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Since jink has been reduced from a solid 5+ for movement to a 4+ at the cost of turning all your shooting into snapshots in 7th edition, I feel like Shuriken Cannon upgrades on Jetbikes, Wave Serpents, Falcons etc. are just not worth it anymore.

Jetbikes always were last minute objective grabbers, but 6th edition gave me a nice chance to mount some BS4 (thx, new codex Eldar) S6 bladestorm (again, thx new codex Eldar) capability on the already cheaper and more survivable Jetbikes compared to every Eldar codex before that.

7th's jink mechanics have put a stop to that, and twin-linked Shuriken Catapults (also bladestorm) seem fine enough to me right now, even if they are terribly short ranged.

What do you think?

Shuiken cannon. All day every day.
Your still gonna get a large amount of people to both sides. They can debate out the math hammer of it and why it would/nt work in this or that scenario, but in the end its always the same. Some say yes, others say no.

I think it really depends on what is doing the shooting.
Toughness 4 and 3+ armor is still good, and you can afford to lose the guys who don't have the cannon(s).

If money was no object, I would run a few units of 9 bikes with 3 cannons, for 183 points.
Good mobility, good fire power, decent durability. It's like having a tactical marine that trades melee for mobility; and that's a huge win in 7th edition.

-Matt

There is no right or wrong answer. Cannons are a good upgrade for the points, but going stock with TL catapults is not bad either. It really depends on your playstyle and personal preference.

My army has 5 Shuriken Cannons (3 on Serpents, two on Bikes) and I can't honestly think of what I'd spend those 50 points on that would be better served. I could go up to 10 Warp Spiders from 8 or maybe add Ghostwalk Matrices to the tanks, but that's really about it.

I am remiss to ever drop cannons. Even snap shotting the thing with a scatter laser that should be a single hit and wound on most infantry maybe a rend. Over the coarse of a 6 turn game that should be 2 dead space marines per cannon. Having 3 on 3 serpents and 4 on 4 jet bike units I spend 60 points per game on them generally speaking and can say they have never not paid for themselves

Turn 1: Turbo over opponent's vehicle.
Turn 2+: Shoot vehicles in the back with Shuriken Cannons.

"They'll just be killed" is not a valid criticism. If they were killed, something else isn't. Nothing is indestructible.

To me, whether you can or should jink and the pros-cons are just WAY too situational..
In 7th it's just easier if I build the basics leave the canons off, then have a look at where I'm goin to be suit the army.. If it can outrage my oponent great.. Take them.. If not and I need to be agile and get up close at some stage ... Won't need them..

To me it's less about str/ jink and more about what range I'll sit at

For a scatter-laser Wave Serpent, mount a cannon. It's all snap-shots after Jink, but twin-link helps everywhere.
Anything else, catapults. Save the points.

 Skinnereal wrote:
For a scatter-laser Wave Serpent, mount a cannon. It's all snap-shots after Jink, but twin-link helps everywhere.
Anything else, catapults. Save the points.

This is what I subscribe to as well. With the exception of 6+ WRJ where they have enough survivability to lose a few guys and still contribute from 24" away.

I never took it to begin with. You were rarely going to be both in range and have moved little enough to fire all three guns at BS anyway, so never wasted the points. And I never missed it either.

For my Wave Serpents it depends on points in the list, but I always take Holofields, Scatter Laser, and Ghostwalk Matrix. If there is points left at the end of the list building process, then I start to sprinkle cannons on.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I never took it to begin with. You were rarely going to be both in range and have moved little enough to fire all three guns at BS anyway, so never wasted the points. And I never missed it either.

You must play very differently to never be within 36" of something that is hurt by S6 psudo-rending.
I would say the opposite. Always take them, because you're less likely to want to end within 12".

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I never took it to begin with. You were rarely going to be both in range and have moved little enough to fire all three guns at BS anyway, so never wasted the points. And I never missed it either.

You must play very differently to never be within 36" of something that is hurt by S6 psudo-rending.
I would say the opposite. Always take them, because you're less likely to want to end within 12".

The Shuriken Cannon is only 24" range.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I never took it to begin with. You were rarely going to be both in range and have moved little enough to fire all three guns at BS anyway, so never wasted the points. And I never missed it either.

You must play very differently to never be within 36" of something that is hurt by S6 psudo-rending.
I would say the opposite. Always take them, because you're less likely to want to end within 12".

Considering that it only has 24" range, yeah, I must play very differently.

I believe he meant 12" move and 24" range of the weapon. Yes, you snapshot, but my Serpent cannons always pay their 10 points back, be it by killing that lone marine or putting the last hull point on that Storm Talon.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
There is no right or wrong answer. Cannons are a good upgrade for the points, but going stock with TL catapults is not bad either. It really depends on your playstyle and personal preference.

The right answer is: If you have extra points and nothing to take, take a cannon. If you have cannons, and need 10 extra points for something, drop the cannon. Order of removal imo, is wave serpents first, then jetbikes due to already limited shooting capabilities on the waveserpent platform.

Shoudnt it be opposite?

I.E. Shuriken Cannons on the Wave Serpent are more worth it than on Jetbikes? Because most people take TL-Scatters on the WS and a single hit is enough to make the Shield and the Shuriken Cannon TL as well, which helps a lot when snapfiring.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Shoudnt it be opposite?

I.E. Shuriken Cannons on the Wave Serpent are more worth it than on Jetbikes? Because most people take TL-Scatters on the WS and a single hit is enough to make the Shield and the Shuriken Cannon TL as well, which helps a lot when snapfiring.

Moving 12 inches means you are snap firing one gun. Only 2 at full bs I believe. Plus on the bikes if they his well enough they should pop out, shoot and go back to not reachable or in line of sight

Well, my Serpents never go out without tl scatter laser, underslung shuricannon, and holofield.
This equipment is really a bargain.

Add in GWM to that mix.

 Araenion wrote:
Add in GWM to that mix.

The Matrix is, sadly, usually one of the last things that I cut out of an army (or, alternately, is something I only put in if I need to spend 10-30 points). I love it, but it's something that is so rarely useful for me. That might be a result of my local events using more linear terrain than area terrain, however.

Now, it always goes on my Nightspinner/Fire Prism, that's for sure.

 Araenion wrote:
I believe he meant 12" move and 24" range of the weapon. Yes, you snapshot, but my Serpent cannons always pay their 10 points back, be it by killing that lone marine or putting the last hull point on that Storm Talon.

Sorry, I was talking about jet bikes. 12" move, and 24" of range is plenty. Having 6 bullet sponges is plenty on a 3+ unit that can choose at any time to take a 4+ cover.
I guess the thread should be split between jetbikes and vehicles. Moving jet bikes 48" turn 1 lets you set up shots just about anywhere you want.

-Matt

I think the question to ask is do my bikes hide out of los for most of the game?

If the answer is yes buy a cannon. For 10 points the squad can do something by moving out of cover, take a shot, and assault move back out of los.

Jink had very little to do with my motivation to take cannons, the gun is just good. Most times is also cheap enough to be easy to add. Generally, it's mounted on things where you are not sacrificing anything else to shoot it, and it tends to add range and strength to a weapon slot. Being 3 shots, you aren't losing much by shooting vehicles with it, and pseudo rending makes it useful even against heavy troops.

Again, I'd say every time on jet bikes. Having 3 cannons on a jet bike squad is like having 2 assault cannons in a tac squad.

-Matt