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When he was walking around, did he think he was better/superior/ more important then any other human being in the galaxy...

Did the guy who used the human genome as his personal play slinky, actively tried to conquer every human in the galaxy, dictate how they should act and think at the point of a gun, wipe out all nonhuman intelligent life, and didn't tell the truth about his plans to anyone, even his own genetically engineered sons who he treated as little more than tools to carry his plan out, think he was superior to the average joe (of whom he killed billions)? It's a possibility!

 fallinq wrote:
Did the guy who used the human genome as his personal play slinky, actively tried to conquer every human in the galaxy, dictate how they should act and think at the point of a gun, wipe out all nonhuman intelligent life, and didn't tell the truth about his plans to anyone, even his own genetically engineered sons who he treated as little more than tools to carry his plan out, think he was superior to the average joe (of whom he killed billions)? It's a possibility!

Ha.

Considering he was a jerk to most of the Primarchs just to show he was better than them and that they should stay in line? Yes.

Telling the Primarchs that Psychic powers were dangerous but actively use them himself? Yes.

I much prefer the Emperor as a dead ish man, put it that way. Im sure most of the galaxy does too.

I wouldn't really call it a superiority complex seeing as he was, in fact, superior.

 Ciciro wrote:
I wouldn't really call it a superiority complex seeing as he was, in fact, superior.

Not really... in most anyway that matters. He had worse plans then most, worse leadership, worse being a person... if he wasn't a punch of psykers stapled together you could blame him for more, and he wouldn't be magic enough to not have to explain himself. You can at least blame him for the vast... vast majority of everything wrong with the 40K setting.

"So guys, guys... I know chaos can corrupt everything. But, stay with me, I am going to make supermen and strap them in as much armor and tech as I can. Then I am going to pretend chaos isn't a thing. It will totally work, and none of them will get corrupted or anything. Nope because... no real reason besides I hope it won't happen."

As to the actual question of the thread: He had a superiority complex in the same way most of us breath. LBJ intimidated people by making them watch him poop. Big E would probably just start pooping on you as he would see is customary of such a superior being. He really deserved to get backstabbed sooner.

The problem the Emperor had was that he lost perspective, he focused on his galaxy spanning strategic masterpiece to deal with Chaos, but in doing so lost sight of humanity and the shorter term implications.

And again the heretics paint our great Lord in the most unfavourable way possible.
Did he have a complex? Yes. Because he WAS.

Ever seen the Watchmen? I kinda depict the Emperor as Dr. Manhatten. After living for 38k years he grew "detached" from humanity. He is wise, he is ubersmart, he has, as said, plans that span millenia.
He still loves humanity and cares deeply for it, but he lost his "sociality", his primal understanding on how humans work. He just cannot fathom how others may react the way they do, since he is "so far above them".
Just like Dr. Manhattan who retreats to Mars. It makes sense, in a kind of way.

Hard to say what's precisely going on in the mind of a more than human guy millennia old.

To a certain extent he really was superior and vastly more experienced than everybody else could have possibly be between the humans, and to the way I understood The Emperor as a character acting like he did was more a calculated choice to reinforce his rule over everybody than a real trait of his personality.

Anyway it all retorted against him in the end, so it clearly wasn't the best of the choices.

LordDavenport wrote:

 Ciciro wrote:
I wouldn't really call it a superiority complex seeing as he was, in fact, superior.

Not really... in most anyway that matters. He had worse plans then most, worse leadership, worse being a person... if he wasn't a punch of psykers stapled together you could blame him for more, and he wouldn't be magic enough to not have to explain himself. You can at least blame him for the vast... vast majority of everything wrong with the 40K setting.

"So guys, guys... I know chaos can corrupt everything. But, stay with me, I am going to make supermen and strap them in as much armor and tech as I can. Then I am going to pretend chaos isn't a thing. It will totally work, and none of them will get corrupted or anything. Nope because... no real reason besides I hope it won't happen."

As to the actual question of the thread: He had a superiority complex in the same way most of us breath. LBJ intimidated people by making them watch him poop. Big E would probably just start pooping on you as he would see is customary of such a superior being. He really deserved to get backstabbed sooner.

Of course he was superior...if it wasn't for him Humanity wouldn't exist PERIOD

he is the most powerful Psyker of humanity, if not the galaxy

your saying he wasn;'t superior

get out of here

what human could match him

LightKing wrote:

Of course he was superior...if it wasn't for him Humanity wouldn't exist PERIOD

he is the most powerful Psyker of humanity, if not the galaxy

your saying he wasn't superior

get out of here

what human could match him

Apparently Horus... had to get his strongest primarch to suidicde attack horus to get even a shot, and nearly died in the proses.

Also, remember, he is cheating at magic by being a bunch of shamans stapled together(helps explain his assholish and erratic behavior.) He is really closer to a deamon host then a human at this point. I would honestly just give the title of "best human psyker" to Arhiman. He made his legion undying baddasses, while just being a space marine... as a cure for chaosspawnitis.

And calling him superior would require him acting in the least bit superior, which wouldn't require constantly boosting his own ego like he does all... the... freaking... time. His entire raising of humanity was an over the top ego trip that wasn't necessary by any stretch of the imagination.

You know what might have let me call him superior? If he had taken one for the team and let himself be considered a god. That is actually semi effective at fighting chaos, and can be removed once the old gods were dead. But no, mister "for me to be compinsating this hard my dick has to be of negative length" emprah goes "guys, I am not a god. I may be a few old gods stapled together, but I am currently not a god. Not in any way... you staring at my halo? Thats a medical condition, stop being rude. Man... I could use some wine right now and this water is kinda bland... bam, there we go."

But seriously, the man was slightly superior to a rat but only if we are being polite.

Do you think he might have been trying to make up for something?

LordDavenport wrote:

LightKing wrote:

Of course he was superior...if it wasn't for him Humanity wouldn't exist PERIOD

he is the most powerful Psyker of humanity, if not the galaxy

your saying he wasn't superior

get out of here

what human could match him

Apparently Horus... had to get his strongest primarch to suidicde attack horus to get even a shot, and nearly died in the proses.

Also, remember, he is cheating at magic by being a bunch of shamans stapled together(helps explain his assholish and erratic behavior.) He is really closer to a deamon host then a human at this point. I would honestly just give the title of "best human psyker" to Arhiman. He made his legion undying baddasses, while just being a space marine... as a cure for chaosspawnitis.

And calling him superior would require him acting in the least bit superior, which wouldn't require constantly boosting his own ego like he does all... the... freaking... time. His entire raising of humanity was an over the top ego trip that wasn't necessary by any stretch of the imagination.

You know what might have let me call him superior? If he had taken one for the team and let himself be considered a god. That is actually semi effective at fighting chaos, and can be removed once the old gods were dead. But no, mister "for me to be compinsating this hard my dick has to be of negative length" emprah goes "guys, I am not a god. I may be a few old gods stapled together, but I am currently not a god. Not in any way... you staring at my halo? Thats a medical condition, stop being rude. Man... I could use some wine right now and this water is kinda bland... bam, there we go."

But seriously, the man was slightly superior to a rat but only if we are being polite.

lol Horus had to be amped by the 4 chaos gods and even then the emperor was holding back the whole time until the last strike

its not "cheating" the shamans added all there power into 1 human being


ahriman is no where near the power of the emperor

how is it a ego trip..if it wasn't for the emperor, humanity would of crumbled, during the dark age of technology


do you even read the lore

So guys, guys... I know chaos can corrupt everything. But, stay with me, I am going to make supermen and strap them in as much armor and tech as I can. Then I am going to pretend chaos isn't a thing. It will totally work, and none of them will get corrupted or anything. Nope because... no real reason besides I hope it won't happen."

Hahaha!

LightKing wrote:

lol Horus had to be amped by the 4 chaos gods and even then the emperor was holding back the whole time until the last strike

And the emperor is amped on the power of a number of shamans. It is like saying "Well see, he used a gun in a gun fight, so obviously that isn't a fair comparison." A fight he really won... he took down the emperor and the impirium is falling apart.

its not "cheating" the shamans added all there power into 1 human being

Then we should consider beings amped on similar levels of magic. Magus could now probably out magic him, and Tzzeench obviously out plotted him.

ahriman is no where near the power of the emperor

Point to one legitimately impressive bits of magic the emperor set up that weren't just throwing power at the problem? The astronomicom is a just shoving power into a big ball. The golden thrown couldn't handle even a tiny amount of interfirance. The ruberic? That was impressive. An entire legion is now unkilable in the long term, and they don't have to deal with turning into spawn.

how is it a ego trip..if it wasn't for the emperor, humanity would of crumbled, during the dark age of technology

Because obviously, people can't do anything for ourselves! What a ridicules idea. It is not like Humanity could have picked itself up. No, we always need a messiah figure.

do you even read the lore

Yes... it is very poorly written, by a really large number of people making it inherently self contradictory. To make it worse, the character of Emprah was built backwards from a stupid end point... so I have to forgive the writers for having a terrible job to do.

In all honestly I like to pretend the emperor was just a warlord and fairly powerful psyker with issues. It makes all the activly stupid and vindictive stuff he did make sense. Because you know what an ancient being would be able to do? Diplomacy, plotting, and actually good plans. A mortal emprah could be applauded for doing all he did, and can be forgiven for not planning everything out. Space marines are still a terrible idea, but they are something a man might want to make.

And the emperor is amped on the power of a number of shamans. It is like saying "Well see, he used a gun in a gun fight, so obviously that isn't a fair comparison." A fight he really won... he took down the emperor and the impirium is falling apart.

Well.... no. The Emperor is not "amped on" the power of multiple shamans. He *is* the reincarnation of those shamans in one body. Without those shamans, he doesn't exist. There is no singular entity/mind/person/being without those shamans.

Not so with Horus. He was, obviously, a Primarch and a powerful warrior in his own right, but then became moreso with the boon of Chaos Undivided... but it was definitely a buff that was a secondary add-on to his already-considerable power level.

The astronomicom is a just shoving power into a big ball. The golden thrown couldn't handle even a tiny amount of interfirance. The ruberic? That was impressive. An entire legion is now unkilable in the long term, and they don't have to deal with turning into spawn.

The Astronomicon is not the Emperor. He just guides it. He did not build the Golden Throne, he found it.

The Rubric was a failure. It was by mere chance (that is, Tzeentch's design) that what was left over after that failure was in any way usable.

Point to one legitimately impressive bits of magic the emperor set up that weren't just throwing power at the problem?

The Emperor is a psyker, not a sorcerer. There is a difference.

However, to indicate something impressive the Emperor did?

He beat the piss out of the C'Tan called The Void Dragon while wearing iron armor and wielding an iron sword, and then drug its reeling ass to Mars while riding a horse.

Because obviously, people can't do anything for ourselves! What a ridicules idea. It is not like Humanity could have picked itself up. No, we always need a messiah figure.

Correct. Humanity is a band of fairly stupid apes, in the main.

Then we should consider beings amped on similar levels of magic. Magus could now probably out magic him, and Tzzeench obviously out plotted him.

Ahriman could out-sorcery him, yes, because the Emperor is, again, not a sorcerer. On purely psychic terms? No. Neither Ahriman nor Magnus equal the Emperor's psychic might.

Tzeentch? Tzeentch is a god. The Emperor may only possibly be a god.

Because you know what an ancient being would be able to do? Diplomacy, plotting, and actually good plans.

Or just psychically control people into doing his will and know that what he's doing will work out, because he can see the future.

 Psienesis wrote:

Well.... no. The Emperor is not "amped on" the power of multiple shamans. He *is* the reincarnation of those shamans in one body. Without those shamans, he doesn't exist. There is no singular entity/mind/person/being without those shamans.

Not so with Horus. He was, obviously, a Primarch and a powerful warrior in his own right, but then became moreso with the boon of Chaos Undivided... but it was definitely a buff that was a secondary add-on to his already-considerable power level.

It does seem similar though. More then one power entity stuffed into one body. Horus is just sorta being one of those shammans then, with more stapled on afterward. Though this is running straight into a long semantic argument. I ceed the point, but still would argue it isn't reasonable to discount empowered Horus when compared to Big E.

The Astronomicon is not the Emperor. He just guides it. He did not build the Golden Throne, he found it.

The Rubric was a failure. It was by mere chance (that is, Tzeentch's design) that what was left over after that failure was in any way usable.

It is always great to have a being of infinite power making infinite plans backing you(sort of).

Everything you do was planed for, and is useful.

The Emperor is a psyker, not a sorcerer. There is a difference.

However, to indicate something impressive the Emperor did?

He beat the piss out of the C'Tan called The Void Dragon while wearing iron armor and wielding an iron sword, and then drug its reeling ass to Mars while riding a horse.

That is suggested to be an allegory. Though, yeah, impressive.

Correct. Humanity is a band of fairly stupid apes, in the main.

Which is why we are still hunting in the nude, in Africa. I tend to be less pessimistic,

Or just psychically control people into doing his will and know that what he's doing will work out, because he can see the future.

Again, reasons I just assume he is roughly on power level with a gray knight. Was the result of a despot wanting the perfect successor, and building effectively a space marine with psyker powers from scratch using his genetics as a base. This creature took over, made more of itself, and conquered everything. Still has iffy social skills, and a number of mental issues. Retains its sires trust issues, leading to tons of really terrible decisions.

There, now he works.

LordDavenport wrote:




Because you know what an ancient being would be able to do? Diplomacy, plotting, and actually good plans.

Points at Old ones.
Points at C'Tan



Good Plans are impossible if a GW employee writes you.

It does seem similar though. More then one power entity stuffed into one body. Horus is just sorta being one of those shammans then, with more stapled on afterward. Though this is running straight into a long semantic argument. I ceed the point, but still would argue it isn't reasonable to discount empowered Horus when compared to Big E.

But it's not. This is like pitting, say, a rhinocerous against a Space Marine.... except the Space Marine doesn't have any of his implants or genetic upgrades.

So what you're left with is a regular puny kid against one of the killingest animals in Africa.

Which is why we are still hunting in the nude, in Africa. I tend to be less pessimistic,

Because living as corporate drones in consumerist societies is a mark of civilization.

Again, reasons I just assume he is roughly on power level with a gray knight. Was the result of a despot wanting the perfect successor, and building effectively a space marine with psyker powers from scratch using his genetics as a base. This creature took over, made more of itself, and conquered everything. Still has iffy social skills, and a number of mental issues. Retains its sires trust issues, leading to tons of really terrible decisions.

GK don't force entire SM Legions and their Primarch to kneel at their approach.

The Emperor was most certainly a despot and a tyrant, make no mistake. He was also the most powerful human psyker to ever live (possibly *the* most powerful psyker, bar none) and lifted Humanity out of the ashes of the Age of Strife and brought them to the edge of a golden age... as is the case with such things, certain choices were gambles, gambles that didn't pay off, in the end, but the other option carried with it the same risks.

Knowledge is power, guard it well.

 Psienesis wrote:

But it's not. This is like pitting, say, a rhinocerous against a Space Marine.... except the Space Marine doesn't have any of his implants or genetic upgrades.

So what you're left with is a regular puny kid against one of the killingest animals in Africa.

Who then beats the rhinoceros into a coma?

Because living as corporate drones in consumerist societies is a mark of civilization.

Drastically lower infant mortality rates is. Also a semi functioning space program is pretty sweet, but the less dead baby thing is pretty big.

You can't say with a straight face that modern society isn't even slightly advanced, while the impirium is. We can all play the "well it would be better if we were all still apes" card, but it removes your ability to suggest any other culture is better.

GK don't force entire SM Legions and their Primarch to kneel at their approach.

The Emperor was most certainly a despot and a tyrant, make no mistake. He was also the most powerful human psyker to ever live (possibly *the* most powerful psyker, bar none) and lifted Humanity out of the ashes of the Age of Strife and brought them to the edge of a golden age... as is the case with such things, certain choices were gambles, gambles that didn't pay off, in the end, but the other option carried with it the same risks.

Why were primarch's ever a good idea? Leaders yes, but normal marines can manage that.

He had them kneel like any despot makes men kneel, with some very clever bits of psychology and a habit of killing people that displease him. This is my head canon, not normal canon. It is an odd place.

Knowledge is power, guard it well.

You can't use it if your dead, so share it. Basic rule of how a real utopian society, and how to make science run.

Who then beats the rhinoceros into a coma?

No, because even the best kids who become Space Marines usually kill other kids, not one-ton killing machine animals.

The comparison is a thing who has things done to it to make it better (the Space Marine process and training) vs a thing that just *is*. The rhinoceros doesn't need anything other than being a rhinoceros to be a badass.

Same with the Emperor. He didn't need to be anything more than what he was to be ultra-badass. Horus needed to be both a Primarch and *then* also needed to have the buffs of all 4 Chaos Gods (and probably a whole bunch of second-stringers we're not told about) to have a chance... and he still failed. Not even a tried and failed situation, but a tried-and-died-so-hard-his-very-soul-was-obliterated.

You can't say with a straight face that modern society isn't even slightly advanced, while the impirium is. We can all play the "well it would be better if we were all still apes" card, but it removes your ability to suggest any other culture is better.

It doesn't matter how shiny our toys are, those are not the true signs of civilization. The Aztecs were a comparatively advanced civilization (only 2 very short steps between them and the Spaniards that conquered them, tech-wise), despite having a Copper Age tech-base.

Our brains, our higher cognitive functions, the way we relate to one another, has not changed (in the real world) in some 2500 years, at the very least. We are, in many ways, and most assuredly in all the ways that truly matter, the exact same people as that naked tribesman stalking prey across the African savannah.

The society of 40K is merely a dark reflection of our own, and thusly has also not changed one iota from now to then.

You can't use it if your dead, so share it. Basic rule of how a real utopian society, and how to make science run.

Spoken like a true heretic... or one so hopelessly naive that they do not understand that even the simple knowledge of certain forces in the galaxy is enough to damn your immortal soul.

This was the Emperor's gamble. He could tell people about Chaos, warn them until he was blue in the face... and still people would go to willingly serve it. If you look at it from the perspective of modern-day religions, as much as preachers in the pulpit preach against sin and warn people about the fires of Hell and all that... lots of people still go out and willfully sin. Shoot, some even go out and actively join the Church of Satan. Same deal in 40K.

So the other option is to keep them entirely ignorant. "What they don't know won't hurt them" sort of deal. Obviously, this did not work out, either, but it was, as I said, a gamble... one that didn't pan out, but then gambles rarely do. However, we can only guess at how many servants this forced ignorance denied the Arch-Enemy.

 Psienesis wrote:

No, because even the best kids who become Space Marines usually kill other kids, not one-ton killing machine animals.

The comparison is a thing who has things done to it to make it better (the Space Marine process and training) vs a thing that just *is*. The rhinoceros doesn't need anything other than being a rhinoceros to be a badass.

Same with the Emperor. He didn't need to be anything more than what he was to be ultra-badass. Horus needed to be both a Primarch and *then* also needed to have the buffs of all 4 Chaos Gods (and probably a whole bunch of second-stringers we're not told about) to have a chance... and he still failed. Not even a tried and failed situation, but a tried-and-died-so-hard-his-very-soul-was-obliterated.

I would counter that the Emperor is just as much a construct, just done much... much further in advance. Or is the diffrince to you that he was always that strong, so that is inherently better? Because then we are running straight at ableist stupidity.

Also... Horus still won. The impirium is going to fall, and the Emperor is as good as dead.

It doesn't matter how shiny our toys are, those are not the true signs of civilization. The Aztecs were a comparatively advanced civilization (only 2 very short steps between them and the Spaniards that conquered them, tech-wise), despite having a Copper Age tech-base.

Our brains, our higher cognitive functions, the way we relate to one another, has not changed (in the real world) in some 2500 years, at the very least. We are, in many ways, and most assuredly in all the ways that truly matter, the exact same people as that naked tribesman stalking prey across the African savannah.

The society of 40K is merely a dark reflection of our own, and thusly has also not changed one iota from now to then.

Not... really. You are discounting all the advances of the social sciences. Hell, your even discounting the long term autodomestication of the human race. Hell the last hundred years has seen us get more introspective and understanding. Hell, the internet gives entirely new ways to relate to others.

Really, if the Emperor didn't decide he needed to ego trip himself into ruling everything... the age of strife was winding down, and a galixy wide society would have probably started up. Well... might have taken a few years to get up to tech level, but in the long term all he did was speed it up.

Spoken like a true heretic... or one so hopelessly naive that they do not understand that even the simple knowledge of certain forces in the galaxy is enough to damn your immortal soul.

This was the Emperor's gamble. He could tell people about Chaos, warn them until he was blue in the face... and still people would go to willingly serve it. If you look at it from the perspective of modern-day religions, as much as preachers in the pulpit preach against sin and warn people about the fires of Hell and all that... lots of people still go out and willfully sin. Shoot, some even go out and actively join the Church of Satan. Same deal in 40K.

So the other option is to keep them entirely ignorant. "What they don't know won't hurt them" sort of deal. Obviously, this did not work out, either, but it was, as I said, a gamble... one that didn't pan out, but then gambles rarely do. However, we can only guess at how many servants this forced ignorance denied the Arch-Enemy.

But sinning in the real world dosn't summon literal deamons. Thing a preacher can't do: Summon a devil, have it eat a dude, then blow it up with mind bullets. In 40K the fires of hell are literal fires that can be summoned taking the uncertainty out of the situation. You know those endless stories about how hiding the truth is wrong and hurts people? Well they were right. Knowing is half the battle. You will always lose to the unknown foe. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

Or is the diffrince to you that he was always that strong, so that is inherently better?

Precisely. The incarnation of all of those shamans into one being is what makes the Emperor at all. It isn't what makes him better, stronger, wiser, faster or whatever... all of those things are part-and-parcel of his very being.

If you stripped away that aspect of him (the incarnation of the shamans) you would be left with absolutely nothing, as without those incarnates, he doesn't exist. He is not a regular dude (or even a dude who wasn't at all normal) invested with a great degree of power by an outside party, he *is* all those shamans condensed into one being.

Horus is not in the same boat. Strip away the "buffs" of the Chaos Gods, and you're left with the Primarch he was before his fall from grace.

But sinning in the real world dosn't summon literal deamons. Thing a preacher can't do: Summon a devil, have it eat a dude, then blow it up with mind bullets. In 40K the fires of hell are literal fires that can be summoned taking the uncertainty out of the situation. You know those endless stories about how hiding the truth is wrong and hurts people? Well they were right. Knowing is half the battle. You will always lose to the unknown foe. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

And IRL, maybe the fires of Hell are real, but we lack solid evidence of them. Proof denies faith, after all.

The same thing is true for the average citizen in 40K. While the Ecclesiarchy can preach all they want about Chaos and Heresy and such from the pulpit... they can't, 99.99999% of the time prove it.

The Emperor could have told the Primarchs and such about Chaos... but it still wouldn't have mattered. It would have been knowledge that, as would later be shown, would tempt half his sons away from him anyway. It doesn't matter if he summons some daemon before them and blows it away with mind-bullets, half his sons would have been thinking "I want to do that, because I can make use of that power".... and those uses would have been particular to each of those Primarchs of course, but the seed would have been planted by the very knowledge of its existence, and thus the Heresy would happen anyway.

 Psienesis wrote:

Precisely. The incarnation of all of those shamans into one being is what makes the Emperor at all. It isn't what makes him better, stronger, wiser, faster or whatever... all of those things are part-and-parcel of his very being.

If you stripped away that aspect of him (the incarnation of the shamans) you would be left with absolutely nothing, as without those incarnates, he doesn't exist. He is not a regular dude (or even a dude who wasn't at all normal) invested with a great degree of power by an outside party, he *is* all those shamans condensed into one being.

Horus is not in the same boat. Strip away the "buffs" of the Chaos Gods, and you're left with the Primarch he was before his fall from grace.

Ok, so it is ableist stupidity. Good to know.

And IRL, maybe the fires of Hell are real, but we lack solid evidence of them. Proof denies faith, after all.

The same thing is true for the average citizen in 40K. While the Ecclesiarchy can preach all they want about Chaos and Heresy and such from the pulpit... they can't, 99.99999% of the time prove it.

The Emperor could have told the Primarchs and such about Chaos... but it still wouldn't have mattered. It would have been knowledge that, as would later be shown, would tempt half his sons away from him anyway. It doesn't matter if he summons some daemon before them and blows it away with mind-bullets, half his sons would have been thinking "I want to do that, because I can make use of that power".... and those uses would have been particular to each of those Primarchs of course, but the seed would have been planted by the very knowledge of its existence, and thus the Heresy would happen anyway.

This is suggesting that people aren't at least semi rational. But hell... he could read minds. He could have told them about chaos, and soul shattered those that might be tempted. Then the Heresy wouldn't have happened because the Primarchs that thought it was a good idea are a red smear. Hell... basic screenings could probably be worked out.

Semi-rational people can still worship gods.... especially gods that leave absolutely no room for doubt that they both exist *and* are incredibly powerful and malefic.

It took the Emperor personally witnessing the death of Pious at the hand of Horus to move him to destroy his favored son. It is *highly* unlikely that the belief that they might/would/will/had betray him would move him to destroy them standing there.

Shoot, he didn't even send Russ to kill the Thousand Sons, he just sent Russ to get Magnus and bring him to Terra. The Burning of Prospero was orchestrated by Horus, not the Emperor.

 Psienesis wrote:

Correct. Humanity is a band of fairly stupid apes, in the main.

I won't bother to argue with this incredibly bitter and cynical RL view, but there is actually fluff that knocks down your argument that humanity wouldn't recover from the the Age of Strife (BTW, the Dark Age of Technology was, if anything, mankind's golden age, don't get the two confused). There were were several civilizations that the Emp encountered on his Great Crusade that were superior culturally and technologically to anything the Imperium had then or has now.

The Interex: A technologically advanced race of humans that knew about Chaos and were able to resist, and even make use of it. They allied with various xenos races and reaped MANY benefits from these alliances. They had centaur shaped power armor, bows that fired bolts capable of punching through power armor, and automated drones with advanced AI, none of which the Imperium can replicate.

47-16: An advanced world with force fields and a large number of AI war machines

Araneus Continuity: Had access to ancient Warp gates that let them safely warp travel and rule over six systems. Ruled by a "technonobility". Had xenos allies.

Avenians- Abhumans capable of all kinds of weird architectural feats. Able to tame giant birds and use them in combat.

Diasporex- A human and alien nomad civilization, good enough at naval warfare to give Imperial forces a run for their money

The ONLY advantages that the Imperium had over these civilizations were numbers and a far more militarized society. They were all doing just fine without Empy. Instead of trying to learn from them and form an alliance, the Emp destroyed EVERYTHING, because his "my way or the highway" attitude wouldn't allow him to make even the smallest concession. He didn't even have his troops recover any technology and try to reverse engineer it because he was either too dumb, too arrogant, or wanted to keep humanity ignorant and primitive so he could lord over it better. If the Emp had formed an alliance with these civilizations, humanity would be in far better shape today. AND WHY THIS DOGMATIC INSISTENCE ON GENOCIDE OF ALL INTELLIGENT ALIENS, EVEN THE ONES THAT WERE FRIENDLY?!

You can argue about the Emp's goals all you want to, but before claiming that he was SOOOO much smarter and better than us plebes, maybe you should take a look at the results. His plan failed. It failed HARD. Chaos is not only still around, but stronger than ever. Half his chosen sons rebelled and actively serve Chaos. The other half fight for an Imperium that is almost the complete opposite of what he wanted, and even that is falling apart at the seams. He's a vegetable sitting on a golden toilet. Why couldn't he even maintain the trust and loyalty of the one closest to him? Why did he BLATANTLY IGNORE multiple warnings and obvious signs of the approaching Horus Heresy and get caught with his pants down?
If the Emp was SOOO smart, why did he so completely and utterly fail?

 fallinq wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Correct. Humanity is a band of fairly stupid apes, in the main.

I won't bother to argue with this incredibly bitter and cynical RL view, but there is actually fluff that knocks down your argument that humanity wouldn't recover from the the Age of Strife (BTW, the Dark Age of Technology was, if anything, mankind's golden age, don't get the two confused). There were were several civilizations that the Emp encountered on his Great Crusade that were superior culturally and technologically to anything the Imperium had then or has now.

The Interex: A technologically advanced race of humans that knew about Chaos and were able to resist, and even make use of it. They allied with various xenos races and reaped MANY benefits from these alliances. They had centaur shaped power armor, bows that fired bolts capable of punching through power armor, and automated drones with advanced AI, none of which the Imperium can replicate.

47-16: An advanced world with force fields and a large number of AI war machines

Araneus Continuity: Had access to ancient Warp gates that let them safely warp travel and rule over six systems. Ruled by a "technonobility". Had xenos allies.

Avenians- Abhumans capable of all kinds of weird architectural feats. Able to tame giant birds and use them in combat.

Diasporex- A human and alien nomad civilization, good enough at naval warfare to give Imperial forces a run for their money

The ONLY advantages that the Imperium had over these civilizations were numbers and a far more militarized society. They were all doing just fine without Empy. Instead of trying to learn from them and form an alliance, the Emp destroyed EVERYTHING, because his "my way or the highway" attitude wouldn't allow him to make even the smallest concession. He didn't even have his troops recover any technology and try to reverse engineer it because he was either too dumb, too arrogant, or wanted to keep humanity ignorant and primitive so he could lord over it better. If the Emp had formed an alliance with these civilizations, humanity would be in far better shape today. AND WHY THIS DOGMATIC INSISTENCE ON GENOCIDE OF ALL INTELLIGENT ALIENS, EVEN THE ONES THAT WERE FRIENDLY?!

You can argue about the Emp's goals all you want to, but before claiming that he was SOOOO much smarter and better than us plebes, maybe you should take a look at the results. His plan failed. It failed HARD. Chaos is not only still around, but stronger than ever. Half his chosen sons rebelled and actively serve Chaos. The other half fight for an Imperium that is almost the complete opposite of what he wanted, and even that is falling apart at the seams. He's a vegetable sitting on a golden toilet. Why couldn't he even maintain the trust and loyalty of the one closest to him? Why did he BLATANTLY IGNORE multiple warnings and obvious signs of the approaching Horus Heresy and get caught with his pants down?
If the Emp was SOOO smart, why did he so completely and utterly fail?

Because the smartest people tend to overthink things.

 Ciciro wrote:
Because the smartest people tend to overthink things.

I wouldn't call the writers of GW the smartest people.

As I said some were in this conversation, all the problems I have with the emperor stem from limited design space and a predetermined end goal. The idea of an emperor on a throne was cool. The impirium is interesting and distopian. The stuff that people made up to give this history is generally terrible. I have yet to see any "ancient" history of 40k that I liked that wasn't fan made.

The Last Church has the protagonist explicitly notice that the Emperor was so far above humanity that he couldn't comprehend the typical human's emotional needs (and thus, comprehend that he could be wrong in this area).