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I did not say that to imply he was not like Samus. I said that because Melissia used the wrong pronoun .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
I did not say that to imply he was not like Samus. I said that because Melissia used the wrong pronoun .
Nah. See, Samus was a woman mistaken for a guy (until she took her armor off at the end of the first game). Ezreal is a guy whom Melissia apparently mistook for a woman. Hence the anti-Samus comment.
OH you kidder, that's clearly not true. I mean have you looked at her?
She's one of the prettiest ladies in League.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/15 18:07:06
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: OH you kidder, that's clearly not true. I mean have you looked at her?
She's one of the prettiest ladies in League.
No really, the bio says so!
Oh, wait, you were kidding, right? Then let me present you the totally male Prince Ne Zha :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncGeBYyt-Vc At first I thought Smite had a non-sexualized goddess .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Did they really use that in official advertisement?
Well, it depends on how you define advertisement. It wasn't printed on any posters ... I think. But they pretty much hyped about it in every single interview they gave.
"It's a mature game. Hyboria is a brutal world. It's savage. It's violent. It's sexy. There's no pink hearts and pretty fireballs. Heads will roll! We have boobs in our game!"
"See? It's good to be a healer. You have a naked lady buffing you." -- Jorgen Thereldsen, Product Director, Funcom, on E3 2007
Needless to say, they also had a lot of booth babes there, but I suppose this has become a sad fact of the gaming industry. I'm not sure I'd really consider this "mature", though.
Also, I read up on that boob shrinkage story. Their forum post on the .. issue was hilarious - no idea if the moderator was serious or amused.
"Funcom can confirm that some of the female models in the game have had the size of their breasts changed ... this is due to an unintended change in data that was introduced in an earlier patch, data which controls the so-called morph values associated with character models and the size of their respective body parts. We are working on a fix for this and your breasts should be back to normal soon."
To be clear, though, I don't want to bash on AoC. Certainly there are many other examples of this trend out there that are notably worse. But I also pretty much consider breasts a silly, hypocritical non-issue in general ("oh my god, it's the exact same bodypart a male has, just inflated! quick you must hide it this instant! ... but please keep teasing us you slut"), so it may depend on one's perspective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/15 19:33:33
Lynata wrote: Needless to say, they also had a lot of booth babes there, but I suppose this has become a sad fact of the gaming industry. I'm not sure I'd really consider this "mature", though.
My understanding is that the various video game trade shows are trying to cut back on the number of booth babes. Or at least they were a few years ago.
On the other hand, I read a short bit of an article about a recent Chinese game trade show, and the minimum number of booth babes in any given booth was 25. Most of the booths had significantly more. That's apparently the norm for the game trade shows in that country.
Eumerin wrote:My understanding is that the various video game trade shows are trying to cut back on the number of booth babes. Or at least they were a few years ago.
Hmm, sounds like something worth reading up on. I'd certainly welcome the industry becoming less shallow, focusing more on the actual product than trying to lure potential customers with free strippers.
Really, the low point, from personal experience, was gamescom last year where some vocal showmaster was tossing the worn t-shirts of his booth babes - each one intentionally rubbed across their sweaty, bikini-covered chests - into the cheering male audience. It looked like something in-between a feeding frenzy and a slave auction, and actually made me feel ashamed to be in the same hall and business.
Eumerin wrote:On the other hand, I read a short bit of an article about a recent Chinese game trade show, and the minimum number of booth babes in any given booth was 25. Most of the booths had significantly more. That's apparently the norm for the game trade shows in that country.
It certainly fits to what is suggested in this thread's opening post, or the Counterstrike Online 2 (developed for the Korean market) screenshots I posted earlier. I guess they may just be lagging a bit behind when it comes to gender equality in cultural practice. They may have similar laws, but tradition seems to be a lot stronger and slow to change, and thus may be a very conservative force affecting expectations and stereotypes. The western world seems a bit more open to the possibility of change, which I assume is a result of the various countries' fast-paced historical developments over the last centuries, as well as strong transnational influences / cultural exchange.
Eumerin wrote:My understanding is that the various video game trade shows are trying to cut back on the number of booth babes. Or at least they were a few years ago.
Hmm, sounds like something worth reading up on. I'd certainly welcome the industry becoming less shallow, focusing more on the actual product than trying to lure potential customers with free strippers.
Really, the low point, from personal experience, was gamescom last year where some vocal showmaster was tossing the worn t-shirts of his booth babes - each one intentionally rubbed across their sweaty, bikini-covered chests - into the cheering male audience. It looked like something in-between a feeding frenzy and a slave auction, and actually made me feel ashamed to be in the same hall and business. .
Sounds like Gamescom isn't going that route. Or the attempt was a brief flash in the pan that didn't survive the year.
And... okay... it's a shirt. That came from someone I don't know. And will probably never know.
Eumerin wrote: On the other hand, I read a short bit of an article about a recent Chinese game trade show, and the minimum number of booth babes in any given booth was 25. Most of the booths had significantly more. That's apparently the norm for the game trade shows in that country.
When I was in South Korea, so about 4 years ago, I was invited to some big tech fair where on the lower level you have small companies and research teams like the one I was doing an internship on, and on top you had big companies. There were some booth babe to advertise some car. I must still have pictures of that somewhere. That felt really weird.
Lynata wrote: But I also pretty much consider breasts a silly, hypocritical non-issue in general ("oh my god, it's the exact same bodypart a male has, just inflated! quick you must hide it this instant! ... but please keep teasing us you slut"), so it may depend on one's perspective.
If breast are perfectly suitable for children movies (and they are - usual warning: this is the trailer for a movie for young children. If you are offended by children's movie that feature barechested women, do not click) then they must be suitable for grown men and women movies too.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Eumerin wrote: On the other hand, I read a short bit of an article about a recent Chinese game trade show, and the minimum number of booth babes in any given booth was 25. Most of the booths had significantly more. That's apparently the norm for the game trade shows in that country.
When I was in South Korea, so about 4 years ago, I was invited to some big tech fair where on the lower level you have small companies and research teams like the one I was doing an internship on, and on top you had big companies. There were some booth babe to advertise some car. I must still have pictures of that somewhere. That felt really weird.
I've seen pictures of them. But I attended a car show once here in the US well over a decade ago, and I have a vague recollection of much better dressed "booth babes" - i.e. women who were wearing significantly more than form-fitting tank tops and short shorts - who were handing out the company literature. Just because they're wearing slacks doesn't mean that they aren't a booth babe.
Lynata wrote: But I also pretty much consider breasts a silly, hypocritical non-issue in general ("oh my god, it's the exact same bodypart a male has, just inflated! quick you must hide it this instant! ... but please keep teasing us you slut"), so it may depend on one's perspective.
If breast are perfectly suitable for children movies (and they are - usual warning: this is the trailer for a movie for young children. If you are offended by children's movie that feature barechested women, do not click) then they must be suitable for grown men and women movies too.
There was a political cartoon back when AIDS was at its peak, and people thought that the STD scare might put a crimp on promiscuity. It basically ran like this - "Sex in the '50s - Pictures in National Geographic. Sex in the '60s - Free-love hippies. Sex in the '70s - (can't remember this one - something disco related?). Sex in the '80s - CEO in a limo with a woman's leg hanging out the window. Sex in the '90s - Pictures in National Geographic."
Slarg232 wrote: Also, you can use Lulu to point out that LoL is Diverse, but I hardly call 3 Yordles, 1 child, and the rest with Boobs bigger than their heads. Where is the Fat Chick? The Ugly Chick?
Dragon Age: Inquisition. It's going to be right up your alley, with its intentionally unattractive females.
I think people massively overestimate the number of female gamers who have an issue with playing cheesecake. I'm still waiting for someone to do a study on giving women the choice between choosing a pretty, sexy avatar and a plain one. I think it would probably pretty closely mirror the results of giving men a choice between a hulked-out ass-kicker avatar and Joe Average.
Slarg232 wrote: Also, you can use Lulu to point out that LoL is Diverse, but I hardly call 3 Yordles, 1 child, and the rest with Boobs bigger than their heads. Where is the Fat Chick? The Ugly Chick?
Dragon Age: Inquisition. It's going to be right up your alley, with its intentionally unattractive females.
I think people massively overestimate the number of female gamers who have an issue with playing cheesecake. I'm still waiting for someone to do a study on giving women the choice between choosing a pretty, sexy avatar and a plain one. I think it would probably pretty closely mirror the results of giving men a choice between a hulked-out ass-kicker avatar and Joe Average.
Generally the first character you play is generic cheesecake, but after a few characters in you start rolling more and more diverse characters. See there is nothing wrong with sexy is is just that sexy is only one style and people want many styles. Diversity is nice.
Slarg232 wrote: Also, you can use Lulu to point out that LoL is Diverse, but I hardly call 3 Yordles, 1 child, and the rest with Boobs bigger than their heads. Where is the Fat Chick? The Ugly Chick?
Dragon Age: Inquisition. It's going to be right up your alley, with its intentionally unattractive females.
I think people massively overestimate the number of female gamers who have an issue with playing cheesecake. I'm still waiting for someone to do a study on giving women the choice between choosing a pretty, sexy avatar and a plain one. I think it would probably pretty closely mirror the results of giving men a choice between a hulked-out ass-kicker avatar and Joe Average.
And this is why forcing a conversation into another thread is dumb:
Yeah, Aphrodite being sexualized is a no-brainer. The rest of the crew should not, at least not all of them…
I mean, just compare the body types of all the gods, and of all the goddess. Does Apolo look like Hercules with different clothes? Not really… Female gods have basically all the same body build, except of course Scylla because she is a young girl. You do not get a very fat one like Bacchus or Kumbhakarna, you do not get a very buff one like Hercules, or a lean one like Apollo, or a weird one like Ah Muzen Cab, …
Kali, for instance, was a perfect occasion to propose something different. But no, let us keep the same body shape for everyone, because we want them as uniform supermodels…
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
nomotog wrote: Generally the first character you play is generic cheesecake, but after a few characters in you start rolling more and more diverse characters. See there is nothing wrong with sexy is is just that sexy is only one style and people want many styles. Diversity is nice.
Diversity is indeed nice, save for when it's mandated. This whole topic reminds me a bit of the people currently screaming at George RR Martin for not including any gay sex scenes in his books.
Expecting "diversity" out of characters in every game is a fool's errand. There are games that have lots of diversity, there are games that have little if any. Complaining about diversity in MOBAs (where you're not playing a character, anyway, and if you're picking a champ for aesthetics, you're already doing it wrong) is just plain bizarre to me.
Setting aside all argument about how cheesecake might contribute to problems in gaming culture, or if it might alienate potential female players, or if it's somehow irresponsible or sexist or whatever it really just isn't what I like. I want more stuff that caters to my taste and I'm willing to spend my money for it. Having cool character designs is something that draws me to a game and might make me try something I otherwise wouldn't. Similarly a bunch of cheese cake might be keep me from investing time/money to check something or out, it can also be enough to put enough of a black mark on something I otherwise to enjoyed to be not as enthusiastic with my word of mouth.
I'm sitting here saying that all other things being equal a game that presents me with designs I like is probably going to be the one that gets my money over one that doesn't and I don't (generally), like cheesecake. I'm fairly confident that I'm not alone in this and that for many projects toning down the cheesecake would be just a plain smart move.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/16 05:58:42
nomotog wrote: Generally the first character you play is generic cheesecake, but after a few characters in you start rolling more and more diverse characters. See there is nothing wrong with sexy is is just that sexy is only one style and people want many styles. Diversity is nice.
Diversity is indeed nice, save for when it's mandated. This whole topic reminds me a bit of the people currently screaming at George RR Martin for not including any gay sex scenes in his books.
Expecting "diversity" out of characters in every game is a fool's errand. There are games that have lots of diversity, there are games that have little if any. Complaining about diversity in MOBAs (where you're not playing a character, anyway, and if you're picking a champ for aesthetics, you're already doing it wrong) is just plain bizarre to me.
It might be wishful thinking to expect diversity in character designs and styles, but I am not going to give up. Heck I think things are slowly getting better even.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/16 06:52:17
Chongara wrote: I'm sitting here saying that all other things being equal a game that presents me with designs I like is probably going to be the one that gets my money over one that doesn't and I don't (generally), like cheesecake. I'm fairly confident that I'm not alone in this and that for many projects toning down the cheesecake would be just a plain smart move.
Why would it be a smart move?
Not that I'm necessarily arguing in favor of sexified females - I don't much care one way or the other - I'm just curious how the conventional wisdom has suddenly come to be that if you want your game to do well, you need to cater to the audience to whom that topic is important. Sales charts don't really seem to suggest it.
There is a time and a place for sexified characters. There is a time and a place for non sexified characters.
If we say "every game requires a fat chick" or something like that, then video games become like sitcoms, where you always have token gay/black/fat characters.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Chongara wrote: I'm sitting here saying that all other things being equal a game that presents me with designs I like is probably going to be the one that gets my money over one that doesn't and I don't (generally), like cheesecake. I'm fairly confident that I'm not alone in this and that for many projects toning down the cheesecake would be just a plain smart move.
Why would it be a smart move?
Not that I'm necessarily arguing in favor of sexified females - I don't much care one way or the other - I'm just curious how the conventional wisdom has suddenly come to be that if you want your game to do well, you need to cater to the audience to whom that topic is important. Sales charts don't really seem to suggest it.
What I'm saying is that I can point to a consumer (me), for which non-cheesecake designs are going to be a selling point and cheesecake designs are going to be generally speaking, more of a roadblock than anything else. I know I'm not alone. I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed X-COM nearly as much if there had been jiggly bits all up in my face. There is a market out there for games with character designs that appeal to taste like mine and there is money to be had appealing to people with taste like mine. I can't say generally how big it is or which games are better off playing to it than not, but I'd be willing to bet that it's a space with room for a fair amount of growth rather than one that's being over saturated. I also haven't generally seen the crowd that likes cheesecake terribly off-put by non-cheesecake offerings ,at least when they're offered that way from the outset.
EDIT: (If you're going to demand numbers I don't have them, and I doubt anyone with the resources to do so has produced anything rigorous either. I'm just speaking as a long-term consumer here, one that definitely feels undeserved and knows a lot of others share my feelings)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/16 06:39:07
Chongara wrote: What I'm saying is that I can point to a consumer (me), for which non-cheesecake designs are going to be a selling point and cheesecake designs are going to be generally speaking, more of a roadblock than anything else. I know I'm not alone. I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed X-COM nearly as much if there had been jiggly bits all up in my face. There is a market out there for games with character designs that appeal to taste like mine and there is money to be had appealing to people with taste like mine. I can't say generally how big it is or which games are better off playing to it than not, but I'd be willing to bet that it's a space with room for a fair amount of growth rather than one that's being over saturated. I also haven't generally seen the crowd that likes cheesecake terribly off-put by non-cheesecake offerings ,at least when they're offered that way from the outset.
EDIT: (If you're going to demand numbers I don't have them, and I doubt anyone with the resources to do so has produced anything rigorous either. I'm just speaking as a long-term consumer here, one that definitely feels undeserved and knows a lot of others share my feelings)
Nah, I'm not demanding anything. Merely curious.
I don't think any change in the industry approach to sexy female characters is going to be driven by actual numbers, anyway. I think the overwhelming majority of gamers of either gender don't care one way or the other. I think there will be enough of a stridently vocal minority to get a few companies to throw some token change their way. I think one or two companies will follow Bioware over the edge into basically letting Tumblr SJWs write their games. I think companies like Riot will still make crazy money while having walking pin-ups in their games.
Chongara wrote: I'm sitting here saying that all other things being equal a game that presents me with designs I like is probably going to be the one that gets my money over one that doesn't and I don't (generally), like cheesecake. I'm fairly confident that I'm not alone in this and that for many projects toning down the cheesecake would be just a plain smart move.
Why would it be a smart move?
Not that I'm necessarily arguing in favor of sexified females - I don't much care one way or the other - I'm just curious how the conventional wisdom has suddenly come to be that if you want your game to do well, you need to cater to the audience to whom that topic is important. Sales charts don't really seem to suggest it.
What I'm saying is that I can point to a consumer (me), for which non-cheesecake designs are going to be a selling point and cheesecake designs are going to be generally speaking, more of a roadblock than anything else. I know I'm not alone. I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed X-COM nearly as much if there had been jiggly bits all up in my face. There is a market out there for games with character designs that appeal to taste like mine and there is money to be had appealing to people with taste like mine. I can't say generally how big it is or which games are better off playing to it than not, but I'd be willing to bet that it's a space with room for a fair amount of growth rather than one that's being over saturated. I also haven't generally seen the crowd that likes cheesecake terribly off-put by non-cheesecake offerings ,at least when they're offered that way from the outset.
EDIT: (If you're going to demand numbers I don't have them, and I doubt anyone with the resources to do so has produced anything rigorous either. I'm just speaking as a long-term consumer here, one that definitely feels undeserved and knows a lot of others share my feelings)
Along that note. I kind of find that I have been trained to not respond well to cheesecake designs because of how often they are used in bad games.
Slarg232 wrote: There is a time and a place for sexified characters. There is a time and a place for non sexified characters.
If we say "every game requires a fat chick" or something like that, then video games become like sitcoms, where you always have token gay/black/fat characters.
Or else they'll simply get ignored when making an example of a game, as is the case with the League of Legends discussion in this thread. People claim that LOL has nothing but sexy female champs, and the first examples used as a counterpoint to that claim were tossed out as not counting because they were yordles or, in Annie's case, children.
But nobody mentioned Kayle, or Leona, or Jinx, or Lissandra, or...you get the picture.
A lot of the, "I just want diversity," crowd are really saying, "I don't want hot females." Which, you know what? That's fine, but make that the argument rather than cloaking it in one that you think is a little easier to win.
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