Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I got back into reading the HH series and as I finished "Fear to Tread" it got me thinking about the upcoming Siege of Terra. We have seen in the series the ease in which worlds can be exterminated with the firepower available to the Legion fleets. In Fear to Tread, for example, Sanginius has a world annihilated by a salvo of cyclonic torpedoes from his flagship.

Now with this in mind, I think to the way the Siege is usually depicted and it seems like Horus' forces have space superiority throughout the conflict. The main struggle seems to be keeping the flow of troops and equipment down to the surface but otherwise there is no mention of ongoing fleet battles in orbit. I get the impression Horus swept away all the defenses and his fleet just floated over a Terra. During this time I believe there is even mention of orbital strikes and we know Horus has to keep the shields on his command ship up to avoid damage from ground fire (I assume).

They spent I think it is over a month grinding away at the Imperial defenses before eventually Horus played his "Come at me bro" gambit with the Emperor out of desperation because of the oncoming relief fleets. Why was an exterminatus not carries out on Terra at any stage of the siege? Particularly at the end, when all seems lost, it certainly would be in character for Chaos forces to blow up a planet out of spite. You may say "because Horus didn’t want it" but even if that is so, once he is dead, you don’t think the fleet could have launched a salvo of cyclonic torpedoes as they exited the system. Someone as blood thirsty as Angron wouldn't play that card? Someone as insane as the Nighthaunter wasn't going to do it out of spite? Lorgar to please his gods? Fulgrim who was no longer even human anymore? It has been clearly established that individual legion ships have the capability of carrying out this kind of strike so what was holding them back? If it is the "following orders" thing, well, we have certainly seen how the primarchs of the traitor legions follow their own agendas including blatantly ignoring Horus' commands.

And if we even take it a step further back, say for some reason they did not want to blow Earth up. Why not simply glass Europe? Completely vaporize the Imperial palace and call it a day? No need to bleed your forces against the Palace defenses. The morale blow against the loyalists would be devastating and Horus' forces would be primed to take on any relief fleets coming their way. Clean and simple.

I just don't understand the reasoning here but I admit I am not as well versed in the fluff to know if there was some motivation behind not choosing that alternative.

Dramatic license. The reality of events seems to ebb based on the need for a narrative.

Yes, Horus should have exterminated the planet. There will be some reason he could not do so.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Dramatic license. The reality of events seems to ebb based on the need for a narrative.

Yes, Horus should have exterminated the planet. There will be some reason he could not do so.

Horus needed the Emperor dead. The Imperial Palace is shielded. We already know from Galaxy in Flames that shielded areas are protected from Exterminatus.

Thus, he would need to physically assault the palace anyway. Exterminatus would be useless for what he wanted to do.

I think it might also have something to do with it being the Home world of the human race.

We also see that from Galaxy in Flames that Exterminatus is no sure fire way of killing off the loyalists situated there, especially if they are dug in, or like Platuan4th says, shielded.

There is no armour thicker than plot armour.

With all there sheilds, fortfcations and for lack of better term. Anti air batteries + anti ship weaponry.

It has to be taken from ground, wall by bloody wall.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Dramatic license. The reality of events seems to ebb based on the need for a narrative.

Yes, Horus should have exterminated the planet. There will be some reason he could not do so.

Alpha Legion = The Reason!

Something that occurred to me as I am reading the responses is could they have wanted to capture the protowebway the Emperor is building to serve as a gateway for the Chaos gods? If they control that webway they could create another Eye of Terror and the demons would have the most populous human world from which to feed and do their thing. Still not convinced that is as vital as killing the emperor and winning the heresy.

Exterminatus might be more difficult to implement when the target has significant defences.

Sure, the traitors had space superiority, but that doesn't mean they could do whatever they wanted in orbit. Get close enough for long enough and you risk being hit hard, either from the surface or from a lurking orbital defence unit disguised as space junk. Much better to stay in a wide elliptical orbit where you get just close enough to launch a quick strike every now and then or simply hang in high orbit, waiting for the defences to get worn down by your ground forces. That means that sustained bombardment is going to be difficult (plenty of chances to shoot down your missiles when you see them coming hours in advance) and any given ship is only going to be in position for a short-range strike a small percentage of the time.

That could mean that the traitors didn't have a chance to launch an exterminatus strike while fleeing; all their assets capable of wrecking stuff to that extent were too far away from the planet at the time.

That's assuming they even had any cyclonic torpedoes and so on left by the time they reached Terra. Many of the traitor legions were the least trusted and most badly supported of the Emperor's forces. Would you ever issue cyclonic torpedos to the World Eaters? Those that they did have would likely to get used-up quicker than expected due to the aggressive and callous nature of the chaos legions, who seem likely to use exterminatus tactics a lot more than the loyalists. It might be that Horus' fleet had no capability for exterminatus other than close-range sustained bombardment from low orbit, which they either weren't able to achieve or which didn't do enough to wipe out the defenders (although it would probably have been very bad news for anyone not in a shielded bunker).

Istvaan 3 was Exterminatused yet many of the loyalists survived because they were forewarned and able to hide in bunkers/caves. Terra (by the time Dorn was done with it) was the most heavily fortified planet in the Universe. With all those fortifications and void shields i dont think Exterminatus would have worked, there still would have had to me a massive ground war.

There's a difference between the type of Exterminatus that is targetted at wiping out biological life, like virus bombs or engulfing the planet in a firestorm, and outright blowing the planet apart, which the legions have been shown to have the capacity to do. No amount of localized void shields will protect you from that.

However what stock of those did they have
Left by the end off it. I mean the night loss had to use lasers and such to destroy there planet.

Not every ship carries them and in a rebellion production of such advanced weaponry is far harder.

tgjensen wrote:
There's a difference between the type of Exterminatus that is targetted at wiping out biological life, like virus bombs or engulfing the planet in a firestorm, and outright blowing the planet apart, which the legions have been shown to have the capacity to do. No amount of localized void shields will protect you from that.

Judging by the Rock they will.

Keeping the planet intact means you can invade the Webway afterwards.

Stravo wrote:
Something that occurred to me as I am reading the responses is could they have wanted to capture the protowebway the Emperor is building to serve as a gateway for the Chaos gods? If they control that webway they could create another Eye of Terror and the demons would have the most populous human world from which to feed and do their thing. Still not convinced that is as vital as killing the emperor and winning the heresy.

There was no need to capture it, daemons were already in the webway at that point and the Emperor was holding them back from Terra itself. Killing the Emperor would have opened that portion of the webway and allowed the daemons to pour through to Terra.

tgjensen wrote:
There's a difference between the type of Exterminatus that is targetted at wiping out biological life, like virus bombs or engulfing the planet in a firestorm, and outright blowing the planet apart, which the legions have been shown to have the capacity to do. No amount of localized void shields will protect you from that.

Well it is Terra we are talking about, its possible that the entire planet had/has a powerful void shield around it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Horus' ultimate goal was to depose the Emperor and lead humanity himself.

He believed that the Emperor was just using humanity to further his own ends and in the end would abandon humanity to rot at the hands of xenos and worse.

I believe that Horus wasn't out to destroy the galaxy but to "free" it from the Emperor.

tgjensen wrote:
There's a difference between the type of Exterminatus that is targetted at wiping out biological life, like virus bombs or engulfing the planet in a firestorm, and outright blowing the planet apart, which the legions have been shown to have the capacity to do. No amount of localized void shields will protect you from that.

except they never use it on fortified planets. They didnt use it on the Istvaan V either.

Would the traitors not also wanted to have preserved the Astronomicon?

 Inquisitor Gonzo wrote:
Would the traitors not also wanted to have preserved the Astronomicon?

The Traitors had the benefit of Chaos guiding them through the Warp.

Horus wanted Terra intact, mostly. It's the birthplace of humanity, there's the Imperial Palace and everything else important. Taking it would be a symbol of total victory, wiping it out would mean you have to fight across a thousand thousand worlds to subdue everyone else.

Spetulhu wrote:
Horus wanted Terra intact, mostly. It's the birthplace of humanity, there's the Imperial Palace and everything else important. Taking it would be a symbol of total victory, wiping it out would mean you have to fight across a thousand thousand worlds to sundue everyone else.

this, Horus needed to seize terra and plant himself on the emperor's throne, it would have granted him legitimacy. DESTROYING Terra proably would have been outright counter productive. much of the legitimacy of the Imperium is that it's throne world is the "Cradle world"

BrianDavion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Horus wanted Terra intact, mostly. It's the birthplace of humanity, there's the Imperial Palace and everything else important. Taking it would be a symbol of total victory, wiping it out would mean you have to fight across a thousand thousand worlds to sundue everyone else.

this, Horus needed to seize terra and plant himself on the emperor's throne, it would have granted him legitimacy. DESTROYING Terra proably would have been outright counter productive. much of the legitimacy of the Imperium is that it's throne world is the "Cradle world"

Not this. The legitimacy of the Imperium is not where it's located, but the power it can bring to force compliance.

Horus wasn't going to be able to hold Terra due to the relatively unscathed incoming legions. His forces were barely adequate to take Terra as it was and he certainly wouldn't have been able to fight off the Ultramarines (and others) that were inbound. Assuming Horus still had a cache of Life Eater weapons he should have fired them the moment his forces were orbiting. However, that wouldn't have been good enough. The person of the Emperor had to be crushed by Horus' hand. Otherwise the legitimacy of his rule would have been constantly challenged by the other Primarchs, leading to a much longer war.

Had Horus won at Terra, he would have fled the system in order to preserve his forces. With a regroup, other loyalist forces would be drawn to his banner enabling him to strike the final blow.

It's Terra man. How could you destroy your planet of origin?!

clively wrote:
Not this. The legitimacy of the Imperium is not where it's located, but the power it can bring to force compliance.

Had Horus won at Terra, he would have fled the system in order to preserve his forces. With a regroup, other loyalist forces would be drawn to his banner enabling him to strike the final blow.

But in any case, he had to take Terra somewhat intact so he could personally strike down the Emperor. Exterminatus is a final measure, a heroic personal victory is often more important for anyone looking to gain power. Horus could not because he needed somerthing else than a burning ball of rock.

Reading up on some of the accounts of Exterminatus, it seems that the 'standard' method of 'breaking up' a planet requires identifying and targeting key points in the crust's structure and triggering some kind of massive seismic activity so that the mass of the planet somehow does most of the work.

It seems likely that Terra would have been surveyed to identify such weaknesses and key points protected by void shields or suchlike.

 Alpharius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Dramatic license. The reality of events seems to ebb based on the need for a narrative.

Yes, Horus should have exterminated the planet. There will be some reason he could not do so.

Alpha Legion = The Reason!

I am Alpharius!

Probably because Terra was the most valuable planet.

Horus wasn't fighting a war to destroy the Imperium, he was fighting a war to take it.

clively wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Horus wanted Terra intact, mostly. It's the birthplace of humanity, there's the Imperial Palace and everything else important. Taking it would be a symbol of total victory, wiping it out would mean you have to fight across a thousand thousand worlds to sundue everyone else.

this, Horus needed to seize terra and plant himself on the emperor's throne, it would have granted him legitimacy. DESTROYING Terra proably would have been outright counter productive. much of the legitimacy of the Imperium is that it's throne world is the "Cradle world"

Not this. The legitimacy of the Imperium is not where it's located, but the power it can bring to force compliance.

Horus wasn't going to be able to hold Terra due to the relatively unscathed incoming legions. His forces were barely adequate to take Terra as it was and he certainly wouldn't have been able to fight off the Ultramarines (and others) that were inbound. Assuming Horus still had a cache of Life Eater weapons he should have fired them the moment his forces were orbiting. However, that wouldn't have been good enough. The person of the Emperor had to be crushed by Horus' hand. Otherwise the legitimacy of his rule would have been constantly challenged by the other Primarchs, leading to a much longer war.

Had Horus won at Terra, he would have fled the system in order to preserve his forces. With a regroup, other loyalist forces would be drawn to his banner enabling him to strike the final blow.

not so sure about that.

had horus won at terra, killed the emperor and either killed or forced a retreat of the other loyalist forces/primarchs on terra I think he could have held it.

open up the throne and let the daemons out of the webway. refortify the planet


Sure the ultramarines and dark angels might be coming. But so are the word bearers.
and with the emperor dead, horus becomes the new legitimate ruler, perhaps challenged but signifigant amounts of IG and Admech that would have followed the emperor would have followed whoever controlled earth.

Well take Terra, kill emperor, the great warp beacon dies and impirial forces loyal are not at massive disadvantage as Horus and co can plow the stars with deaom allies to guide them/traitor phsykers.

Loyal fleets now can only do minor warp jumps if that. Heresy good as won due to ability to totally put manoover and destroy them one by one.

 AWesker1976 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Horus' ultimate goal was to depose the Emperor and lead humanity himself.

He believed that the Emperor was just using humanity to further his own ends and in the end would abandon humanity to rot at the hands of xenos and worse.

I believe that Horus wasn't out to destroy the galaxy but to "free" it from the Emperor.

I guess that was his intention when he was still Horus, i am not sure that would happen if he had won, he and his chapters had already been corrupted by chaos so much when he finally reached earth.
Maybe opening the gate to let in the demons was his goal, to turn earth and it's surroundings into a new eye of terror.

It's noted in the Night Lords trilogy that the reason ships don't use exterminatus-level weapons on each other is that they're too easy to shoot down by anti-missile systems.

Cyclonic torpedos, as an example, seem to be pretty massive: http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/qyXDR7EQMKM/hqdefault.jpg