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Okay. I've been thinking about some of the melee weapons and I'm trying to imagine the damage they could cause to vehicles. For some of them I can see a little bit of potential but have a hard time imagining them penetrating thick armour and doing anything but superficial damage.

Power Klaw - Grips and rips off light pieces of armour. You'd be able to immobilize a vehicle, and perhaps take out its weaponry but I don't really see it ripping apart a tank.
Power Fist - Dents the armour and can rip off some pieces too. Might create spalling inside, but again I don't see much damage apart from immobilization and taking out the weapons.
Chain-fist - Are you just scraping it around the tank or trying to bore a hole through the armour? Wouldn't that only work best on a stationary tank? I don't get this one at all.
Etc.
Etc.

Not only do you have to get passed all their guns, but then you have to try hitting a moving tank with a melee weapon. Tanks go at like 60kph... good luck trying to catch it and then get a grip to rip stuff off with a Power Klaw etc. Also a tank won't just let you hurt it; they'd continue moving and then jink from side to side to throw off anyone holding on at those speeds (if they ever even manage to get on). Plus the other tanks in its squad won't just let you hurt their compatriots, they'd cover each other with their machine guns and shoot off any stupid person trying to hit them with melee weapons.

I'm really not seeing these AT melee weapons and how they're applied. I mean, if these power weapons were SOOOo good at penetrating armour, why not just have a power cannon shell? Why not have power bolter rounds? Instead of having hard to apply AT melee weapons.

Also, because it appears power weapons don't insta-gib other power weapons; referencing duels with power weaponry where the weapons just deflect/bounce off of each other in sparks. Why not have power tank armour then to protect against the power weapons?

-------------------------------

Anyone care to enlighten me as to how these melee weapons... and other AT melee weapons are supposed to be able to take out vehicles and how they do it in the fluff?

Well for one, I'm pretty sure all power weapons are made of adamantanium, which isn't exactly in large supply or feasible for tanks. Secondly you have to remember that the power field surrounding power werapons dissolves molecular bonds, meaning that upon contact it's ripping and tearing with incredible ease, which is also especially increased in the case of an Astartes or Ork Nob, who are incredibly strong compared to guardsmen or ork boy with a power weapon.

Power Klaws with crunch clean through armor, kinda like the jaws of life, only sheathed in a matter-destroying energy field, it and power fists will not even be hindered by armor, they'll punch and rip clean though like it's not even there.

Chainfists are more geared to puncturing and cutting than Klaws or Fists, just push and shove through the armor and start to saw through things.

40k is fantasy in space. In real life, it's hard to get soldiers to get into melee range of tanks. Hell, even if you get them there all you have to do is fire the main gun and the guys near it will be killed from the blast force. In addition, nothing is stopping the tank from just driving over/away from the attackers.

In 40k, units aren't deterred by a tank's automatic weapon fire, are very resillient and strong. Tanks in 40k are also slow which doesn't help the matter. It would be easy to run up to a Leman Russ and start tearing it to pieces if your men are sufficiently motivated/armed. Same for Rhinos/Chimers/Land Raiders etc. if you are a faster runner.

As for how they do their damage... I guess you just have to use your imagination. A Nob with a power claw can rip off a tank's tread, tear out it's engine or rip off armor plating. Things that will put the vehicle out of commission. You don't have to completely destroy a AFV to take it out of the action.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
40k is fantasy in space. In real life, it's hard to get soldiers to get into melee range of tanks. Hell, even if you get them there all you have to do is fire the main gun and the guys near it will be killed from the blast force. In addition, nothing is stopping the tank from just driving over/away from the attackers.

In 40k, units aren't deterred by a tank's automatic weapon fire, are very resillient and strong. Tanks in 40k are also slow which doesn't help the matter. It would be easy to run up to a Leman Russ and start tearing it to pieces if your men are sufficiently motivated/armed. Same for Rhinos/Chimers/Land Raiders etc. if you are a faster runner.

As for how they do their damage... I guess you just have to use your imagination. A Nob with a power claw can rip off a tank's tread, tear out it's engine or rip off armor plating. Things that will put the vehicle out of commission. You don't have to completely destroy a AFV to take it out of the action.

This.

40k tanks aren't realistic by any means, nor is anything about the way infantry attack tanks in-game. Some weapons make sense, we have real life equivalents to Krak Grenades and the like, but something like a PowerKlaw trying to tear apart a tank, aside from maybe tearing off treads or bending gun barrels, that's mostly just imagination.

Plus, if you have a power fist, you can just punch through the plate, peel it off, and then step in and say hello to the crew.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Plus, if you have a power fist, you can just punch through the plate, peel it off, and then step in and say hello to the crew.

Well, something that big would actually have a problem punching through tank armor, at least on an MBT. The surface area is huge (whereas ballistic penetrators are basically hypersonic arrows and HEAT rounds work projective a focused jet of superheated gas and metal). If packing enough force conceivably it could smash/crush armor inward, but punching through would be unlikely.

Remember why melee attacks always target the rear armor of a vehicle: they're close enough and precise enough that they're attacking the weak points. You're not going through an armor plate; you're striking at the tread, or the hinge of a hatch, or an exhaust port.

If a 600 pound alien who can lift a thousand pounds has a massive ripping claw latched to his cyborneticly enhanced arm, I don't think it is inconceivable that he might be able to do some serious damage to an armored vehicle.

Similarly, an enhanced human of the same size and strength armed with a glove that courses with an antimatter field would likely be able to do the same. Power fists don't so much punch their way through things, they annihilate the matter itself. THe glove aspect allows the user to pull and annihilate components and chunks out of vehicles and monsters as the field does its job.

Power fields are described as destabilising molecular bonds, hence they cut through armour easily. If you have that capability on your hand, you just wave it through the armour aor accessible subsystems and you'll cause horrendous damage. Chainfists have the power field, the big hand and a giant rippy blade to add to the fun.

From memory the rulebook states that units (including vehicles) are not moving at full speed, but are rather moving cautiously across the battlefield, so catching them for a stiff kicking shouldn't be impossible.

You also have to remember. Tanks have a fairly limited field of view. The tanks in 40k aren't bristling with external cameras. You have a radio some really small windows and thats about it. A tank is probably so busy shooting at stuff to notice the squad of infantry charging it from the side.

Imperial tanks are also pretty damned slow (in my imagination anyway) akin to late ww1 early ww2 tanks from our era. xenos stuff I havent got an excuse for yet.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Plus, if you have a power fist, you can just punch through the plate, peel it off, and then step in and say hello to the crew.

Well, something that big would actually have a problem punching through tank armor, at least on an MBT. The surface area is huge (whereas ballistic penetrators are basically hypersonic arrows and HEAT rounds work projective a focused jet of superheated gas and metal). If packing enough force conceivably it could smash/crush armor inward, but punching through would be unlikely.

You do realize that power weapons are wrapped in a matter-destroying energy field, right? Punching through a tank with a power-fist, which literally destroys the tank's armor plating, isn't difficult at all.

The energy fields have been described lots of different ways, and rarely with any particular detail as to their mechanics (as opposed to descriptive adjectives). Besides, if they're matter destroyed fields, it shouldn't matter if it's a power sword or a fist, it'd be the field doing the damage, yet the type of weapon clearly does.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The energy fields have been described lots of different ways, and rarely with any particular detail as to their mechanics (as opposed to descriptive adjectives). Besides, if they're matter destroyed fields, it shouldn't matter if it's a power sword or a fist, it'd be the field doing the damage, yet the type of weapon clearly does.

Power Fist is bigger, for one, and has more of an impact with each hit. Not sure about why the damage is different to vehicles, and I imagine it's just for variation. You're just more likely to hit with a Power Fist and get something important because it's so massive.

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
You also have to remember. Tanks have a fairly limited field of view. The tanks in 40k aren't bristling with external cameras. You have a radio some really small windows and thats about it. A tank is probably so busy shooting at stuff to notice the squad of infantry charging it from the side.

Imperial tanks are also pretty damned slow (in my imagination anyway) akin to late ww1 early ww2 tanks from our era. xenos stuff I havent got an excuse for yet.

Yup. And they have to be as the technology to fire accurately on the move has been lost to time. As in 38,000 years time.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The energy fields have been described lots of different ways, and rarely with any particular detail as to their mechanics (as opposed to descriptive adjectives). Besides, if they're matter destroyed fields, it shouldn't matter if it's a power sword or a fist, it'd be the field doing the damage, yet the type of weapon clearly does.

Power Fist is bigger, for one, and has more of an impact with each hit. Not sure about why the damage is different to vehicles, and I imagine it's just for variation. You're just more likely to hit with a Power Fist and get something important because it's so massive.

The power fist seems to have a more intense field. Remember, it has a big cable and stuff which the power sword does not need.

Sort of like the difference between a lasgun and a hotshot lasgun.

There is also Thunder Hammers, which hit really fething hard. IIRC, in 5th Ed they automatically caused a Crew Shaken result due to the huge force.

 Otto Weston wrote:

I'm really not seeing these AT melee weapons and how they're applied. I mean, if these power weapons were SOOOo good at penetrating armour, why not just have a power cannon shell? Why not have power bolter rounds? Instead of having hard to apply AT melee weapons.

Also, because it appears power weapons don't insta-gib other power weapons; referencing duels with power weaponry where the weapons just deflect/bounce off of each other in sparks. Why not have power tank armour then to protect against the power weapons?

This is a case of Misapplied Phlebotinum.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The energy fields have been described lots of different ways, and rarely with any particular detail as to their mechanics (as opposed to descriptive adjectives). Besides, if they're matter destroyed fields, it shouldn't matter if it's a power sword or a fist, it'd be the field doing the damage, yet the type of weapon clearly does.

Power Fist is bigger, for one, and has more of an impact with each hit. Not sure about why the damage is different to vehicles, and I imagine it's just for variation. You're just more likely to hit with a Power Fist and get something important because it's so massive.

The power fist seems to have a more intense field. Remember, it has a big cable and stuff which the power sword does not need.

Sort of like the difference between a lasgun and a hotshot lasgun.

Some power fists do have cables, some don't. The PCS/CCS Power Fist doesn't have a cable, IIRC.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The energy fields have been described lots of different ways, and rarely with any particular detail as to their mechanics (as opposed to descriptive adjectives). Besides, if they're matter destroyed fields, it shouldn't matter if it's a power sword or a fist, it'd be the field doing the damage, yet the type of weapon clearly does.

Power Fist is bigger, for one, and has more of an impact with each hit. Not sure about why the damage is different to vehicles, and I imagine it's just for variation. You're just more likely to hit with a Power Fist and get something important because it's so massive.

The power fist seems to have a more intense field. Remember, it has a big cable and stuff which the power sword does not need.

Sort of like the difference between a lasgun and a hotshot lasgun.

Some power fists do have cables, some don't. The PCS/CCS Power Fist doesn't have a cable, IIRC.

There are lots of power fists in 40K, and the guardsman infantry ones are the only ones who lack cables. Presumably this makes them less powerful as they have to rely on an internal power charge.

Notably, however, the Commissar's power fist has a cable + backpack. Perhaps implying that those with backpack and cable are superior given that I doubt a Commissar would be given weapons of inferior quality to those of a PCS.

 Selym wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:

I'm really not seeing these AT melee weapons and how they're applied. I mean, if these power weapons were SOOOo good at penetrating armour, why not just have a power cannon shell? Why not have power bolter rounds? Instead of having hard to apply AT melee weapons.

Also, because it appears power weapons don't insta-gib other power weapons; referencing duels with power weaponry where the weapons just deflect/bounce off of each other in sparks. Why not have power tank armour then to protect against the power weapons?

This is a case of Misapplied Phlebotinum.

Not really. Not quite, anyway. Remember, the AdMech of 40K has lost... as in gone forever, never to be found again... most of humanity's technological innovations. All they have left is power-field generators that can fit relatively small weapons. Maybe during the DAoT there were power-field-wrapped tanks... but none now.

Also, the powerfield generator has to go with the object being so power-fielded, so trying to fit one onto a bolter round is both redundant (it's already armor-piercing and explosive) and difficult (there's only so much space in that shell).

 Psienesis wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:

I'm really not seeing these AT melee weapons and how they're applied. I mean, if these power weapons were SOOOo good at penetrating armour, why not just have a power cannon shell? Why not have power bolter rounds? Instead of having hard to apply AT melee weapons.

Also, because it appears power weapons don't insta-gib other power weapons; referencing duels with power weaponry where the weapons just deflect/bounce off of each other in sparks. Why not have power tank armour then to protect against the power weapons?

This is a case of Misapplied Phlebotinum.

Not really. Not quite, anyway. Remember, the AdMech of 40K has lost... as in gone forever, never to be found again... most of humanity's technological innovations. All they have left is power-field generators that can fit relatively small weapons. Maybe during the DAoT there were power-field-wrapped tanks... but none now.

Also, the powerfield generator has to go with the object being so power-fielded, so trying to fit one onto a bolter round is both redundant (it's already armor-piercing and explosive) and difficult (there's only so much space in that shell).

Well fair enough. It's nearly M-P.

 Otto Weston wrote:
I'm really not seeing these AT melee weapons and how they're applied. I mean, if these power weapons were SOOOo good at penetrating armour, why not just have a power cannon shell? Why not have power bolter rounds? Instead of having hard to apply AT melee weapons.

A few reasons:

1) Power weaponry is incredibly rare and expensive, like really really rare. It's not worth making a single shell, as the cost will be massive but the practical use minimal.
2) Power weaponry is likely somewhat delicate. Delicate to an extent that firing it out of a cannon is probably not too good for it.
3) Power weaponry is a sacred piece of advanced technology. Try arguing with the Techpriests that you want to shoot a several thousand year old piece of priceless technology out of a cannon.

Also, because it appears power weapons don't insta-gib other power weapons; referencing duels with power weaponry where the weapons just deflect/bounce off of each other in sparks. Why not have power tank armour then to protect against the power weapons?

Well, expense and rarity of power weaponry for one. More importantly, there would be practical issues with a tank which slices/crushes anything it touches.

No, it doesn't make sense at all. If power weapons were so great at killing tanks there would be no chance of an infantry target surviving a hit from one. Power weapon duels wouldn't involve one side getting wounded dramatically, they would be resolved by the first hit cutting the victim in half and instantly killing them. Similarly, the strength of the user would be completely irrelevant, if the power weapon itself is so amazing at cutting through armor plate then even a small child could cut a space marine in half every time.

And remember: eviscerators are much much more efficient than power weapons are killing vehicles.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And remember: eviscerators are much much more efficient than power weapons are killing vehicles.

[citation needed]

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And remember: eviscerators are much much more efficient than power weapons are killing vehicles.

[citation needed]

Well it has the same strength/AP but also has armourbane. It does have two handed though.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, it doesn't make sense at all. If power weapons were so great at killing tanks there would be no chance of an infantry target surviving a hit from one. Power weapon duels wouldn't involve one side getting wounded dramatically, they would be resolved by the first hit cutting the victim in half and instantly killing them. Similarly, the strength of the user would be completely irrelevant, if the power weapon itself is so amazing at cutting through armor plate then even a small child could cut a space marine in half every time.

Actually it does. Assuming you're swinging a giant meaty fist at me, based on weapon skill if you want, I have a reasonable chance to roll/duck out of the way. A tank is more or less a barn, can't roll/dodge, and can only really drive away. If you're within a couple feet, I have a chance of avoiding you. A tank not so much.

Also, most Power Fist wounds usually do insta-kill, unless you're going up against something equally tough (a daemon prince or a effin' Dreadnought for example).

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And remember: eviscerators are much much more efficient than power weapons are killing vehicles.

[citation needed]

Sx2 AP1 Armorbane vs S:u AP3 for the power sword. That is a really huge difference in the crunch. And the eviscerator is better than every other power weapon too, only matched by the chainfist. If you think that the power sword is better at damaging vehicles than eviscerators, there is quite a big dissonance between the fluff and the crunch here.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And remember: eviscerators are much much more efficient than power weapons are killing vehicles.

[citation needed]

Crunch aside, a Power Sword is what, two to three feet long? You'll ding the shell with that, maybe cut a spar or two.

An Eviscerator is five to six feet long with, at the very least, the same atomic dissolution field around the blade. You'll be cutting halfway through the tank with that, assuming identical penetrative abilities.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
40k is fantasy in space. In real life, it's hard to get soldiers to get into melee range of tanks. Hell, even if you get them there all you have to do is fire the main gun and the guys near it will be killed from the blast force. In addition, nothing is stopping the tank from just driving over/away from the attackers.

There were plenty of WW2 examples of tanks getting wrecked in 'mellee' with a set of grenades.