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 jonolikespie wrote:
Are GW the dumbed down version in that scenario?


You make some good points and GW don't have the buyback problem that sank TSR but they do have a huge chain of international stores. I think the cost of those stores will drag them under in the next couple of years. It would be easy to get rid of them and focus on direct and FLGS sales but this has been a problem for a while now and GW just keep doubleing down and opening more stores.

GW should have gotten rid of their own stores and embraced FLGS long ago. Instead they bully local game shops to push their own shops, but with the switch to one-man stores they can't even support them properly.

WayneTheGame wrote:
GW should have gotten rid of their own stores and embraced FLGS long ago. Instead they bully local game shops to push their own shops, but with the switch to one-man stores they can't even support them properly.

In the mid 90s a major toy distributor actually carried GW's stuff. I remember seeing it pop up all over the place in toy stores, billiard/darts/game stores, comic shops and everywhere that used that distributor. Then GW decided they'd deal with trade customers directly and have been jerking them around ever since

I really think GW has drunk their own koolaid and spent the last decade enforcing their yes-men corporate culture of attitude over skills to the point where they actually believe their products and way of doing business is flawless. I really do hope they get a rude awakening sooner rather than later and that their going all-in on their single person retail stores blows up in their faces. My only worry is that I'm beginning to think that the way they hold their customers in contempt as people who will just buy whatever they're told may be more accurate than I'd like.

Nothing lasts forever, the other games will continue to grow and GW will shrink. One man stores are terrible because there's no community there, how am I supposed to meet anyone to play games with if there's nowhere to hang out?!
I could go to a FLGS sure but then there's a problem, all the other, cheaper games there alluring me!
They have big fanbases too so...what makes GW so special then?
If they are all on the same level at a FLGS, what's GW's edge? Used to be their stores but they are pretty much scrapping those, so what are you left with?

Now they are following "Weismen" model for WIZKIDS. They want to be bought. Starter sets in all Targets/Walmarts coming soon.:(

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
Now they are following "Weismen" model for WIZKIDS. They want to be bought. Starter sets in all Targets/Walmarts coming soon.:(

So? Having 40k being sold in mainstream stores isn't a bad thing.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
So? Having 40k being sold in mainstream stores isn't a bad thing.

This. In fact, GW's refusal to put their games into mainstream stores is incredible stupidity.

You could buy GW kits in Hobby Craft a year or two ago. I haven't been in lately. They don't sell in Toys R Us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are problems with putting GW into mainstream toy shops.

The GW offering combines rules, modelling and fluff. This makes it difficult to understand without explanation and demonstration.

The rules now are very long and complicated. The models and background do not relate to any clear real world frame of reference. For example, D Day and Great War stuff is booming at the moment, because the news is full of the 70th and 100th anniversaries. 40K has the undead God Emperor on his Golden Throne WTF?!?!?

Fantasy ought to be more recognisable because people can relate to LotR and Game of Thrones, yet The Hobbit has been a flop.

A simple introductory starter set would help. The starter set for 40K includes the entire 200+ page rulebook printed in specially small and hard to read type.

 frozenwastes wrote:

In the mid 90s a major toy distributor actually carried GW's stuff. I remember seeing it pop up all over the place in toy stores, billiard/darts/game stores, comic shops and everywhere that used that distributor. Then GW decided they'd deal with trade customers directly and have been jerking them around ever since

In the late 90's you could actually buy GW stuff in HMV, which at the time were a huge high street entertainment company. I also bought my very first GW game (Space Crusade) from an Argos catalogue. Basically at one time GW's products were available from mainstream retail outlets.

A properly done, self contained starter set designed specifically to be sold in toy stores then direct people to GW stores would get around all of those problems and be a massive boost for GWs recruitment numbers.

Or hell, just license out a magazine again, that worked wonders for them.

Yeah but GW has this idea they're like the greatest thing ever and if you just build a store, people will go to it and buy a lot, regardless of things like community, player base, or anything.
This internet thing is a fad and will soon go away (in their mind I can only imagine)...

How GWs business plan came about. GW will pull an(other) EA next and say any resistance to their products is just because they "innovated too much."

A note on sales - they were enjoined from holding ANY sales at all in the UK back in the late 90s, as they (by that point) were essentially the monopoly producer and supplier of tabletop games in the UK. They could, through sales, essentially undercut everyone, putting them out of business.

They can only "discount" if it is a new SKU, hence why box sets, battleforces are around. Except these cost money to produce and more importantly space within stores

Hence why the 1 click bundles are there - convenience only.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
You know what I think GW should try that most businesses do, sales!
People love sales, I may not need a box of tyranid warriors but if the price is right, hey they may come in handy!

Back when I started in the mid 90's, GW DID have sales (at least local ones if not global ones). The first army I bought, Lizardmen, was mostly bought off the back of sales. The 3rd army I bought was Tyranids, again bought mostly off the back of sales.

I think GW are silly for not exploiting sales. I'm pretty sure a large part of the reason Stormclaw is so popular is because the huge savings. Hell, part of the reason I bought Space Hulk back in the day was because I realised how much cheaper it was than buying the Terminators and Stealers separately.

Gw is doomed! 3 stores closed out from 30 miles from me. No more gamng for me!

 Filch wrote:
Gw is doomed! 3 stores closed out from 30 miles from me. No more gamng for me!

Can't you play at home or at a club?


I must admit that I've never really understood why stores are considered so important. And, by extension, why Games Workshop tries to claim that their premium prices are important to support stores and that their stores are important for the hobby. I mean: I've never had a Games Workshop store anywhere near me and all my gaming have been at home or at a club. No store needed for that.

 Palindrome wrote:
In the late 90's you could actually buy GW stuff in HMV, which at the time were a huge high street entertainment company. I also bought my very first GW game (Space Crusade) from an Argos catalogue. Basically at one time GW's products were available from mainstream retail outlets.

It's really strange when a business is so hungry for margin that they'll pull out of all sales channels but the ones they directly control rather than figure out how to best use all the channels available to them.

If anyone should be able to make tons of money even with distributors and retailers taking a cut, it's GW. They are geared for mass production in a way that few of their competitors could even hope to be. And yet they can't seem to get margins they are happy with and would rather abandon markets entirely rather than let someone else retail the product how they want.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Back when I started in the mid 90's, GW DID have sales (at least local ones if not global ones). The first army I bought, Lizardmen, was mostly bought off the back of sales. The 3rd army I bought was Tyranids, again bought mostly off the back of sales.

I think GW are silly for not exploiting sales. I'm pretty sure a large part of the reason Stormclaw is so popular is because the huge savings. Hell, part of the reason I bought Space Hulk back in the day was because I realised how much cheaper it was than buying the Terminators and Stealers separately.

Same where I played in the late 90s. The GW store would have a sale every year on the same weekend. No gaming for the weekend and days leading up to it because the store would be full of product. A line would start forming a hour a head of time and the store would be packed all day with people buying stuff. I see no reason why this amount of volume and sales at the store wouldn't make up for the discount.

I can buy at 20% off retail via online discounter which means GW gets maybe 60% of MSRP with say 10% margin

OR for the same price

I can buy at 20% off retail at the GW store because they are having a sale which means GW gets 80% of MSRP with say 30% margin

Which gets the company more money?

Barfolomew wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Back when I started in the mid 90's, GW DID have sales (at least local ones if not global ones). The first army I bought, Lizardmen, was mostly bought off the back of sales. The 3rd army I bought was Tyranids, again bought mostly off the back of sales.

I think GW are silly for not exploiting sales. I'm pretty sure a large part of the reason Stormclaw is so popular is because the huge savings. Hell, part of the reason I bought Space Hulk back in the day was because I realised how much cheaper it was than buying the Terminators and Stealers separately.

Same where I played in the late 90s. The GW store would have a sale every year on the same weekend. No gaming for the weekend and days leading up to it because the store would be full of product. A line would start forming a hour a head of time and the store would be packed all day with people buying stuff. I see no reason why this amount of volume and sales at the store wouldn't make up for the discount.

I can buy at 20% off retail via online discounter which means GW gets maybe 60% of MSRP with say 10% margin

OR for the same price

I can buy at 20% off retail at the GW store because they are having a sale which means GW gets 80% of MSRP with say 30% margin

Which gets the company more money?

What about the rest of the year when that sales weekend isn't on? If I was in the market for a GW army, I'd just wait for the next sale to appear.

Bartholomew - again, theyre not allowed to do sales. AS in, the UK gov't specifically stopped them from having them. They then have that approach be consistent worldwide, presumably to avoid either similar action, or being to seen to not hold the UK in sufficient regard (appearance can count for a lot)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Bartholomew - again, theyre not allowed to do sales. AS in, the UK gov't specifically stopped them from having them. They then have that approach be consistent worldwide, presumably to avoid either similar action, or being to seen to not hold the UK in sufficient regard (appearance can count for a lot)

Can you explain this? Not being from the UK I don't quite understand how the government can tell you that you aren't allowed to have sales on your own product. Something related to competition?

I'd be surprised if UK law forbids it; plenty of companies, like Mulberry, have sales in their own stores of items that also sell thru other retailers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Bartholomew - again, theyre not allowed to do sales. AS in, the UK gov't specifically stopped them from having them.

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to need a citation for this affirmation...

WayneTheGame wrote:
Isn't Kirby also the majority shareholder though? So could the other investors just kick him out like that?

To answer your question, no he is not. Kirby is a large shareholder, yes, but not majority.

Just to clarify, owning a majority of a company is having 50.1% of more of controlling interest (not necessarily in shares but in decision making). Kirby does not have that power.

Kirby currently holds about 7% of the shares in GW. Which means if another 50.1% of shareholders got fed up with him and voted him to be booted, he would be gone no matter what he did.

The thing is that for all our discontent at Kirby he has made millions of ££ for the shareholders.

I don't see any apparent reason why half the shareholders would suddenly decide to can him.

(Unless the end of year report is a disaster. Even then, GW have bad reports before and survived.)

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The thing is that for all our discontent at Kirby he has made millions of ££ for the shareholders.

I don't see any apparent reason why half the shareholders would suddenly decide to can him.

(Unless the end of year report is a disaster. Even then, GW have bad reports before and survived.)

No one is going to can him. The company is too small and under the radar of a lot of other companies. Rarely are niche company CEOs ousted, no matter how bad things get.

If GW starts to tank, and tank bad, all shareholders will do is sell their shares and buy shares in another company that isn't having so many problems. Why go through the hassle of forcing a company to be fixed when you can just sell and buy into a company that isn't all fethed up? So much easier on the shareholders.

 Yonan wrote:
How GWs business plan came about. GW will pull an(other) EA next and say any resistance to their products is just because they "innovated too much."

No... just... please don't... oh... why'd you have to bring that up?

f2k wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Gw is doomed! 3 stores closed out from 30 miles from me. No more gamng for me!

Can't you play at home or at a club?


I must admit that I've never really understood why stores are considered so important. And, by extension, why Games Workshop tries to claim that their premium prices are important to support stores and that their stores are important for the hobby. I mean: I've never had a Games Workshop store anywhere near me and all my gaming have been at home or at a club. No store needed for that.

Friends i had quit. They sold their army and moved on with their lives. I now must make the life transition, but i dont want to.

 Filch wrote:

f2k wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Gw is doomed! 3 stores closed out from 30 miles from me. No more gamng for me!

Can't you play at home or at a club?


I must admit that I've never really understood why stores are considered so important. And, by extension, why Games Workshop tries to claim that their premium prices are important to support stores and that their stores are important for the hobby. I mean: I've never had a Games Workshop store anywhere near me and all my gaming have been at home or at a club. No store needed for that.

Friends i had quit. They sold their army and moved on with their lives. I now must make the life transition, but i dont want to.

Yeah...

See, that's the issue that Games Workshop has right now.

They've had dips before, but back then they still had a viable customer base to back them up. Now however, many local communities seem to have collapsed, leaving just one or two players. And not being able to get a game, they'll dump their stuff on Ebay and that's the end of Games Workshop in that area.

It's sad really. Once upon a time, all stores and all clubs were filled with Games Workshop fanboyz. Fantasy or 40K. Necromunda or Blood Bowl. It didn't matter - you could always get a game. But now...


Best you can hope for, I'm afraid, is that you can talk you friends into trying another game like Infinity or Malifaux, or any of the other games that's sprung up over the last few years.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
What about the rest of the year when that sales weekend isn't on? If I was in the market for a GW army, I'd just wait for the next sale to appear.

Couple of points

1) You are making the false assumption that the only place that the army can be purchased is via GW. This is means that GW has no incentive to run a sale because they have a captive audience who can only acquire product via GW at full price.

2) You are under estimating the power of "I want it now". I know many, many players who impulse buy items at full price because they have to have it.

3) GW is not the only place to purchase the army. You can buy the vast majority of it from any number of online retailers at a steady 20% discount, year round.

As it is now, GW direct (internet or shop) is the LAST place I would buy an army from. Why would I pay 20% more for the same product? Now if GW did have a sale of 20%+, bundle or not, I may consider purchasing direct from them. GW can the little money from me they get for going through a distributor all the time or they can have a bit more of my money by having sales.

Edit:

The reason the Sanctus Reach: Stormclaw set is selling at any appreciable volume is because it contains $225 worth of product and costs $125, not including the rulebook. That is a 45% discount. If I played Orks or Space Wolves and new someone playing the other, I would consider splitting it with them because it has value.

PhantomViper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Bartholomew - again, theyre not allowed to do sales. AS in, the UK gov't specifically stopped them from having them.

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to need a citation for this affirmation...

I'm going to have to echo this, firstly because I can't find any evidence for myself, and secondly because it sounds hugely implausible. The only Governmental organisation I can envisage having the power, remit and interest to do this would be the MMC, and I really don't think GW are a big enough part of the toy market (which is what they'd look at, not 'wargaming' which isn't really a defined sector so much as a self generated label) to warrant that action.

Sounds and smells like Redshirt bs spun to some poor unsuspecting kid that has inexplicably become part of Internet lore to me, but I'd be very interested to be proven wrong.

Especially in light of the fact that I bought stuff from GW shops in the 90s at a discount from RRP.