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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 03:20:57
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Ok, quite simply, chapters of 1,000 men is just ridiculous. Plain and simple. I understand SM's are superhuman badasses but they still need a bit more numbers to operate in a more efficient fashion.
Now, I know what a lot of you are gonna say. "Well, bigger chapters defeats the grimdark aspect of the hobby", it honestly won't y'all. Before I explain why though, allow me to give you an example of what I am talking about.
Legions should be brought back. Each legion should contain:
5 chapters of 2,000 marines, equaling 10,000 marines per legion.
Company: 200 marines. 4 dev squads, 4 assualt squads, 12 tac squads and staff (yes, basically 2 normal SM companies of today pasted together and placed under leadership of a single captain, which leaves 50 companies in a legion).
Each chapter will have a single Chapter Master managing its operations. Leading the legion should be one of 2 choices and I will create a poll if you guys want me to. Let me know.
1) the 5 chapter masters create a council to hammer out important decisions for the legion. Since they are an odd number, votes will always swing someway at 2 to 3 conclusion at least.
2) a new kind of SM rank is brought into the picture, which could be interesting. He could be a lord or something, leading the entire legion and sharing his directions with his chapter masters.
After looking at these numbers, for me at least, it seems a lot more believable. This is the absolute least a legion should contain, if I might add. I just don't believe in the whole "1,000 marines can stomp any army to death" thing. I absolutely love SM's and I would love to see their organisation make more sense. The grimdark aspect of the game should not be harmed by this because 10,000 man chapters is still a bit short of compensation but it will do.
Let me know what you think and let me know if I might have missed something.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/28 03:24:02
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 03:29:41
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
Louisville, Ky
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I like this, but I also think that splitting the Legions was dumb in the first place.
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1000-6500 SW W/L/D 6/1/3
2014: 12/0/4
2015: 8/5/4
Adeptus_lupus instagram for BR
Ave Imperator |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 03:45:04
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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It was. Guilliman thought he was all kinds of smart when he rewrote the organisation of the Imperium.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 03:45:47
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
Louisville, Ky
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Lord Tarkin wrote:
It was. Guilliman thought he was all kinds of smart when he rewrote the organisation of the Imperium.
smug bastard
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1000-6500 SW W/L/D 6/1/3
2014: 12/0/4
2015: 8/5/4
Adeptus_lupus instagram for BR
Ave Imperator |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 05:16:16
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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1,000,000 strong marine chapters makes them more relevant on a galactic scale.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 05:21:12
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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It does.
Astartes are the last vestiges of the (false) Emperor's glory, of the hope of a brighter time when they used to sweep across the galaxy in vast armies, enlightening everything they saw. Putting them into forces large enough to actually accomplish something brings back the hope of that era.
As for the in-universe reasoning: 1000 man chapters minimise the damage of one going traitor. Horus only needed to sway eight other people to set the entire galaxy aflame, for the same amount of damage to be done nowadays, hundreds of chapters would need to turn to Chaos simultaneously, which is a much more difficult feat. It's the standard divide and conquer strategy.
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Necrons: 4000+ pts
Tyranids: 1000+ pts
Word Bearers: 1500+ pts
Emperor's Children: 1500+ pts
Minotaurs: 2000+ pts (killed by Primaris, thanks GW)
Custodes: 1000+ pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 05:53:58
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Blackhair Duckshape wrote:It does.
Astartes are the last vestiges of the (false) Emperor's glory, of the hope of a brighter time when they used to sweep across the galaxy in vast armies, enlightening everything they saw. Putting them into forces large enough to actually accomplish something brings back the hope of that era.
As for the in-universe reasoning: 1000 man chapters minimise the damage of one going traitor. Horus only needed to sway eight other people to set the entire galaxy aflame, for the same amount of damage to be done nowadays, hundreds of chapters would need to turn to Chaos simultaneously, which is a much more difficult feat. It's the standard divide and conquer strategy.
No it doesn't. Really. 10,000 marine chapters is still tiny, 1,000 is just insane. It should very well still be grimdark. Its not like they are hundreds of thousands per chapter, its just 10,000. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, damn right that would be relevant but then again it abolishes the grimdark people tend to take so seriously. But yeah, pretty much, 1,000,000 would make them a lot more relevant on a galactic scale.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/28 05:56:10
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 06:15:21
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Less GrimDark? Nah. It'd be less GrimDark if somehow more Space Marines would slow down the fall of the Imperium or would alleviate the suffering of the common man. If anything, it would exacerbate those issues. 1,000,000 Space Marines going traitor all at once isn't exactly something that the Imperium would benefit from. Producing and supplying those marines would require entire dedicated Forge Worlds. Each tactical marine stands on the broken shoulders of the downtrodden Proletariat.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 06:33:32
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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TheCustomLime wrote:Less GrimDark? Nah. It'd be less GrimDark if somehow more Space Marines would slow down the fall of the Imperium or would alleviate the suffering of the common man. If anything, it would exacerbate those issues. 1,000,000 Space Marines going traitor all at once isn't exactly something that the Imperium would benefit from. Producing and supplying those marines would require entire dedicated Forge Worlds. Each tactical marine stands on the broken shoulders of the downtrodden Proletariat.
Well, I firmly believe if 1,000,000 man chapters went traitor....the likeliness of allllll those marines going traitor, wouldn't be that great. Look at the HH. Every single traitor legion had some of their own marines staying loyal and they had to be bombarded at Isstvan.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 06:36:00
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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It would still be a good portion of their number. Then you can run into situations like the Crimson Slaughter where the entire chapter went rogue because of Chaos taint.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 06:49:40
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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Lord Tarkin wrote:No it doesn't. Really. 10,000 marine chapters is still tiny, 1,000 is just insane. It should very well still be grimdark. Its not like they are hundreds of thousands per chapter, its just 10,000.
If the Astartes are still ineffective, then you're just arguing over an arbitrary number.
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Necrons: 4000+ pts
Tyranids: 1000+ pts
Word Bearers: 1500+ pts
Emperor's Children: 1500+ pts
Minotaurs: 2000+ pts (killed by Primaris, thanks GW)
Custodes: 1000+ pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 06:51:10
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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TheCustomLime wrote:It would still be a good portion of their number. Then you can run into situations like the Crimson Slaughter where the entire chapter went rogue because of Chaos taint.
Oh, then there is that, yes. To be honest though, a million marines in one legion is just a bit much.
But heres what gets me.
Lets assume an entire sector is being overrun by orks. Lets say....200 regiments of guard and 50 SM chapters are needed to fight the war. For those 50,000 marines present, there would be 50 chapters, going by the present organisation.
As I have explained them, there would be 5 legions. With 5 chapter masters heading a council for each to reduce the chances of one man making a traitorous decision with the chapter. That is really the greater option to me, but I will respect the opinions of thoes who believe differently. Automatically Appended Next Post: Blackhair Duckshape wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:No it doesn't. Really. 10,000 marine chapters is still tiny, 1,000 is just insane. It should very well still be grimdark. Its not like they are hundreds of thousands per chapter, its just 10,000.
If the Astartes are still ineffective, then you're just arguing over an arbitrary number.
I never said they'd be ineffective, only that the grimdark wont be leaving any time soon.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/28 06:52:23
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 07:13:28
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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Lord Tarkin wrote:I never said they'd be ineffective, only that the grimdark wont be leaving any time soon.
The effectiveness of the Astartes is inversely proportional to the grimdarkness of the setting.
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Necrons: 4000+ pts
Tyranids: 1000+ pts
Word Bearers: 1500+ pts
Emperor's Children: 1500+ pts
Minotaurs: 2000+ pts (killed by Primaris, thanks GW)
Custodes: 1000+ pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 07:16:43
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Blackhair Duckshape wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:I never said they'd be ineffective, only that the grimdark wont be leaving any time soon.
The effectiveness of the Astartes is inversely proportional to the grimdarkness of the setting.
Uh, yeah, I guess. Look, all I am saying is that 10,000 marines is a much better number than 1,000. You have your own opinions and thats fine, so do I.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 07:27:43
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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TheCustomLime wrote:Each tactical marine stands on the broken shoulders of the downtrodden Proletariat.
Eviscerate the Proletariat!!
.....
er, wrong game. My bad.
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~1.5k
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 09:19:39
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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1000 marines is more than enough. 100 marines is more than enough for a battle. Here's the thing about them. They ARE NOT in every battle at once. They are in maybe 1% of battles at a time, hitting one or two precise locations, and then leave. They DON'T hold ground, they DON'T sit still and build trenches. When they hit something hard, they don't just hit it hard. They hit it REALLY FETHING HARD AND SMASH THE FETH OUT OF IT BECAUSE FETH YOU. That's how hard they hit it. They storm in, shoot things dead and don't even stop to take cover unless the enemy has Plasma or something. They take the important objective, make sure its secure in the hands of lesser soldiers and then go home. Meanwhile, the other 40 battles with lesz valuable objectives on the other dozen or so planets are left to themselves.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 10:08:36
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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as for the diea of giving them more troops and having each SM force be lead by a council of 5...
that's a AWEFUL idea. Command by commitee is a good way to ensure paryalsis.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 11:36:41
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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BrianDavion wrote:as for the diea of giving them more troops and having each SM force be lead by a council of 5...
that's a AWEFUL idea. Command by commitee is a good way to ensure paryalsis.
Bingo. And to boot, it would end up no different to any current chapter. Even ruled by Council, one guy decides to go rogue, kills or subverts the others. Any he can't subvert he kills. No different than killing off Captains who don't agree.
Or what if it were a bunch of no-name Chapters and a First Founding. For example, the Knights of the Raven, Iron Swords, Lion Brothers and Blood Angels/Ultramarines/Imperial Fists. The other 4 will yield to Calgar or Dante (and maybe Pugh) as geniuses and First Founders.
What if chapters were mixed from different Legions? How would it work? It would need to be groups by Primarch. All DA and Successors, all Ultramarine successors. In which case you might as well reform the whole Legion.
What if the likes of the Dark Angels ended up with the Silver Skulls and other Inquisitorial Chapters (or any Chapter really) and the Fallen were around? Or the BA go Psycho, or the SW go Wulfen?
And if the groups are by Primarch, the Salamanders and the Space Wolves are going to be alone.
What if some chapters don't get along? For example, the Praetors of Orpheus, IIRC, are on good terms with the AM, which is viewed unfavourably by other UM successors. Or the Red Scorpians get paired up with the Space Wolves and Blood Angels? Or don't like the UM Tyrannic War Veterans? Or the Black Templars get stuck with the Blood Ravens?
This is a whole mess of problems.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
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Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 15:43:12
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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Lord Tarkin wrote:Ok, quite simply, chapters of 1,000 men is just ridiculous. Plain and simple. I understand SM's are superhuman badasses but they still need a bit more numbers to operate in a more efficient fashion.
*Snip*
100% agreed.
Now why is 1000 SM bad?
1000 men (A modern battalion) is not enough to pacify anything on a country-wide scale, nevermind planetary scale. Look at any modern military engagement - Nato deploy thousands of soldiers simply to take out goatherders living in 1-bedroom caves or ze Germans during WWII sending 400k soldiers to occupy 3.5 million Norwegians. A Space Marine Chapter can maybe take a small city.
Now some say they're only there for the hardest fighting and surgical strikes.
What kind of losses would they suffer? I think we all agree their losses would be quite high.
Then think of replacing them. With those 100 scouts you have. Maximum.
The only guys who make any sort of logistical sense here would be the SW, Sons of Medusa and the Black Templars
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 16:16:18
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Deadshot wrote:1000 marines is more than enough. 100 marines is more than enough for a battle. Here's the thing about them. They ARE NOT in every battle at once. They are in maybe 1% of battles at a time, hitting one or two precise locations, and then leave. They DON'T hold ground, they DON'T sit still and build trenches. When they hit something hard, they don't just hit it hard. They hit it REALLY FETHING HARD AND SMASH THE FETH OUT OF IT BECAUSE FETH YOU. That's how hard they hit it. They storm in, shoot things dead and don't even stop to take cover unless the enemy has Plasma or something. They take the important objective, make sure its secure in the hands of lesser soldiers and then go home. Meanwhile, the other 40 battles with lesz valuable objectives on the other dozen or so planets are left to themselves.
The problem is that if they are only in 1% of the Imperium's wars then they aren't contributing meaningfully to the Imperial war effort. Sure, they may win key victories because of their Space Marineyness but they aren't helping the Imperium's war situation at all. The problem with the Imperium right now is that really big fat meanies can stomp worlds into the dirt without repercussions if they work faster than a few months. Space Marines being at 1% doesn't help the situation any. In fact, with how many of those big fat meanies used to be Space Marines their existence probably made it worse.
It's a catch-22 with Space Marines. Having only a few Space Marines and they have negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources. Having many Space Marines will allow you to stomp enemies into the ground. But having so many allows for even more Chaos Marines who can wreck the Imperium's gak worse than anyone else. End result is that having a bunch of Space marines has a negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 16:16:24
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Terrifying Wraith
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Earth has a population of 7.05 billion, without system-wide planetary specialization of the far future.
Even if a SM is equivalent to 1,000 humans, it would take 7,050 chapters to fight earth to a tie.
7,050,000,000 humans / 1,000 humans per marine= 7,050,000 marines
7,050,000 marines / 1,000 marines per chapter = 7,050 chapters.
That's so stupid: their arnt even 7,050 chapters in GW lore.
even if a marine could average 10,000 guardsmen, it would take over 700 chapters at their current sizes to pacify earth.
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Fantasy: 4000 - WoC, 1500 - VC, 1500 - Beastmen
40k: 2000 - White Scars
Hordes: 5/100 - Circle of Orboros
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 16:33:34
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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TheCustomLime wrote: Deadshot wrote:1000 marines is more than enough. 100 marines is more than enough for a battle. Here's the thing about them. They ARE NOT in every battle at once. They are in maybe 1% of battles at a time, hitting one or two precise locations, and then leave. They DON'T hold ground, they DON'T sit still and build trenches. When they hit something hard, they don't just hit it hard. They hit it REALLY FETHING HARD AND SMASH THE FETH OUT OF IT BECAUSE FETH YOU. That's how hard they hit it. They storm in, shoot things dead and don't even stop to take cover unless the enemy has Plasma or something. They take the important objective, make sure its secure in the hands of lesser soldiers and then go home. Meanwhile, the other 40 battles with lesz valuable objectives on the other dozen or so planets are left to themselves.
The problem is that if they are only in 1% of the Imperium's wars then they aren't contributing meaningfully to the Imperial war effort. Sure, they may win key victories because of their Space Marineyness but they aren't helping the Imperium's war situation at all. The problem with the Imperium right now is that really big fat meanies can stomp worlds into the dirt without repercussions if they work faster than a few months. Space Marines being at 1% doesn't help the situation any. In fact, with how many of those big fat meanies used to be Space Marines their existence probably made it worse.
It's a catch-22 with Space Marines. Having only a few Space Marines and they have negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources. Having many Space Marines will allow you to stomp enemies into the ground. But having so many allows for even more Chaos Marines who can wreck the Imperium's gak worse than anyone else. End result is that having a bunch of Space marines has a negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources.
I agree with everything you said but SM's don't go traitor as often as humans do. Correct me if I'm wrong but entire chapters going traitor is a relatively rare thing? The Badab war and the abyssal crusade were the two most worst scenarios where whole chapters turned traitor. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kiwidru wrote:Earth has a population of 7.05 billion, without system-wide planetary specialization of the far future.
Even if a SM is equivalent to 1,000 humans, it would take 7,050 chapters to fight earth to a tie.
7,050,000,000 humans / 1,000 humans per marine= 7,050,000 marines
7,050,000 marines / 1,000 marines per chapter = 7,050 chapters.
That's so stupid: their arnt even 7,050 chapters in GW lore.
even if a marine could average 10,000 guardsmen, it would take over 700 chapters at their current sizes to pacify earth.
Yup, veryyyyy flawed.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/28 16:34:38
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 17:16:52
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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TheCustomLime wrote: Deadshot wrote:1000 marines is more than enough. 100 marines is more than enough for a battle. Here's the thing about them. They ARE NOT in every battle at once. They are in maybe 1% of battles at a time, hitting one or two precise locations, and then leave. They DON'T hold ground, they DON'T sit still and build trenches. When they hit something hard, they don't just hit it hard. They hit it REALLY FETHING HARD AND SMASH THE FETH OUT OF IT BECAUSE FETH YOU. That's how hard they hit it. They storm in, shoot things dead and don't even stop to take cover unless the enemy has Plasma or something. They take the important objective, make sure its secure in the hands of lesser soldiers and then go home. Meanwhile, the other 40 battles with lesz valuable objectives on the other dozen or so planets are left to themselves.
The problem is that if they are only in 1% of the Imperium's wars then they aren't contributing meaningfully to the Imperial war effort. Sure, they may win key victories because of their Space Marineyness but they aren't helping the Imperium's war situation at all. The problem with the Imperium right now is that really big fat meanies can stomp worlds into the dirt without repercussions if they work faster than a few months. Space Marines being at 1% doesn't help the situation any. In fact, with how many of those big fat meanies used to be Space Marines their existence probably made it worse.
It's a catch-22 with Space Marines. Having only a few Space Marines and they have negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources. Having many Space Marines will allow you to stomp enemies into the ground. But having so many allows for even more Chaos Marines who can wreck the Imperium's gak worse than anyone else. End result is that having a bunch of Space marines has a negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources.
They win battles the IG can't win, or can't win quickly. They can match Orks and Eldar who bith surpass humans physically. They also pitch in where they can. If 50 odd Salamanders come across a warzone on the way home they'll just join and help out. Rarely is a battle all-Astartes.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 17:31:12
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Deadshot wrote: TheCustomLime wrote: Deadshot wrote:1000 marines is more than enough. 100 marines is more than enough for a battle. Here's the thing about them. They ARE NOT in every battle at once. They are in maybe 1% of battles at a time, hitting one or two precise locations, and then leave. They DON'T hold ground, they DON'T sit still and build trenches. When they hit something hard, they don't just hit it hard. They hit it REALLY FETHING HARD AND SMASH THE FETH OUT OF IT BECAUSE FETH YOU. That's how hard they hit it. They storm in, shoot things dead and don't even stop to take cover unless the enemy has Plasma or something. They take the important objective, make sure its secure in the hands of lesser soldiers and then go home. Meanwhile, the other 40 battles with lesz valuable objectives on the other dozen or so planets are left to themselves.
The problem is that if they are only in 1% of the Imperium's wars then they aren't contributing meaningfully to the Imperial war effort. Sure, they may win key victories because of their Space Marineyness but they aren't helping the Imperium's war situation at all. The problem with the Imperium right now is that really big fat meanies can stomp worlds into the dirt without repercussions if they work faster than a few months. Space Marines being at 1% doesn't help the situation any. In fact, with how many of those big fat meanies used to be Space Marines their existence probably made it worse.
It's a catch-22 with Space Marines. Having only a few Space Marines and they have negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources. Having many Space Marines will allow you to stomp enemies into the ground. But having so many allows for even more Chaos Marines who can wreck the Imperium's gak worse than anyone else. End result is that having a bunch of Space marines has a negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources.
They win battles the IG can't win, or can't win quickly. They can match Orks and Eldar who bith surpass humans physically. They also pitch in where they can. If 50 odd Salamanders come across a warzone on the way home they'll just join and help out. Rarely is a battle all-Astartes.
If there are battles the IG can't win and the Space Marines can't be everywhere the Imperium is still doomed. At most the Space Marines may buy the Imperium a year or two.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 17:33:59
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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1000 Astartes couldn't even defeat current day military.
Granted, they would make a mess in one place, but after they start the rest of the world (NATO, etc) would just drone strike them. Marines can't defend against drones at high altitudes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 18:09:30
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Fixture of Dakka
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TheCustomLime wrote: Deadshot wrote: TheCustomLime wrote: Deadshot wrote:1000 marines is more than enough. 100 marines is more than enough for a battle. Here's the thing about them. They ARE NOT in every battle at once. They are in maybe 1% of battles at a time, hitting one or two precise locations, and then leave. They DON'T hold ground, they DON'T sit still and build trenches. When they hit something hard, they don't just hit it hard. They hit it REALLY FETHING HARD AND SMASH THE FETH OUT OF IT BECAUSE FETH YOU. That's how hard they hit it. They storm in, shoot things dead and don't even stop to take cover unless the enemy has Plasma or something. They take the important objective, make sure its secure in the hands of lesser soldiers and then go home. Meanwhile, the other 40 battles with lesz valuable objectives on the other dozen or so planets are left to themselves.
The problem is that if they are only in 1% of the Imperium's wars then they aren't contributing meaningfully to the Imperial war effort. Sure, they may win key victories because of their Space Marineyness but they aren't helping the Imperium's war situation at all. The problem with the Imperium right now is that really big fat meanies can stomp worlds into the dirt without repercussions if they work faster than a few months. Space Marines being at 1% doesn't help the situation any. In fact, with how many of those big fat meanies used to be Space Marines their existence probably made it worse.
It's a catch-22 with Space Marines. Having only a few Space Marines and they have negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources. Having many Space Marines will allow you to stomp enemies into the ground. But having so many allows for even more Chaos Marines who can wreck the Imperium's gak worse than anyone else. End result is that having a bunch of Space marines has a negligible to negative effect on the war effort thus making them a waste of resources.
They win battles the IG can't win, or can't win quickly. They can match Orks and Eldar who bith surpass humans physically. They also pitch in where they can. If 50 odd Salamanders come across a warzone on the way home they'll just join and help out. Rarely is a battle all-Astartes.
If there are battles the IG can't win and the Space Marines can't be everywhere the Imperium is still doomed. At most the Space Marines may buy the Imperium a year or two.
If there's a battle the IG can't win then you specifically send a Space Marine force that is not currently engaged or you hold long enough for a Space Marine force to become available. Automatically Appended Next Post: Mellow wrote:1000 Astartes couldn't even defeat current day military.
Granted, they would make a mess in one place, but after they start the rest of the world (NATO, etc) would just drone strike them. Marines can't defend against drones at high altitudes.
We can't defend against torpedo's blowing up the planet.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/28 18:10:20
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/28 22:22:44
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Astartes are shock troops. Full stop. There are very good reasons you don't build armies completely out of shock troops.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/29 02:24:55
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Bounding Assault Marine
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I really wish that games worship had done this it makes so much more sense than having them all split into such small groups that they would never be able to do things on a large scale
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/29 02:35:06
Subject: Re:New reforming of SM chapters?
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Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit
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Salamanders have seven companies. 120 men for 6. And 60 scouts.
A grand total of 780 marines...+some honor guard
ID BE HAPPY WITH A THOUSAND MARINES lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/07/29 02:37:04
Subject: New reforming of SM chapters?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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RileyJessup wrote:I really wish that games worship had done this it makes so much more sense than having them all split into such small groups that they would never be able to do things on a large scale
I really wish they had too. I have a feeling it might be too late though, because some SM players are hung up on 1,000. I always enjoyed the thought of thousands of SM's charging into a horde of orks. Just my opinion though. Automatically Appended Next Post: Midnightdeathblade wrote:Salamanders have seven companies. 120 men for 6. And 60 scouts.
A grand total of 780 marines...+some honor guard
ID BE HAPPY WITH A THOUSAND MARINES lol
Haha, more more!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/29 02:47:55
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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