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I always wanted a Caestus but my experiences assembling a Storm Eagle have scared me off, so this looks like a safe compromise. With all the Storm Raven bits (wings etc) I have lying around from the aforementioned Eagle it should be a fun customization project.

Space Wolves allied detachment is go!

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Triangle time!

Anyway - back on TOPIC.

With the new assault flier, does this make SW termies viable again?

Going off of the DA codex - could we see an upgraded Terminator squad or just plain new rules for WG?

I can't see how it would help them much. They are still overcosted, and the earliest you can get into assault from a flier is turn 3, that's best case. That also doesn't factor danger to passengers being on a destroyed flier(STR 10 AP1 hits to everyone).

It would be cool to see some positive changes to WG terminators though.

Does it not make a difference that the Stormwolf version has an assault ramp? I know that you can't assault on the turn you come on from reserves but doesn't this supersede that a little bit because the assault ramp is meant to allow a disembark to go into assault like on a Land Raider. Right?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If someone has access to the 2nd Ed Space Wolf Codex, feel free to add anything:

Codex Space Wolves, 3rd Edition, page 4 wrote:Will Not Teleport: Space Wolves have little trust or respect for the more arcane aspects of the technology used by the Imperium. In particular, they dislike the idea of teleporting into battle and remain stubbornly opposed to its use. To represent this, any Space Wolves models with Terminator armour may not Deep Strike unless the entire army enters play in drop pods.

Codex Space Wolves, 5th Edition, page 61, the rules for Terminator Armour wrote:NB: Though the Terminators of other Space Marine Chapters often teleport straight into battle, Space Wolves have a deep mistrust of such arcane tactics and prefer to fight on their feet on solid ground, just as Russ intended.

They are fine with aircraft. They are fine with space flight. They are fine with orbital deployment, gunships, rough landings, Land Speeders, jump packs and pogo-sticks. They don't like to teleport, and Logan Grimnar came out in 2000. Can we all move on now?

The flight thing is on the right next to the Stormclaw entry in the third ed codex and just refers to jump packs.

edit "The Space Wolves have a perverse disdain for jump packs, preferring ot fight with both feet firmly planted on the ground "as Russ intended"." 3rd ed codex.

I totally must have sold my 2nd ed SW Codex :(

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Triangle time!

Anyway - back on TOPIC.

With the new assault flier, does this make SW termies viable again?

Going off of the DA codex - could we see an upgraded Terminator squad or just plain new rules for WG?

I can't see how it would help them much. They are still overcosted, and the earliest you can get into assault from a flier is turn 3, that's best case. That also doesn't factor danger to passengers being on a destroyed flier(STR 10 AP1 hits to everyone).

It would be cool to see some positive changes to WG terminators though.

Does it not make a difference that the Stormwolf version has an assault ramp? I know that you can't assault on the turn you come on from reserves but doesn't this supersede that a little bit because the assault ramp is meant to allow a disembark to go into assault like on a Land Raider. Right?

Unfortunately no, Stormraven has the same problem.

So, while they can assault when they disembark thanks to the ramp...it has to be on a turn after they arrive from Reserves.

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Triangle time!

Anyway - back on TOPIC.

With the new assault flier, does this make SW termies viable again?

Going off of the DA codex - could we see an upgraded Terminator squad or just plain new rules for WG?

I can't see how it would help them much. They are still overcosted, and the earliest you can get into assault from a flier is turn 3, that's best case. That also doesn't factor danger to passengers being on a destroyed flier(STR 10 AP1 hits to everyone).

It would be cool to see some positive changes to WG terminators though.

Does it not make a difference that the Stormwolf version has an assault ramp? I know that you can't assault on the turn you come on from reserves but doesn't this supersede that a little bit because the assault ramp is meant to allow a disembark to go into assault like on a Land Raider. Right?

Unfortunately no, Stormraven has the same problem.

So, while they can assault when they disembark thanks to the ramp...it has to be on a turn after they arrive from Reserves.

That sucks, maybe they'll come out with a special rule "Hunger of the Wolf" or something that lets them assault because they're so eager to get into combat

 pretre wrote:
edit "The Space Wolves have a perverse disdain for jump packs, preferring ot fight with both feet firmly planted on the ground "as Russ intended"." 3rd ed codex.

And yet they still use them, unlike teleporation, which they categorically do not.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 pretre wrote:
edit "The Space Wolves have a perverse disdain for jump packs, preferring ot fight with both feet firmly planted on the ground "as Russ intended"." 3rd ed codex.

Slightly different to a deep distrust of arcane technology.

Yeah, it's separate issues, imo. One is 'avoid the warp'; the other is 'It may be funny to hit each other while flying through the air like some sort of chinese wire-work movie, but that's not how Russ used to roll'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And yet they still use them, unlike teleporation, which they categorically do not.

Ninja edit! Yeah, I think one is a deep prohibition. Might even say that they think of Teleportation as a kind of sorcery/maleficarum since it involves the warp. Whereas the other one, they just think is silly and only for pups.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

That sucks, maybe they'll come out with a special rule "Hunger of the Wolf" or something that lets them assault because they're so eager to get into combat

When that happens, Ork players, Dark Eldar players and Tyranid players will all break down in tears.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

That sucks, maybe they'll come out with a special rule "Hunger of the Wolf" or something that lets them assault because they're so eager to get into combat

When that happens, Ork players, Dark Eldar players and Tyranid players will all break down in tears.

So will Eldar. Tau and Necron players, for different reasons

There really should be several units across different armies that should be able to assault the turn they arrive. Lictors most definitely. It should represent a unit's ability to get in to combat before the enemy even has a chance to fire. So yeah, Lictors should, Space Wolves, eh, not so much.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

That sucks, maybe they'll come out with a special rule "Hunger of the Wolf" or something that lets them assault because they're so eager to get into combat

When that happens, Ork players, Dark Eldar players and Tyranid players will all break down in tears.

You mean I could have a cheesy assault rule AND make people cry?! It literally would be Christmas in July!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There really should be several units across different armies that should be able to assault the turn they arrive. Lictors most definitely. It should represent a unit's ability to get in to combat before the enemy even has a chance to fire. So yeah, Lictors should, Space Wolves, eh, not so much.

I agree.

I don't know what the difference is between coming down the speed of sound in a drop pod, being able to "move out" and shoot at full effectiveness or throw a bomb etc...., and then not be able to assault because? Jet lag?

Or teleporting on the field and have to forgo shooting so you're not clumped up for 5" template goodness.

Seems silly and historically they've made this change as we have moved through the editions as those in 3rd will remember BA/Zerker Rhino rush

Good times.

So yeah, Lictors should, Space Wolves, eh, not so much.

Your opinion.

I don't think it breaks the fluff, i just think it looks wonky.

Justyn wrote:

So yeah, Lictors should, Space Wolves, eh, not so much.

Your opinion.

I figured that was kind of implied. The "eh, not so much" was because I wouldn't be offended if Space Wolves got to assault out of reserves, but to think they deserve it more than a unit like Lictors is kind of crazy... in my opinion.

Yeah,
Who wants to play in a game with assaulting the turn you turn up?

Panic...

 Panic wrote:
Yeah,
Who wants to play in a game with assaulting the turn you turn up?

Panic...

Who wants to play a game with only ONE army that can assault on turn one"

It makes no sense to me that Genestealers and the such like can't assault when they Outflank...

They've deliberately gone round the side of an enemy just to arrive and suddenly decide they're FAR too tired to assault and decide to sit and wait for the enemy to realise they are there?

Can we get over the assault tangent since none of the rumors indicated anything of the sort?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Panic wrote:
Yeah,
Who wants to play in a game with assaulting the turn you turn up?

Panic...

Who wants to play a game with only ONE army that can assault on turn one"

Well...I'm sure there will be a number of "Wolf" armies of a rainbow of colors and spikiness once again if that should come to pass. I know if Blood Angels get some kind of "Assault out of Their fast Rhinos" or "deep strike AMs can assault" I'm going to have a Chaos Raptor Blood Angel army painted like Knights of Blood faster than you can say "Hey those aren't Loyalist models..."

 Peregrine wrote:
(...)now you have to ask why they bother with these new flyers when they already have one that fills the same role.

By that logic, the Rhino chassis has no place on the battlefield because the Land Rider exists.

 pretre wrote:
Can we get over the assault tangent since none of the rumors indicated anything of the sort?

I'm not sure this thread is ready for that or when Logan came out or if the wolf flier is pretty or if SW should fly/teleport/be fluffy....

I'm pretty sure that if Logan had come out in 2000, he'd've been able to assault out of a Caestus ram, on the grounds that (a) it's pretty and (b) I painted it so there is soil and grass on the inside of the ramp, enabling him to 'fight with his feet on the ground', whereas if he was more recent than that there's no way he could assault out of a Stormwolf, because that's clearly ugly AND unfluffy.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if Logan had come out in 2000, he'd've been able to assault out of a Caestus ram, on the grounds that (a) it's pretty and (b) I painted it so there is soil and grass on the inside of the ramp, enabling him to 'fight with his feet on the ground', whereas if he was more recent than that there's no way he could assault out of a Stormwolf, because that's clearly ugly AND unfluffy.

Khine wrote:Real world example. Two young boys are born on the same day, at the same time, in the same city, in the same hospital, whose mothers were both in the same room. They both fill the role of child and son to a mother. Why not, by your logic, make both mothers share the same child? Because, by your logic, why should the both exist?

SmurfInABlender wrote:Also, again, The military has many ships that are virtually smaller variations of larger ships. Space Wolves tend to fight in smaller packs (on full expeditions, not like in battle) It would make sense to have smaller assault ships, therefore having a smaller variation of the Ceastus.

The US Navy has smaller versions of Aircraft Carriers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier

I mean, if they serve roughly the same purpose why not just use the big ones? Because you don't always NEED the big ones thats why. The military is full of different model crafts that serve redundant purposes. It shows a lack of military knowledge when one complains that having redundant crafts is "unrealistic" when it's actually very realistic.

His Master's Voice wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
(...)now you have to ask why they bother with these new flyers when they already have one that fills the same role.

By that logic, the Rhino chassis has no place on the battlefield because the Land Rider exists.

I don't necessarily disagree that the Stormwhatever and the Caestus should not coexist in a given army, but you guys really suck at analogies.

1) Comparing kids to military vehicles, really?

2) Large ships are very different, they are big complex devices that take many man hours and dollars to build, so you're more likely to see core design variation than smaller vehicles which tend to get locked in to a single core design with variations coming in the form of additions to it (kind of like how there's several vehicles based off the Chimera chassis).

3) The LR and Rhino are 2 completely different roles, one is a large, expensive, heavily armed assault transport vehicle, the other is a small, cheaper, lightly armed non-assault transport.

Now sure, I could see the Caestus and the giant dog's head coexisting in an army, but you guys really need to start coming up with better analogies, lol.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The LR and Rhino are 2 completely different roles, one is a large, expensive, heavily armed assault transport vehicle, the other is a small, cheaper, lightly armed non-assault transport.

The Predator is almost as heavily armoured as the Land Rider on the front. Nothing prevents SM from slapping a Vindicator shield on a Rhino and driving it up the enemy's face.

The point is, having multiple vehicles serving similar roles with a different chassis is not some universe shattering breach of reason.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Now sure, I could see the Caestus and the giant dog's head coexisting in an army, but you guys really need to start coming up with better analogies, lol.

There's a reason analogies are usually crappy forms of debate.

People tend to only fashion an analogy that advances their own agenda. The actual strength of the analogy is secondary to whether or not it advances the arguer's position.

I'll check back now and then to see when the complaining stops.

 pretre wrote:
Can we get over the assault tangent since none of the rumors indicated anything of the sort?

Yep, the White Dwarf leaks indicate that the Stomwolf will have go into hover mode and wait until the following turn in order to disembark it's troops. So, two turns minimum for it's embarked troops to assault.

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nonsense. The idea that these two things can't co-exist is stupid.

But why should they exist? This is like GW inventing a new "Rhino" kit that works just like a Rhino, except it has a bunch of wolf icons glued everywhere, some of the detail bits are rearranged, and the storm bolter is twin-linked.

what, you mean like a razor back?

or one of the upteen variations on the lemen russ chassis?

or chimera chassis?

or the eldar wave serpant chassis?