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 tgmoore wrote:
First week? Hell it hasn't even been 72 hrs and folks are getting awful antsy thinking they are going to get ripped off. This is especially ridiculous as no one has spent a red cent. You can cancel your pledge at the last second of the last day.

So my question, are other Kickstarter campaign threads on Dakka usually this negative?

Yeah, yeah they are. Go check out the robotech KS thread if you want to really see some good stuff.

That being said, its good to get both sides of the story, and Mantic has its fair share of fans on Dakka (even some of these guys being negative). I have my money in right now, but some of these other guys bring up interesting points as well. Talking about the KS is half the fun!

questions/criticism =/= negativity and/or 'hate'

Mantic's got a spotty track record on various things, but then, I guess every company does!

If you read the posts on Dakka when Kickstarters of this nature just started they were almost universally positive and everyone was enamored with the discounts and the ability for new companies to enter into the market. However, as more Kickstarters have either failed to delivery the quality they promised, and almost never on time, I think people have started looking at these things with a more cautious/negative mindset.

The fact is Kickstarter comes with a lot of risk to the buyer. It's essentially a preorder for an unseen product that probably won't be shipped for a year. To make that risk more palatable people have rightly demanded a lot of potential value and as many detail about the finished product as possible (ie. sculpts of miniatures, alpha rules, etc).

Live Dungeon Saga Q&A w/ Ronnie and Jake starting now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4kSBHlrIG8&feature=youtu.be

Live chat with Jake and Ronnie starting right about as this is posted. http://quirkworthy.com/2014/08/06/dungeon-sagas-live-discussion/

Whoops. Always preview.

 tgmoore wrote:
So my question, are other Kickstarter campaign threads on Dakka usually this negative?

Well, since DS is a boardgame, I can speak for BGG.

I've followed various miniatures boardgames and can say that DS and Dark Darker Darkest are the *only* two boardgames I've seen that had these complaints of the miniatures being put back into the box. With DDD, the designer discussed the game on BGG, and made the mistake of not warning us that some of the miniatures previewed were going to be SG's. Queen Games, the publisher of DDD, made a few other bad decisions (like offering a "free" Eurogame in an Ameritrash KS) which made things worse. With DS, not only was it obvious that we weren't shown the retail product, but that it wasn't a $100 value. With pretty much every other boardgame, backers started with the base set. By not showing the backers the base set or its MSRP (even though, by the end of the campaign, this doesn't really matter), Mantic introduces uncertainty, so backers have less information to make a judgement about value.



What else... while Myth showed us the base game, its $100 level of the base game and an exclusive figure did not have value until the stretch goals piled up.



So... DS has the front like DDD and is promising the tail of Myth. 25 days to go!

ced1106 wrote:


So... DS has the front like DDD and is promising the tail of Myth. 25 days to go!

Haaaaaaaaa. If you think anyone can 'promise' a myth tail, you are insane. This one will be lucky to not suffer the almost fatal bleeding of Mars Attacks.

 Hulksmash wrote:

winterwolf wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Judgedoug

Also part of my issue was how they handled the plastic FF's in not allowing us to purchase just those instead of only sets that included them which went againts what they originally said which was everything on the first survey will be on the second.

Actually, you could pick up FF sprues on the second survey. I grabbed a couple.

Just curious but for how much per set? I sweat I looked over that thing 30 times looking for a way to get them seperate and they just weren't there. I even asked about it in the comments and they said the only way to get them was thru the starters or BOGOF. That makes me a sad panda Especially given how the plastic zombies and terrain turned out (excellent)

I emailed Stewart and bought sprues of FF for $10 each. Retail discounts will probably match that, so I didn't go nuts.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

winterwolf wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Judgedoug

Also part of my issue was how they handled the plastic FF's in not allowing us to purchase just those instead of only sets that included them which went againts what they originally said which was everything on the first survey will be on the second.

Actually, you could pick up FF sprues on the second survey. I grabbed a couple.

Just curious but for how much per set? I sweat I looked over that thing 30 times looking for a way to get them seperate and they just weren't there. I even asked about it in the comments and they said the only way to get them was thru the starters or BOGOF. That makes me a sad panda Especially given how the plastic zombies and terrain turned out (excellent)

I emailed Stewart and bought sprues of FF for $10 each. Retail discounts will probably match that, so I didn't go nuts.

probably too late now but I would have gone in for another 5. I did ask in the comments but got shot down by other backers

Any news from the live chat yet?

Myth funded on the 24th of April.

On the 23rd of April they announced the Twilight Knight crossover, which may have had a significant effect on the numbers.

 Alpharius wrote:
questions/criticism =/= negativity and/or 'hate'

Mantic's got a spotty track record on various things, but then, I guess every company does!

Basically if you ignore nkelsch, the Mantic threads are no more negative than any of the others.

Should be a rule in the OP really.

nkelsch wrote:
Haaaaaaaaa. If you think anyone can 'promise' a myth tail, you are insane. This one will be lucky to not suffer the almost fatal bleeding of Mars Attacks.

Not promising it at all.

Here's how MA did, for sake of completeness. MA started with the base game. Did MA throw mini's at us towards the end? I was turned off when it went add-on crazy with expansion content, and focused on the comic books, not the trading cards.

What happened on the last few days of Mars Attacks with negative pledges? Backers dropping out?

They had two pledge levelsthat were "sweet spots" and there were a ton of people camping on both to see which would be a better deal. People started deciding at the end and it caused a huge drop when they dropped the 2nd one.

Thanks! Further reason to go to a single pledge level maybe? Though I see the $1 pledge level has been added. The psychology behind KS is fascinating to me.

 tgmoore wrote:
Thanks! Further reason to go to a single pledge level maybe? Though I see the $1 pledge level has been added. The psychology behind KS is fascinating to me.

In mars attacks they had the 1$ pledge level as well. The second pledge level that caused all the craziness had "Credit" built into it (i believe it was $250 or so?) that you could spend on add-ons, so people got on it to see if they would save enough money that way, or just get the regular early bird and get just the add-ons they wanted. It... was not the best idea.

I pledged a dollar on the first day of this one (before it was a pledge level) just to get the updates. I don't have a fantasy dungeon crawl game and think one may be a good addition to the stable. Hoping to learn enough about this one and also see enough value that I am tempted to up my pledge instead of ditch it at the end.

We'll see. So far I have not been too tempted to go in at $100.

 CptJake wrote:
I pledged a dollar on the first day of this one (before it was a pledge level) just to get the updates. I don't have a fantasy dungeon crawl game and think one may be a good addition to the stable. Hoping to learn enough about this one and also see enough value that I am tempted to up my pledge instead of ditch it at the end.

We'll see. So far I have not been too tempted to go in at $100.

I don't think its a good deal yet either. But I'm gonna go ahead and have my 100$ in there to see if it becomes one. I think it will. Might as well add your money to the mix to see what happens. You can always pull your pledge.

I can't be sure I'll be available to pull my pledge because of some projects for work that may have me away at the end, so losing a buck doesn't hurt. It just ends up being best for me to add in if/when it seems right for me instead of add in now and risk getting stuck.

Jake

I think it should be worth the $100 unless they go down the route of $75 expansion sets with tiles a few figures and rules, then stretch goals to add into a paid addon. I've got a bad feeling this maybe the case. If I recall mars attacks did something similar?

 squall018 wrote:
They had two pledge levelsthat were "sweet spots" and there were a ton of people camping on both to see which would be a better deal. People started deciding at the end and it caused a huge drop when they dropped the 2nd one.

The other thing was they had like 5-6 stretch goals which were unlocked at about 5k a pop. And then they were sliding back multiple stretch goals, and when stretch goals were for add-ons and such which people already 'added on', re-unlocking them doesn't drive anything. So Mantic had to forgive all those stretch goals, include them and then make re-new stretch goals to get more money pledged to stem the bleeding. What was only a few thousand a day was really close to 10k+ a day as the totals went down by 5K and then a new goal or add-on was thrown out to cover it up before Kicktraq 'remembered' it and showed people the next morning the true 'bleed'.

It was probably the one time a KS got out of mantic's control and they have learned from it in regards to the deep discount EBs and the promoting multi-account speculative pledges.

The thing is, what worked 2 years ago, stopped working a year later. KS is constantly evolving and there is no correct formula. If you copy someone's format, you risk being crushed under the weight of it. MYTH has a lot of bad feelings around it and a lot of people saying 'I won't do that again'. So it is not necessarily a good thing to try to copy MYTH's model.

 CptJake wrote:
I can't be sure I'll be available to pull my pledge because of some projects for work that may have me away at the end, so losing a buck doesn't hurt. It just ends up being best for me to add in if/when it seems right for me instead of add in now and risk getting stuck.

Jake

Thats fair. During the Deadzone KS I was up in NYC for work and had to pull my pledge because I wasn't sure before I left and I wasn't going to have constant internet up there. So I get that.

The last few days of Mars Attacks also coincided with a protest over some Dreadball backers receiving some metal minis instead of plastic in their final shipment, and also importantly with the launch of the Alien v Predator game from Prodos on KS. Between the three things it was enough of a loss to start a mini panic run, which Mantic arrested by throwing in extras and changing stretch goals.

 squall018 wrote:


I don't think its a good deal yet either. But I'm gonna go ahead and have my 100$ in there to see if it becomes one. I think it will. Might as well add your money to the mix to see what happens. You can always pull your pledge.

And when people did for Mars Attacks, the people who tried to get people in via 'you can always pull your pledge' were having seizures of anger when people actually were pulling their pledge.

Speculative pledging to unlock goals only promotes backslides. We actually have seen an issue where people will pledge fake pledges simply to see what the next goal is only to pull it after announced.

If the value is not there, the best thing you can do is not pledge until it is.

nkelsch wrote:

 squall018 wrote:


I don't think its a good deal yet either. But I'm gonna go ahead and have my 100$ in there to see if it becomes one. I think it will. Might as well add your money to the mix to see what happens. You can always pull your pledge.

And when people did for Mars Attacks, the people who tried to get people in via 'you can always pull your pledge' were having seizures of anger when people actually were pulling their pledge.

Speculative pledging to unlock goals only promotes backslides. We actually have seen an issue where people will pledge fake pledges simply to see what the next goal is only to pull it after announced.

If the value is not there, the best thing you can do is not pledge until it is.

Thats fair, you guys are more than welcome to pledge how you wish. You will certainly not see "seizures of anger" from this guy over KS or anything else miniature related (unless you kill one of my necromunda gangers I really like!). I just think for people that want to pledge, but don't see the value yet, the best way to get value is to pledge so more stretch goals unlock.

It all depends on how you see KS though, I don't really see it as "getting value", I see it as a way to encourage development of products I might like.

I pledge sparingly, but it's always because I want something made and I think the creator in question can do it, not because I'm particularly fishing for value. Though of course it is a consideration.

 Da Boss wrote:
It all depends on how you see KS though, I don't really see it as "getting value", I see it as a way to encourage development of products I might like.

I don't see them as being mutually exclusive.

decker_cky wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
It all depends on how you see KS though, I don't really see it as "getting value", I see it as a way to encourage development of products I might like.

I don't see them as being mutually exclusive.

They are not. In fact, he is finding 'value' in the encouragement development of products he likes.

Good point. Can you see what I'm getting at though?

nkelsch wrote:
MYTH has a lot of bad feelings around it and a lot of people saying 'I won't do that again'. So it is not necessarily a good thing to try to copy MYTH's model.

I thought most of the MYTH bad feelings were over massive delays and poorly written/exampled rules? I haven't really paid attention though.