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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

It has already happened, twice in fact. One died to beheading, another in a duel towards the end of the HH. And how many times has Vulkan died now? Probably more times than anyone here cares to remember.

Fyi he said Great Crusade, not Horus Heresy.

The Great Crusade was a time of great success, who cares.

As RedCruisair has explicitly said, he was referring to the HH. Alpharius, Ferrus Manus, Konrad Curze, Sanguinius, and of course Horus died during the heresy and the scouring. Things got very grimdark from there on.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

If it is so easy to kill a Primarch, why did it never happen during the Great Crusade?

For the same reason James Bond or Indiana Jones have not been killed although they've been in countless ridiculously dangerous situations. (Hint: it is not because they're immune to bullets.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

If it is so easy to kill a Primarch, why did it never happen during the Great Crusade?

For the same reason James Bond or Indiana Jones have not been killed although they've been in countless ridiculously dangerous situations. (Hint: it is not because they're immune to bullets.)

My my, disguising subjective interpretations as objective fact now again are we? Naughty Crimson.

 Crimson wrote:

For the same reason James Bond or Indiana Jones have not been killed although they've been in countless ridiculously dangerous situations. (Hint: it is not because they're immune to bullets.)

So rather than a 40k universe where the Primarchs' survival is explained in-universe, you'd prefer it be explained by bad writing?


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 Lord Tarkin wrote:

The Great Crusade was a time of great success, who cares.

As RedCruisair has explicitly said, he was referring to the HH. Alpharius, Ferrus Manus, Konrad Curze, Sanguinius, and of course Horus died during the heresy and the scouring. Things got very grimdark from there on.

All but one of those Primarchs were killed by another Primarch.

At no point did I state or imply that Primarchs couldn't die.


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 Deadshot wrote:

1: You didn't say it blew up on top of him. You said it blew up. Very different situations. Plus, why should a bomb kill him? When he's wearing armour and has that supersuperhuman biology?

Fair enough on the first part, that was poor wording.

As for the second part, how exactly does that help your case that Primarchs being killed by Marines with bolters is consistent with the story? If a few city blocks being destroyed by a bomb can't do it, why can a localized anti-infantry missile do so?

2: That proves nothing of the sort. Like I said, its simple resistance training. Hell of a difference getting shot and a heavy object. Professional strongmen can lift heavy objects such as cars and pull lorries on a rope. But put a few 9mm through their chest and they'll have as much chance as anyone.

The trick with using real-life physics to support your argument is that you have to make sure the analogy works. The reason a bullet can harm even very strong men (And by the way, their impact resistant muscles and bones would give them a better chance of being relatively unharmed than your average joe) is because bullets have a great deal of kinetic energy for their size (1,800 joules for an M16 rifle bullet, compared to, say, the 780 joules of the world record men's shot put throw), and indeed because of their size. All that energy is effecting a very small part of your body, whereas when lifting something about your head it's spread throughout your entire body.

Someone who could lift 10 tons' skeleton and muscles would be probably be virtually immune to a nine millimeter bullet.

Angron stopped a Titan's attack without being killed. Space Marines' in their power armour can even absorb bolter fire, yet if a Titan attacks them in melee or steps on them, they die. Why do you think that is?

Scale that up to 12ft tall Primarchs with supersuperhuman strength. They can lift supersuperheavy objects such as pushing back the Warhound's foot, but put a few dozen extremely large, armour penetrating explosive Bolts in their organs and they'll die like everyone else because their organs are now pulped.

What makes you think Primarchs have conventional organs like humans or even Marines?

Before you scoff at this question, Ahriman outright states that Magnus, his Primarch, had nothing so base as physical organs made of matter within his body, or something to that effect, during the Council of Nkaea.

And you're skipping one crucial step in firing a bolter and killing a Primarch. It has to penetrate his armour, skin, muscle, and bones before it can reach his organs.

3: Is there a difference? He's embracing the source of his psychic powers and gets a buff to his psychic powers and then buffs himself? That sounds about right to me. He only took 1 shot and it wasn't even a full shot. IIRC, the first shot dissipated against a force field he set up. The second broke through and burned him but didn't kill, and it lost some of its energy to break through the shield.

Yeah, the difference is that's his standard level of power right now, lol. And he's still less physically mighty and hardy than Angron.

You say he "only took one shot" but that one shot's power outstrips a bolter by several orders of magnitude. It's inconsistent.


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 Redcruisair wrote:

Maybe McNeil wanted to portray the primarchs in a new light? Who really knows?

I won't know until I read it myself.

No offense to you personally but I learned long ago to not trust what people on Dakka tell me.

I have always interpreted the mountain thing as just a how it looked to the onlookers. The whole event was seen through Loken’s eyes if I recall correctly.
Ultimately it comes down to how you interpreted the fluff. Some think Angron can lift mountains, while others think he was just pure fortunate to escape the trap unharmed.

The narration explicitly says "thousands of tons" and he burst out with enough force to make onlookers think there was another bomb.

It has already happened, twice in fact. One died to beheading, another in a duel towards the end of the HH. And how many times has Vulkan died now? Probably more times than anyone here cares to remember.

Which one is the duel?

Also, which one of those is a death that wasn't to another Primarch?

You also need to consider that ultimately, the primarchs can’t be killed off. Many of them have roles to play later on. How do the authors cope with this? It’s really simple; they put the primarchs in situation where they are in mortal danger of dying. It’s like a flight simulation. Not the real thing, but still close enough.

Okay.

I think an important question to ask oneself is whether we will see a turning point in how the primarchs are portrayed. Personally I think the HH authors, including ADB, are heading towards a more mature approach with their characters, with the primarchs included.

Ah and here it starts.

Why is it more mature? Explain to me, in detail, why Primarchs being weaker is more mature than them being stronger. And then I will explain to you why making Primarchs weaker does nothing to make the stories more mature and that there exist stories with far more powerful characters than the Primarchs that are more mature than anything GW or BL have ever had their hand in.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

So rather than a 40k universe where the Primarchs' survival is explained in-universe, you'd prefer it be explained by bad writing?

Having your main characters not to die before to story even starts is not exactly bad writing. (Granted, having the main character die before the story starts and still make the story work could possibly be brilliant writing.)
It is utterly absurd to conclude that because these guys went to war and didn't die, they must be immune to weapons.

We have now seen a Primarch Threatened by a chainsword and another by bolters. One was killed by a normal assassin. They obviously are not immune to normal weapons. And frankly, cannot fathom why you would want them to be; it diminishes them. An invincible hero is boring as feth. He cannot be brave, because there is no danger to him.

 Crimson wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

So rather than a 40k universe where the Primarchs' survival is explained in-universe, you'd prefer it be explained by bad writing?

Having your main characters not to die before to story even starts is not exactly bad writing. (Granted, having the main character die before the story starts and still make the story work could possibly be brilliant writing.)
It is utterly absurd to conclude that because these guys went to war and didn't die, they must be immune to weapons.

We have now seen a Primarch Threatened by a chainsword and another by bolters. One was killed by a normal assassin. They obviously are not immune to normal weapons. And frankly, cannot fathom why you would want them to be; it diminishes them. An invincible hero is boring as feth. He cannot be brave, because there is no danger to him.

I agree. Very boring and contradictive of 40k's plot

 Crimson wrote:

Having your main characters not to die before to story even starts is not exactly bad writing. (Granted, having the main character die before the story starts and still make the story work could possibly be brilliant writing.)
It is utterly absurd to conclude that because these guys went to war and didn't die, they must be immune to weapons.

No, but plot armour, aka what you asserted to be the direct cause of their survival, is bad writing.

I didn't say they were immune to weapons. Just small-arms fire.

We have now seen a Primarch Threatened by a chainsword and another by bolters. One was killed by a normal assassin. They obviously are not immune to normal weapons. And frankly, cannot fathom why you would want them to be; it diminishes them. An invincible hero is boring as feth. He cannot be brave, because there is no danger to him.

Which one was threatened by a chainsword, and given what context? I mean, forgive me for not trusting you at your word given your track record, considering in the very post I'm quoting you're ignoring that the "normal assassin" killed him with a C'tan Phase Sword. Which can cut through any material (Or could when that was written, anyway).

Yeah? Is that why the character of Achilles, who never lost a single fight and was touted as invincible (And indeed could rout entire armies) is still studied by serious academics to this day? There's more to a character than bravery, and it isn't a prerequisite for being a good character (Also it ignores that there are things in the setting like Greater Daemons that are about as strong as they are so they can still be challenged). I don't like Magnus the Red because he's brave, I like him because he was a very flawed, even tragic character who had the best of intentions but ultimately failed to follow up on them due to his pride, and more to the point because he was denied doing so by Fate itself.

Bravery is but one facet of his personality that barely registers in my enjoyment of him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Having your main characters not to die before to story even starts is not exactly bad writing. (Granted, having the main character die before the story starts and still make the story work could possibly be brilliant writing.)
It is utterly absurd to conclude that because these guys went to war and didn't die, they must be immune to weapons.

No, but plot armour, aka what you asserted to be the direct cause of their survival, is bad writing.

I didn't say they were immune to weapons. Just small-arms fire.

We have now seen a Primarch Threatened by a chainsword and another by bolters. One was killed by a normal assassin. They obviously are not immune to normal weapons. And frankly, cannot fathom why you would want them to be; it diminishes them. An invincible hero is boring as feth. He cannot be brave, because there is no danger to him.

Which one was threatened by a chainsword, and given what context? I mean, forgive me for not trusting you at your word given your track record, considering in the very post I'm quoting you're ignoring that the "normal assassin" killed him with a C'tan Phase Sword. Which can cut through any material (Or could when that was written, anyway).

Yeah? Is that why the character of Achilles, who never lost a single fight and was touted as invincible (And indeed could rout entire armies) is still studied by serious academics to this day? There's more to a character than bravery, and it isn't a prerequisite for being a good character (Also it ignores that there are things in the setting like Greater Daemons that are about as strong as they are so they can still be challenged). I don't like Magnus the Red because he's brave, I like him because he was a very flawed, even tragic character who had the best of intentions but ultimately failed to follow up on them due to his pride, and more to the point because he was denied doing so by Fate itself.

Bravery is but one facet of his personality that barely registers in my enjoyment of him.

You don't trust what anybody on Dakka says, so why are you even here? You're just here to preach the invulnerability of primarchs. I'm sure a primarch could tank quite a few bolt shots but he ain't immune. Gulliman was almost killed by bolters himself.

"This would almost cost the Primarch his life as Thiel and his men revealed themselves to be Alpha Legion assassins and shot Gulliman at point blank range with their bolters, though the Primarch managed to kill all of them before collapsing." -Lexicanum

Quote me saying the Primarchs are invulnerable.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Quote me saying the Primarchs are invulnerable.

"I didn't say they were immune to weapons. Just small-arms fire."

Right here, you are stating primarchs are immune/invulnerable to small-arms fire, which they obviously are not.

Which is a big difference from saying they're invulnerable.

It depends on the fluff you read. Obviously there are instances where it has happened, this discussion was brought up by my comment on it.

But the instance in Betrayer contradicted other showings throughout the book.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Which is a big difference from saying they're invulnerable.

It depends on the fluff you read. Obviously there are instances where it has happened, this discussion was brought up by my comment on it.

But the instance in Betrayer contradicted other showings throughout the book.

Exactly. I would have an easier time agreeing with you if everything wasn't so contradictory, but it is so I am forced to believe in what makes the most sense. I find it hilarious that Lorgar can survive being scorched with plasma yet Guiliman is almost dead because a squad of Alpha Legionaries put a load of bolt rounds in him. It doesn't match at all.

Which legion did these assassins belong to?

Oh right, the one that with the current Forgeworld books has them having Mk6 and early vengeance rounds, the one that isn't bound by dogma in only using Imperium produced stuff, you know .... the Alpha Legion. The group that I'd put money on being able to take down a primarch without being a primarch amped on chaos. Or the random mooks that Rogal Dorn found.

@Void_Dragon, in response to your responses earlier to me.

First off, the reason a bomb couldn't do it and why Bolts could is simple. Not all of the bomb's energy is directed at Angron firstly. Only a part of it is. Most of it would be directed elsewhere in a radius around him. Secondly, the Bolts penetrate and explode inside, so not only is he suffering the effects of the bullet hole but also having his insides take the full force of the shrapnel and explosive force. Presumably his armour has enough protection to dampen enough of the bomb's force to prevent it killing him, along with that superhuman biology to absorb and withstand the explosive *external* force. His organs don't have any protection but their own toughness.

Secondly, the bullet would still kill him if you put twenty or thirty into him. Which is clearly the intention of Russ (hypothetically speaking as it was a demonstration). Put a couple hundred rounds into Angron and he'll die. His armour is solid meaning that each impact weakens its atomic structure. Eventually it'll crack and split open and he'll be filled with rounds and slain.
Thirdly, Marines die to Titan feet because they do not have the physical strength or skeletal strength to withstand that pressure. Same reason normal humans can't lift cars above their heads. Their muscles will tear and their bones shatter before they can. SM can't push back a Titan because their bones would shatter and muscles rip.
Angron's muscles and bones are much more durable as everything ever written about them speaks of how much stronger and faster etc, than a marine they are. Also note that even Angron nearly COULDN'T hold back that Titan for much longer. In the passage, it clearly states (my favourite part of the whole book) that "He (Angron) could feel the bones in his spine and legs begin to splinter and crack..." or something to that effect.


Finally, addressing Lorgar. You know not what his powers could do to him. Why is it not possible for him to buff his physical prowess with his psychic powers? Although game =/= as everyone loves saying, there is the Iron Arm power in the game. The ability to buff exists within the setting, why can't Lorgar use it?
Moving on to the shield...you are trying to calculate an unknown amount of energy being fired from the weapon (A) an unknown amount of energy that penetrated the shield (B) an unknown amount of energy lost between breaking the shield and hitting Lorgar (C)and Lorgar's resistance to that energy damage, also unknown (D) to calculate the actual damage done (E)

So in short and simple terms...
E= A - (B+C+D)

Calculate this for me please?


I'm not saying Angron is going down in a few rounds. But given that each standard marine bolter carries 30 rounds, and there is likely around 10-20 marines surrounded him, thats about 300-600 rounds, assuming all SW reloaded to a full magazine, which I expect they would.


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Also, in reference to the Chainsword bit;

The unprotected skin would be shredded on the throat. Its never been even suggested that Primarch's skin is impervious to harm. Only that they are in battle by a combination of sublime skill and speed and strength and their unmatched armour.

Secondly, the Assassin was of the Callidus temple. Carries a C'tan Phase Sword which are said to kill by a scratch. Plus, the official story goes that Curze knew of the assassin all along, and allowed the inflitration and assassination because he was disgusted at what he had become.


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One last point;

How the hell does Ahriman know what Magnus has inside him? Only the Emperor has any clue what the Primarchs are like inside. Ahriman has no idea, that's nought but his thoughts. He may be right but its his wild guess and nothing more.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The narration explicitly says "thousands of tons"

Sooo... ”thousands of tons” of ruble magically stags on Angron’s head then? Do you think this a likely scenario Void_Dragon? Chances are as I said before that Angron got lucky in escaping the trap. Especially considering how much of a bloody ruined mess Angron was in Betrayer after getting buried for the second time.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
and he burst out with enough force to make onlookers think there was another bomb.

Angron bursting out of the ruins with a force equating an explosion is sing of power, not invulnerability, which is the thing I’m arguing against.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Which one is the duel?

The duel one is Sanguinius.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, which one of those is a death that wasn't to another Primarch?

Well if you believe Curze visions to be accurate, then Dorn is going to get killed by a crazed, sword-wielding mob of chaos marines.

Vulkan died by getting shot in the head by two shuriken pistols. Do those counts as small arms weapons in 40K?

And as I wrote previously - Mortarion almost died to gunship fire and Guilliman to bolter rounds.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ah and here it starts.

Why is it more mature? Explain to me, in detail, why Primarchs being weaker is more mature than them being stronger. And then I will explain to you why making Primarchs weaker does nothing to make the stories more mature and that there exist stories with far more powerful characters than the Primarchs that are more mature than anything GW or BL have ever had their hand in.

I should have worded that differently. “More down to earth” would have been a more fitting description.

The titan would have killed angron if nor for Lorgar you stopped it from smashing him. Then Angron got up and helped.

Angron is the strongest though by a smidge. Manus and Vulkan are right there, and as far as I know Ferrus Manus has no augmetics at all. Even his metal hands aren't an augmetic.


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 Lord Tarkin wrote:
"Because he's a primarch" haha, I laugh at that. I am straight laughing on the floor.

He is a 10 ft tall 1,500 lbs man (without armour) and he cannot lift a 300 ton hulk of metal.

Yes, I said "man." He is indeed flesh and sinew and he must obey the laws of physics. Don't give me that ridiculous warp nonsense, he cannot do it.

Read Betrayer because you're making a fool out of yourself in this thread, and Angron is the strongest. Some books say Manus or Vulkan could match him but most just say Angron is hands down the strongest.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

Powerguy wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ferrus would be stronger only because he is more machine than he is flesh

Um Ferrus wasn't largely bionics or anything like that. He had metal (well technically Necrodermis) hands, but was otherwise flesh and blood like the rest of the primarchs. His legion were the ones who were heavily into bionics (partially to simulate his metal hands), and that only became their dominate practice after his death.

Anyway, even ignoring the whole 'primarchs are magic superheroes who can do what they want' side of things, Angron holding up a Warhound's foot is that implausible imo. First of all, its a Warhound not a Warlord like some people seem to think, its the smallest Titan around and is no bigger than something like a Baneblade (which Vulkan was more than capable of pushing around, so a Primarch moving a something that big around is not unprecedented). Secondly he was only holding one foot up, he didn't lift the entire thing up by its waist so it wasn't carrying the entire weight. Given the size and construction of Titans I think its pretty safe to assume that they don't sprint around (even moreso in this context as it was a restrictive urban environment) i.e they are walking, which means the other foot is still on the ground and carrying most of the weight. When you read that sequence it is mostly made to sound like Angron is fighting the power from the servos and machinery that is trying to get the leg to straighten rather than the weight of the entire titan.

That actually makes the feat more impressive.

It was running to crush Lorgar and Angron caught it.

He'd have been dealing with over a thousand tons of force.

No it was running to crush Angron and Lorgar caught it. Then when Lorgar could barely hold it anymore Angron picked his injured body up and went and to the load from Lorgar and tossed the thin over


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 ThePrimordial wrote:
A lot of newcomers here, huh?
Well to answer your question no Custodes don't come close.
You could send all ten thousand Custodes against Angron and they would likely lose due to astronomical speed strength and skill differences. Send them against Magnus and he stops time and eviscerates them all at once.
Primarchs are the single most devastating thing you could ever come across, discounting starships.
In the case of the Daemon Primarchs Imperators present little threat in comparison.

No they couldn't take all ten thousand. Dorn was killed by simple Astartes

jakejackjake wrote:

Read Betrayer because you're making a fool out of yourself in this thread, and Angron is the strongest. Some books say Manus or Vulkan could match him but most just say Angron is hands down the strongest.

If I recall correctly many books have people saying Angron is one of the greatest Primarchs in (personal) combat. Manus and Vulkan, however, are physically stronger. They might not win in a fight but they'd be able to lift greater weights.

No they couldn't take all ten thousand. Dorn was killed by simple Astartes

It was never said what exactly Dorn was killed by (if indeed he was). Could have been cultists, normal or possessed Chaos Space Marines, an army of daemonhosts. He could have been injured before anyone attacked him with a blade; they could have used daemon weapons. We don't know.

All that is assuming Curze's vision is actually true.

 Deadshot wrote:
@Void_Dragon, in response to your responses earlier to me.

First off, the reason a bomb couldn't do it and why Bolts could is simple. Not all of the bomb's energy is directed at Angron firstly. Only a part of it is. Most of it would be directed elsewhere in a radius around him.

Depends on how close he was to ground zero, which I'll admit I don't know.

Secondly, the Bolts penetrate and explode inside, so not only is he suffering the effects of the bullet hole but also having his insides take the full force of the shrapnel and explosive force. Presumably his armour has enough protection to dampen enough of the bomb's force to prevent it killing him, along with that superhuman biology to absorb and withstand the explosive *external* force. His organs don't have any protection but their own toughness.

Which is still superhuman, inertia would dictate that his organs would have to be super tough to take building-shattering blows and not be pulped inside of him. It's the same principle as a mace hitting a man in armour, the armour is more or less fine but the person below just had his arm broken.

Secondly, the bullet would still kill him if you put twenty or thirty into him. Which is clearly the intention of Russ (hypothetically speaking as it was a demonstration). Put a couple hundred rounds into Angron and he'll die. His armour is solid meaning that each impact weakens its atomic structure. Eventually it'll crack and split open and he'll be filled with rounds and slain.

If a single bullet does no damage, how much damage do you imagine thirty will do? 30 X 0 = 0.

Thirdly, Marines die to Titan feet because they do not have the physical strength or skeletal strength to withstand that pressure. Same reason normal humans can't lift cars above their heads. Their muscles will tear and their bones shatter before they can. SM can't push back a Titan because their bones would shatter and muscles rip.

Now we're getting somewhere.

How is withstanding pressure not a showing of durability?

Angron's muscles and bones are much more durable as everything ever written about them speaks of how much stronger and faster etc, than a marine they are. Also note that even Angron nearly COULDN'T hold back that Titan for much longer. In the passage, it clearly states (my favourite part of the whole book) that "He (Angron) could feel the bones in his spine and legs begin to splinter and crack..." or something to that effect.

So what you're saying is that because his muscles and bones are so durable he could withstand it? So he's durable enough to do so, and it's a showing of durability?

You'll also note that Angron was already very tired and badly wounded beforehand, being a bloodied mess before he even touched the Titan.

Finally, addressing Lorgar. You know not what his powers could do to him. Why is it not possible for him to buff his physical prowess with his psychic powers? Although game =/= as everyone loves saying, there is the Iron Arm power in the game. The ability to buff exists within the setting, why can't Lorgar use it?

It's possible, but we didn't see him do it. He just used a Kine shield. Lorgar himself doesn't seem to make much use of biomancy like his brother Magnus does (Though Magnus can use all the disciplines) that I can recall.

Moving on to the shield...you are trying to calculate an unknown amount of energy being fired from the weapon (A) an unknown amount of energy that penetrated the shield (B) an unknown amount of energy lost between breaking the shield and hitting Lorgar (C)and Lorgar's resistance to that energy damage, also unknown (D) to calculate the actual damage done (E)

So in short and simple terms...
E= A - (B+C+D)

Calculate this for me please?

Valid point, but I know one thing: It did more damage than taking a power fist wielded by Guilliman to his chest.

I'm not saying Angron is going down in a few rounds. But given that each standard marine bolter carries 30 rounds, and there is likely around 10-20 marines surrounded him, thats about 300-600 rounds, assuming all SW reloaded to a full magazine, which I expect they would.

This relies on a couple assumptions. One is that Angron (Who wasn't badly injured) stands there and doesn't begin ripping into the surrounding Space Wolves. Another is that bolt rounds have even a good chance of hurting Angron, much less killing him (Considering his armour and toughness, and what he's survived, they aren't doing much more than scratch damage).

I'll admit that a bolter can potentially wound a Primarch, even with the high-end showings in Betrayer (And only Betrayer, with other stories it varies as I said), but does it have any good chance to kill? Nah, not really.

The very notion of Primarchs being killed by a small group of Marines in particular becomes ridiculous once one realizes that they are peers and actually quite a bit stronger than most Greater Daemons.

Also, in reference to the Chainsword bit;

The unprotected skin would be shredded on the throat. Its never been even suggested that Primarch's skin is impervious to harm. Only that they are in battle by a combination of sublime skill and speed and strength and their unmatched armour.

No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?

Secondly, the Assassin was of the Callidus temple. Carries a C'tan Phase Sword which are said to kill by a scratch. Plus, the official story goes that Curze knew of the assassin all along, and allowed the inflitration and assassination because he was disgusted at what he had become.

Yes, I'm aware, and that's why I always shoot down people using that as some proof of Primarch weakness. There isn't a thing in the setting which can take a C'Tan Phase Sword without being injured. Except a C'tan, I mean.

One last point;

How the hell does Ahriman know what Magnus has inside him? Only the Emperor has any clue what the Primarchs are like inside. Ahriman has no idea, that's nought but his thoughts. He may be right but its his wild guess and nothing more.

Magnus could have been wounded at some point? He could have spoken to the Apothecaries?

I mean, there's a precedence for this. Fabius Bile is intimately aware of Fulgrim's body and its inner workings.


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 Redcruisair wrote:

Sooo... ”thousands of tons” of ruble magically stags on Angron’s head then? Do you think this a likely scenario Void_Dragon? Chances are as I said before that Angron got lucky in escaping the trap. Especially considering how much of a bloody ruined mess Angron was in Betrayer after getting buried for the second time.

Yes, I think that Angron throwing thousands of tons of rubble off of his head is far more likely than your baseless speculation because the text actually states as much.

Angron bursting out of the ruins with a force equating an explosion is sing of power, not invulnerability, which is the thing I’m arguing against.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Angron hitting the debris with that much force imparts that same force upon his very body. That's what some of you guys need to realize. His body withstood thousands of tons of force (More actually, to be able to send all that debris flying like a bomb).

The duel one is Sanguinius.

Killed by Horus with the full backing of the Chaos Gods.

Well if you believe Curze visions to be accurate, then Dorn is going to get killed by a crazed, sword-wielding mob of chaos marines.

Could be. We'll see.

Vulkan died by getting shot in the head by two shuriken pistols. Do those counts as small arms weapons in 40K?

Nah, it does count as a fairly weak showing for a Primarch though considering Angron was routinely taking Shuriken weapons to the face in The Butcher's Nails and barely noticed.

And as I wrote previously - Mortarion almost died to gunship fire and Guilliman to bolter rounds.

Haven't read either instance. Context?

A gunship though? What kind of gunship? Because I do recall him taking plasma salvos in Horus Heresy: Betrayal, though that may be anecdotal.

I should have worded that differently. “More down to earth” would have been a more fitting description.

All right, fair enough if your wording was accidental.

Why should they be down to earth though? I mean, are Greater Daemons going to be brought down to earth with them?

I will respond in full later on, as I'm quite bust right now, but the major thing that stands out for me is Fulgrim and Fabius vs Magnus and Ahriman.

Fabius knows Fulgrim's biology intimately because he was allowed to personally disect, study (and remake in grotesque forms) both Astartes and Fulgrim himself. He studied it for years to learn the secrets. Ahriman may have taken a glance inside at one point. As he is a psyker looking at a being forged from Warp and a powerful psyker himself, Ahriman is not a reliable source, as he may have been affected and his vision altered.

Secondly, Primarchs recover from 99% of wounds within days at most. That's why it was an even bigger shock when Horus was laid low, that he couldn't heal it. Magnus would never need an Apothecary, between that and his powers.

Could be, but you're still throwing out the only in-universe statement (That I know of) on the subject.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yes, I think that Angron throwing thousands of tons of rubble off of his head is far more likely than your baseless speculation because the text actually states as much.

I never claimed Angron, or any other Primarch for that matter, to be incapable of such strong feats. I thought I had already made that clear to you.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Angron hitting the debris with that much force imparts that same force upon his very body. That's what some of you guys need to realize. His body withstood thousands of tons of force (More actually, to be able to send all that debris flying like a bomb).

HH is fantasy-setting set in space. You of all people should know better than using science to explain in-universe events in novels about toy soldiers.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
His body withstood thousands of tons of force

Do we know for sure if those thousand tons of ruble all landed on Angron? Surely a large portion of could have been dispersed across the field, instead solely on Angron, right? You and I are both making assumptions here my friend.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
More actually, to be able to send all that debris flying like a bomb).

Or, you know, he could have used an actual bomb to blow himself free. That could explain why Angron in ‘Betrayer’ didn’t burst out of the ground like a carrot on steroids, but rather he had to dig himself free of the roble.

Also, Angron was visibly a bloody and ruined mess after digging himself free in ‘Betrayer.’ Why do you object so much to me bringing up the possibility that, Angron could just have been plain lucky in escaping unharmed the first time around, especially considering how hurt he was the second time it happened?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Haven't read either instance. Context?

A gunship though? What kind of gunship? Because I do recall him taking plasma salvos in Horus Heresy: Betrayal, though that may be anecdotal.

Mortarion was brought low and nearly killed by a Fire Raptor. It shredded him with “explosives high-reactive bolts.” Horus noted how the Fire Raptors were really deadly gunships.

As for Guilliman, he was assaulted in a closed off room by ten space marines, all armed with bolters and combat-blades. Guilliman was unarmed, and if I recall correctly, clad in ceremonial armor, which was pretty useless in terms of protection. He was brought low by bolter shots, though not before killing most of his assailants. The last one had positioned himself behind Guilliman and had his blade on the primarch’s throat. Guilliman would have been dead if it wasn’t because the guy with the blade did a Kor Phaeron.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Why should they be down to earth though? I mean, are Greater Daemons going to be brought down to earth with them?

I can’t answer this question other than it ultimately boils down personal preference. Better it would be for you to read the novels ‘Vengeful Spirit’ and ‘Unremembered Empire,’ and then compare them to the previous works yourself.

I can however give you an example of what I like about the new approach with the primarchs, if you would want me to. Maybe that would explain it better?

 RileyJessup wrote:
Well....Angron is the strongest of the primarchs. except for maybe sanq.

Angron > Sanguinius every day of the week.


Also, the Custodes are like "Astartes +1," so they couldn't kill a primarch in single comabat, but 5 Custodes could kill 20 Astartes. With respect to rank Pre-Heresy, they did have Authority over the Primarchs.

Emps> Custodes > Primarchs > Astartes and the rest of the command chain. I am curious about whether Custodes or Grey Knights are more powerful, or are Grey knights and Custodes the same thing? sans the part about being psykers.

 Powerfisting wrote:

 RileyJessup wrote:
Well....Angron is the strongest of the primarchs. except for maybe sanq.

Angron > Sanguinius every day of the week.

Depends. Well for a start, Manus and Vulkan are both stated to be the most physically powerful in terms of benching power, and it makes sense since these guys are both metalworkers at home. More Vulkan due to Manus' metal hands and metalshaping powers but still.

Secondly, Sanguinius is suggested to have been of only 2 Primarchs capable of besting Angron 1v1. The other being Horus because Horus. Sangy was a masterful swordsman, a fierce, swift and elegant fighter and have wings and powerful weaponry like the Spear of Telesto.

Horus>Angron>Sanguinus>Fulgrim/Russ/Lion/?Vulkan?

No way in hell is Angron better than Horus. Even with the Forgeworld rules, Horus tears The Red Angel apart. Horus was the chosen. Chaos follow might, and it took one hell of a warrior to get eight legions behind him. If any of the other primarchs fought the Emperor, they would get raped.
I'm almost tempted to put Sanguinus above Angron, because Horus thought he was the best. But, Angron is the "Undefeated" and has the second best rules combat wise.
Fulgrim speaks for himself. Two primarch kills is no joke. Fulgrim haters will say it was the Laer blade, etc. The dude was a master swordsman.
Russ/Lion is where it gets hard. Both described as great warriors, but aren't at the top of the ladder.
Vulkan is weird because he is immortal, but has no primarch kills or resounding praise.

sonsofhorus627 wrote:
Horus>Angron>Sanguinus>Fulgrim/Russ/Lion/?Vulkan?

No way in hell is Angron better than Horus. Even with the Forgeworld rules, Horus tears The Red Angel apart. Horus was the chosen. Chaos follow might, and it took one hell of a warrior to get eight legions behind him. If any of the other primarchs fought the Emperor, they would get raped.
I'm almost tempted to put Sanguinus above Angron, because Horus thought he was the best. But, Angron is the "Undefeated" and has the second best rules combat wise.
Fulgrim speaks for himself. Two primarch kills is no joke. Fulgrim haters will say it was the Laer blade, etc. The dude was a master swordsman.
Russ/Lion is where it gets hard. Both described as great warriors, but aren't at the top of the ladder.
Vulkan is weird because he is immortal, but has no primarch kills or resounding praise.

Um, Fulgrim only killed Ferrus. Gulliman is still alive.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
@Void_Dragon, in response to your responses earlier to me.

First off, the reason a bomb couldn't do it and why Bolts could is simple. Not all of the bomb's energy is directed at Angron firstly. Only a part of it is. Most of it would be directed elsewhere in a radius around him.

Depends on how close he was to ground zero, which I'll admit I don't know.

The further away he gets the less damage it will do.

Secondly, the Bolts penetrate and explode inside, so not only is he suffering the effects of the bullet hole but also having his insides take the full force of the shrapnel and explosive force. Presumably his armour has enough protection to dampen enough of the bomb's force to prevent it killing him, along with that superhuman biology to absorb and withstand the explosive *external* force. His organs don't have any protection but their own toughness.

Which is still superhuman, inertia would dictate that his organs would have to be super tough to take building-shattering blows and not be pulped inside of him. It's the same principle as a mace hitting a man in armour, the armour is more or less fine but the person below just had his arm broken.

No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?

Guilliman's throat is torn wide open, with arterial spray frozen in mid-air within the stasis field they keep him in, torrents of it cascading down his breastplate.

They've got Dorn's hands in a box.

Ferrus lost both of his hands.

Fulgrim nailed his... Personal Primarch... to a board.

... Primarch flesh is far, far away from "nigh-invulnerable". Tougher than any human? Yes. Tougher than a regular Space Marine? Yes. Nigh-Invulnerable? Not even close.

 Psienesis wrote:

No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?

Guilliman's throat is torn wide open, with arterial spray frozen in mid-air within the stasis field they keep him in, torrents of it cascading down his breastplate.

They've got Dorn's hands in a box.

Ferrus lost both of his hands.

Fulgrim nailed his... Personal Primarch... to a board.

... Primarch flesh is far, far away from "nigh-invulnerable". Tougher than any human? Yes. Tougher than a regular Space Marine? Yes. Nigh-Invulnerable? Not even close.

Just to reiterate, this is Void_Dragon's opinion. The quotes are messed up.

 Psienesis wrote:

No, I'm pretty sure that it's suggested that Primarch flesh is nigh-invulnerable, much like the Greater Daemons they regularly beat the gak out of. Do you believe Primarchs are more frail than Greater Daemons? Could you see a Marine with a chainsword killing one so easily?

Guilliman's throat is torn wide open, with arterial spray frozen in mid-air within the stasis field they keep him in, torrents of it cascading down his breastplate.

They've got Dorn's hands in a box.

Ferrus lost both of his hands.

Fulgrim nailed his... Personal Primarch... to a board.

... Primarch flesh is far, far away from "nigh-invulnerable". Tougher than any human? Yes. Tougher than a regular Space Marine? Yes. Nigh-Invulnerable? Not even close.

Ferrus also lost his head, literally.

There was that, too.