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I find milliput coarse, even their extra fine.

Green stuff is the good stuff, the trcik to that is not to buy it from GW but to buy it as Kneadatite, you get a strip a yard long at half the price of a four inch fold from GW. It is exactly the same material, and the Kneadatite company Polymeric Systems has started calling it Green Stuff too.

The clownshoes "fix" in the latest update is pretty much the last straw for me and Mantic. I'm done with their haphazard kickstarters and fulfilment. I'll pick up the KoW rulebooks and the odd figure (sadly the ones I'm interested in were sculpted by the French sculptor who posted here about getting screwed around by them). I'm done with their badly-organised and proofread boardgame KS projects, though. At this stage, we need CMoN to put together a HeroQuest/Warhammer Quest successor. Unless Specialist Games re-releases it..

 Azazelx wrote:
The clownshoes "fix" in the latest update is pretty much the last straw for me and Mantic. I'm done with their haphazard kickstarters and fulfilment. I'll pick up the KoW rulebooks and the odd figure (sadly the ones I'm interested in were sculpted by the French sculptor who posted here about getting screwed around by them). I'm done with their badly-organised and proofread boardgame KS projects, though. At this stage, we need CMoN to put together a HeroQuest/Warhammer Quest successor. Unless Specialist Games re-releases it..

Whoa. Jake Thornton says the fix is a work in progress and Mantic realise they screwed the pooch over the hardback book. There are issues, even customer service level issues. I found I dont have enough resin bone markers to make a full set and may have to mix resin and card pieces which defeats the point in buying them to begin with, and they were KS exclusive.
I paid extra to go over $200 to get the hardback book, which was eventually free for all at $175 and not as advertised.
There have been casting problems with some of the stuff have got, and I have no base for Kelden, which is not surprising as it was added loose in most boxsets.
All in all there is a lot to complain about.

But it also DELIVERS. Just over twelve months from KS funding is not bad at all for a project of this size. The sculpts deliver in quality, the game largely delivers in quality, which is not bad at all allowing for the cap on difficulty and wide range of models to use.

Yes Mantic makes mistakes, yes it juggles a lot very quickly, but they do take game quality seriously, and they do take customer service seriously. I hope Folklore the Affliction and Human interface Nakamura Tower, both projects of broadly similar scale have the same measure of quality Dungeon Saga has shown, and I am still waiting for Heroquest 25th.

Up to you Azazelx, but I think a less than perfect success is an acceptable passmark. If you expect too much to be right first time Kickstarter will repeatedly disappoint you. Frankly I would say we got lucky that the Chinese factories didn't feth Mantic around as they have with many other projects. Deliveries have gone out with very little mishap, which is quite an achievement for a project this size. Some people will get a sucky ride, due to the roll of the dice on delivery quality, but so far is appears antic have beaten the odds, an they have done a lot to try and make the project Aus, US and EU friendly for customs purposes, and processed a massive and complicated backer delivery quickly despite using multiple hubs . I wish Reaper would do that, Bones 3 is going to drop my stones the the customs vice.

This is my only Mantic product so far, and is likely to remains such. I have no interest in the rest of their product line beyond the odd boxset here or there for WHFB. By and large I am very impressed, though I have heard that some earlier projects were mishandled and this may mean repeat customers might have differen memories of the company. If so, consider this, it appears with the reletive smoothness of the project that Mantic are learning from experience.

So.. this is your only Mantic product so far. So while I'm very happy for your postive experience, I've backed a fair few at this point and have a decent amount of first hand experience with Mantic's Kickstarters.

I've found their record appalling for competent delivery, average for component quality, wildly inconsistent levels of customer service (I'm at over 2 months now waiting on some replacement items), and spotty rules development.

I won't argue that other projects such as Myth, Sedition Wars, et al have been equally or more fethed up, but other people being gak at their job doesn't excuse Mantic from the very same. Both Dreadball and DeadZone are supposed to be rather good games at their core, but already both have had serious issues and have had to be rewritten. (Jake is generally good, but he's not nearly as good as he and his fans think he is).

BTW, it's probably better if you don't go on about how everything is the fault of the ebil Chinese Factories as you did while carrying water for Games and Gears. Mantic have been doing this for quite awhile now, as have CMoN - and the difference is chalk and cheese.

FYI, they haven't done jack gak for AU as far as customs goes, as with the current laws, we have a AU$1k threshold - so there's actually no duty to be paid anyway unlike your own VAT situation. It's fine by me that they've been attempting to reduce their shipping costs (though we paid through the nose for it) but it's got nothing to do with customs, tax, or benefiting AU backers.

Really though - promising one thing and delivering another, changing the deal over and over, fething up the product quality and then asking backers to pay for the shipping to deliver what was actually promised (and delivery paid for once already!) is clownshoes. I'm personally over it. I'll play KoW, buy the odd model, etc at retail, but I see no point in continuing to fund their semi-competent kickstarters at this point. They've finally burnt the last of my goodwill. I'd rather buy the second edition of their products at retail and hopefully not have to deal with their endless "1st edition mistakes" any more.

While I'm not planning to marry CMoN at any stage, I'd rather go with selected CMoN boardgame products as they are at this point in time far more professionally produced in terms of product, care, packaging, component quality, etc - while being just as complex in terms of "optional add-ons". So as I've said. I'd love to see CMoN's take on a cooperative dungeon crawler boardgame (with campaign system) because I've been burned enough times by Mantic.

Speaking as a completely average backer, the game is fun as feth to sit down and play, and came in time for Christmas.
Yeah there were issues, but not issues that stop four or give people having a great evening of they want to.

There at least, they succeeded.

I'm sort of in the same boat as Buttery. But I think that's because I was happy enough with the base game and missions, and the expansions.

All the extra stuff (invisible overlord, uncharted dungeon, all that) was just some extra gravy for me, that wasn't core to my engagement with the product. So the adventurers companion was not very important to me.

If it was, and if those sections of the rules were a core part of what you were interested in, then I can totally see being pissed off.

For me, the game delivered on-
Minis - 102 minis, all pretty nice quality, for a decent price. Now that I am becoming an old far, I like resilient boardgame minis that can take some abuse. These fit the bill and they are lovely to paint.
Accessories - the furniture and doors are lovely pieces and will get used by me in D'n'D games as well as DS.
Core rules/missions - fast playing, reasonably balanced, good fun. That's what I wanted.

The card components aren't of the highest quality (the dungeon tiles are good enough, but the cards are very flimsy in my opinion) but they serve their purpose.

It sucks that Mantic lured people in by over promising on the adventurer's companion rules. I was expecting a much chunkier hardback full of content.

But the other goodness overshadows that failure, for me.

I don't see how this is a "clownshoe" fix?

They are doing the best that is possible at this point of time: fix the mistakes, reprint, give it to us for free (plus postage).

All the other fixes are fixes to very very minor quibbles, but I am sure they will deliver adequate pdf digital content there too

The ONLY thing someone could be annoyed about is that they had given the impression that the AC would have truly advanced rules etc in it (more like pathfinder than dungeon saga...). Yes, they did not deliver on this and will never, probably. I am a tad sad about it but I understand why it didn't happen - it was just unrealistic for this project.


BTW: I am quite sad to hear that their customer service is so patchy / random. I had complained that my Blaine had an arm missing (for the KoW 2 blaine, not this one). I said that I was going to play an order to the webstore soon and still had DS parts and KoW 2 parts coming by post, and that I'd be happy to wait and have them send the blaine arm with that... but they still sent me A WHOLE NEW BLAINE within three days!! So, yeah, I am quite confused why they are so bad at prioritising - letting some customers wait for months and others (who express being very willing to wait!) are served within 24h.

 Azazelx wrote:
So.. this is your only Mantic product so far. So while I'm very happy for your positive experience, I've backed a fair few at this point and have a decent amount of first hand experience with Mantic's Kickstarters.
I've found their record appalling for competent delivery, average for component quality, wildly inconsistent levels of customer service (I'm at over 2 months now waiting on some replacement items), and spotty rules development.

They are getting better and you are getting jaded. Yes my experience is overall positive, but were I a repeat customer I would take each experience in separation. After all you came back for more, and no one forced you to, so you should look at this project in isolation.

 Azazelx wrote:

BTW, it's probably better if you don't go on about how everything is the fault of the ebil Chinese Factories as you did while carrying water for Games and Gears. Mantic have been doing this for quite awhile now, as have CMoN - and the difference is chalk and cheese.

Actually I ought to. Chinese outsourcing burned Catalyst Labs fingers badly and killed Rackham and iKore. Some companies do ok, others less so.

 Azazelx wrote:

FYI, they haven't done jack gak for AU as far as customs goes, as with the current laws, we have a AU$1k threshold - so there's actually no duty to be paid anyway unlike your own VAT situation. It's fine by me that they've been attempting to reduce their shipping costs (though we paid through the nose for it) but it's got nothing to do with customs, tax, or benefiting AU backers.

So it looks like there ought to be no complaint either. You cant ship across the planet without incurring costs. We don't have teleporters yet.
I am sure I will suffer badly if I back and Australian games company.

 Azazelx wrote:

While I'm not planning to marry CMoN at any stage, I'd rather go with selected CMoN boardgame products as they are at this point in time far more professionally produced in terms of product, care, packaging, component quality, etc - while being just as complex in terms of "optional add-ons". So as I've said. I'd love to see CMoN's take on a cooperative dungeon crawler boardgame (with campaign system) because I've been burned enough times by Mantic.

Here is the rub, I backed B-Sieged and I am hearing a lot of moaning about CMoN and their tardiness and customer service. For pretty much the same reasons as you made for Mantic. So its all about everyone individual mileage, and unless you get very unlucky and have a trashed or missing delivery box or a mispick or some such its simply a choice to see the glass half full or half empty. I choose the former from the same info. I could have chosen to get upset over the book, or the bad factory assembled dragon I received. In fact I did complain, but wrote such a light hearted email it got priority attention, which was unexpected.

Keeping positive is its own reward, this project is hardly a turkey, or a bad deal. Beyond a very bad personal experience wih the delivery, which can happen, I cant see mush to complain about frankly.

I think that Mantic have made a reasonable compromise here - and not a clownshoes fix - and at least they have owned up to the issue and tried to fix it. Other more porminient KS companies have simply walked away from the mess they sent out

I understand that people who wanted a full advanced AC are disappointed but this was product unseen and as such there was every cahance that not everyone would get what they wanted. If the AC was the main thing that you wanted, perhaps you should have mad ethe more informed decision when it was released for retail? Sorry if that comes over a bit harsh

As it is the game delivers and scratches the same itch the original Heroquest, a fun lite RPG boardgame

I'm at their open day and they are indecently apologetic over the entire thing. No cover up, total transparency.
I can admire that in a company that could take an egotistical stand.

Edit: Side pic of below to avoid three posts.

And better late than never, I remember someone wanted to see him.

 Azazelx wrote:
The clownshoes "fix" in the latest update is pretty much the last straw for me and Mantic.

Same here, except *before* DS I read enough on Dakka to give Mantic a pass, or at least reconsider them once they deliver a game I'm satisfied with. From the comments I've read here, blogs, and BGG, they didn't.

That's not going to keep me from picking up the base game on a Black Friday or Daily Deal sale, but that goes for plenty of other games I'm interested in.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
And better late than never, I remember someone wanted to see him.

That was probably me. Thank you, I quite like the look of this fantasy Blaine. Unfortunately I still haven't received mine, so I guess it's time to file a missing item report.

ced1106 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
The clownshoes "fix" in the latest update is pretty much the last straw for me and Mantic.

Same here, except *before* DS I read enough on Dakka to give Mantic a pass, or at least reconsider them once they deliver a game I'm satisfied with. From the comments I've read here, blogs, and BGG, they didn't.

That's not going to keep me from picking up the base game on a Black Friday or Daily Deal sale, but that goes for plenty of other games I'm interested in.

That's pretty fair - after reading these comments (From Dakkanauts I consider pretty sensible) I went back and checked the big graphics. They really did promise quite a bit that they didn't deliver on in the end - and it was primarily written material. But it was all stuff that was peripheral to my interests which probably explains why I'm so happy and you guys aren't.

The combined Dungeon Journal/Adventurers Companion would have been better than the wee booklet and fairly sparse AC we got. It also didn't really deliver on all the promised contents.

Model wise though, and in terms of core components, I feel they did deliver, and the core game is mechanically solid and importantly, plays fluidly and satisfyingly. It's not too complex, but I personally see that as a good thing.

The only poopy models they gave us are the terrible twosome from the Valandor expansion (Val himself looks like an eighties cartoon hero and Ba'el is just pretty bad in all aspects).

I do feel that the core game is pricey enough for the content at retail though! It should really come with an "evil dead" booster worth of extra minis to be properly worth it.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Speaking as a completely average backer, the game is fun as feth to sit down and play, and came in time for Christmas.
Yeah there were issues, but not issues that stop four or give people having a great evening of they want to.

There at least, they succeeded.

How can we know if we don't have our stuff yet?

You know what else would be fun for 1 or 2 peaople? The adventure books I paid for that Mantic canceled after taking my money. Frankly, those were the most exciting part of the entire DS campaign for me, the only part I pledged in the actual campaign for to show my support. And now I don't even have my Valandor consolation prize because Mantic hired Lucy and Ethel to pack all their rewards shipments.

Da Boss wrote:The only poopy models they gave us are the terrible twosome from the Valandor expansion (Val himself looks like an eighties cartoon hero and Ba'el is just pretty bad in all aspects).

It's bizarre, the painted version of Val is jaw-dropping. I was so stoked having seen it, and really it was the figureI was most buzzed for. And then he is a Ken doll of a figure in the plastic. I can only hope he paints well.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
How can we know if we don't have our stuff yet?

You know what else would be fun for 1 or 2 peaople? The adventure books I paid for that Mantic canceled after taking my money. Frankly, those were the most exciting part of the entire DS campaign for me, the only part I pledged in the actual campaign for to show my support. And now I don't even have my Valandor consolation prize because Mantic hired Lucy and Ethel to pack all their rewards shipments.

I was trying to be, you know, positive on things that are generally applicable once the core product is delivered. I'll stop.

Well, as you say, the positivity will be applicable once the core product is delivered. Whenever that will be. I used to be pretty positive about Mantic, and will be again, but it's hard to keep that positivity going while Mantic's metaphorical knee is still wedged firmly into my metaphorical jewels.

So what's the deal with the extra books/content? What is missing, solo/variant coop? Depth in terms of the custom games/bestiary/creating and leveling the characters? Still waiting on my stuff and haven't been following really closely (also barely remember what we were even promised at this point).

Why is there negativity for this game? What did manic screw up? I had pledged for the game and resin legendary characters but had to back out due to basement water issues...

I was thinking of buying the game but am seeing lots of 'mantic screwed up' comments.

I guess if they messed up bad or you are unhappy I'd buy your pledge from you as I wish I hadn't had to drop my pledge

The core game is fine, there are no screw ups there.

The Adventurer's Companion is what people are unhappy about - the hardback book that expands the game.

AI play, solo play, character creation and bestiary are all there, and functional, but they are a bit bare bones.

Also, the copies we got in the KS have page references screwed up and a few errors and duplicated sentences and paragraphs where there shouldn't be any.

It also doesn't have some of the adventures promised, which will be released digitally later.

I'm happy with what I got and I think if you get the core game you will likely find it okay, but wait to see if Mantic fix the AC before buying.

The issues, generally speaking are going to be exclusive to the kickstarter patrons. - So if you're just buying normally, you're gonna be pretty pleased with the game, I'd say.

Basically, there are numerous editing errors in the Adventurers Companion.

The impression was given of the Adventurers Companion that it was a more 'epic' book than it actually ended up being. That's not to say it's a bad book, persay. Just more of a case of wasted potential and potentially people paying more than they would have otherwise.

There's the pretty much standard "masses of missing pieces and parts of orders" thing which Mantic usually does. - I personally, for example, are missing my Dungeon Critters pack.

Some books are being released as PDF when they were advertised as physical books. Really annoying if you're a kickstarter backer but buying retail, you'd know that already...

One that my mate has mentioned which noone else has, apparently the 'traps' set is so badly made that actual fingerprints are visible on the models.

Yeah, the "kickstarter special" stuff seems to have been compromised on quality a fair bit, the focus was on making the retail game as good as possible it seems.

 Compel wrote:
One that my mate has mentioned which noone else has, apparently the 'traps' set is so badly made that actual fingerprints are visible on the models.

Here's what someone posted on BGG. Anyone who wants do know about problems with the AC (proofreading, content) should see the BGG forums. Various blogs I've read comment about the game tiles (double-sided with the same dark art), clips (don't work well), etc.

"As you can see, the left one looks like a "floor" while the right has lots of fingerprints and basically looks like something I'd make when drunk."



https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1476721/are-resin-trap-tokens-supposed-look

Wow, those are really bad. I feel really sorry for anyone who pledged for them.

Extremely poor form.

The Black Fortress tiles aren't properly double sided, but all the core game tiles are.

The art is nothing special though- a bit overcrowded in my opinion, but good enough for what it is. I prefer the black fortress ones, even though they are not properly double sided.

I took some Black Fortress tiles to my local GW today, to select a paint to go with the tiles for the bases.
I noticed that the expansionscare all double sides with one half similar to Black Fortress one half custom for the campaign. I was going for grey flagstones like Mantic did, but decided instead to go for brown.
I bought Steel Legion Drab > Reikland Flesh > Karak Stone directly based on the 'layering' side of the GW wallchart from the base colour of Steel Legion drab, which was the closest to the generic flooring for Dungeon Saga.
While I have an awful lot of paint I like to standardise bases, and therefore bought current G line so that if buy sets in the future I can have a consistent basing style.
Grey does seem a more natural shade for flagstones, but there are brown flagstone floors.

Those trap tiles are awful, glad I didn't buy them. The add ons have been very random, from those who got them the dungeon critters was a very good buy. The wound markers look great, though they dont look like they were advertised to, the acrylic counters are apparently crap, but I haven't seen them, must heard they were disappointing.

Orlanth, to say how you'd have an idea of how it would play, did Mantic ever put out the rule PDF for perusal? The three playtests we variously attended, we were only working from those photcopied and hand-written notes... And we did get a really good feel as to whether we'd enjoy it. We didn't see a real mini or card tile until maybe a few weeks before release.
It's not the same as having it in hand, I understand that entirely.

 455_PWR wrote:
Why is there negativity for this game? What did manic screw up? I had pledged for the game and resin legendary characters but had to back out due to basement water issues...

I was thinking of buying the game but am seeing lots of 'mantic screwed up' comments.

I guess if they messed up bad or you are unhappy I'd buy your pledge from you as I wish I hadn't had to drop my pledge

As has been said, the core game is fine.
Mantic basically was trying to pull off the workload of a huge company, when they're only a moderately large company. They dropped some balls trying to juggle just that few too many tasks.

The various add-ons, upgrades and exclusives are intermittently flawed, incomplete, misprinted, or misrepresented. However the company is trying to make amends by offering replacements and refunds of the worst offenders.
Basically this was a massive learning curve and has shocked people on both sides, but the game system is solid.


Mantic Things I learned today at the seminar:
They are going to hire a dedicated communication and customer relations person for future KS. They are very well aware things were leaving folks soured.
For the future Kickstarters, they're looking to up staff levels appropriately and make sure the software is foolproof.
They are keen to work on some dungeon furniture packs as a future product line based on the reactions to the plastic scenery. I didn't get the gist of the timescale.
The DS game sold out its entire print run. 18k printed, 6k went to KS, 12k went to stores and preorders.
Ronnie is keen for: There to be foam in the boxes for the expansions. This may not end up being a thing. Plastic fantasy terrain much like the current sci fi range. Convincing sculptors and that it will sell well is the obstacle.

Start saving for February. (Bear in mind I don't get newsletters, or KS updates, this may not be news)

Ronnie also may or may not have been strangled when everyone went home for some of the "leaks" he got excited over, but I also don't think it was accidental.
I'm not really sure I 100% understood some of the future things hinted at, so I'm not going to blab and go off half cocked. The above were very plain truths.

What's in Feb? The new KS? Pledge manager for warpath finally?

 GrimDork wrote:
What's in Feb? The new KS? Pledge manager for warpath finally?

Hopefully he means the post-apocalyptic licensed game that is either Mad Max or Fallout

"Convincing sculptors" is an "obstacle"? Could you please elaborate on that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alex C wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
What's in Feb? The new KS? Pledge manager for warpath finally?

Hopefully he means the post-apocalyptic licensed game that is either Mad Max or Fallout

Technically, Star Trek is a post apocalyptic setting, too. But my money's on Mad Max...as in, I would buy a boardgame plastic Immortan Joe in a heartbeat. Don't know anything about Fallout.

New KIckstarter or launch as far as I understood.

I need to talk with the folk who were with me in the light of day, but from my scant understanding, it will likely be sci fi related.

Folk could gain entry to a secret room today by raffle ticket. That sounded very silly and very cool. This is the first open day where they weren't showing everyone a big physical reveal.
Now this could have been protecting something, testing the waters as to fan leaks, building hype, who knows.
I didn't get in, I lost my ticket. I'm not very organised.