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With your question about magic;

One of my favorite books is called A Cruel Wind (Pick it up, please. It's kind of weird, but in a good way), and it has POWERFUL magic.

Without going into too much detail, in the Prologue one of the main characters (Whose a mute) has his mom executed, his adoptive parents die, he runs away to the barbarians' lands with twelve other kids, studies magic from all twelve tribes, sends one kid back to his home kingdom to warn them of pending doom every year, shows up on the thirteenth with an army at his beck and call.... and promptly summons an earthquake so massive it destroys the walls of the city and leaves the defenses in ruins, allowing the army to ransack it as they please.

Not going to lie, the build up and everything about that was one of the best I've ever read.

What is going to be your magic system? Items of Power? Ingredients? Willpower? Pacts with Eldritch creatures?

 Slarg232 wrote:
With your question about magic;

One of my favorite books is called A Cruel Wind (Pick it up, please. It's kind of weird, but in a good way), and it has POWERFUL magic.

Without going into too much detail, in the Prologue one of the main characters (Whose a mute) has his mom executed, his adoptive parents die, he runs away to the barbarians' lands with twelve other kids, studies magic from all twelve tribes, sends one kid back to his home kingdom to warn them of pending doom every year, shows up on the thirteenth with an army at his beck and call.... and promptly summons an earthquake so massive it destroys the walls of the city and leaves the defenses in ruins, allowing the army to ransack it as they please.

Not going to lie, the build up and everything about that was one of the best I've ever read.

What is going to be your magic system? Items of Power? Ingredients? Willpower? Pacts with Eldritch creatures?

More of a belief idea. IT exists because people believe in it, or there is magic through out the world and has to be tapped into.

Also Will look into that book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I've never heard of them

Wow. I feel bad now hahaha.

I mean I've read a lot of books, And I have never encountered them.... Ever.

Alot of questions I ask are answered by them it seems. But yeah....

I will continue as questions though.

Never heard of the Wheel of Time series?

Yeah. My schools don't like those books apparently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Well. I've never heard of them until. Now.

Werebears
Werebears are similar to the werewolves. But only larger and more terrifying. Though lacking the speed of the werewolf. Werebears make up for it with large amount of strength and durability, they feel no pain, and unlike werewolves those that are werebears are fully aware that they are cursed. It is said that the first werebear was a Human called Yuron, he one day found a bear trapped and freed it. The Goddess of Beasts and the God of Nature descended upon him and offered him a choice, that he could safeguard all the animals of their kingdom or he could live forever.

He choose to safeguard all the animals and creatures of the God’s Kingdom, and he became the first werebear. The Werebears are not as vicious as Werewolves and are infact enemies of Werewolves. They are the allies of the Druids and the Werebears possess all their human intellect. They are also known for being able to transform into their forms whenever they wish, unlike werewolves.

They are known as the Guardians of the Forest, such as their Ancestor Yuron was. Who blessed many others with his power. They are often patrolling the forests for any who defile their forests.

If you're going to write, you need to practice proper grammar at all times. This includes notes that you share with others and replies on message boards.

Best of luck!

Agreed. I do have to work on my grammar. Thankfully most of the things here are early drafts.

Wheel of Time and Sword of Truth are considered two of the better more modern fantasy books (Both go on for 11 or so books, though). I would also add in Glenn Cook (Anything by him, like A Cruel Wind), but that's a personal recommendation, YMMV.

With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

 Slarg232 wrote:


With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

From his previous comments, I would hazard a guess that it's a bit like Orks... Just because you're a Space Marine doesn't mean that the warp lightning from the Weird Boy isn't going to hurt any less because you dont believe in Ork magic

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:


With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

From his previous comments, I would hazard a guess that it's a bit like Orks... Just because you're a Space Marine doesn't mean that the warp lightning from the Weird Boy isn't going to hurt any less because you dont believe in Ork magic

Basically. It will work like this it needs belief to work, but it also needs energy to function. If you believe in it that is all great and handy, but if you don''t have a battery what use are you going to be?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:


With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

From his previous comments, I would hazard a guess that it's a bit like Orks... Just because you're a Space Marine doesn't mean that the warp lightning from the Weird Boy isn't going to hurt any less because you dont believe in Ork magic

True, but I've always seen "Belief Magic" as this:

If you believe that you can shoot fireballs from your arse, solely because some guy who could showed you how, your magic comes from your being shown that it could happen; you literally only believe because you've seen it happen.

But what if I believe with 100%, nay 110% of my being that magic isn't real, isn't my own belief just as "magical"? Shouldn't that A) Prevent me from being able to use any sort of magic and B) Give me a sort of "Anti-Magic Belief Shield" due to my own strong beliefs? Naturally I would have to have the talent/mana to be able to keep said shield sustained (And if doing such caused fatigue, would wonder why I am so tired after being Avada Kadavra'ed several times).



Not that I have a problem with Belief Magic, but it is something to think about, no?

 Slarg232 wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:


With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

From his previous comments, I would hazard a guess that it's a bit like Orks... Just because you're a Space Marine doesn't mean that the warp lightning from the Weird Boy isn't going to hurt any less because you dont believe in Ork magic

True, but I've always seen "Belief Magic" as this:

If you believe that you can shoot fireballs from your arse, solely because some guy who could showed you how, your magic comes from your being shown that it could happen; you literally only believe because you've seen it happen.

But what if I believe with 100%, nay 110% of my being that magic isn't real, isn't my own belief just as "magical"? Shouldn't that A) Prevent me from being able to use any sort of magic and B) Give me a sort of "Anti-Magic Belief Shield" due to my own strong beliefs? Naturally I would have to have the talent/mana to be able to keep said shield sustained (And if doing such caused fatigue, would wonder why I am so tired after being Avada Kadavra'ed several times).



Not that I have a problem with Belief Magic, but it is something to think about, no?

Interesting. I'll consider that. But it would be more of an equation who ever truly believes in it and has the right tools to do so. You can't just yell fireball and think it works.

That would kind of be funny. I might keep that in the comedy world I am thinking about.

You could do some really interesting things with it; the character himself is like a giant Mana Battery who doesn't believe in magic, but after a giant magical assault has his reserves drained and he gets lit on fire by a fireball.

Do you know how much that would WRECK his beliefs? "If Magic isn't real.... how did I get hurt by it?"

One of the reasons I've never been able to write a book; I get to thinking about stories, come up with a small sub plot, and then that sub plot gets fully plotted out enough to become the main plot, and then come up with a small sub plot....

My current idea is Game of Thrones meets Justice League; Superheros, with Politics.

 Slarg232 wrote:
You could do some really interesting things with it; the character himself is like a giant Mana Battery who doesn't believe in magic, but after a giant magical assault has his reserves drained and he gets lit on fire by a fireball.

Do you know how much that would WRECK his beliefs? "If Magic isn't real.... how did I get hurt by it?"

One of the reasons I've never been able to write a book; I get to thinking about stories, come up with a small sub plot, and then that sub plot gets fully plotted out enough to become the main plot, and then come up with a small sub plot....

My current idea is Game of Thrones meets Justice League; Superheros, with Politics.

Haha. Yeah the main character does not ever use magic, through the course of the story. His brother might. I am still planning on it. But I might make fun of the fact that Adith does not have power by saying he is special in some way.

But yeah there might be deaths related to magic later in the book.

Alright guys,

So I've been thinking long and hard about a certain type of way to progress the story.

So the main bits will be.

Adith + Quientin + Stanimir (Adith's Body Guard) go out training in the wilderness and travel throughout Meorth

Wymond + Sir Loriane + Septimus (The Lord at Arms) go out to seek out the Cult reports with a sizable army to quell it. As there are whispers of a rebellion brewing

Slyvia + Rosella + Another Character will handle the Political situation. Rosella being one of the rangers (i.e. assassin) charged to protect Lady Slyvia Litor.

And then fourth and finale point of view will be from the eyes of the Men of Oren, a party of men who are scouting in Meroth. They are the most savage of the all characters and are quite possibly my favorite group of characters because of many reasons.

I might post a point of view later from each character point of view.

In total there will only ever be 4 major points of view in a single chapter. And it will exchange between all the characters. Some characters will get the light while other times the other characters will get the light.


Also I've been thinking and I've decided to make it so that the characters remain anonomyous looking, so the reader decides what the main characters look like. All we know is some are attractive, have a certain hair colors and that is about it.

I don't want to give the characters a ton of physical description because they have a lot of traits and history that will make up for that. This is a first for me because I usually go into detail about every single detail I can.

Anyone think that is a good or a bad idea?



Also I've been thinking about the plot and I am starting to change things around. Events will happen differently than I first planned out.

I wouldn't make your characters "anonymous looking", you should at least give a rudimentary physical description when they are introduced.

"He was a brute of a man, tall and broad, with a square set jaw, but his eyes were kind brown orbs, the only hint of softness in him."

Something like that. Generic enough to where you can fill in the details, but you get the point across that he's a big guy.

As for the points of view, I'd keep it to no more than 2 related points of view per chapter. That way you don't confuse a reader by jumping back and forth. Keeping it based on the chapter keeps it structured and lets the reader know you are switching viewpoints so they can collect their thoughts and remember what was happening last in that story arc.

With the arcs you currently have, separate them into 3.

Have (Slyvia + Rosella + Another Character) and (Adith + Quientin + Stanimir) be a single chapter and the other 2 arcs be their own separate chapters.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't make your characters "anonymous looking", you should at least give a rudimentary physical description when they are introduced.

"He was a brute of a man, tall and broad, with a square set jaw, but his eyes were kind brown orbs, the only hint of softness in him."

Something like that. Generic enough to where you can fill in the details, but you get the point across that he's a big guy.

As for the points of view, I'd keep it to no more than 2 related points of view per chapter. That way you don't confuse a reader by jumping back and forth. Keeping it based on the chapter keeps it structured and lets the reader know you are switching viewpoints so they can collect their thoughts and remember what was happening last in that story arc.

With the arcs you currently have, separate them into 3.

Have (Slyvia + Rosella + Another Character) and (Adith + Quientin + Stanimir) be a single chapter and the other 2 arcs be their own separate chapters.

Ahh okay. So just exchange it then. Good idea.

As each will take half a chapter for each point of view.

Should I split up the points of view or keep it as a single chunk and not split it up into multiple parts?

Each point of view should have a substantial chunk of "screentime", at least enough to where the reader doesn't feel like they're being jerked back and forth. Find natural break points to swap.

You could make an individual point of view shorter if it makes sense, such as where story lines are converging on the same point.

 Asherian Command wrote:


Werebears
Werebears are similar to the werewolves. But only larger and more terrifying. Though lacking the speed of the werewolf. Werebears make up for it with large amount of strength and durability, they feel no pain, and unlike werewolves those that are werebears are fully aware that they are cursed. It is said that the first werebear was a Human called Yuron, he one day found a bear trapped and freed it. The Goddess of Beasts and the God of Nature descended upon him and offered him a choice, that he could safeguard all the animals of their kingdom or he could live forever.

He choose to safeguard all the animals and creatures of the God’s Kingdom, and he became the first werebear. The Werebears are not as vicious as Werewolves and are infact enemies of Werewolves. They are the allies of the Druids and the Werebears possess all their human intellect. They are also known for being able to transform into their forms whenever they wish, unlike werewolves.

They are known as the Guardians of the Forest, such as their Ancestor Yuron was. Who blessed many others with his power. They are often patrolling the forests for any who defile their forests.

I like this, however to make it really work make the main werebear in your story a female. First it hightens the difference between vulnerable to invulnerable, a she-bear will likely be no smaller than the male bear, but the human form will be.
Also it prevents any confusion or connect to Beorn.
I also use werebears and werewolves but go a different route.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Trolls
Trolls are extremely vicious creatures, hostile and known for attacking caravans so that they may plunder for shiny things. They are known for starting avalanches, and rock slides to distract their prey.

Nice, very good iconography, keep it up. I like the hunt for shiny things. Is the avalanche starting a mystic power or just a large shout while in mountains, avalanches and rock slides also need to be set up, by weather or rolling boulders uphill, and are preventable.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Flesh Beast -

Flesh beasts are creatures of the God of Blood. Said to be formed from the flesh of hundreds of dead. They are creatures of hate and destruction. They are the enemies of all life. They have been known for killing dragons, trolls, giants, werewolves, and for entire caravans. The Flesh beasts travel by themselves and are always hungry. They come at the break of dawn, they hunt and stay near populated areas so that they will always have an ample amount of food.

An evil being that hunts specifically by day rather than night. I like the twist.

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Golden Horde

An ancient order that are inherently demons and former mortals that have gained the power of gods. The God of wealth though was turned into a dragon, his Demi God son took over his place as the God of Wealth, he uses his power unlike his father to feed his massed army of soldiers that are demons. He chooses those mortals that wish to not die and to make their lives worth some. They are on par with the knights of Obsidia. In fact the Knights of Obsidia drove the Golden Horde from their homeland. The two mercenary groups have been at war with each other ever since. The Golden Horde focus on magical abilities of water and ice. They are skilled at the powers they use and are known for being extremely needy in terms of money.
They are devious and extremely dangerous if not paid their full pensions. They only wish for one thing. Gold and wealth and fame and sex. They are skilled swordsmen, riders and if ever gathered into a single place are known for breaking entire battlements. Their cavarly and lancers are famed for being extremely powerful. Their terrifying charges have made entire battalions break.
The Demi-God only wants his forces to get large enough so that one day he may conquer a kingdom for his own. He is often very elusive in his Castle. The famed Palace of Silver, a Palace guarded by the Warrior of Greed. He surrounds himself with powerful guards and terrifying guardians. He even keeps the most exotic and beautiful women in the lands of Ör. He has many children that are within his palace many who have tried to kill him, but they are mortal and he is immortal. Where he kills them outright after they try to kill him.

There is a historical Golden Horde, one of the later Mongool kingdoms in what is now Russia.
You need to reword the above, its disjointed, but the imagination is fine.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Drauqr

Tasked with defending the final resting places of the dead. They are the guardians of the ancient dead. Created originally to protect artifacts. They are now commonly used to protect mass grave least a Necromancer gets their hands on a mass grave. Drauqr are the only exception to rule among mages to create beings from human remains. Drauqr are mages that are bound to the bones and armor of a long dead warrior. They are extremely powerful and practice their art while they guard their task given to them by The Mage Council.

They can still use their magics that they once used in their mortal lives, but now their magics are amplified. Their bodies are considered to be relics, which means their powers are tenfold. Drauqr are extremely potent and usually guard their tasks with another Drauqr. In times of great need the Drauqr are called upon for their knowledge and their powers.

None can tell you not to use Draugr, they have been in use in fantasy fro some time, so even if Bethesda/Zenimax try to be arseholes you can tell them they appeared before in 2000AD, as well as being Norse myth.
You are however describing Liches, not Draugr. Might as well get it right, call them liches, its what they are.

You could call them draugr anyway, but that isnt artistry, just ignorance.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Cù Sìth

The Cù Sìth are creatures or wolves that are mystical in origin. These creatures are ferocious and magical. They use poison and acidic magics. Their acidic magics are so potent that they can melt knights armor and flesh. The Cù Sìth are clever creatures and extremely intelligent, able to bring many to their deaths. They are known for teleporting and for having extremely terrible defenses compared to their wolf cousins a single sword swing could kill this creature. But the chances of actually hitting the Cù Sìth are very unlikely. Infact there have been a few demigods who were slain by a small group of Cù Sìth.

Acidic bite, or do they bark spells?

 Asherian Command wrote:

Donestre
Creatures that are said to have the strength of a lion and the power of a mage. They are feared creatures. As they are both man and lion. Having the face of a lion and intelligence of a man. They have powerful magics that very few know of. They usually guard ancient repistories of knowledge. They are known for being in conclaves, and small villages, which allow them to keep their numbers.

Lionmen, ok. You could try something other than lions though. One you have Thundercats, two you have Aslan both the individual God lion and the race from Traveller given the same name, Khajiit, Kilrathi, etc etc.

Lions could be one of their forms, perhaps your race could be 'half spareshifters' with Lions being one of their aspects, say rulership, want to be stronger become half bull, when you need to be faster half deer, see further/prophecy, half eagle. You can use all the fantasy animal geneotypes. It also ties in an Egyptian pantheon imagery.
Sounds to me this is a 'good' race, but one not to be messed with. Probably enemies of the Cu Sith and one of the few races that the acid wolves daren't try to attack.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Each point of view should have a substantial chunk of "screentime", at least enough to where the reader doesn't feel like they're being jerked back and forth. Find natural break points to swap.

You could make an individual point of view shorter if it makes sense, such as where story lines are converging on the same point.

Ah I see. Being Jerked/pulled around all over the place would be confusing. As I can see with my rough draft version.

I think the Golden Horde idea is a little clunky.

So you've got pretty much a cult of excess, who are both daemons and mortals? Too confusing.

I'd change it to be the mortal followers of a god excess and self-betterment. Kinda like Slannesh, but the older versions of Slannesh. As a follower, you are expected to excel at everything. Its a competition for their god's favor, the best individual gets the favors and rewards. Rewards which come in all things.

No mortal ascension to daemon/godhood, except possibly the upper circles of leadership. Maybe they sort of do a Dreadnought thing with some of their members who have ascended. They have some sort of artificial body that they can possess and walk into battle as daemonic metal warriors made of brass and iron. So rare occurrences but it would still be there.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't make your characters "anonymous looking", you should at least give a rudimentary physical description when they are introduced.

"He was a brute of a man, tall and broad, with a square set jaw, but his eyes were kind brown orbs, the only hint of softness in him."

Something like that. Generic enough to where you can fill in the details, but you get the point across that he's a big guy.

Good call, but you can choose to make one character very nondescript, in which case rough size and gender is all that is claimed, plus the colour of skin hair and eyes showing. You coukld than have that person nondescript for a reason.
This is for an exception though.

 Grey Templar wrote:

As for the points of view, I'd keep it to no more than 2 related points of view per chapter. That way you don't confuse a reader by jumping back and forth. Keeping it based on the chapter keeps it structured and lets the reader know you are switching viewpoints so they can collect their thoughts and remember what was happening last in that story arc.

POV characters, one per chapter maximum and the POV character cant die in their own chapter, but can die on the last paragraph of it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

With the arcs you currently have, separate them into 3.

Have (Slyvia + Rosella + Another Character) and (Adith + Quientin + Stanimir) be a single chapter and the other 2 arcs be their own separate chapters.

Keep story arcs to seprate chapters unless you have a clash in which case you can delimit paragraphs, but this should be done sparingly.

While on the subject of viewpoint characters.

Traditionally (this traditon is largely now ignored) POV character should not die at all, as they are witnesses to events and tell the story after it is complete. If you are going to kill off POV characters then you may as well have Third Party Omniscient (TPO) writing style. I find it more convenient personally as it allows a better flow of description and can add colour the character relating to the story cant see.

For eample GRRMartin could not have written Frodo's, or Sam's journey through Shelobs lair, because it involved two specific elements to TPO writing, first the main focus characters split during the journey, second Tolkien describes things that the hobbits were entirely ignorant of.
ASOIAF is a soap opera, most of the characters are high lords playing politics, with some local colour thrown in. It doesn't really work for high fantasy. It can do, but unless you have a sage explaining everything as you go along you will experience things the characters cant comprehend. Writing up that and making it understandable to the reader is very difficult.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't make your characters "anonymous looking", you should at least give a rudimentary physical description when they are introduced.

"He was a brute of a man, tall and broad, with a square set jaw, but his eyes were kind brown orbs, the only hint of softness in him."

Something like that. Generic enough to where you can fill in the details, but you get the point across that he's a big guy.

Good call, but you can choose to make one character very nondescript, in which case rough size and gender is all that is claimed, plus the colour of skin hair and eyes showing. You coukld than have that person nondescript for a reason.
This is for an exception though.

In most books that I've read, the "nondescript" character usually falls into one of three categories: he/she is an assassin and will thus have different appearances throughout the book. He/she is a wizard/sorceress wearing robes and oversized hoods that cover almost all features. and finally He/she is so unimportant they are dead, or will die within a few pages-paragraphs


I've also seen some books (rare mind you, I'm rather selective of what I read) where the author goes out of their way to make sure you know that the character is nondescript... You know "he rode into town on an unassuming horse, wearing a plain coat, with very bland, nondescript features, he walked nondescriptly toward the nondescript local tavern" which... well, it's bad when that happens.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:


With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

From his previous comments, I would hazard a guess that it's a bit like Orks... Just because you're a Space Marine doesn't mean that the warp lightning from the Weird Boy isn't going to hurt any less because you dont believe in Ork magic

Basically. It will work like this it needs belief to work, but it also needs energy to function. If you believe in it that is all great and handy, but if you don''t have a battery what use are you going to be?

Belief in itself is a poor rational for magic. Its a very good rational for a magical level of a region. This goes back to biblical examples:
"And because of their unbelief, he (Jesus) couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them." Mark 6:5
If unbelief can partially shut down a deity, what will it do to a wizard. (This is not a religion thread, Biblical comment used as a mythic example NOT a religious one)


Now a better rational for actual use of magic is Will. Tolkien for example uses will a lot, when he describes magic at all, and the Will to perform magic is rare, can be drained and is hard to quantify.
Will is effectively still belief, but it has more oomph behind it.

For example if a bunch of villagers witness a spell, and they as a result all now genuinely believe in magic, can/will they all become magicians?

 Orlanth wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:


With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

From his previous comments, I would hazard a guess that it's a bit like Orks... Just because you're a Space Marine doesn't mean that the warp lightning from the Weird Boy isn't going to hurt any less because you dont believe in Ork magic

Basically. It will work like this it needs belief to work, but it also needs energy to function. If you believe in it that is all great and handy, but if you don''t have a battery what use are you going to be?

Belief in itself is a poor rational for magic. Its a very good rational for a magical level of a region. This goes back to biblical examples:
"And because of their unbelief, he (Jesus) couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them." Mark 6:5
If unbelief can partially shut down a deity, what will it do to a wizard. (This is not a religion thread, Biblical comment used as a mythic example NOT a religious one)


Now a better rational for actual use of magic is Will. Tolkien for example uses will a lot, when he describes magic at all, and the Will to perform magic is rare, can be drained and is hard to quantify.
Will is effectively still belief, but it has more oomph behind it.

For example if a bunch of villagers witness a spell, and they as a result all now genuinely believe in magic, can/will they all become magicians?

Good point. I could take that. Like if someone sees it done they could possibly do it, but they might have it backfire because they are not trained to do so. So Will is a better way to have magic. There might be spells or incantations and runes that have power that can be muttered for effect. And this belief and there will intermingle into something powerful. The combination of the two might be the magic user's source of absolute power.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Each point of view should have a substantial chunk of "screentime", at least enough to where the reader doesn't feel like they're being jerked back and forth. Find natural break points to swap.

You could make an individual point of view shorter if it makes sense, such as where story lines are converging on the same point.

Ah I see. Being Jerked/pulled around all over the place would be confusing. As I can see with my rough draft version.

Honestly, seriously, DONT have too many main characters.
Especially as if you write more books more characters will be added, stories evolve. So try and keep it down.

Most fantasy writers with long sagas end up with this problem, Tolkien had the discipline not to, but Martin has made the mistake and conformed regretting it and even vowing to add no more, Wheel of Time and other series also fill up with POV/main characters.
The only way to have lots of main characters in a serries and make it work is to do stand alone books, Diskworld series is a good example. Pratchet can have as many main characters as he likes, because he can write thme into their own stories, notic how Diskworld books are also a a lot shorter than the average fantasy fare, so he can afford. If you go the fantasy brick books which are common for serious fantasy you can get in over your head quickly.

I have caught up with the thread now .

 Asherian Command wrote:

Good point. I could take that. Like if someone sees it done they could possibly do it, but they might have it backfire because they are not trained to do so. So Will is a better way to have magic. There might be spells or incantations and runes that have power that can be muttered for effect. And this belief and there will intermingle into something powerful. The combination of the two might be the magic user's source of absolute power.

I'd suggest something a little more... Academic?? Perhaps, just seeing Gandalf shoot fireballs from his arse isn't enough to do it, and it WILL backfire on them due to imbalance, or not being trained. An idea could be to take sort of a Shaolin Monk approach to it... The wizards study and meditate on the various works of previous master magicians, and try to balance their Qi to the element, or a particular element they wish to use. For instance, if they are going into battle with undead (who are universally accepted to be weak to fire) a group of these wizards with the army would spend the day or two prior to battle meditating on the element of fire, and sort of attune themselves to the world. The will would come from the sheer power of these elements/power of magic that could/would sweep them away (possibly, if they lose control, they literally disintegrate and cease to exist, no body to bury or anything).

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:


With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

From his previous comments, I would hazard a guess that it's a bit like Orks... Just because you're a Space Marine doesn't mean that the warp lightning from the Weird Boy isn't going to hurt any less because you dont believe in Ork magic

Basically. It will work like this it needs belief to work, but it also needs energy to function. If you believe in it that is all great and handy, but if you don''t have a battery what use are you going to be?

Belief in itself is a poor rational for magic. Its a very good rational for a magical level of a region. This goes back to biblical examples:
"And because of their unbelief, he (Jesus) couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them." Mark 6:5
If unbelief can partially shut down a deity, what will it do to a wizard. (This is not a religion thread, Biblical comment used as a mythic example NOT a religious one)


Now a better rational for actual use of magic is Will. Tolkien for example uses will a lot, when he describes magic at all, and the Will to perform magic is rare, can be drained and is hard to quantify.
Will is effectively still belief, but it has more oomph behind it.

For example if a bunch of villagers witness a spell, and they as a result all now genuinely believe in magic, can/will they all become magicians?

Good point. I could take that. Like if someone sees it done they could possibly do it, but they might have it backfire because they are not trained to do so. So Will is a better way to have magic. There might be spells or incantations and runes that have power that can be muttered for effect. And this belief and there will intermingle into something powerful. The combination of the two might be the magic user's source of absolute power.

Belief is a subset of will, you cannot have will where you have no belief, not with regards to a mental purpose, you can politically have a will based on falsehood (it happens all the time), but that is different.
Belief is not enough, but will is and it encompasses belief and knowledge (which may be factually incorrect), and focus. Best of all its both simple and extraordinarily complex at the same time. Magic should be like that, describable simply but requiring immense wisdom built up over time, or a lot of blood sacrifice or a dark pact to coax out of the universe.
Many creatures simply will not have enough will to do magic, humans for example.

When in doubt look to Tolkien, he got it spot on most of the time. The trick is not to follow the Master of Fantasy too closely.

There are alternatives though:

Secret Knowledge - Its not the powef that matters its knowing the incantations, will comes into it again, but if someone steal a spellbook they have access to the secret knowledge. This is always a good tie in.
Spiritual pacts -- perhaps it requires a demon or friendly spirit to enable any magic you do. This may or may not mean that all spellcasting is channeled/religious in nature.
Blood - Magic is in your blood, humans don't have much magic blood, elves a whiole lot more etc but some bloodlines with magical potential exist, or some rare people can be born magical (seventh son etc).

Most will perform better if Will is at least a factor, even if not the deciding factor.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Werebears
Werebears are similar to the werewolves. But only larger and more terrifying. Though lacking the speed of the werewolf. Werebears make up for it with large amount of strength and durability, they feel no pain, and unlike werewolves those that are werebears are fully aware that they are cursed. It is said that the first werebear was a Human called Yuron, he one day found a bear trapped and freed it. The Goddess of Beasts and the God of Nature descended upon him and offered him a choice, that he could safeguard all the animals of their kingdom or he could live forever.

He choose to safeguard all the animals and creatures of the God’s Kingdom, and he became the first werebear. The Werebears are not as vicious as Werewolves and are infact enemies of Werewolves. They are the allies of the Druids and the Werebears possess all their human intellect. They are also known for being able to transform into their forms whenever they wish, unlike werewolves.

They are known as the Guardians of the Forest, such as their Ancestor Yuron was. Who blessed many others with his power. They are often patrolling the forests for any who defile their forests.

I like this, however to make it really work make the main werebear in your story a female. First it hightens the difference between vulnerable to invulnerable, a she-bear will likely be no smaller than the male bear, but the human form will be.
Also it prevents any confusion or connect to Beorn.
I also use werebears and werewolves but go a different route.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Trolls
Trolls are extremely vicious creatures, hostile and known for attacking caravans so that they may plunder for shiny things. They are known for starting avalanches, and rock slides to distract their prey.

Nice, very good iconography, keep it up. I like the hunt for shiny things. Is the avalanche starting a mystic power or just a large shout while in mountains, avalanches and rock slides also need to be set up, by weather or rolling boulders uphill, and are preventable.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Flesh Beast -

Flesh beasts are creatures of the God of Blood. Said to be formed from the flesh of hundreds of dead. They are creatures of hate and destruction. They are the enemies of all life. They have been known for killing dragons, trolls, giants, werewolves, and for entire caravans. The Flesh beasts travel by themselves and are always hungry. They come at the break of dawn, they hunt and stay near populated areas so that they will always have an ample amount of food.

An evil being that hunts specifically by day rather than night. I like the twist.

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Golden Horde

An ancient order that are inherently demons and former mortals that have gained the power of gods. The God of wealth though was turned into a dragon, his Demi God son took over his place as the God of Wealth, he uses his power unlike his father to feed his massed army of soldiers that are demons. He chooses those mortals that wish to not die and to make their lives worth some. They are on par with the knights of Obsidia. In fact the Knights of Obsidia drove the Golden Horde from their homeland. The two mercenary groups have been at war with each other ever since. The Golden Horde focus on magical abilities of water and ice. They are skilled at the powers they use and are known for being extremely needy in terms of money.
They are devious and extremely dangerous if not paid their full pensions. They only wish for one thing. Gold and wealth and fame and sex. They are skilled swordsmen, riders and if ever gathered into a single place are known for breaking entire battlements. Their cavarly and lancers are famed for being extremely powerful. Their terrifying charges have made entire battalions break.
The Demi-God only wants his forces to get large enough so that one day he may conquer a kingdom for his own. He is often very elusive in his Castle. The famed Palace of Silver, a Palace guarded by the Warrior of Greed. He surrounds himself with powerful guards and terrifying guardians. He even keeps the most exotic and beautiful women in the lands of Ör. He has many children that are within his palace many who have tried to kill him, but they are mortal and he is immortal. Where he kills them outright after they try to kill him.

There is a historical Golden Horde, one of the later Mongool kingdoms in what is now Russia.
You need to reword the above, its disjointed, but the imagination is fine.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Drauqr

Tasked with defending the final resting places of the dead. They are the guardians of the ancient dead. Created originally to protect artifacts. They are now commonly used to protect mass grave least a Necromancer gets their hands on a mass grave. Drauqr are the only exception to rule among mages to create beings from human remains. Drauqr are mages that are bound to the bones and armor of a long dead warrior. They are extremely powerful and practice their art while they guard their task given to them by The Mage Council.

They can still use their magics that they once used in their mortal lives, but now their magics are amplified. Their bodies are considered to be relics, which means their powers are tenfold. Drauqr are extremely potent and usually guard their tasks with another Drauqr. In times of great need the Drauqr are called upon for their knowledge and their powers.

None can tell you not to use Draugr, they have been in use in fantasy fro some time, so even if Bethesda/Zenimax try to be arseholes you can tell them they appeared before in 2000AD, as well as being Norse myth.
You are however describing Liches, not Draugr. Might as well get it right, call them liches, its what they are.

You could call them draugr anyway, but that isnt artistry, just ignorance.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Cù Sìth

The Cù Sìth are creatures or wolves that are mystical in origin. These creatures are ferocious and magical. They use poison and acidic magics. Their acidic magics are so potent that they can melt knights armor and flesh. The Cù Sìth are clever creatures and extremely intelligent, able to bring many to their deaths. They are known for teleporting and for having extremely terrible defenses compared to their wolf cousins a single sword swing could kill this creature. But the chances of actually hitting the Cù Sìth are very unlikely. Infact there have been a few demigods who were slain by a small group of Cù Sìth.

Acidic bite, or do they bark spells?

 Asherian Command wrote:

Donestre
Creatures that are said to have the strength of a lion and the power of a mage. They are feared creatures. As they are both man and lion. Having the face of a lion and intelligence of a man. They have powerful magics that very few know of. They usually guard ancient repistories of knowledge. They are known for being in conclaves, and small villages, which allow them to keep their numbers.

Lionmen, ok. You could try something other than lions though. One you have Thundercats, two you have Aslan both the individual God lion and the race from Traveller given the same name, Khajiit, Kilrathi, etc etc.

Lions could be one of their forms, perhaps your race could be 'half spareshifters' with Lions being one of their aspects, say rulership, want to be stronger become half bull, when you need to be faster half deer, see further/prophecy, half eagle. You can use all the fantasy animal geneotypes. It also ties in an Egyptian pantheon imagery.
Sounds to me this is a 'good' race, but one not to be messed with. Probably enemies of the Cu Sith and one of the few races that the acid wolves daren't try to attack.

A female werebear hmmm.

Interesting. I do have a female character that is quite awesome. And that so happens to be Wymond's Wife. Who is revealed to be an Oren Princess. Who are known to be. *ahem* Wild.

Cu Suth have poisonous skin and fur. If you touch one you die. Their bites are acidic and can melt through armor.

I also have of course have banshees.

Banshees are terrifying creatures from Maidens who died in complete and utter anguish and by a violent death. They have returned to the mortal coil to exact vengeance upon the world. They are often thought to be more than just ghosts, as they have a physical appearance.. They often hide in the body of a woman. When provoked the reveal their terrifying visage and use their craft to kill and silence them. But sometimes banshees can also hide in the visage of a beautiful woman. They sing songs and dance in the moon light and entice men unwillingly to their doom.

They are enemies to all of the woodland creatures, especially wolves.

I will continue writing the creatures. But their might be a banshee in the story as they like to go where there might be an upcoming apocalypse that might attract magical creatures.


And yeah Lionmen, ehhh. They were just sorta there. I threw them out during planning stages of my book as I found them so uninteresting and such a bore. They were then replaced by yetis (think aborigine inspired shamanism), goatmen and beast masters (Inspired by Beauty and the beast, except think an entire racce of the beast by themselves ruling the forests). Those are just ideas and they might be executed in short stories. As there is so much information to go over.

I also have nuclavee but they will only be mentioned briefly as they might be a bigger enemy after the events of the first book.

*removed*

 Orlanth wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Each point of view should have a substantial chunk of "screentime", at least enough to where the reader doesn't feel like they're being jerked back and forth. Find natural break points to swap.

You could make an individual point of view shorter if it makes sense, such as where story lines are converging on the same point.

Ah I see. Being Jerked/pulled around all over the place would be confusing. As I can see with my rough draft version.

Honestly, seriously, DONT have too many main characters.
Especially as if you write more books more characters will be added, stories evolve. So try and keep it down.

Most fantasy writers with long sagas end up with this problem, Tolkien had the discipline not to, but Martin has made the mistake and conformed regretting it and even vowing to add no more, Wheel of Time and other series also fill up with POV/main characters.
The only way to have lots of main characters in a serries and make it work is to do stand alone books, Diskworld series is a good example. Pratchet can have as many main characters as he likes, because he can write thme into their own stories, notic how Diskworld books are also a a lot shorter than the average fantasy fare, so he can afford. If you go the fantasy brick books which are common for serious fantasy you can get in over your head quickly.

I have caught up with the thread now .

Its probably fortunate for SOIAF that it did get made into a TV show where having a couple dozen main characters can work. Otherwise, it is best if you give each storyline its own platform instead of mashing them all together.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:


With the Magic, if I don't believe in magic, am I still affected by it?

From his previous comments, I would hazard a guess that it's a bit like Orks... Just because you're a Space Marine doesn't mean that the warp lightning from the Weird Boy isn't going to hurt any less because you dont believe in Ork magic

Basically. It will work like this it needs belief to work, but it also needs energy to function. If you believe in it that is all great and handy, but if you don''t have a battery what use are you going to be?

Belief in itself is a poor rational for magic. Its a very good rational for a magical level of a region. This goes back to biblical examples:
"And because of their unbelief, he (Jesus) couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them." Mark 6:5
If unbelief can partially shut down a deity, what will it do to a wizard. (This is not a religion thread, Biblical comment used as a mythic example NOT a religious one)


Now a better rational for actual use of magic is Will. Tolkien for example uses will a lot, when he describes magic at all, and the Will to perform magic is rare, can be drained and is hard to quantify.
Will is effectively still belief, but it has more oomph behind it.

For example if a bunch of villagers witness a spell, and they as a result all now genuinely believe in magic, can/will they all become magicians?

Good point. I could take that. Like if someone sees it done they could possibly do it, but they might have it backfire because they are not trained to do so. So Will is a better way to have magic. There might be spells or incantations and runes that have power that can be muttered for effect. And this belief and there will intermingle into something powerful. The combination of the two might be the magic user's source of absolute power.

Belief is a subset of will, you cannot have will where you have no belief, not with regards to a mental purpose, you can politically have a will based on falsehood (it happens all the time), but that is different.
Belief is not enough, but will is and it encompasses belief and knowledge (which may be factually incorrect), and focus. Best of all its both simple and extraordinarily complex at the same time. Magic should be like that, describable simply but requiring immense wisdom built up over time, or a lot of blood sacrifice or a dark pact to coax out of the universe.
Many creatures simply will not have enough will to do magic, humans for example.

When in doubt look to Tolkien, he got it spot on most of the time. The trick is not to follow the Master of Fantasy too closely.

There are alternatives though:

Secret Knowledge - Its not the powef that matters its knowing the incantations, will comes into it again, but if someone steal a spellbook they have access to the secret knowledge. This is always a good tie in.
Spiritual pacts -- perhaps it requires a demon or friendly spirit to enable any magic you do. This may or may not mean that all spellcasting is channeled/religious in nature.
Blood - Magic is in your blood, humans don't have much magic blood, elves a whiole lot more etc but some bloodlines with magical potential exist, or some rare people can be born magical (seventh son etc).

Most will perform better if Will is at least a factor, even if not the deciding factor.

You could do a combination. Where there is a variety of ways to get it. Like you need to have both the blood and inctantions in order to use magic and your power is exceled to you by a god or another being of power.

Its probably fortunate for SOIAF that it did get made into a TV show where having a couple dozen main characters can work. Otherwise, it is best if you give each storyline its own platform instead of mashing them all together.

Yeah. I mean I wasn't planning on mashing them all together, but they all are subplots to the major storyline. They are just seeing things in different areas that are reacting to a major event.

 Asherian Command wrote:

You could do a combination. Where there is a variety of ways to get it. Like you need to have both the blood and inctantions in order to use magic and your power is exceled to you by a god or another being of power.

That is actually quite the idea... break magic down like a religion (sort of)... where, once upon a time, some super-badass godlike wizard had gaktons of power. He's long gone, but his 2 or 3 apprentices at the time of his death went on to become powerful mages in their own rights, each following the teaching of their master as they thought he'd want them to. Over time each of these schools passed on their own teachings and drifted further and further apart. So, one school of thought could be very stoic, all Zen monk meditations and balanced life. Another school could be the "feel the power of the magic, let it flow through you, ride it's currents but dont get sucked under". And the final school be something entirely different.

Obviously, I wouldn't have them be completely like a religion (where they each view each other as the "one true way", but rather they have a mutual respect, even if they feel their way is best)

*RemoveD*

I am getting down to what House Litor's Symbol is. It is quite hard because its hard to see what is more interesting and what I could use as a symbol.

I have a few symbols in mind. And there is no doubt suppose to be metaphorical value behind them.

So the first one is the Hawk. I will add flames to it but I got from a website. This is only a prototype, as I plan on making the symbol myself.


Phoenix


A sea serpent or lake serpent