipline and emotional control, I imagine that Eldar would still feel common emotions like frustration, anger, joy, hope and even love in their day to day lives, outside of their professional paths. I imagine that each Eldar would have a social circle of friends with which they spend their time. And I would imagine that when the time comes for an Eldar to find his or her life mate (And I do believe that Eldar prefer monogamous relationships, I think I read that somewhere) that they would attempt to control the loving emotions they feel towards their partner, but not repress them to the point of denying their existence. So while intense bouts of passion might be absent from an Eldar relationship, affection and love would remain in a controlled, but no less enjoyable form.

However, not all paths are created equal. While most paths lead Eldar to a civilian life of peace, there are those that lead the Eldar to war and to even more dangerous things.
The path of the Warrior leads Eldar to don their war masks and hone the art of death and destruction, but even these finely tuned warriors of the Craftworld are allowed to return to a civilian life when they are not needed, so I would imagine that these warriors would enjoy access to the same lifestyle of their civilian kin when not fighting for the safety and future of the Craftworld. Whether or not they would reach for it is a matter of personal preference.

Then there is the Path of the Seer, on which the most potent Eldar psykers hone the power of their minds to achieve total mastery over themselves and the power they possess.
One variant of this path is the Warlock, Eldar who previously walked the Path of the Warrior and now walk the Path of the Seer, but have not become lost to it. We understand what role Warlocks play within Eldar civilization as powerful psychic warriors that lead the Craftworlds into battle and guide the spiritual Wraithguard if they are needed, but I can't find any information on how these Eldar live their personal lives. As they once walked the Path of the Warrior, I would imagine that they would be allowed to return to civilian lives in times in which they are not needed in the defense of their Craftworld, just like the other Aspect warriors. But if this is true, as a psyker, wound things like love, sex and raising a family be considered a part of life, or a dangerous distraction to be avoided?




Sex


We understand a little of the Eldar reproductive system. Apparently genetic material must be administered in stages by the father over the course of a pregnancy to successfully carry a child to term. While we don't know exactly how many times the father must provide new samples of genetic material, I imagine that the number would be extremely high, not including unsuccessful attempts. Of course, many factors could go into how often intercourse is needed to carry a child to term. It could have as much to do with genetics as it has to do with the period during the female's fertile window in which a couple is trying to conceive. At a female's least fertile, she could take twice as long to gather the genetic material required to birth a child as she would at her peak, but still carry a healthy child to term.
Basically, what this means is that Eldar have to have a lot of sex in order to reproduce just once (lucky bastards...) and as a dying race, I imagine that most Eldar couples would take advantage of the female's fertile windows to create as many offspring as possible, regardless of the number of children they may already have.

We also know a bit about a female's fertility cycle. We know that her fertile years can last around as long as a human decade (if I recall correctly), and once that fertile window closes it does not re-open for many more decades. Given the heightened emotional and sensory sensitivity of the Eldar, would sex be considered a taboo during a female's infertile years? Or would it be approached with the same caution and control (well, okay, maybe a bit more of both) as any other activity the Eldar participate in throughout their day to day life?




Family


What do we know of Eldar family life? We know they form unions similar to marriage. We know they birth children and we know they raise them at least to a certain point. But at what point does a young Eldar leave home, and what sort of relationship does he or she maintain with her natal home once they have set off on their own paths in life?

If you have not read it already, would suggest you to read Path of the Eldar by Gav Thorpe. Beside beeing an excellent trilogy in my one opinion, it could help you better understand eldar daily lives. Here's my contribution to your efforts.

Love: eldar fall in love pretty much like humans. During their path they crossroads with others with similar path or with friends they had since childhood. They fall in love for pretty much the same reason than humans. The special eldar spice is that craftworld eldar follow a path of life that also affect their vision of the world an the way they experience it thus changing their personnality radically. An eldar also never completly forget the teaching of is previous paths, so a young adult eldar may seems to change radically while he shifts from one path to another while a mature adult will seem more balanced while still changing. Eldar psychologie can be represented by painting. Each new path add a colour so at fist changes looks dramatic but with age, an eldar who nver lost himself on a path turns into a master piece of vibrant colour and subtle nuances. Change, balance, discipline and dedication are the core principle at the heart of the craftworld culture.

Sex: Eldars are not very shy about sex. They have no problem with things like none-reproductive sex or sex before marriage. Of course, they have complex seduction ritual that involves the classics (banters, small talks, surprise flowers and other delicate attention), but also more deeply emotionnal rituals like sharing surface thought, psychic contact, etc. Though eldars have no special issue with sex they do are very privy with their body. They rarely touch each other unless they share strong bonds and would consider the opposite has rude.

Family: the first path every eldar follows is called the Path of Awakening. Its basically the path that teachs an eldar how to master his senses (developpe earing, touch, smell, sight, etc), his body (sports, coordination, basic weapon training, tools, basic instrument play, etc.) and his mind (blocking of people out is mind, expressing yourslef, restrain is psychic potential, learn eldar language, mythologie and customs). The master of the young eldar at that stage are his parents and probably a teacher here and there. When an eldar feels like he is complete, he will leave his home and follow a path of his choosing. That sort of thing happens toward the end of teenagerhood (about a century old for an eldar). They retain very strong bonds with their family because of their shared experience. It's the first color of an eldar life and the one that will shape the entire fresco. The different craftworld cultures will also mark their family lifestyle. For exemple Saim-Hann puts blood bonds has a structure of power in the form of clans while Alaitoc advocate of the parents to erase theselves has much has possible from their child lifes and vice-versa.

of course, don't forget that this goes for «normal» eldars. Those that we see on the gaming bord are the lost ones (seers, exarch, spiritseers, bonesinger, etc.) or those that follow the darkest and most rigid path (the aspect warriors). These eldars are feared yet respected by the others, but they seldom are fully accepted has long has they follow these paths (even out of the temples, aspect warriors are seens has potentially dangerous). Hope it can help you!

That's all very helpful, thank you.

It's more or less what I expected, but I wanted to make certain that there were no taboos surrounding the subjects before I turn my players loose in a culture they may not be too familiar with.
One of the characters I had in mind was to be a Warlock, and the idea that they would be respected yet feared and never fully accepted by the civilian Eldar fits his personality and story perfectly.
It also makes his relationship with an artisan, who is able to look past what others see on the surface to understand him intimately, far more meaningful.

Edit: I do plan to read the Path of the Eldar trilogy before we start, but I was uncertain as to whether or not these questions would be answered.

path of the outcast has some good insight about elder interactions.

Aradryan picks up I believe an older little lady at a bar and they have a fling. Then he attracts the attention and has a fling with the female captain of the ship he becomes a crew member of too.

maybe this info might help out

I can't help but chuckle at how you wrote hardly a line for family but clearly thought more about love and sex of this fantasy race judging by the paragraphs of text

I wrote a satire thread about Dakka's obsession with alien sex the other month and got a stern warning

 changerofways wrote:
I can't help but chuckle at how you wrote hardly a line for family but clearly thought more about love and sex of this fantasy race judging by the paragraphs of text

I wrote a satire thread about Dakka's obsession with alien sex the other month and got a stern warning

Link? Sounds amusing given Dakka's obsession with W40K genitalia.

This is very interesting.

The Path of Awakening is not the first Path of every Eldar. The Path of Awakening as given in Gav Thorpe's Eldar novels is a complementary opposite to the Path of Dreaming, where conscious self reflective thought is suppressed in favor of direct experience and response. A skill of this path does seem to be heightened observational skills. The Path of Dreaming appears to be focused on introspective meditation and self reflection. A skill of this path seems to be the ability to "switch off" senses, leaving the mind to reflect without distraction. It seems some people's recollection of the content has become a bit muddled. The character of Korlandril in those novels took these two paths because he was self-absorbed and with artistic leanings.

Also very very ancient background (i.e. 2nd edition or even earlier) on Biel-tan has the Path of the Warrior as the first Path every Biel-tan Eldar takes upon reaching maturity, in keeping with the martial traditions of that craftworld.

I can't help but chuckle at how you wrote hardly a line for family but clearly thought more about love and sex of this fantasy race judging by the paragraphs of text

I wrote a satire thread about Dakka's obsession with alien sex the other month and got a stern warning

But they don't mind all the debates over... how should I put this if space marines are fully uh "functional".

 changerofways wrote:
I can't help but chuckle at how you wrote hardly a line for family but clearly thought more about love and sex of this fantasy race judging by the paragraphs of text

I wrote a satire thread about Dakka's obsession with alien sex the other month and got a stern warning

Actually it makes me chuckle, too.

I suppose I wrote it as I did because the question about family life is a much more general subject. The answer could be anything from strong family ties to being encouraged to keep their distance and anything in between. My questions about love and sex are a bit more specific, and they partially inform the answers to the third question.

The "lots of sex" thing ultimately comes from Xenology and thus should be completely ignored. I highly recommend you develop your own fluff for the topic, because there's not a lot of official content on it.

As for emotions, Eldar are intense, and everything about them is vastly heightened relative to a human. The strongest human passion is probably a dull half-spark compared to what the extent of Eldar feeling is like. So, while they're "repressed", it doesn't turn them into Vulcans. Judging by their actions, they're just like most elves and their relatively suppressed emotions result in them seeming, to a human, just rather uptight. There's plenty of room for personalities as long as they don't stray into "rebellious teen" territory, because that's when/why they become Corsairs.

I don't see why Eldar wouldn't form family units, unless they were made as relatively solitary creatures (unlike humans, who are social animals) by the Old Ones, but that would hardly be conductive to being an effective fighting force.

Not that this has any actual supporting fluff, but I like to think that the Eldar reproduce entirely through technology. Whether this means that couples adopt "parentless" vat-borns (to use the Dark Eldar term) or have children made from their own DNA (or Eldar equivalent) doesn't matter. Any attempts to explain the "dying out" thing with biology are pointless, as the only acceptable explanation (that they could not simply overcome through science, breeding programs, or both - not to mention that an overall decline doesn't really make sense unless they evolved to be less fertile for some reason) is that they won't allow the creation (not even just birth, because pre-natal death can happen - assuming, of course, that Eldar even have wombs) of an Eldar unless they have a spirit stone ready for them, and spirit stones are a resource that are highly difficult to obtain.

Also, I imagine the Eldar are, as a society, so open to homosexuality that it doesn't even register as "different" to them (this would also tie in to both of my suggestions that couples request to adopt or have a child made from their DNA-equivalent). I really can't see Eldar as promiscuous, but that all romances are about a life-long (and for Eldar, that is especially significant) spiritual connection rather than just base attraction.

We should bear in mind, however, that culture varies between Craftworlds. We don't have fluff to support differences in these topics relating to Craftworld-specific cultures, but it's important to note.

In the first addition couldn't humans and elder have kids, is that stuff still around.

I would imagine not. Eldar and humans are two very different species. They may be very similar in personality and form. Probably on the inside too but producing offspring requires genetic similarity. It's possible that through convergent evolution Human and Eldar DNA is similar enough to produce offspring but it's highly unlikely.

I'd imagine that even then hybrids would be rare since interactions between the Imperium and Eldar involve explosions and gunfire. That combined with the legendary Eldar snobbishness you don't get a lot of opportunities for hybrids, if they can be produced, to be formed.

To answer your question more concisely that fluff has never been retconned but never been referenced either, AFAIK.

Maybe Dark Eldar Human crossbreeds, maybe that's where the mandrakes come from.

Back in the day there were half eldar/humans...here we go then, about halfway down is Rogue Trader fluff.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/529856.page

Eldar get off by touching their ears

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
In the first addition couldn't humans and elder have kids, is that stuff still around.

Not anymore.

Cross-breeds is a stupid idea to begin with. And then you have the fact that Eldar have a completely different DNA structure from humans.

You'd have better chances trying to make a Chimp/Human hybrid.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You'd have better chances trying to make a Chimp/Human hybrid.

Does that work? I mean, have anyone tried ?

 Grey Templar wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
In the first addition couldn't humans and elder have kids, is that stuff still around.

Not anymore.

Cross-breeds is a stupid idea to begin with. And then you have the fact that Eldar have a completely different DNA structure from humans.

You'd have better chances trying to make a Chimp/Human hybrid.

Eldar DNA, or whatever they have in its place is unknown, as is the mechanism for fertilisation. Given the fictional nature of the setting it is entirely possible to imagine cross breeding between alien species.

Sadly, yes. and no it doesn't work.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The "lots of sex" thing ultimately comes from Xenology and thus should be completely ignored. I highly recommend you develop your own fluff for the topic, because there's not a lot of official content on it.

That's what I like about 40k. There's not a whole lot of fluff in general, but we're given strong blueprints to create our own. The idea that Eldar have to have lots and lots of sex to reproduce once is consistent with their low birth rate and dying population though, at least in my opinion. If a single Eldar female could only give birth once or twice every fifty years due to long fertility cycles and complex fertilization methods, that would naturally lead to a decline in population after what the Eldar have been through.

As for reproducing technologically, it's an interesting idea, but I wonder if some Craftworlds or the Eldar as a whole would find something immoral about it. Just like summoning the Wraithguard is akin the Necromancy, which is a strict taboo, I could see certain Craftworlds rejecting the idea of reproducing through technology. They might argue that the child would be born without a soul, or would be somehow impure.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

Eldar DNA, or whatever they have in its place is unknown, as is the mechanism for fertilisation. Given the fictional nature of the setting it is entirely possible to imagine cross breeding between alien species.

Eldar are aliens. Think of absolutely any life form on Earth. Cacti, shrimp, jellyfish, bacteria, rabbits, tortoises, trees, sea sponges; humans are infinitely more related to these things than they are to an alien. DNA is also not "the mechanism for fertilisation", it's the STC for a life form.

Your logic wrote:
Fish DNA is the mechanism for fertilisation. Given the fictional nature of the setting it is entirely possible to imagine cross breeding between fish and humans.

There was an Ultramarine, I think a Captain, who was half-Eldar in Rogue Trader-era. Thankfully they have obliterated that sort of thing. I'm all for an Eldar-human romance, however unlikely, but crossbreeding is just a huge no.

EDIT:

 Valena wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The "lots of sex" thing ultimately comes from Xenology and thus should be completely ignored. I highly recommend you develop your own fluff for the topic, because there's not a lot of official content on it.

That's what I like about 40k. There's not a whole lot of fluff in general, but we're given strong blueprints to create our own. The idea that Eldar have to have lots and lots of sex to reproduce once is consistent with their low birth rate and dying population though, at least in my opinion. If a single Eldar female could only give birth once or twice every fifty years due to long fertility cycles and complex fertilization methods, that would naturally lead to a decline in population after what the Eldar have been through.

As for reproducing technologically, it's an interesting idea, but I wonder if some Craftworlds or the Eldar as a whole would find something immoral about it. Just like summoning the Wraithguard is akin the Necromancy, which is a strict taboo, I could see certain Craftworlds rejecting the idea of reproducing through technology. They might argue that the child would be born without a soul, or would be somehow impure.

Having a slow breeding cycle means the opposite of lots of sex.

A low birth rate being the cause of their dying populace would not work, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it would mean their best hope for survival would be to retreat, hide, and never fight a single battle. When they did have to fight, use of Wraith units would be the norm, and the deployment of actual Eldar warriors would be an absolute last resort. Secondly, they're not diseased. Eldar are extremely long-lived and possess incredibly advanced technology. The only possible way their numbers could be dwindling is war, which again means they would stay away from it.

Use of Wraith units is taboo, but done anyway. Why would the Eldar - whose main concern is their decline, as they keep reminding us - be willing to use Wraiths but not bio-technology? If you were correct, then the Eldar would be allowing themselves to die off because technological means of salvaging their species are "impure". Bringing back the dead is a necessary evil, but artificial reproduction is something they'd rather die than resort to? Also, they're the Eldar. They have plenty of psykers who could verify the nature of a vat-born's soul, and there is absolutely no reason why a vat-born wouldn't have a soul. Also, if they were, why wouldn't they make "impure" clone-troops? Surely if vat-born Eldar are "impure", their deaths are far more preferable to the deaths of "real" Eldar, or the "taboo" of necromancy. They could also easily correct this supposed genetic flaw with science, allowing them to continue with all the "pure" intercourse they want.

Then we have the Exodites. They live in harsh conditions, battling predators, disease, and famine. Yet their populations seem perfectly stable. If the problem with the Eldar was genetic, then it is specific to Craftworld Eldar for some reason. Of course this brings up other issues, like why does the genetic issue only effect Craftworld Eldar, and where did it come from? If this were true, all the CWE need to do is set up crossbreeding programs with Exodites, or become Exodites themselves. It's important to note that Exodites don't require spirit stones because of their World Spirits.

I have more to say, and threads where I've discussed this to find, but I have to go look at a puppy!

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Your logic wrote:
Fish DNA is the mechanism for fertilisation. Given the fictional nature of the setting it is entirely possible to imagine cross breeding between fish and humans.

.

They call themselves the Tau.

Frozen Ocean and I have similar views. I like the Eldar army but sadly their background makes even less sense than the free energy tyranids. There is no reason why the Eldar wouldn't use vast born, by the billions, to rebuild their population asap. Especially Iyandan. It's a pretty problematic hole in the background.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Having a slow breeding cycle means the opposite of lots of sex.

This is from the Eldar Lexicanum page.

Eldar seem to reproduce in stages, with new genetic material being added by the father to the developing embryo over an extended period. This process is ill-understood, but Eldar autopsies are suggestive of it.

This could be achieved through either intercourse or vat-born growth, but either way you go about it the embryo still needs new genetic material at certain stages to continue to grow. Since the Lexicanum is the closest thing to canon I can find on the subject, I was going to stick with it.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A low birth rate being the cause of their dying populace would not work, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it would mean their best hope for survival would be to retreat, hide, and never fight a single battle. When they did have to fight, use of Wraith units would be the norm, and the deployment of actual Eldar warriors would be an absolute last resort. Secondly, they're not diseased. Eldar are extremely long-lived and possess incredibly advanced technology. The only possible way their numbers could be dwindling is war, which again means they would stay away from it.

A low birth rate is just one of the problems facing the Eldar. The other being constant and unavoidable warfare. It should not be forgotten that the greatest flaw of the Eldar remains their pride. Despite their dwindling numbers and lack of cohesion between Craftworlds, they still hold onto the lofty ambition of retaking the galaxy. This pride prevents them from retreating or hiding, despite how it would surely be in their best interests.

The other possibility is that even if they wanted to retreat, they couldn't. Slaanesh is constantly hunting Eldar souls, they're her favorite delicacy in all the galaxy. Even if they did retreat, even if they tried to hide, how could they stay off the radar of a Chaos God who is drawn to them by their powerful emotions and psychic nature? Then you have the Tyranids who want to eat them, the Imperium who wants to exterminate them, and a host of other forces bent on their destruction coming at them from every angle. All things considered, retreat doesn't seem like a realistic way out for the Craftworld Eldar.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Use of Wraith units is taboo, but done anyway. Why would the Eldar - whose main concern is their decline, as they keep reminding us - be willing to use Wraiths but not bio-technology? If you were correct, then the Eldar would be allowing themselves to die off because technological means of salvaging their species are "impure". Bringing back the dead is a necessary evil, but artificial reproduction is something they'd rather die than resort to? Also, they're the Eldar. They have plenty of psykers who could verify the nature of a vat-born's soul, and there is absolutely no reason why a vat-born wouldn't have a soul. Also, if they were, why wouldn't they make "impure" clone-troops? Surely if vat-born Eldar are "impure", their deaths are far more preferable to the deaths of "real" Eldar, or the "taboo" of necromancy. They could also easily correct this supposed genetic flaw with science, allowing them to continue with all the "pure" intercourse they want.

Clearly this is an idea you feel strongly about, and I agree with you that if the Eldar were to make use of bio-technological reproduction, they wouldn't be suffering from the dwindling population that currently afflicts the Craftworlds. It is because of this fact that it's unlikely that bio-tech is used in reproduction in any way, as I'm sure you're already aware. The question then becomes; Why don't the Eldar use bio-technology to reproduce with? Perhaps the seers found that 'vat-born' Eldar had no souls after all, or perhaps vat-born Eldar had reduced or nullified psychic sensitivity. Or maybe the very idea of it offends the pride of the Eldar and it hasn't been attempted.

My thoughts are that Eldar reproduction is extremely complex and probably involves some type of psychic stimulant to the embryo, something that it passively gathers from proximity to its mother, or something else that machines cannot effectively reproduce. Another possibility is that artificial reproduction is feared and rejected by the Eldar because of the potential for malicious warp entities to attach themselves to a vat-grown embryo, who's mind has not yet formed enough to learn to shield itself from the warp and has no psychic barrier projected by a mother between it and the warp. Outcasts are not often welcomed to stay for long aboard Craftworlds for this reason, because they have not had the discipline of the paths to guard their minds against the warp, and it is thought that warp entities can attach themselves to these Outcasts, then 'jump' to other psychically sensitive systems, including the Infinity Circuit itself and wreak all kinds of havoc.
It's possible that even with their extremely advanced technology, artificial reproduction is still something that escapes their science because there is something in their nature that they can't replicate. We know more about their technology than their methods of reproduction, after all. That isn't something that can be said for the other races of the galaxy, except maybe the Tau...

Either way, we won't likely know the answers to any of these questions any time soon. It's entirely possible that a pocket of Eldar somewhere might have figured out how to do it, and they keep the secret to themselves for one reason or another.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Then we have the Exodites. They live in harsh conditions, battling predators, disease, and famine. Yet their populations seem perfectly stable. If the problem with the Eldar was genetic, then it is specific to Craftworld Eldar for some reason. Of course this brings up other issues, like why does the genetic issue only effect Craftworld Eldar, and where did it come from? If this were true, all the CWE need to do is set up crossbreeding programs with Exodites, or become Exodites themselves. It's important to note that Exodites don't require spirit stones because of their World Spirits.

I don't think that the breeding problem has anything to do with faulty genetics in Craftworld Eldar. The success of the Exodites is more likely attributed to the buffer that Craftworld Eldar provide. These Exodites battle harsh climates and a myriad of other natural problems, but outright war like the Craftworlds face is rare for them, or at least so I would assume. Also, isn't a World Spirit just another name for an Infinity Circuit?

Anyway, the bottom line is that we don't know exactly how it's done, but we know the result; A dwindling population and a low birth rate. Clearly there is a problem somewhere, and it may not be a solvable one. However that's another discussion entirely, and while debating whether or not artificial reproduction is viable for the Eldar is interesting, it goes in a completely different direction than what I know and understand about the Eldar and how I would like to represent them. That being strong family ties and a struggling population, both of which are nullified to some extent by the idea of vat-born Eldar. It's not a bad idea, it's just one that I would have to see some canon evidence of in order to accept

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I have more to say, and threads where I've discussed this to find, but I have to go look at a puppy!

What kind? I want a puppy, too!

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Eldar are aliens. Think of absolutely any life form on Earth. Cacti, shrimp, jellyfish, bacteria, rabbits, tortoises, trees, sea sponges; humans are infinitely more related to these things than they are to an alien. DNA is also not "the mechanism for fertilisation", it's the STC for a life form.

I'm a clinical scientist, I know what DNA is and how it works, as well as understanding gene transfer in a number of species types and situations

And by "mechanism of fertilisation" I mean the trigger of fertilisation... in humans it is the mixing of dna from the parents in the female... in eldar, it may be a psychic bond which may then imbue some proto-eldar with the traits of the parents, shaping their "dna" (or whatever they use) to give the physical blueprint to make a distinct individual. Such a mechanism could produce hybrids with any number of species that had a compatible psychic match to the eldar.

Alternatively, the tyranids just absorb the genetic material of consumed creatures and take on that which is useful. Another mechanism that can create hybrid creatures.

Vat born are known to have souls since the dark Eldar vat born still have to go on raids and inflict suffering to keep from wasting away and being consumed by Slaanesh. Without souls they wouldn't have to do that.

I look at it like the DE are the true Eldar, numbering in the hundreds of billions. Mostly they are fractitious so they aren't as big a force in the galaxy as more unified races. The CWE are a tiny minority of religious fanatics whose strange customs are dooming them to slowly die out. However they can focus force better than the DE and are more involved with humans so they have a larger role in the setting than the DE.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Vat born are known to have souls since the dark Eldar vat born still have to go on raids and inflict suffering to keep from wasting away and being consumed by Slaanesh. Without souls they wouldn't have to do that.

I look at it like the DE are the true Eldar, numbering in the hundreds of billions. Mostly they are fractitious so they aren't as big a force in the galaxy as more unified races. The CWE are a tiny minority of religious fanatics whose strange customs are dooming them to slowly die out. However they can focus force better than the DE and are more involved with humans so they have a larger role in the setting than the DE.

Craftworld Eldar number in the billions, Dark Eldar number possibly in the hundreds of trillions going by the size of Commorragh.

Enormous post, go!

Silverthorne wrote:Frozen Ocean and I have similar views. I like the Eldar army but sadly their background makes even less sense than the free energy tyranids. There is no reason why the Eldar wouldn't use vast born, by the billions, to rebuild their population asap. Especially Iyandan. It's a pretty problematic hole in the background.

There is, though! Soul stones are a limited resource. The Exodites have no problems with dying out, and they have no need for soul stones because of their World Spirits. The status of Exodites alone heavily suggests that this is why the Eldar are in decline.

Valena wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Having a slow breeding cycle means the opposite of lots of sex.

This is from the Eldar Lexicanum page.

Eldar seem to reproduce in stages, with new genetic material being added by the father to the developing embryo over an extended period. This process is ill-understood, but Eldar autopsies are suggestive of it.

This could be achieved through either intercourse or vat-born growth, but either way you go about it the embryo still needs new genetic material at certain stages to continue to grow. Since the Lexicanum is the closest thing to canon I can find on the subject, I was going to stick with it.

This is from Xenology, and, as I said, should therefore be ignored. Also, this is most likely from an Imperial perspective, which makes it completely unreliable. It's also really, really stupid.

Valena wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A low birth rate being the cause of their dying populace would not work, for a number of reasons. Firstly, it would mean their best hope for survival would be to retreat, hide, and never fight a single battle. When they did have to fight, use of Wraith units would be the norm, and the deployment of actual Eldar warriors would be an absolute last resort. Secondly, they're not diseased. Eldar are extremely long-lived and possess incredibly advanced technology. The only possible way their numbers could be dwindling is war, which again means they would stay away from it.

A low birth rate is just one of the problems facing the Eldar. The other being constant and unavoidable warfare. It should not be forgotten that the greatest flaw of the Eldar remains their pride. Despite their dwindling numbers and lack of cohesion between Craftworlds, they still hold onto the lofty ambition of retaking the galaxy. This pride prevents them from retreating or hiding, despite how it would surely be in their best interests.

The other possibility is that even if they wanted to retreat, they couldn't. Slaanesh is constantly hunting Eldar souls, they're her favorite delicacy in all the galaxy. Even if they did retreat, even if they tried to hide, how could they stay off the radar of a Chaos God who is drawn to them by their powerful emotions and psychic nature? Then you have the Tyranids who want to eat them, the Imperium who wants to exterminate them, and a host of other forces bent on their destruction coming at them from every angle. All things considered, retreat doesn't seem like a realistic way out for the Craftworld Eldar.

Like I said before, the Exodites manage all this just fine. Also, they don't seem to have any ambitions beyond simply surviving. Almost everything the Eldar do is to protect the Eldar. They don't colonise, they don't take territory, they simply survive. They already consider Eldar life to be beyond precious, but if the main cause of decline was war, then all they need do is stop going to war. Tyranids are easy to avoid when you know the future and can travel through the Webway, the Imperium would never be able to find them if they hid (and have much more important things to worry about), and once again, the Exodites manage to avoid Slaanesh's "hunt", despite lacking space travel. The only way Slaanesh seeks Eldar is by taking their souls after their death, which is why all Eldar have some method of shielding themselves from this (World Spirits for Exodites, soul stones for Craftworlders, soul-stealing for Dark Eldar). If war was the problem, they could simply stop.

Valena wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Use of Wraith units is taboo, but done anyway. Why would the Eldar - whose main concern is their decline, as they keep reminding us - be willing to use Wraiths but not bio-technology? If you were correct, then the Eldar would be allowing themselves to die off because technological means of salvaging their species are "impure". Bringing back the dead is a necessary evil, but artificial reproduction is something they'd rather die than resort to? Also, they're the Eldar. They have plenty of psykers who could verify the nature of a vat-born's soul, and there is absolutely no reason why a vat-born wouldn't have a soul. Also, if they were, why wouldn't they make "impure" clone-troops? Surely if vat-born Eldar are "impure", their deaths are far more preferable to the deaths of "real" Eldar, or the "taboo" of necromancy. They could also easily correct this supposed genetic flaw with science, allowing them to continue with all the "pure" intercourse they want.

Clearly this is an idea you feel strongly about, and I agree with you that if the Eldar were to make use of bio-technological reproduction, they wouldn't be suffering from the dwindling population that currently afflicts the Craftworlds.

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that a dwindling population because of a genetic flaw would be easily corrected through science, but that that limited reproduction isn't the problem - the lack of soul stones is. Iyanden could (relatively) quickly replenish its numbers, but they don't have the soul stones to shield the replacement populace from Slaanesh.

Valena wrote:Perhaps the seers found that 'vat-born' Eldar had no souls after all, or perhaps vat-born Eldar had reduced or nullified psychic sensitivity.

This would be extremely stupid, because it would mean that souls are generated through intercourse and intercourse alone. The only difference between a natural birth and an artificial one is the use of genitals.

Valena wrote:Or maybe the very idea of it offends the pride of the Eldar and it hasn't been attempted.

The Eldar often show they are willing to go to great lengths, even break their own codes (necromancy) and sacrifice themselves (summoning an Avatar), to protect their species. Refusing to use biotechnology - something that would, if their issue was genetic, fix their problem completely - for arbitrary reasons would mean they are actively condemning themselves. Also, this would have to be a decision made by every single Craftworld, including Iyanden (whose whole thing is being desperate about their low populace).

Valena wrote:
My thoughts are that Eldar reproduction is extremely complex and probably involves some type of psychic stimulant to the embryo, something that it passively gathers from proximity to its mother, or something else that machines cannot effectively reproduce. Another possibility is that artificial reproduction is feared and rejected by the Eldar because of the potential for malicious warp entities to attach themselves to a vat-grown embryo, who's mind has not yet formed enough to learn to shield itself from the warp and has no psychic barrier projected by a mother between it and the warp.

This is actually good thinking, but it completely ignores embryonic implantation (creating an embryo then putting it into a mother - this happens in real life) and other examples of "vat-growth" in the setting. The Primarchs and many Dark Eldar, for example. Furthermore, this suggests that the extremely powerful psykers of a Craftworld (not to mention the Infinity Circuit itself) could not be used for this exact purpose.

Valena wrote:
It's possible that even with their extremely advanced technology, artificial reproduction is still something that escapes their science because there is something in their nature that they can't replicate.

The Dark Eldar do it with inferior technology and no access to psychic abilities, for one. Here's a quote from another thread:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
If the source for the "multiple fathers" thing is Xenology, it is highly suspect. Even if it isn't, it's an extremely stupid concept.

At any rate, there is no conceivable reason why the Eldar could be in decline, because any genetic issues they could possibly have could be solved with biotechnology. Fabulous Bill the Random Chaos Space Marine can make Space Marines, the barbaric Imperium of Man can grow replacement limbs and organs, and the youngling Tau are probably doing genetic manipulation (conflicting sources). What would possibly stop the Eldar - the species that prides itself so highly on its advanced technology - from doing something so simple? I'd be surprised if the graceful, prideful Eldar didn't consider "natural" birth an inelegant, brutish alternative to the Cradle of Vaul or whatever they'd call it. The Dark Eldar have a stigma associated with those birthed from their science, but that's just part of their culture (a culture which relies on slavery and is all about bloodlines, backstabbing, and so on).

And another:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I'm seeing implications that being vatborn would mean you have no soul. Why? Is the true nature of the oh-so-wonderful soul so entirely dependent on the mashing together of sweaty animal genitalia? Does some cosmic force watch each and every conception and say "Hot damn, your baby gets a soul"? Even if this were the case, wouldn't it be extremely beneficial to make every new Eldar child effectively a Blank? That's assuming that coitus = soul, though, which is a silly idea.

Nobody said that these vatborn wouldn't be raised with love and teaching, especially if they were running this specifically as a population-increasing program. There would be measures in place to ensure these new Eldar children are cared for (going to Eldar orphanage is hardly the worst thing in the world, either). Meanwhile, if it's so difficult for Eldar to conceive, why not give willing couples a child or two, vatborn from their very own DNA? Every Eldar is a warrior, no matter what path their life has taken. Whether you're a chef, a butcher, a gardener, a housecleaner - when the Craftworld calls for war, you answer. That's what is meant by these vatborn "defending the Craftworld".

The "don't vatbirth because it's dooming Eldar lives to Slaanesh" doesn't make sense, either. Why don't they just give up now, then? The Eldar aren't humans, so the primary means of population growth is hardly going to be "we're obsessed with copulating and sometimes we forget to use contraception".

Valena wrote:We know more about their technology than their methods of reproduction, after all.

Yes, and we know that their technology is astoundingly advanced. It really wouldn't make sense if they couldn't even rival, let alone surpass, the baby-manufacturing capabilities of their own bodies.

Valena wrote:Either way, we won't likely know the answers to any of these questions any time soon.

Of course not.

Valena wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Then we have the Exodites. They live in harsh conditions, battling predators, disease, and famine. Yet their populations seem perfectly stable. If the problem with the Eldar was genetic, then it is specific to Craftworld Eldar for some reason. Of course this brings up other issues, like why does the genetic issue only effect Craftworld Eldar, and where did it come from? If this were true, all the CWE need to do is set up crossbreeding programs with Exodites, or become Exodites themselves. It's important to note that Exodites don't require spirit stones because of their World Spirits.

I don't think that the breeding problem has anything to do with faulty genetics in Craftworld Eldar.

All of the problems you are suggesting (the Xenology stuff, as well as a low birth rate in general) would be a result of faulty genetics.

Valena wrote:The success of the Exodites is more likely attributed to the buffer that Craftworld Eldar provide. These Exodites battle harsh climates and a myriad of other natural problems, but outright war like the Craftworlds face is rare for them, or at least so I would assume.

They're not under constant guard by the Craftworlds, and Biel-tan aren't everywhere. They survive because the galaxy is large, and because planetary destruction really isn't that common. Of course the occasional Exodite world is eaten by Tyranids or similar, but they're not under threat of extinction or Slaanesh.

Valena wrote:Also, isn't a World Spirit just another name for an Infinity Circuit?

Pretty much, but Infinity Circuits don't seem to automatically suck in any Eldar who dies on a Craftworld, unlike a World Spirit.

Valena wrote:
Anyway, the bottom line is that we don't know exactly how it's done, but we know the result; A dwindling population and a low birth rate. Clearly there is a problem somewhere, and it may not be a solvable one. However that's another discussion entirely, and while debating whether or not artificial reproduction is viable for the Eldar is interesting, it goes in a completely different direction than what I know and understand about the Eldar and how I would like to represent them. That being strong family ties and a struggling population, both of which are nullified to some extent by the idea of vat-born Eldar. It's not a bad idea, it's just one that I would have to see some canon evidence of in order to accept

The point isn't for artificial reproduction, it's to answer questions about sex and why they are in decline. The possibility for artificial reproduction merely invalidates the "genetic flaw" reason. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not about genetics, it's about soul stones. The population is struggling (as per canon), but for a different reason than "because they need to have lots and lots of sex" (which is a very relevant thing to debunk if you're considering how their relationships work).

While I personally headcanon that Eldar reproduce artificially, I am not trying to convince you that this is anything but my own creation - however, what I am trying to convince you is that the problems proposed by canon (ie the Eldar's decline) can not possibly be genetic, and that the only explanation that works is their lack of soul stones. I'd also like to point out that artificial reproduction does not in any way exclude strong family ties. The only difference is that, instead of copulating like dirty humans, an Eldar couple decides precisely when they want to have a child (potentially waiting for an available soul stone). This would also allow same-sex couples to have children. In short, artificial reproduction only means that Eldar don't have sex, but it doesn't fix their "struggling population" problem and it doesn't mean they don't have strong familial bonds.

Valena wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I have more to say, and threads where I've discussed this to find, but I have to go look at a puppy!

What kind? I want a puppy, too!

German Shepherd. A friend just moved back to the country after living in Prague for a while, and she got a puppy. Six and a half weeks old, and super adorable.

Spoilered for cute.

It is possible that Eldar dont use machines for artificial reproduction on the whole because most individuals don't care for the idea that a machine made their kids rather than themselves. I am sure it is done in some cases like homosexual couples or infertile ones but not on the whole.

The Tau, on the other hand, are staunch pragmatics so I firmly believe that most Tau if not all are vat born so that valuable warriors arent taken off the front.