Eldar are the Anti-Fun

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**extremefreak17**

Swastakowey wrote:
extremefreak17 wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
I suspect it's well earned, and possibly well deserved.

Seriously, I've encountered Eldar players who claim to "love the fluff and the models" yet when I see them play, they NEVER field anything outside of Dire Avengers, Farseers, Waveserpents and anything with "Wraith" in the name.

If you love the fluff and the models, how's about playing in a fluffy way (with specialist units working together in concert to achieve various objectives) and give some of those other wonderful models an airing?

This would only be really Fluffy if you were running a Biel-Tan army.

As for Wave Serpents and Jetseers, they fit Saim-Hann fluff very well. As does any mechanized Eldar list.

Wraithguard and Wraithknights fit with Iyanden, and even have a supplement to back them up.

Yea, except the vypers huh? Or falcons...

His point is, its conveniently fluffy to play crazy Eldar lists, but then you look at all the fluffy stuff thats hardly touched and you realize a lot of eldar armies happen to include all these powerful units when there are other suitable models to include.

I would have thought that a Siam Hann army would be jetbikes, autarch, vypers, Shining spears backed by some Falcons (with maybe small squads in there). But nope, apparently its farseer dire avengers (5 men, usually), wave serpents and bikes. Kinda fluffy, but not really how the art depicts them.

In the wraith front, I also imagined that they would trundle forward mindlessly guided by spirit seers and backed by weapon platforms etc. But instead its almost always a few wraiths in wave serpents with farseer and dire avengers (or something along that line).

With a codex that has SO MANY good units, only the best of the already best are chosen. In my experience this is the case as well. They defend it with fluff, but its always fluff plus wave serpents and other best of the best units.

I cant remember the last time a falcon was discussed or seen on a battle report, even though its the eldars main transport and battle tank. Even wraith lords arent seen often, not are autarchs. Where are the non Psycich based armies gone? Its all conveniently removed in favour of the best of the already best in the book.

It bugs me even more when they have a codex where there is little that is actually bad. Most players would be and do fine without all the OP units.

If someone is taking 5 man squads with wave serpents, instead of putting those 5 men in a falcon, I would question their motives immediately (in my head).

I dont refuse games, I simply fight to the end and then find a better person to play with. But I do hate the fluff twisting to justify a bland and powerful list. Especially a wraith knight, 3 wave serpents and 20 soldiers at 1000 points (my last encounter with eldar). Its a bit stupid really.

So what you are saying is that if my army does not conform to your own personal strict guidelines, it cant be fluffy? Hell, look at the Eldar Starter set....it includes 5 Dire Avengers and a Serpent, and is painted as Saim-Hann. The great thing about 40k is that the fluff is very loose and can be interpreted in many ways. To say your way is more "correct" than anything else is pretty ignorant.

Now granted, there are the WAAC Eldar donkey caves out there, but those people also exist across all of the other factions. It is pretty damn rude to lump every other Eldar player in with that group, which is what the title and premise of this thread is based on.

**Random Dude**

I'm really glad the regulars at my local GW don't reflect the personalities made evident on this thread. Spending so much time griping about how Eldar are "anti-fun" isn't really helping you have more fun. With all the time people have spent on this thread they could have played a few games against other armies.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Random Dude wrote:
I'm really glad the regulars at my local GW don't reflect the personalities made evident on this thread. Spending so much time griping about how Eldar are "anti-fun" isn't really helping you have more fun. With all the time people have spent on this thread they could have played a few games against other armies.

Welcome to the internet! You must be new here

We discuss things to death, that's how it works. If you are interested in not wasting time beating subjects to death, you are better off talking to people in person.

**Swastakowey**

Azreal13 wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
extremefreak17 wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
I suspect it's well earned, and possibly well deserved.

Seriously, I've encountered Eldar players who claim to "love the fluff and the models" yet when I see them play, they NEVER field anything outside of Dire Avengers, Farseers, Waveserpents and anything with "Wraith" in the name.

If you love the fluff and the models, how's about playing in a fluffy way (with specialist units working together in concert to achieve various objectives) and give some of those other wonderful models an airing?

This would only be really Fluffy if you were running a Biel-Tan army.

As for Wave Serpents and Jetseers, they fit Saim-Hann fluff very well. As does any mechanized Eldar list.

Wraithguard and Wraithknights fit with Iyanden, and even have a supplement to back them up.

Yea, except the vypers huh? Or falcons...

His point is, its conveniently fluffy to play crazy Eldar lists, but then you look at all the fluffy stuff thats hardly touched and you realize a lot of eldar armies happen to include all these powerful units when there are other suitable models to include.

I would have thought that a Siam Hann army would be jetbikes, autarch, vypers, Shining spears backed by some Falcons (with maybe small squads in there). But nope, apparently its farseer dire avengers (5 men, usually), wave serpents and bikes. Kinda fluffy, but not really how the art depicts them.

In the wraith front, I also imagined that they would trundle forward mindlessly guided by spirit seers and backed by weapon platforms etc. But instead its almost always a few wraiths in wave serpents with farseer and dire avengers (or something along that line).

With a codex that has SO MANY good units, only the best of the already best are chosen. In my experience this is the case as well. They defend it with fluff, but its always fluff plus wave serpents and other best of the best units.

I cant remember the last time a falcon was discussed or seen on a battle report, even though its the eldars main transport and battle tank. Even wraith lords arent seen often, not are autarchs. Where are the non Psycich based armies gone? Its all conveniently removed in favour of the best of the already best in the book.

It bugs me even more when they have a codex where there is little that is actually bad. Most players would be and do fine without all the OP units.

If someone is taking 5 man squads with wave serpents, instead of putting those 5 men in a falcon, I would question their motives immediately (in my head).

I dont refuse games, I simply fight to the end and then find a better person to play with. But I do hate the fluff twisting to justify a bland and powerful list. Especially a wraith knight, 3 wave serpents and 20 soldiers at 1000 points (my last encounter with eldar). Its a bit stupid really.

Wow, not only do we agree on something, we agree on it hard.

One can summarise Eldar players by the microcosm on my local club, which features three regular Eldar players.

The first, the classic WAAC player, plays nothing but MSU DA in Serpents with Knjght back up, when he isn't playing his Jetseer Council.

The second plays a little serpent heavy, but his lists frequently feature outliers such as Swopping Hawks and Vypers, as well as other, good but less optimal units like Jetbikes and Warp Spiders. He's even been known to run the odd Avatar.

The third has started a Guard army because he feels bad about exploiting such lopsided rules.

Its definitely a nice change haha.

extremefreak17 wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
extremefreak17 wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
I suspect it's well earned, and possibly well deserved.

Seriously, I've encountered Eldar players who claim to "love the fluff and the models" yet when I see them play, they NEVER field anything outside of Dire Avengers, Farseers, Waveserpents and anything with "Wraith" in the name.

If you love the fluff and the models, how's about playing in a fluffy way (with specialist units working together in concert to achieve various objectives) and give some of those other wonderful models an airing?

This would only be really Fluffy if you were running a Biel-Tan army.

As for Wave Serpents and Jetseers, they fit Saim-Hann fluff very well. As does any mechanized Eldar list.

Wraithguard and Wraithknights fit with Iyanden, and even have a supplement to back them up.

Yea, except the vypers huh? Or falcons...

His point is, its conveniently fluffy to play crazy Eldar lists, but then you look at all the fluffy stuff thats hardly touched and you realize a lot of eldar armies happen to include all these powerful units when there are other suitable models to include.

I would have thought that a Siam Hann army would be jetbikes, autarch, vypers, Shining spears backed by some Falcons (with maybe small squads in there). But nope, apparently its farseer dire avengers (5 men, usually), wave serpents and bikes. Kinda fluffy, but not really how the art depicts them.

In the wraith front, I also imagined that they would trundle forward mindlessly guided by spirit seers and backed by weapon platforms etc. But instead its almost always a few wraiths in wave serpents with farseer and dire avengers (or something along that line).

With a codex that has SO MANY good units, only the best of the already best are chosen. In my experience this is the case as well. They defend it with fluff, but its always fluff plus wave serpents and other best of the best units.

I cant remember the last time a falcon was discussed or seen on a battle report, even though its the eldars main transport and battle tank. Even wraith lords arent seen often, not are autarchs. Where are the non Psycich based armies gone? Its all conveniently removed in favour of the best of the already best in the book.

It bugs me even more when they have a codex where there is little that is actually bad. Most players would be and do fine without all the OP units.

If someone is taking 5 man squads with wave serpents, instead of putting those 5 men in a falcon, I would question their motives immediately (in my head).

I dont refuse games, I simply fight to the end and then find a better person to play with. But I do hate the fluff twisting to justify a bland and powerful list. Especially a wraith knight, 3 wave serpents and 20 soldiers at 1000 points (my last encounter with eldar). Its a bit stupid really.

So what you are saying is that if my army does not conform to your own personal strict guidelines, it cant be fluffy? Hell, look at the Eldar Starter set....it includes 5 Dire Avengers and a Serpent, and is painted as Saim-Hann. The great thing about 40k is that the fluff is very loose and can be interpreted in many ways. To say your way is more "correct" than anything else is pretty ignorant.

Now granted, there are the WAAC Eldar donkey caves out there, but those people also exist across all of the other factions. It is pretty damn rude to lump every other Eldar player in with that group, which is what the title and premise of this thread is based on.

I said most. Not all. I too was once an Eldar Player.

No what I am saying is fluffy isnt wave serpent, wave serpent, wave serpent, knight, bike seer, wave serpent, wave serpent, wave serpent etc.

5 dire avengers in a wave serpent is fine, but 2 squads of 5 in 2 wave serpents is not when you have jetbikes as your other mandatory choice. That is not fluffy. If you want to carry 5 men around in all your transports, invest in falcons as that is fluffy.

Remember common sense should apply to lists. and common sense isnt having 2 transports for 10 men, when 12 can fit into one. For an army famed for its efficiency, that is not fluffy.

Random Dude wrote:
I'm really glad the regulars at my local GW don't reflect the personalities made evident on this thread. Spending so much time griping about how Eldar are "anti-fun" isn't really helping you have more fun. With all the time people have spent on this thread they could have played a few games against other armies.

The time spent on this thread has earned me money (I am working) so if anything I am not being able to play a game in this time.

**MWHistorian**

Random Dude wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
For people saying that its not chess and because there are so many factions it can't be balanced; I can think of several games that manage to do just that It's GW's fault.

Trying to turn another thread into an "I hate GW" thread?

just making a correction.

**Azreal13**

Random Dude wrote:
I'm really glad the regulars at my local GW don't reflect the personalities made evident on this thread. Spending so much time griping about how Eldar are "anti-fun" isn't really helping you have more fun. With all the time people have spent on this thread they could have played a few games against other armies.

Seek out one of the regulars who plays Serpent spam, play them, then come back when you're better informed.

**Random Dude**

Azreal13 wrote:
Random Dude wrote:
I'm really glad the regulars at my local GW don't reflect the personalities made evident on this thread. Spending so much time griping about how Eldar are "anti-fun" isn't really helping you have more fun. With all the time people have spent on this thread they could have played a few games against other armies.

Seek out one of the regulars who plays Serpent spam, play them, then come back when you're better informed.

Did you read my signature?

**Azreal13**

No, I'm on mobile so don't see sigs.

Can't see how it's relevant unless it says "I have already played against Serpent spam repeatedly and don't see the problem?"

**Random Dude**

Well, I don't see a problem with it. I'll say it again, if you have a problem with serpent spam, that's fine. But don't expect me to have one as well just because you do.

**ZebioLizard2**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Space Marine players always tell me that they play the faction because they like the fluff and they like the models, but every Space Marine player I've ever played against always "conveniently" doesn't take the crap units and usually uses the good stuff like bikers, grav-centurions, chapter masters etc.

I guess Space Marines are an OP faction and everyone who plays it is a WAAC TFG sociopath who only plays the faction because it's overpowered.

My personal anecdotes are obviously proof of that. Dur hurr hurr dur.

It might also be that Bikers were actually good in 5th edition as well, same with Chapter Master (Captains, what are those again?). So SM players likely have a few left over.

**extremefreak17**

Swastakowey wrote:

I said most. Not all. I too was once an Eldar Player.

No what I am saying is fluffy isnt wave serpent, wave serpent, wave serpent, knight, bike seer, wave serpent, wave serpent, wave serpent etc.

5 dire avengers in a wave serpent is fine, but 2 squads of 5 in 2 wave serpents is not when you have jetbikes as your other mandatory choice. That is not fluffy. If you want to carry 5 men around in all your transports, invest in falcons as that is fluffy.

Remember common sense should apply to lists. and common sense isnt having 2 transports for 10 men, when 12 can fit into one. For an army famed for its efficiency, that is not fluffy.

If I were an Autarch, and I had a Crack unit of Dire Avengers who needed to stay alive as long as possible in order to capture vital battlefield objectives, common sense would dictate that durability of the transport would be the most important factor when choosing vehicle, not capacity. Another view is that 5 men are half as difficult to train as 10 men, and a Serpent requires less resources to produce than a Falcon. (the lower point cost reflects this). So as an Autarch I am spending less time in training and less resources to accomplish the same goal, to nearly the same effect. For an army famed for its efficiency, that is pretty damn fluffy.

Like I said, the fluff is really open ended. Either way, this is all assuming that every game HAS to be fluffy in the first place. Non-fluffy games do, in fact, exist.

**Swastakowey**

No, that is wrong. Eldar have no resources. They simply grow what they need.

What would be efficient in that situation is for the autarch to use falcons, as the falcon hasnt WASTED space and (in theory) has the fire power that ENHANCES to squads ability. That is efficient.

Less transport space, more fire power. Thats what should be transporting small squads. Points reflect nothing (as evident in the Eldar Codex)

So since the only resource is lives and souls, there is no reason for wasted space and efficiency.

So I disagree.

**extremefreak17**

Swastakowey wrote:
No, that is wrong. Eldar have no resources. They simply grow what they need.

What would be efficient in that situation is for the autarch to use falcons, as the falcon hasnt WASTED space and (in theory) has the fire power that ENHANCES to squads ability. That is efficient.

Less transport space, more fire power. Thats what should be transporting small squads. Points reflect nothing (as evident in the Eldar Codex)

So since the only resource is lives and souls, there is no reason for wasted space and efficiency.

So I disagree.

Psychic energy is also a resource, which the Bonesingers must dip into when creating anything. (such as a tank) Also, using psychic energy to create things is very risky, and very well could cost a soul if there are any unforeseen fluctuations in the warp.
If it did not cost resources to create engines of war, then the true most efficient options would be to field an army of Phantom Titans. This would put the least amount of lives and souls on the battlefield and at the same time provide maximum fire superiority.

**Lshowell**

This is not a topic to talk about the good of eldar, it is for the anti fun of eldar, extremefreak17, random dude, if you guys want to giggle and talk about how 'awesome' you THINK eldar are, make a thread for it. Do not bring it to this thread which is solely about how they are the suck.

On topic, I feel as though if we get lucky and the powers that be here our cries eldar might get needed hard soon. I personally don't mind playing a few people who have eldar armies at my flgs, they run two wraithnknights, but alas, no dumb serpents spam at all.

**Goldphish**

Is this whine fest still going? Its like something new every time books get updated. Yeah Eldar are so terrible to play against because playing against AV13 necrons with 4 flyers, tau with 3+ riptides and 60+ missiles a turn, or the only flavor of space marines in the game, white scars running you down first turn is nothing. Not surprisingly eldar didn't even do that well at the BAO. 4 spots in the top 20? So anti fun.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

MWHistorian wrote:
Paper, rock, scissors, Eldar.

Paper, rock, scissors, Eldar, lizard, Spock.

**Mr Morden**

Goldphish wrote:
Is this whine fest still going? Its like something new every time books get updated. Yeah Eldar are so terrible to play against because playing against AV13 necrons with 4 flyers, tau with 3+ riptides and 60+ missiles a turn, or the only flavor of space marines in the game, white scars running you down first turn is nothing. Not surprisingly eldar didn't even do that well at the BAO. 4 spots in the top 20? So anti fun.

Except that's total rubbish - Many of the most recent codexes did not get the overpowered cheese like the Riptide or the Cheese Serpent - the latter was made even more broken by 7th ed changes.

Broken units spammed help no one - except the most WAAC gamers enjoy life or gaming.

Like I said, the fluff is really open ended. Either way, this is all assuming that every game HAS to be fluffy in the first place. Non-fluffy games do, in fact, exist.

No what he is saying and many others is that some Eldar players exclusively field/ed Wave Serpent/Seer Council spam and say oh yeah its just a fluffy army you should be able to deal with it with your fluffy army - (which is not just spammed OP units) Its called having your cake and eating it.

Now I totally agree - people should be able to field the units they have bought which is why the problem units should be fixed so we can all use them and not feel bad - (or you may not feel bad but your opponents might just give up when they see the spam)

**Savageconvoy**

Lots of armies had access to cheese units though. Or are we not going to count the Heldrake, 2++ rerolling deamons, grav-centurions deathstars, cheap divination psykers for all imperial factions, and IK that every imperial faction has had access to.

It's easier to count armies that didn't get something cheesy. Orks, DA, and Tyranids really didn't get anything that stands out.

**Azreal13**

Savageconvoy wrote:
Lots of armies had access to cheese units though. Or are we not going to count the Heldrake, 2++ rerolling deamons, grav-centurions deathstars, cheap divination psykers for all imperial factions, and IK that every imperial faction has had access to.

It's easier to count armies that didn't get something cheesy. Orks, DA, and Tyranids really didn't get anything that stands out.

Many of the issues with other armies were fixed by 7th or the subsequent FAQs though. Even the worst Tau army got taken out. Serpent spam just kept right in truckin though, unless you want to count the "nerf" to jink, which is essentially just more of a trade off now than it was, and with twin linked everything, still doesn't hurt a Serpent as much as essentially every other skimmer/FMC

**Random Dude**

Lshowell wrote:
This is not a topic to talk about the good of eldar, it is for the anti fun of eldar, extremefreak17, random dude, if you guys want to giggle and talk about how 'awesome' you THINK eldar are, make a thread for it. Do not bring it to this thread which is solely about how they are the suck.

On topic, I feel as though if we get lucky and the powers that be here our cries eldar might get needed hard soon. I personally don't mind playing a few people who have eldar armies at my flgs, they run two wraithnknights, but alas, no dumb serpents spam at all.

My last post was ''I don't have a problem with Serpent Spam" that's it. I didn't realize I am required to share your opinion.

**ZebioLizard2**

Savageconvoy wrote:
Lots of armies had access to cheese units though. Or are we not going to count the Heldrake, 2++ rerolling deamons, grav-centurions deathstars, cheap divination psykers for all imperial factions, and IK that every imperial faction has had access to.

It's easier to count armies that didn't get something cheesy. Orks, DA, and Tyranids really didn't get anything that stands out.

IK aren't that bad, Heldakes didn't let CSM win (They were still rather low on the tourny chart), 2++ daemons is the only comparable faction out of it and even then Eldar Placed higher in the tourny scene.

**Bharring**

Versus 7e, where, despite their buffs, they still lost handily to Marines? What wins in tournies isn't everything. After all, the list the OP faced won't be winning any tournies, but still wasn't fun.

I maintain that, while Eldar are broken right now, most/all factions can put out lists that the OP and others wouldn't enjoy playing against. CSM are considered crap right now, but Raptors + Sorcs would probably have been even worse.

As for an edition when Eldar take it, over half of 6th had them in the same place as BAs. So it wasn't that long ago. I hope the Serpent and Knight get nerfed, but let's not rewrite history.

And the jink nerf definitely hit Serpents harder than Ghost Arks. Not hard enough, certainly, but let's keep things strait.

**Toofast**

I've played against an army with 6 wave serpents, I took out 4 of them. It had 2 wraith knights which were also dead by the end of the game. I play SW which are considered mid tier at best until our new codex comes out. With a list like the OP ran, he would think any competitive list is the anti fun. I'll say it again, IG can deal with eldar better than almost any other army can. If you're an IG player and you get stomped by a bad eldar list like that, you need to seriously reconsider your list. Also, this is a discussion thread. If you want an echo chamber, go somewhere else. Some of us don't play eldar and still think they're cool because we spend our time looking through our codex for answers instead of whining to anyone who will listen about how tough an opponent is.

**Mr Morden**

Bharring wrote:
Versus 7e, where, despite their buffs, they still lost handily to Marines? What wins in tournies isn't everything. After all, the list the OP faced won't be winning any tournies, but still wasn't fun.

I maintain that, while Eldar are broken right now, most/all factions can put out lists that the OP and others wouldn't enjoy playing against. CSM are considered crap right now, but Raptors + Sorcs would probably have been even worse.

As for an edition when Eldar take it, over half of 6th had them in the same place as BAs. So it wasn't that long ago. I hope the Serpent and Knight get nerfed, but let's not rewrite history.

And the jink nerf definitely hit Serpents harder than Ghost Arks. Not hard enough, certainly, but let's keep things strait.

Don't agree - you can no longer alpha strike Serpents - major plus, they only need to jink if shot at - so when spammed all the other ones that did not get shot at are fine - and thats the heart of the issue - one is bad enough - mutiples sap the game of any enjoyment unless you enjoying plying a lopsided game ( which a few people do and then claim to be tactical geniuses) They are a more powerful scoring unit than before. The jink ave - if they have to take it is better than before.

Whilst other armies may be able to put some OP lists - the generic list is not OP and broken - which it is with Eldar - again back to the Original point - sapping the fun from the game.............

It is unfair on those Eldar players who want a decent game that GW made the Serpent borken and then made it the only DT.

**Las**

I would have no problem with serpents if the Shield was a one use weapon and once fired negated the ability to downgrade pens. Aside from this they really are not that scary.

Also perhaps the weapon that makes everything twin linked should not be... twin linked.

**Mr Morden**

Las wrote:
I would have no problem with serpents if the Shield was a one use weapon and once fired negated the ability to downgrade pens. Aside from this they really are not that scary.

Also perhaps the weapon that makes everything twin linked should not be... twin linked.

See thats the issue - they would be fine if they were toned down - but they are not - they are broken.

**Azreal13**

Guardians inexplicably going form BS3 to BS4 compounded the issue too.

Single-linked scatter laser on BS3 giving twin linked to other weapons on a hit is strong, but nowhere near as bad, especially when snap shotting.

**Random Dude**

Just out of curiosity, what were Wave Serpents like in the old Eldar Codex?

**Gwaihirsbrother**

Durable, moderately expensive transports with unremarkable shooting.

**Random Dude**

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Durable, moderately expensive transports with unremarkable shooting.

Didn't they still have pulse lasers and shuriken cannons?