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DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
You still have the problem that you're wasting an ObSec Land Raider to deliver Mephiston into combat when he used to be able to get there on his own.

I do not argue that fact. Just pointing out a flaw in everyone's argument on timing. Like i said, I never said he was a must take or a great choice.

The quality on the posts on these boards has really dropped recently :(

ThatSwellFella wrote:Take Mephiston: Roll for biomancy, Pray for Iron arm endurance and warp speed. Obliterate anything that he gets close to. Perhaps 14 death Company followed by chaplain to kill stuff, while mephy takes the challenge... S9 T9 AP2 attacks(due to smash) 9 attacks on the charge(not sure) and initiative 9(not sure again)... And GK/BA/SW complain about losing their codex powers...(i can understand the wolves tho)

Random
is
bad

You are just as likely to end up with life leech, endurance and haemo as warp speed and iron arm. You only really NEED iron arm, but that's only about a 50/50 chance.

THEN you need to cast them. At one warp charge each, you are going to want to throw 3 dice at each (giving a only 87.5% chance to successfully cast when a LD10 power used to be 91.6%), which means you need 6 dice AT LEAST, meaning you need to roll a 3+ for how many power dice you get each turn. You will RARELY get the third power off, if ever. Then you need to pray your opponent doesn't luck out and nullify iron arm....and they will throw ALL of their dice at it, I guarantee.

Good players are good because they mitigate randomness. Meph is too random in 7th edition.

Kangodo wrote:I might test both Mephiston and Death Company tomorrow against Orks.

My favourite way to field them is with Bolters; using Rapid Fire for two shots and then assaulting with 4 attacks.
5 models can put out 30 S4 attacks in one turn; I'm definitely attaching a Chaplain to them.
Combine that in a LRC, attach a DC-dread for scoring lulz.

Everybody on BnC thinkgs Mephy with Corby is ridiculously strong, so I'm seeing if I have the points for that.

The Meph/Corb star is nice, in theory, because T9, 3+ save, with a 2+ FnP is....slowed to try to kill. Corb alone is harder to kill then an entire terminator squad with small arms, and bumping him to T9....bleh. The problem is transport obviously, and without meph having sword of sang now, he can be stopped by dreads, T8 and 2+ stuff pretty easily.

I'd also be very careful putting bolters on death company. You are trading a WS5, S5, I4 attack with no AP, for a BS4, S4 AP5 shot basically. It's not AWFUL, but only if the combat is going to last 1 round, the extra deaths from the bolter fire doesn't strand any of your DC out of melee range (or god forbid, all of them!) and/or the opponent is WS5 or I4 as well. Generally speaking, you are much better of going BP/CCW for a generalist unit unless you are walking them across the board (bad idea IMO).

Remtek wrote:

each-uisge wrote:

This one i'm not sure... DC is overpriced, and you will need to put them on a vehicle because they are no use if need to walk to their target; plus, with chainsword are no more effective than assault squad. +15 point for a power weapon boost their cost to the sky. And i'm not talking about jump pack!!!

I agree that JP is overpriced, but rest i disagree with. They have 1 more attack, fnp and WS 5. You can't challenge them, so your i1/i2 weapons cant get blocked by other characters at i4+ and they have 5 attacks on the charge. One power axe is 5 ap2 hits assaulting. IMO they are the strongest unit to put in a Landraider(2-3 power weapon/fists no hq required) Them not being able to score is less of an issue in 7th due to 90% of your army can do that including the dedicated transport.

They hardcounter other MEQ and TH/SS termies.

20 point power armor melee troops......bleh. The jetpacks are a JOKE. Should be 3-5 points, tops. Melee isn't really a big seller anymore really. DC are among the best power armor melee troops in the game, and people still don't think they are great. Just goes to show that melee isn't where it's at anymore.

PastelAvenger wrote:I have been using 5 DC with jump packs and fist, it's not a cheap unit but the terror it fills my opponents with is enough so they tend to leave my other heavy hitters alone like my Baals, maybe that's because they're inexperienced but 5 WS 5 S 5 attacks on the charge is nothing to be sniffed at. If they got rending in the new codex in my eyes they would be perfect.

Your opponents are bad if they are "terror filled" by 5 power armored melee guys. They could have 50 S10 attacks at I10 and it shouldn't make any difference to most people, as they will just shoot them in the face before they see combat.

ChapertMasterRagnaValick wrote:at 1500 Im fielding 3 razor backs and 3 drop pods I allie with Vanilla marines , 3 assault squads in the razorbacks a 5 man DC with power fist and 2 8 man TS in the other 2 drop pods 1st turn i drop in the 2 TS making them focus on though units while the razorbacks provide support the DC come in later to pull a troop unit off an objective and whip anything left over out . Alos how is Gabriael Seth not a good character in the BA codex I get 4 attacks base at Strength 8 rending and the ability to instant hit anything he is in base contact with for only 160 points you hes not bad

Seth isn't AP2....hell, he's not even AP3. Anything in power armor or better will laugh at, and walk all over him. Probably the worst, or second worst character in the book, which is saying a lot with non-starers like Astaroth, Sanguinor and whatnot in there. In a world where space marine bike characters exist, he is badly out of his league,

Just checked Torrent of Fire for the recent tourny results, BA are hugging the bottom of the power rankings this year with Orks and SoB.....and now Orks have a new book that is at least marginally better than there old one, BA might be the uncontested worst army in the game (or at least shared with SoB). If you want to play BA and actually win, use the vanilla marine book for now.

^pretty much yep to everything Carnage has said there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although remember corbs himself is not actually bumped to t9 so still gets ID'd by st8 with no fnp.

I play both BA and SoB, it's tough going but I still have alot of fun.

Let's talk sang priests, I'm not fully convinced they're worth their points anymore. I'm spending 180 on 2 JP PW priests in most my lists, that's nearly enough for another squad of either troops (obj sec) or something else. Since everything scores is more units better than a few slightly more durable units?

D

PastelAvenger wrote:I have been using 5 DC with jump packs and fist, it's not a cheap unit but the terror it fills my opponents with is enough so they tend to leave my other heavy hitters alone like my Baals, maybe that's because they're inexperienced but 5 WS 5 S 5 attacks on the charge is nothing to be sniffed at. If they got rending in the new codex in my eyes they would be perfect.

each-uisge wrote:well a single DC with JP and PW is 50 point; 10 of them with a chaplain is 615 point, 655 if you put a reclusiarch. it HAS to be scaring!
however, at the same cost you put 2x LR with a 5 men troop with plasma, and in the end i found the latter more useful, versatile and survivable (and i'm not saying scoring)

If I run a 10 man squad they always get a landraider the jump packs just become too expensive with anymore than 5

PastelAvenger wrote:however a Divination Libby/w Honour guard has been the bane of many Imperial Guard players recently

each-uisge wrote:just a question: why honour guard and not a 5 men sternguard (with those nasty special ammunition) plus SP? they are more cost efficient and got no less options... or am i wrong?

They come with FNP have and more moveability if you take them with Jump Packs (which I do). After paying for a transport for Sternguard (cheapest form being a drop pod) there is only a 40pt difference which isn't a great amount. I also find with the fast paced nature of a BA army the Sternguard get left behind.

Carnage43 wrote:
Random
is
bad

Totally agree

Carnage43 wrote:I'd also be very careful putting bolters on death company. You are trading a WS5, S5, I4 attack with no AP, for a BS4, S4 AP5 shot basically. It's not AWFUL, but only if the combat is going to last 1 round, the extra deaths from the bolter fire doesn't strand any of your DC out of melee range (or god forbid, all of them!) and/or the opponent is WS5 or I4 as well. Generally speaking, you are much better of going BP/CCW for a generalist unit unless you are walking them across the board (bad idea IMO).

You can still equip bolter AND a pw
you basically trade off a single attack (A2 with a single ccw, that's the pw, for a A3 with pw and bolt pistol) for a second shot at 12", or to increase shoot to 24"
doe'snt look awful for me, considering that melee is just a probability

Carnage43 wrote:
Just checked Torrent of Fire for the recent tourny results, BA are hugging the bottom of the power rankings this year with Orks and SoB.....and now Orks have a new book that is at least marginally better than there old one, BA might be the uncontested worst army in the game (or at least shared with SoB). If you want to play BA and actually win, use the vanilla marine book for now.

well, i have BA and i whanna play BA; really.
i'm playing with friends, for fun, and not in a tournament, so i'm not searching for a "omg you can't lose with this list"; however, sometime i whanna try if there are some options to create an "half competitive" list, something who actually could win if you are a bit lucky, skilled, or if opponent did an error.
i tried using Razorspam list, with or without big alpha strike drop pod/baal tactic; i tried using wall of raiders + termies; i tried using jump squad assault swarm
the only list who was a little more effective was the one with big tank and stormraven

just asked if in 7th edition could be some alternatives, or if big tank with termies are still the only option

PastelAvenger wrote:

PastelAvenger wrote:however a Divination Libby/w Honour guard has been the bane of many Imperial Guard players recently

each-uisge wrote:just a question: why honour guard and not a 5 men sternguard (with those nasty special ammunition) plus SP? they are more cost efficient and got no less options... or am i wrong?

They come with FNP have and more moveability if you take them with Jump Packs (which I do). After paying for a transport for Sternguard (cheapest form being a drop pod) there is only a 40pt difference which isn't a great amount. I also find with the fast paced nature of a BA army the Sternguard get left behind.

Ok you're talking about JP honour guard; jump pack is expensive x_x
i was saying that
- 3 hnour guard w combi-plasma + blood champion w pw + sanguinary novitiate on drop pod or
- 4 sternguard w combi-plasma + sergeant w lightning claw and bolter + sanguinary priest on drop pod
are same cost and i got
1 more marine
sanguinary priest (that's better than sanguinary novitiate)
special ammonition

Also because of the FAQ Vanguard Vets can now assault after Deep Striking which is kind of huge. Watched my buddies x2 10 man Vanguard Vet squads wreck a Tau army because they came down, survived overwatch and went to town.

I actually think BA have gotten a pretty severe buff in the new edition. The meta is moving away from plasma into melta, with an emphasis on things like whirlwinds and wyverns for anti troop. Melta has never really scared anything other than vehicles and super elite armies, and str4 vs 3+ armor and fnp is pretty bad.

Aside from meta changes, our librarians went down to a reasonable price to get ml2, libby dreads went to ml2 for no reason or increase in price, and all of our vehicles (dreads, baal preds, ravens, and raiders being the ones that come to mind) became harder to kill.

Going back to the meta shift back to melta, we have ALWAYS had access to cheap and mobile melta weaponry. Between jump packs, fast transports, Dante and DOA, we can bring heavy anti tank guns to bear faster than almost any other army. Furthermore, other previously top tier armies were brought low by 7th edition, taudar and seer counsel chief among them.

Mephiston isnt better or worse, honestly. Just... different. Various mephistar lists will pop up, and im sure many of them will do well. Oh, and sanguinary priests of some type are definitely still good. Having furious charge and feel no pain is still better than not having it, and remains one of the key strengths of the book.

Truth be told, Blood Angelz haven't been in this strong of a position in YEARS, and I for one am perfectly happy waiting for a while on a new codex.

In closing... I still have no clue why everyone thinks sanguinary guard are bad. Fast moving accurate deep striking melta with strong close combat prowess and objective secured in artificer armor? Yeah. Real bad.

I like to use them as an allied detatchment to my SOB army. I just take Dante and a group of sanguine guard w/ inferous pistols. Stick dante in quth seraphim and celestine for a 2nd beat stick using seraphim as meat shields/ pre-assault wound generators and have celestine and dante go to down with their power weapons and invul saves. The sanguine guard are for tank busting or wombo-combo with dante/celestine to angel sandwich a troublesome unit so it can't run away. I feel very spoiled with the no scatter from dante and only 1d6 scatter with SG

Consider the following as a base:

5 man assault marine squad in an Objective Secured Land Raider Redeemer
5 man assault marine squad in an Objective Secured Land Raider Redeemer
5 man assault marine squad in an Objective Secured Land Raider Redeemer

Stormraven w/ TL Lascannon and TL Multi-melta
Stormraven w/ TL Lascannon and TL Multi-melta

The cost of which is 1345pts.

I don't care what you do with the remaining points, that's a great start...

I'm sorry to say, but my BA are on the shelf for now. I could deal with the "twice the price" lameness so long as I had cool stuff like flying dreads and beatstick/unique libbys. The fact of the matter is that most of our powers were needed to help us make it to conbat. The others were oodles of fun to use that ALMOST made you forget about the rest of the gakky dex.

Now I could run a gimmick list like OS LR spam or AV13 spam, but where's the fun or originality in that? IMO the BA have some of the coolest fluff and THE coolest models in 40k, but as far as playability, losing the book powers was the last straw.

I disagree with a lot of your points.

 th3maninblak wrote:
I actually think BA have gotten a pretty severe buff in the new edition. The meta is moving away from plasma into melta, with an emphasis on things like whirlwinds and wyverns for anti troop. Melta has never really scared anything other than vehicles and super elite armies, and str4 vs 3+ armor and fnp is pretty bad.

Aside from meta changes, our librarians went down to a reasonable price to get ml2, libby dreads went to ml2 for no reason or increase in price, and all of our vehicles (dreads, baal preds, ravens, and raiders being the ones that come to mind) became harder to kill.

Librarians are still....40? points more than the same thing for a vanilla marine army.

The loss of wings for Libby dreads makes them a non-starter, and almost entirely pointless. I mean, what are GOOD powers for them now? Invis? Would need a drop pod to get him into combat now. <sigh> Randomness is bad.

The vehicles are harder to kill compared to 6th edition. These things were point costed for a 5th edition codex where vehicles were LEAGUES tougher to kill. Still by and large too expensive....other than Storm Ravens, which are going to get worse or more expensive in the new codex. Wave goodbye to AP1 Bloodstrike missiles.

Mephiston isnt better or worse, honestly. Just... different. Various mephistar lists will pop up, and im sure many of them will do well. Oh, and sanguinary priests of some type are definitely still good. Having furious charge and feel no pain is still better than not having it, and remains one of the key strengths of the book.

Again, lateral moves. Meph just lost the codex powers, which were the final nail in his coffin. The 6th edition nerf to him dropping to AP3 was a big hit, but at least he was still fast and S10....now that's gone. So we are left with a 250 points lvl 3 librarian with monstrous creature stats that can't join other units and doesn't have an invul save....sweet. Rolling biomancy can make him a terror....kinda...IF you get iron arm, and you aren't fighting 2+ save troops, or MCs, or dreads, or AP2 enemies, and you manage to cast your powers and they don't get nullified AND he actually makes it into combat....and and and....etc. PASS.

Sang priests were balanced for 5th edition, again. Furious charge used to give +1S and +1I, and the aura was a 4+ FnP save. Now with the loss of initiative and FnP dropping to 5+, their point's cost needs to be looked at again.

In closing... I still have no clue why everyone thinks sanguinary guard are bad. Fast moving accurate deep striking melta with strong close combat prowess and objective secured in artificer armor? Yeah. Real bad.

Awful....utterly awful.

First off, all of our melta is "accurate deep striking and fast moving" when deployed on assault squads. So nothing special there.
Second; "Strong close combat". They have power swords or axes, with marine stats. That's nothing to write home about.
Third; They are only objective secured if taken with Dante as an HQ, and he's one of the worst in the book, and possible the entire game.
Fourth; Artificier armor! WOOO! 40 points for T4 2+ save, no invul? WTF man...

They are awful in a world where you can get Space Marine honor guard, with the same stats and weapons AND artificer armor for 25 point per model. Jet packs are not worth 15 points each....see the death company arguments about that. I mean, they were poor in 5th edition when they were essentially AP2, and they were rocking initiative 5 on the charge with a 4+ FnP thanks the Sang Priest bubbles....and they are worse now.

At 28 points they'd be solid, at 30 points each, I'd say they are passable, at 40, they are bad and you should get terminators. (LC terminators are 40 points, get a 5+ invul, an extra attack in melee and reroll to wound).

Carnage... you keep leaving me with nothing to say!

Did you actually read the codex? Like... in english? You keep talking about how overcosted our stuff is. Vindicator is 20 points more than it is in the marine dex. And is FAST. Baal pred is 5 points more than a tri las pred in the marine dex. And is BETTER. Furious charge got worse, yeah. But fnp got better. Its worse vs small arms fire but better against the things we were afraid of anyways. Plasma, bladestorm, ion cannons, rending, power weapons, monsters, bale flamers, inferno cannons, etc. Ive already discussed Dante to death before. If you want me to numerically break down his cost again though, just say the word.

Libby dreads? Lost the ability to fly. Thats what pods are for. They gained so much more.

Worth noting, Iron Arm grants Smash now. So if Meph gets it, go punch 2+ saves all day.

But yeah, wait for a new codex.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Did you actually read the codex? Like... in english?

Erm, yes. Played for 16+ years, cleaned up local tournys, play 3-4 armies, read the internet hype-trains extensively....etc. You can ignore my credentials if you wish, but I do know what I'm talking about. Please remember though, that I talk about top end competitive gaming, not beer and pretzel casual level stuff. What works for you, or you have had success with, is largely dependent on your opponents, and doesn't accurately represent the army as a whole.

You keep talking about how overcosted our stuff is. Vindicator is 20 points more than it is in the marine dex. And is FAST.

20 points for fast is fair....but you are assuming that 125 for a vinidicator is good, and 20 more points makes it even better. Vindicators are not good. Basically marine armies shelved them for thunderfires and centurions, maybe storm ravens as well. The predator chassis is largely not great anymore for what we are paying.

Baal pred is 5 points more than a tri las pred in the marine dex. And is BETTER.

God.....better at WHAT. Tri-las is a dedicated anti-medium to heavy vehicle platform (and isn't great at it) and the Baal is an anti-infantry platform. Inferno cannon is hilariously short ranged, as are the heavy flamer sponsons, so that leaves most "effective" Baals with assault cannon and heavy bolters. You don't want to be spending points on anti-light-infantry in a world where the only thing your troops are reasonably effective against is light to medium infantry.

Furious charge got worse, yeah. But fnp got better. Its worse vs small arms fire but better against the things we were afraid of anyways. Plasma, bladestorm, ion cannons, rending, power weapons, monsters, bale flamers, inferno cannons, etc.

The FnP change was a side grade at best. Comes to the question....did you lose more marines to failed armor saves or S7 AP2 as to whether or not it was a straight up nerf. Personally, I tried not to expose my marines to things that ignore their main selling point.....power armor.

Ive already discussed Dante to death before. If you want me to numerically break down his cost again though, just say the word.

A link to your "break down" would be fine....but he's not good, and there's no math that will prove that, because it's patently false.

Libby dreads? Lost the ability to fly. Thats what pods are for. They gained so much more.

I don't even know what to say to this. Furiouso libbys have never been good, and now you can glance them to death and they lost the BA powers. Rolling random powers from the rulebook is random as hell, and a good portion of them don't even help him. A pod is basically REQUIRED now, whereas before you at least had a choice of just "winging it" across the board and assisting defensively with shield in your opponent's turn. Less choice, more random.

Just like to point out:
Tri las C:SM pred is 140pts. Tri las BA pred is 180pts
180 - 140 =/= 5.
Now a Baal pred is 145pts which IS 5 pts more expensive.
Now are you telling me you would rather have a devestator squad with 2 heavy bolters and an assault cannon over a devestator squad with 3 lascannons? Because GW don't cost hb the same price as lascannons so that's good news for you!

You have picked Baals which are one of our better units yet still (accidentally it would seem) demonstrated how over costed they are, and also doing the same with one of our other better units.
Furious charge and 5+ fnp was barely worth it for 75pts, definitely not on squads with less than 10models.

Dante is utter garbage! What are you going to do? Add up his wargear? If I gave a grot a jump-pack, artificier armour, iron halo and power axe, it would come to over 100pts... doesn't make the grot worth the points!

TL assault cannon vs TL lascannon math has been worked out by people far smarter than me. The asscan is better vs anything not av14, and is also strong against most forms of infantry. The heavy bolters are good at tackling light vehicles and, again, most forms of infantry. We pay 145 points for a fast vehicle that can threaten almost every vehicle in the game and is a solid anti infantry platform.

Random is just the new name of the game, honestly. You have to accept that.

Oh, and not counting our discount, our bolterbacks are the same price and las plas razorbacks are 15 points more than the marine dex. And, you guessed it, fast

Ill go find my breakdown of Dante when im not posting from my phone =p

Edit: Avoiding things that deny armor when playing a jumper army is a given, but sometimes it just happens. I lost more men to plasma than i ever did to small arms, and now at least we get a save against it.

Yes I agree that a tl-ac vs a tl-lc is better. I have provided the maths for this before. However a tl ac shooting at a mech target means you have just wasted your hbs, a tl las however wants to shoot at the same thing as its other lascannons.

Tl las + 2 las > tl ac.
1 tl ac is not a serious threat to most vehicles in the game. Especially not a 145pt threat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a tl las can sit behind cover all day popping off its shots. A tl ac cannot. A tl ac means you risk exposing your side armour. Not a big deal on a raven where you will have encountered the ac vs las debate before, but a massive deal on a grounded side armour of av11 vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know where the random quote came from, but the best players try and negate randomness as much as they can.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Just like to point out:
Tri las C:SM pred is 140pts. Tri las BA pred is 180pts
180 - 140 =/= 5.
Now a Baal pred is 145pts which IS 5 pts more expensive.
Now are you telling me you would rather have a devestator squad with 2 heavy bolters and an assault cannon over a devestator squad with 3 lascannons? Because GW don't cost hb the same price as lascannons so that's good news for you!

You have picked Baals which are one of our better units yet still (accidentally it would seem) demonstrated how over costed they are, and also doing the same with one of our other better units.
Furious charge and 5+ fnp was barely worth it for 75pts, definitely not on squads with less than 10models.

Dante is utter garbage! What are you going to do? Add up his wargear? If I gave a grot a jump-pack, artificier armour, iron halo and power axe, it would come to over 100pts... doesn't make the grot worth the points!

I was talking about baal preds to begin with. No one can argue that our regular preds are overcosted, lol.

And to add Dantes total cost up, his statline is about 130, power axe is 15, death mast is 5, jump pack is 15, as is infernus pistol, and artificer armor is 20. This brings his cost, without any rules,to 200, meaning his hit and run, precision deep strike, enemy IC nerfing, and force org swap are all contained in the last 25 points. Seems pretty efficient to me.

Also, we pay 145 for a vehicle that threatens everything in the game, vs 140 for one thats not fast and only shoots tanks.

1 assault cannon and 2 hbs does not threaten av12 or above. An ac will get less than 1 hp knocked off an opponent on average. 145pts is not a good investment when playing meq as it will take an age to make its points. There are cheaper and far better options in most other dexes when playing geq (tfc, lobbas, wyverns etc). It is only 4+ models which truely fear a baal pred with ac and hbs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree they are exceptional againat av10 however.

 th3maninblak wrote:

I was talking about baal preds to begin with. No one can argue that our regular preds are overcosted, lol.

The triple las is hilariously over costed, I'll agree, but the AC/LC pred isn't that bad actually. I think it runs 140-145 points and can move and fire all 3 weapons. Makes a solid light to medium anti-tank platform.....less so now then it was in 5th edition of course, but still solid. Although I'd personally look into FW stuff if you want vehicles, the Sicarian, Mortis Contemptors and whatnot are generally better buys than the BA vehicles sadly.

And to add Dantes total cost up, his statline is about 130, power axe is 15, death mast is 5, jump pack is 15, as is infernus pistol, and artificer armor is 20. This brings his cost, without any rules,to 200, meaning his hit and run, precision deep strike, enemy IC nerfing, and force org swap are all contained in the last 25 points. Seems pretty efficient to me.

That's...not how it works, not at all. That's like doing this for Mephiston;

Librarian, + 25 for extra level, +25 for extra psy level = 150
15 for plasma pistol
20 for artificier armor
+15 for transfixing gaze = 200

You only pay 50 points for +2WS, +1BS, +2S, +2T, +3W, +3I, +2A. That's Amazing! Erm, no. There's dimishing returns on stacking wargear on characters, and each piece cannot be afforded full price to arrive at a balanced cost. Also, some changes stack exponentially, like the 5 wounds and T6 on meph....that's worth a CRAP LOAD more than the WS, BS, initiative and attacks.

Dante's main problems are a lack of eternal warrior, swinging at I1, and his FoC shift being just awful. If he were ~175-180, or 190-200 and swings at initiative, and Sang guard were 28-30 each, I'd say he was passable....not so much right now.

Also, we pay 145 for a vehicle that threatens everything in the game, vs 140 for one thats not fast and only shoots tanks.

The triple las pred is also solid against monstrous creatures, heavy infantry and the like. The Baal isn't really very effective against anything more than AV10 vehicles wise, and isn't stunning against MCs or 3+ or better save troops. Assuming no cover, the triple las stacks up pretty much equally well against anything in 3+ armor, and significantly better against 2+. Plus the whole instant death side of things being S9 and whatnot. Still, it's not a great comparison. Of course the Baal has outflank and fast to HOPEFULLY get to side armor to offset it's minor firepower disadvantage.

The Baal's greatest advantage, IMO, is the fact it's a fast attack choice, so you can squeeze in an extra predator chassis and still have all your heavy support to work with.... that said, heavy support isn't amazing for BA, and better choices exist elsewhere outside the BA book IMO. Still, if you were to play a BA/Vanilla hybrid army, I think I would try to squeeze in a Baal pred or 2....might be interesting to think about.

Don't forget that if you're playing Eternal War missions, Fast Attack and Heavy Support options bring extra liabilities with them that packing in more Troops and Elites don't. I've been underwhelmed with Baals in 6th and 7th, and really the only Fast Attack I've been truly happy with was a squad of multimeltas attack bikes so cutting back on them hasn't stung much.

Beyond that, it's combat squadded Tacticals and Assaults, with a minimal Death Company to let me bring one DC blender dread, back up by Fragnoughts in pods and Stormravens. The quad melta honor guard just seems overpriced for what it is so I tend to skip it.

Oh, and I'm loving the Reclusiarch. I really hope GDubs doesn't take those away from us in the next codex.

By the way, making Lemartes your warlord is both terrible and hilarious.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Don't forget that if you're playing Eternal War missions, Fast Attack and Heavy Support options bring extra liabilities with them that packing in more Troops and Elites don't. I've been underwhelmed with Baals in 6th and 7th, and really the only Fast Attack I've been truly happy with was a squad of multimeltas attack bikes so cutting back on them hasn't stung much.

Beyond that, it's combat squadded Tacticals and Assaults, with a minimal Death Company to let me bring one DC blender dread, back up by Fragnoughts in pods and Stormravens. The quad melta honor guard just seems overpriced for what it is so I tend to skip it.

Oh, and I'm loving the Reclusiarch. I really hope GDubs doesn't take those away from us in the next codex.

By the way, making Lemartes your warlord is both terrible and hilarious.

In my experience the baal preds have been great against armor 10-11, and good enough against 12-13. They average somewhere between 2-4 wounds a turn vs meqs, significantly more against guard, dire avengers, fire warriors, etc. I still believe theyre the best tank in our dex, and i would still take them if i could in a vanilla marine army. Fast av13 is pretty baller.

Maybe its just my playstyle or local meta, but Dantes tactical flexibility and plethora of rules have never let me down. And taking him should never mean youre taking a full sang guard army. 1 squad to use as a hammer unit and solid objective taker is definitely worthwhile though, at 2k and above. I can posts some lists if you like.

And FINALLY another reclusiarch fan!!! I love that guy.

Speaking of honour guard, a squad with 3x melta, jump packs, and a fist comes out to 220 points. Ive been having some luck with it. At first glance it seems too pricey, but we do get a free priest with it.

I'm not saying Dante is a pimp or anything, but no one ever seems to mention he has Hit and Run (and Init 6 when making the check). Hit and Run is the truth...

As for the Baal Preds. I think they suffer from being pointed out TOO perfectly. 145 or 150 (with dozer blade) doesn't feel like a bargain at all, but as a FA 13 FAST tank that can target a variety of units, it's cost is just about right. You'll never feel good about spending the points...but it can do some serious work over the course of a game.

People mention the Mephy Corbulo star a lot, but no one ever seems to mention it's downfall: challenges.

Any unit that has a character with a power fist/claw, as well as one other model, possibly a character himself, with another fist/claw, will most likely knock out the dynamic duo. A good example being a mob of boys, with a PK nob, and a PK warboss that joined them. All of which costs less than the duo, unless its a really big mob of boys. And whichever guy is sitting safe in the challenge is going to be taking all the spillover wounds, as well.

Even just having a throwaway sergeant managing to get one of them out of the combat proper means that either you can't abuse mephy's toughness and corb's fnp at the same time.

This problem does get alleviated somewhat if you take on the full allies included death Star, and have say, Celestine take challenges.

niv-mizzet wrote:
People mention the Mephy Corbulo star a lot, but no one ever seems to mention it's downfall: challenges.

Any unit that has a character with a power fist/claw, as well as one other model, possibly a character himself, with another fist/claw, will most likely knock out the dynamic duo. A good example being a mob of boys, with a PK nob, and a PK warboss that joined them. All of which costs less than the duo, unless its a really big mob of boys. And whichever guy is sitting safe in the challenge is going to be taking all the spillover wounds, as well.

Even just having a throwaway sergeant managing to get one of them out of the combat proper means that either you can't abuse mephy's toughness and corb's fnp at the same time.

This problem does get alleviated somewhat if you take on the full allies included death Star, and have say, Celestine take challenges.

Wounds carry over to the squad from challenges in 7th. So a throwaway sergeant won't work. 2 PK in the same squad will leave Corbs vulnerable, but thats why when I originally proposed the meph star I also included an allied chapter master on a bike and an inquisitor. Thats a proper meph star!

Poly Ranger wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
People mention the Mephy Corbulo star a lot, but no one ever seems to mention it's downfall: challenges.

Any unit that has a character with a power fist/claw, as well as one other model, possibly a character himself, with another fist/claw, will most likely knock out the dynamic duo. A good example being a mob of boys, with a PK nob, and a PK warboss that joined them. All of which costs less than the duo, unless its a really big mob of boys. And whichever guy is sitting safe in the challenge is going to be taking all the spillover wounds, as well.

Even just having a throwaway sergeant managing to get one of them out of the combat proper means that either you can't abuse mephy's toughness and corb's fnp at the same time.

This problem does get alleviated somewhat if you take on the full allies included death Star, and have say, Celestine take challenges.

Wounds carry over to the squad from challenges in 7th. So a throwaway sergeant won't work. 2 PK in the same squad will leave Corbs vulnerable, but thats why when I originally proposed the meph star I also included an allied chapter master on a bike and an inquisitor. Thats a proper meph star!

Yeah I'm aware they carry over. I even mentioned it in my post. The intent of the throwaway sergeant in that situation is not to block the attacks from one or the other character, it's to split them up so that Corbulo can't abuse toughness six or iron arms toughness nine, Mephiston can't abuse 2+ feel no pain corb tanking

Carnage is posting most of the right stuff in this thread so far.

The problem with BA is that their troops are awful. I find it hard to see beyond obsec Land Raiders at the core of the armour now, and that's not that great. Your sinking a ton of points into something that doesn't have a great offensive output, and can be one shotted by a meltagun.

I wouldn't call the awful troops "the problem". It's definitely one of the problems, but it's combined with overpaying for almost everything, and a wretched selection of HQ choices.

I still enjoy playing mine, but I know that every game is playing with one arm tied behind my back unless I'm fighting another Blood Angel army.