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Looking at everything I have seen I like most of wht I an seeing.

The Stormwolf: Th looks don't me, I use a Terminator 2 Hunter Killer Flyer as a proxy for 90% of my flyers anyways [th other 10% is a Toothless for my Helrake]. It is nice to et a Space Wolf Specific Flyer not just a copy/paste Marined Flyer.

Grey Hunters: Mixed Feelings. The more options for for more Plasma sound great along with the optinal Wolf Guard looks to be a good way to handle it. The buy/tade for your Chainsword...buy a Chainsword, YAY it will stop some of the complaning...sorry whinning about the extra CCW. Trading for the Chainsword I don't like, but thas s a WYSIWYG issue.

Blood Claws: Like what I have seen so far, though the 5-20 size means nw models.

Bjorn: I like the Idea of him become a Lord of War, I just hope he can now take a Drop Pod.

Logan: Lord of War??? Well I can work with that.

The rest I am going to take with a gain of salt.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The LR and Rhino are 2 completely different roles, one is a large, expensive, heavily armed assault transport vehicle, the other is a small, cheaper, lightly armed non-assault transport.

The Predator is almost as heavily armoured as the Land Rider on the front. Nothing prevents SM from slapping a Vindicator shield on a Rhino and driving it up the enemy's face.

Land Raider is still a hugely different vehicle. A Predator is almost as heavily armoured as a Land Raider... but sacrifices transport capacity. You could slap a Vindicator shield on a Rhino, but it still doesn't have 14 AV all round and a front assault ramp. The Land Raider is unique compared to the Rhino and Rhino chassis variants.

A better 40k analogy would be the Chimera and Taurox. 2 vehicles that fill pretty much the same role but aren't based off the same core design. Of course people also bitch that the Taurox is unnecessary, lol. A better real world example would be the Hurricane and Spitfire, two unique vehicles that fill basically the same battlefield role.

With the way they treated Ghaz it's looking like each army will just arbitrarily have their most Iconic characters moved to the LoW slot without much of a boost.

That's really disappointing as it would have been a great opportunity to mirror what their FW peers (betters?) did with the Primarchs in 30K

It comes off feeling like an artificial way to break down player resistance to LoWs to me.

 easysauce wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nonsense. The idea that these two things can't co-exist is stupid.

But why should they exist? This is like GW inventing a new "Rhino" kit that works just like a Rhino, except it has a bunch of wolf icons glued everywhere, some of the detail bits are rearranged, and the storm bolter is twin-linked.

what, you mean like a razor back?

or one of the upteen variations on the lemen russ chassis?

or chimera chassis?

or the eldar wave serpant chassis?

Again with the bad comparisons. All of those are variants of the same chassis, not a unique vehicles that fills the same role as another vehicle.

You mean like raiders and venoms?

I don't think it's fair to compare a fairly large cumbersome resin thing to a plastic model that's lighter and smaller. I wouldn't want to carry that ceastus thing anywhere.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again: Context.

The idea is they like firm, proven technologies.

Thus, they decide to create their own special snowflake dropship/gunship and their own special snowflake super-cannon. Meanwhile teleportation technology, which has been used by almost every Astartes for 11 millenia, is "unproven" technology.

Razorbacks are explicitly noted within their descriptions as being a new and relatively unproven technology, yet they eagerly use those as well. I don't think the reliability of the technology has anything to do with it. What I think is that they simply don't like teleportation technology, and the line about solid ground is just flowery nonsense.

I like it because it looks like the Cassius ram but isn't made from sketchy FW resin. Heck... I've got half a mind to get two and glue them together to make my own ram.

And there are still places that frown on FW. This bridges the gap.

I wonder if people would be complaining about battlefield roless if it has the DA flier rules but still looked like it does?

 Eldarain wrote:
With the way they treated Ghaz it's looking like each army will just arbitrarily have their most Iconic characters moved to the LoW slot without much of a boost.

That's really disappointing as it would have been a great opportunity to mirror what their FW peers (betters?) did with the Primarchs in 30K

It comes off feeling like an artificial way to break down player resistance to LoWs to me.

this is actually a good thing,


you now get 2 hq choices, AND your 3rd "LOW HQ"

also helps keep in check the # of "uber OMG ROFLSTOMP" units people can take

 easysauce wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
With the way they treated Ghaz it's looking like each army will just arbitrarily have their most Iconic characters moved to the LoW slot without much of a boost.

That's really disappointing as it would have been a great opportunity to mirror what their FW peers (betters?) did with the Primarchs in 30K

It comes off feeling like an artificial way to break down player resistance to LoWs to me.

also helps keep in check the # of "uber OMG ROFLSTOMP" units people can take

In what way?

 Eldarain wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
With the way they treated Ghaz it's looking like each army will just arbitrarily have their most Iconic characters moved to the LoW slot without much of a boost.

That's really disappointing as it would have been a great opportunity to mirror what their FW peers (betters?) did with the Primarchs in 30K

It comes off feeling like an artificial way to break down player resistance to LoWs to me.

also helps keep in check the # of "uber OMG ROFLSTOMP" units people can take

In what way?

because if you take this LoW your slot is already occupied and cannot take another unless you take another CAD.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Again: Context.

The idea is they like firm, proven technologies.

Thus, they decide to create their own special snowflake dropship/gunship and their own special snowflake super-cannon. Meanwhile teleportation technology, which has been used by almost every Astartes for 11 millenia, is "unproven" technology.

Razorbacks are explicitly noted within their descriptions as being a new and relatively unproven technology, yet they eagerly use those as well. I don't think the reliability of the technology has anything to do with it. What I think is that they simply don't like teleportation technology, and the line about solid ground is just flowery nonsense.

Yeah yeah, we all know it's a badly written section of fluff that has randomly and unnecessarily been retconned in and out depending on what the fluff writers were eating the night before, lets try and get past it.

GW never should have introduced that silly bit of fluff and if they did, they should have explained it better and elaborated on it better.

 easysauce wrote:

this is actually a good thing,


you now get 2 hq choices, AND your 3rd "LOW HQ"

also helps keep in check the # of "uber OMG ROFLSTOMP" units people can take

What if you don't want two HQ's+a pseudo-HQ and/or your list doesn't support two HQ's+a pseudo-HQ?

What if... you just want to use fething Ghazghkull as your HQ like you've been doing for ten years and not simultaneously open the floodgates to Apocalypse units troll-facing in your games?

The obvious answer is "times change, move on". But I think it's fair to say that moving iconic HQ's to the LoW slot is very obviously just a form of coercion. If you want more than three HQ's, you can take multiple detachments/allied detachments.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah yeah, we all know it's a badly written section of fluff that has randomly and unnecessarily been retconned in and out depending on what the fluff writers were eating the night before, lets try and get past it.

Well, if we all knew it then I wouldn't be having this conversation.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

this is actually a good thing,


you now get 2 hq choices, AND your 3rd "LOW HQ"

also helps keep in check the # of "uber OMG ROFLSTOMP" units people can take

What if you don't want two HQ's+a pseudo-HQ and/or your list doesn't support two HQ's+a pseudo-HQ?

What if... you just want to use fething Ghazghkull as your HQ like you've been doing for ten years and not open the floodgates to Apocalypse units troll-facing in your games?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah yeah, we all know it's a badly written section of fluff that has randomly and unnecessarily been retconned in and out depending on what the fluff writers were eating the night before, lets try and get past it.

Well, if we all knew it then I wouldn't be having this conversation.

unbound?

 easysauce wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
With the way they treated Ghaz it's looking like each army will just arbitrarily have their most Iconic characters moved to the LoW slot without much of a boost.

That's really disappointing as it would have been a great opportunity to mirror what their FW peers (betters?) did with the Primarchs in 30K

It comes off feeling like an artificial way to break down player resistance to LoWs to me.

this is actually a good thing,


you now get 2 hq choices, AND your 3rd "LOW HQ"

also helps keep in check the # of "uber OMG ROFLSTOMP" units people can take

"You want to use Ghaz? Cool, I'll just field my Phantom Titan then since it's also a LOW!"

Totally awesome, right? No. It was a dumb move. He doesn't have the stats of a LOW, even another infantry LOW like the Primarchs. He's barely better than a normal Warboss, statwise.

How does Unbound allow you to use use fething Ghazghkull as your HQ like you've been doing for ten years and not open the floodgates to Apocalypse units troll-facing in your games? lol

You can use any unit in the game in an Unbound list.

you seriously WANT an ork list with one, and ONLY one hq?


WTF are you building your list to do?

there are rules that allow you to not need to take an HQ for that already... so you can stop QQ'ing about your "ten year list" suddenly being invalid as you can still take it, and no one worth playing will not let you take ghazz.

for tourneys,
any competitive list you will take an HQ as well as ghazzy if you think ghazz is really a competitive choice...

getting 4 HQ's + ghazzy is better for orks then being able to feild ghaz as an HQ solo with no other hq's..

 streamdragon wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
With the way they treated Ghaz it's looking like each army will just arbitrarily have their most Iconic characters moved to the LoW slot without much of a boost.

That's really disappointing as it would have been a great opportunity to mirror what their FW peers (betters?) did with the Primarchs in 30K

It comes off feeling like an artificial way to break down player resistance to LoWs to me.

this is actually a good thing,


you now get 2 hq choices, AND your 3rd "LOW HQ"

also helps keep in check the # of "uber OMG ROFLSTOMP" units people can take

"You want to use Ghaz? Cool, I'll just field my Phantom Titan then since it's also a LOW!"

Totally awesome, right? No. It was a dumb move. He doesn't have the stats of a LOW, even another infantry LOW like the Primarchs. He's barely better than a normal Warboss, statwise.

so... don't play that douche who wants to use a Phantom Titan against you. Or Phantom Titan's suddenly burst into existence because you bring a LOW? Does everybody who owns a titan bring it everyday to the store just in case someone brings Ghaz?

ah but it's forum overreaction... never mind me then.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
How does Unbound allow you to use use fething Ghazghkull as your HQ like you've been doing for ten years and not open the floodgates to Apocalypse units troll-facing in your games? lol

You can use any unit in the game in an Unbound list.

Because you can play an Unbound list with Ghazkul without your opponent having one, just as they can play unbound and bring 'apocalypse units' while you play a Battle Forged list. What how you and your opponent build your lists are exclusive and independent events.

The issue is that SC LOW is stupid as a concept

 streamdragon wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
With the way they treated Ghaz it's looking like each army will just arbitrarily have their most Iconic characters moved to the LoW slot without much of a boost.

That's really disappointing as it would have been a great opportunity to mirror what their FW peers (betters?) did with the Primarchs in 30K

It comes off feeling like an artificial way to break down player resistance to LoWs to me.

this is actually a good thing,


you now get 2 hq choices, AND your 3rd "LOW HQ"

also helps keep in check the # of "uber OMG ROFLSTOMP" units people can take

"You want to use Ghaz? Cool, I'll just field my Phantom Titan then since it's also a LOW!"

Totally awesome, right? No. It was a dumb move. He doesn't have the stats of a LOW, even another infantry LOW like the Primarchs. He's barely better than a normal Warboss, statwise.

so unecessary attitude and being unrealistic? yup sounds like streamdragon...

tournaments allow ghazzy, they dont allow revenaunts, welcome to players packs, this shouldnt be news as these kinds of things have been needed for tournaments for every edition.

orks can get 5+ hq's with the way GW did it, its awesome, your PUG games you can still use ghazzy as your leader if you are so upset over having to take one of the other awesome HQ' choices that make your list better as well...

ghazzy is also available as a AWESOME formation that kicks so much butt it makes me glad to be an ork... so he can be your warlord still, and wont take up a low slot...

so we can get 3 + 5 "hqs" that way...


have fun complaining about that huge buff though,

Where did all the SW rumors go?

Take all the gak talk to this thread

The LOW debate happened around page 7 or so when we heard Bjorn and Logan may be in the LOW slot.

Not debating the merits of the rule, but I for one don't mind so much.

Whats slowed is that Gazzy the iconic image of a warboss can't have a stompa in his detachment. Makes no sense. If they go this route with all books it means Abby can never have a LOW in his detachment....Excuse me what!? Those are the types that would have titans in their vanguard. Yet hillariously enough, in one detachment, exiled folks like Fabulous Bill can have their own LOW...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Where did all the SW rumors go?

Take all the gak talk to this thread

The LOW debate happened around page 7 or so when we heard Bjorn and Logan may be in the LOW slot.

Not debating the merits of the rule, but I for one don't mind so much.

Welcome to a rumors thread. In the absence of steady new rumors we have nothing but speculation. My guess is its a week until anything new is released from the next WDW.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Whats slowed is that Gazzy the iconic image of a warboss can't have a stompa in his detachment. Makes no sense. If they go this route with all books it means Abby can never have a LOW in his detachment....Excuse me what!? Those are the types that would have titans in their vanguard. Yet hillariously enough, in one detachment, exiled folks like Fabulous Bill can have their own LOW...

You can take the stompa in the second detachment if my reading of the new force org rules is correct. You can take as many detachments as you want as long as the points fit and the minimum requirements are met. If you don't have 4 troops and 2 hq's in your ork force, I'd say that you're not the typical player. This is frankly mostly a non-issue. Also, you of course have the completely bat-poop crazy unbound rules if you don't meet those minimum requirements as well.

 pretre wrote:
Can we get over the assault tangent since none of the rumors indicated anything of the sort?

Good job, now they are argueing over how many HQs Orks should run.

For those wanting to Assault as early as possible with the new flier, you can run a Skyshield Landing Pad with the upgrade that allows a flyer to start on it.

Could do a turn 2 assault pretty easily, depending on some variables.

I really think these 2 new fliers are winners, due to the firepower and armor.

 pretre wrote:

I feel this short clip sums up my initial impression of it pretty accurately



Although I'm hardly an impartial party, as I've always felt space wolf stuff looked kind of stupid in general, and I play Orks for goodness sake.

Thanks for the contribution anyways! :eyeroll:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I feel this short clip sums up my initial impression of it pretty accurately

That would also have been my initial impression if it weren't for the fact I collect Space Wolves

Well obviously looks are subjective, but it's a cockpit and big engines with big guns strapped to either an even bigger gun or a compliment of Russ' finest.

What's not to like?

That is the stupidest model I have ever seen, and that includes the Dreadknight. It's literally a Storm Talon with a huge box slapped on the front. The missile pods that flank the cockpit are flush with the huge box, and are never going to hit anything other than the craft itself.

It looks like the results of accidentally going too far with the Extrude tool in Sketchup.

I think you might be confusing missiles with rockets. Missiles have guidance. You can fire them out and then they use their propulsion and limited machine spirit to hit their target.

 pretre wrote:
I think you might be confusing missiles with rockets. Missiles have guidance. You can fire them out and then they use their propulsion and limited machine spirit to hit their target.

Gravity/wind turbulence coming over the hull would pull them into the hull before the guidance had a chance to adjust the trajectory.

Also, the exhaust from the rocket would blind the pilot/obscure the windscreen.