Adeptus Custodes

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**Lord Tarkin**

Ashiraya wrote:
I did not say they are the same thing.

I just broke it down to be more understandable.

Another way to say it would be that 'You have proven that all Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers are psykers. Now please provide evidence that this goes for all sorcerers.'

you are soooo difficult, believe what you want, I'm done arguing with you.

**Ashiraya**

You know, if you have no evidence, acknowledging it instead of insulting the opposition will not make you look worse.

I am 'difficult'? Well, sorry for asking for evidence, then. I guess.

**Lord Tarkin**

Ashiraya wrote:
You know, if you have no evidence, acknowledging it instead of insulting the opposition will not make you look worse.

You have no evidence either.

**Psienesis**

Evidence was provided. You chose to ignore it.

**Lord Tarkin**

Psienesis wrote:
Evidence was provided. You chose to ignore it.

Alright, paste a link of it.

**Ashiraya**

Psienesis wrote:
Easiest to acquire would be FFG's "Disciples of the Dark Gods" and "The Radical's Handbook" that detail the rules for Sorcery. While I don't generally like to use FFG's stuff as references, it's simply the easiest and most-readily-available reference.

Also would be the second and third Ravenor novels, where there's a daemonhost with some non-Psychic allies who are using the language "Enuncia" (this, itself, is a reference to "Enochian", an occult language of the real world that is, supposedly, the language of Angels) to blow things up and make people (and daemons) die by shouting at them.

There was Fus Ro Dah in 40k before there ever was a Skyrim.

In the 3rd Ravenor book, when the whole situation with Slyte is going down, the wealthy merchant who's been orchestrating the whole thing has at his disposal a wide array of sorcerous artifacts, some described of his own creation, but because he is not a psyker, he has not registered to Ravenor's psychic "sensor sweeps" for such things, despite having been in the Inquisitor's presence a few times during the series.

Here you go. Ravenor and FFG, all of which are canon.

**Lord Tarkin**

Ashiraya wrote:
You know, if you have no evidence, acknowledging it instead of insulting the opposition will not make you look worse.

I am 'difficult'? Well, sorry for asking for evidence, then. I guess.

Yeah, says a person who actually posted a thread in off-topic instructing how to discretely post aggresive responses to people.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ashiraya wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Easiest to acquire would be FFG's "Disciples of the Dark Gods" and "The Radical's Handbook" that detail the rules for Sorcery. While I don't generally like to use FFG's stuff as references, it's simply the easiest and most-readily-available reference.

Also would be the second and third Ravenor novels, where there's a daemonhost with some non-Psychic allies who are using the language "Enuncia" (this, itself, is a reference to "Enochian", an occult language of the real world that is, supposedly, the language of Angels) to blow things up and make people (and daemons) die by shouting at them.

There was Fus Ro Dah in 40k before there ever was a Skyrim.

In the 3rd Ravenor book, when the whole situation with Slyte is going down, the wealthy merchant who's been orchestrating the whole thing has at his disposal a wide array of sorcerous artifacts, some described of his own creation, but because he is not a psyker, he has not registered to Ravenor's psychic "sensor sweeps" for such things, despite having been in the Inquisitor's presence a few times during the series.

Here you go. Ravenor and FFG, all of which are canon.

No, don't just tell me the sites, post a link providing the information you claim.

**Psienesis**

Since there is no online version of the Ravenor books cited, that's not possible. At least, not within the permissions of Dakka's forum rules.

As with anything else, however, there's the info. If you're not willing to go check it out, then that's your problem.

**Ashiraya**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
You know, if you have no evidence, acknowledging it instead of insulting the opposition will not make you look worse.

I am 'difficult'? Well, sorry for asking for evidence, then. I guess.

Yeah, says a person who actually posted a thread in off-topic instructing how to discretely post aggresive responses to people.

It was a joke thread. It was a thread that would work on my realm forum. Yes, it did not work on Dakka and I recognise that, but it was not designed with malicious intent, and it is unrelated to my posts on this topic.

I have had to repeat this twice now and I still do not see how it discredits my posts in this thread.

**Lord Tarkin**

Psienesis wrote:
Since there is no online version of the Ravenor books cited, that's not possible. At least, not within the permissions of Dakka's forum rules.

As with anything else, however, there's the info. If you're not willing to go check it out, then that's your problem.

It's not even on the internet? How reliable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ashiraya wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
You know, if you have no evidence, acknowledging it instead of insulting the opposition will not make you look worse.

I am 'difficult'? Well, sorry for asking for evidence, then. I guess.

Yeah, says a person who actually posted a thread in off-topic instructing how to discretely post aggresive responses to people.

It was a joke thread. It was a thread that would work on my realm forum. Yes, it did not work on Dakka and I recognise that, but it was not designed with malicious intent, and it is unrelated to my posts on this topic.

I have had to repeat this twice now and I still do not see how it discredits my posts in this thread.

Yeah, whatever you say.

I won't believe a word you say until you provide a link detailing your argument.

**Ashiraya**

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ravenor_(Novel_Series)#.U-5qUPl_t8E

Here is the link. Feel free to go check the books out.

Implying that because you can't find the text anywhere (Which would break copyright laws for that matter) on the internet it is discredited as an argument really is grasping for straws.

**Lord Tarkin**

In case anyone is unaware, you are in the 40k background thread which is dedicated to serious 40k fluff discussion, not personal beliefs and headcannon. If you can't back up your argument than I am not obliged to agree.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ashiraya wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ravenor_(Novel_Series)#.U-5qUPl_t8E

Here is the link. Feel free to go check the books out.

Implying that because you can't find the text anywhere (Which would break copyright laws for that matter) on the internet it is discredited as an argument really is grasping for straws.

Mhm, again, very unreliable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
No hard feelings though.

**Psienesis**

In case anyone is unaware, you are in the 40k background thread which is dedicated to serious 40k fluff discussion, not personal beliefs and headcannon. If you can't back up your argument than I am not obliged to agree.

In case you weren't aware, all 40K canon is headcanon. I provided you with a link from Gav Thorpe that explains that in detail.

**Lord Tarkin**

Psienesis wrote:
In case anyone is unaware, you are in the 40k background thread which is dedicated to serious 40k fluff discussion, not personal beliefs and headcannon. If you can't back up your argument than I am not obliged to agree.

In case you weren't aware, all 40K canon is headcanon. I provided you with a link from Gav Thorpe that explains that in detail.

That means all the time we have sat here debating has been a vain waste of time. Thank you very much.

**Psienesis**

Well, Im at work, so I get paid either way, so it's not really a waste of my time, I would not otherwise be doing anything productive.

But, otherwise, yes. Basically, for any of the finer points of 40K fluff, almost any concept or belief has support somewhere for its existence. *Most* people have a "order of canonicity" that they use, with GW-published works (like Codices) overriding BL novels which override 3rd party products (like FFG)... but that is simply personal preference.

**Lord Tarkin**

Psienesis wrote:
Well, Im at work, so I get paid either way, so it's not really a waste of my time, I would not otherwise be doing anything productive.

But, otherwise, yes. Basically, for any of the finer points of 40K fluff, almost any concept or belief has support somewhere for its existence. *Most* people have a "order of canonicity" that they use, with GW-published works (like Codices) overriding BL novels which override 3rd party products (like FFG)... but that is simply personal preference.

Whatever then, go by your own preference and I'll go by mine.

**Redcruisair**

Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.

**Lord Tarkin**

Redcruisair wrote:
Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.

I had no idea those two were sorcerers.....clarify?

**Deadshot**

Redcruisair wrote:
Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.

The Chaos Gods gave them gifts and powers. They do it all the time.

**Redcruisair**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Redcruisair wrote:
Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.

I had no idea those two were sorcerers.....clarify?

Erebus was the first chaplain of the Word Bearers legion. Kor Phaeron was first captain of the Word Bearers legion. Each of them possessed a copy of the Book of Lorgar, a book used for occult rituals and sorcery.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:
The Chaos Gods gave them gifts and powers. They do it all the time.

I haven’t read anything about the chaos gods bestowing them with psychic potential.
I know psychic powers can be achieved through a myriad of ways, but I doubt that is the case with Erebus and Phaeron. We know they perform their sorcery through the use of the Book of Lorgar.

**Deadshot**

Redcruisair wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Redcruisair wrote:
Given that we have two major HH characters currently using sorcery without having any obvious psychic potential, those two being Erebus and Kor Phaeron. I think is pretty safe to conclude that being a psyker is not a requirement for using sorcery. As Psienesis previously stated, psychics and sorcery are two separate ways of preforming space magic in 40K.

I had no idea those two were sorcerers.....clarify?

Erebus was the first chaplain of the Word Bearers legion. Kor Phaeron was first captain of the Word Bearers legion. Each of them possessed a copy of the Book of Lorgar, a book used for occult rituals and sorcery.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:
The Chaos Gods gave them gifts and powers. They do it all the time.

I haven’t read anything about the chaos gods bestowing them with psychic potential.
I know psychic powers can be achieved through a myriad of ways, but I doubt that is the case with Erebus and Phaeron. We know they perform their sorcery through the use of the Book of Lorgar.

A book written by an extremely powerful psyker who is also the foremost professor of Chaos? And its not easy for him to imbue the text with psychic energy so any old chump can make it work with faith?

**the ancient**

Who has also screwed humanity out of, everything.

Well thats how most mages work in warhammer.
Read a book... raise the dead. Throw a rune... raise the dead.

Hahaha Lorgar is butters. Lil bitch. The gods are taking turns.

Having said that i think ive got a copy of the necronomicon somewhere. Klaatu barada nirfta.

**Redcruisair**

Deadshot wrote:
A book written by an extremely powerful psyker.

This is irrelevant.

Deadshot wrote:
who is also the foremost professor of Chaos?

This is important. The Book of Lorgar is about the occult, rituals and the Primordial Truth. It’s a bible for the chaos worshipper.

Deadshot wrote:
And its not easy for him to imbue the text with psychic energy so any old chump can make it work with faith?

Many thousands of copies of the Book of Lorgar where made. Did Lorgar imbue all thousands of them with his psychic powers? Can he even imbue items with his psychic power? Nothing in HH series support your theory I’m afraid.

Besides, Lorgar first made use of his psychic powers on Isstvan V when Corax was slaughtering his Gal Vorbak. At that point the Book of Lorgar was already completed.

**Void__Dragon**

Redcruisair wrote:

Besides, Lorgar first made use of his psychic powers on Isstvan V when Corax was slaughtering his Gal Vorbak.

Not true, that was when he mastered his use of them. Even before that he was still a psyker. He himself was able to telepathically alter and devour the astropathic messages sent by the Custodians' Astropath.

It's also worth noting that, when Lorgar left, it fell to Xaphen(sp?) to use sorcery and rituals to do the same thing. Xaphen wasn't a sorcerer.

Sorcerers aren't necessarily psykers.

**Psienesis**

A book written by an extremely powerful psyker who is also the foremost professor of Chaos? And its not easy for him to imbue the text with psychic energy so any old chump can make it work with faith?

That would be the very definition of Sorcery, as far as 40K is concerned. Manipulation of the Warp and the production of quantifiable effects via the Immaterium, by the actions of a non-psyker actor. It doesn't matter that Lorgar is a psyker, if anyone with the will can pick up a copy of his book at the local occult and heresy shop, chant some words and summon a Bloodletter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
More importantly, psychic abilities are not spells. There's no chanting or hand-waving or material components required. The psyker just thinks about doing a thing, and they do it (assuming that thing is something the Psyker has talents in, like telepathy or telekinesis or divination or whatever). You don't study the words of ancient books in candle-lit towers over storm-tossed oceans to "learn" how to be a psyker, it's a genetic trait that you either have or you don't.