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H.B.M.C. wrote: You're an ableist CIS-scum! All my headmates agree.
hmmm. Let's see.
Thread regarding a difference between genders/sexism? Check.
People making decent points? Check.
HBMC coming in and derailing with stupid posts about Tumblr? Check.
Now all we need is Seaward to post something along the lines of 'ableist cis-hetero otherkin gaklord', before staring a witty repartee with HBMC where they just say nonsense words that very few people use at each other, and we'll have every thread remotely related to something other than straight white males, ever!
Seriously. You do this in Every. Single. Thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 14:06:25
Goliath wrote: Seriously. You do this in Every. Single. Thread.
Of course. Because there's actual sexism and then there's the dilution of the word "sexism" and when it starts getting applied to things that aren't sexist. And I like to ridicule professional victims and offence takers.
Commenting on a woman being attractive isn't sexist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 14:24:25
Unless we're discussing Miss America or some other arena in which someone exclusively competes on their looks, then how someone looks is rarely relevant and often sexist, and yet thread after thread, that's exactly what happens.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Can't tell you how many times I've seen a woman poster put something up and have "Everything in this photo is plastic" or similar written on them.
Hell, there was one time where a chick put up a couple of photos of her painting her minis and the immediate response from Dakkaitte regulars, people whom until previous to that I actually rather respected, was "Oh wow, she's a cutie, but her nose is a little too big" or something like that. This chick wanted to just get into the hobby, and one of the MAJOR forums for it pretty much treated her like a piece of meat.
I mean, I go to a Magic the Gathering forum as well recently, and I've seen quite a few chicks posting without worrying about them being known as chicks. Dakka? Maybe one or two.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Acting like your opinion of how attractive a woman is and/or how much you would like to have sex with her is always relevant is sexist. It will continue to be sexist until every thread about Marneus Calgar gets derailed with nonsense about how much people want to bang him.
One problem with our culture is that one of its misogynistic precepts is that nothing a woman does matters unless she is also sexually attractive to men. Acting like your opinion on a woman's sexual attractiveness is relevant at all times feeds into and reinforces that precept.
Ouze wrote: Of course it can be. It depends on the context.
Ah good. You used that important word: "context". That's good. I actually agree with you. I guess what I mean is that saying someone is attractive isn't inherently sexist.
Yes. I can. Why? Because finding someone attractive and stating said attraction does not preclude you from also acknowledging her achievements, nor does it mean you devalue them, nor does it mean you think any less of them. Nor is someone required to put other qualifiers on. You don't have to say "I think she's attractive and I also deeply respect her achievements". I could bring up the example of oh I dunno... Kacy Catanzaro. I think she's cute. Is that just there a sexist statement? How can it be? How can my statement that I find someone attractive somehow devalue them as a person, or push forward ideas of traditional sexual stereotypes. If I instead said "I like Kacy Catanzaro, but why is she doing all that man stuff?", then yeah, you'd be able to scream "Sexist!" to the high heavens and you'd be right to do so. But simply stating whether someone finds someone else attractive isn't enough for it to be sexist. You'd be adding additional meaning to a statement.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: One problem with our culture is that one of its misogynistic precepts is that nothing a woman does matters unless she is also sexually attractive to men. Acting like your opinion on a woman's sexual attractiveness is relevant at all times feeds into and reinforces that precept.
Wow. Talk about escalation.
How did we go from "I think she's good looking" to "I hate women" (which is what 'misogyny' means).
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/08/19 14:42:45
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: It will continue to be sexist until every thread about Marneus Calgar gets derailed with nonsense about how much people want to bang him.
Wargaming is mostly a male hobby. You will find women doing exactly the same thing in female orientated forums. From football players being talked about fir there looks to TV personalities, other athletes, boy bands. Why was Twilight so popular? Was it for the high quality writing and enticing plot? No, it was the sexy vampires. George Clooney and Leonardo DiCaprio are both superb actors, yet time and again they talked about only for their looks.
I do find it distasteful when pall someone can talk about is how attractive a sports person is, or a fields medal winner, but lets not pretend this is a sexist thing, or a male thing. Women do exactly the same thing, but this is justified using terms like "male privilege" and "Patriarchal Society" completely inappropriately. It is an issue across society that people, male and female are judged on their looks. Good looking people are paid more, regardless of gender. It's not about sexism, it's about the way society as a whole values people.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Ouze wrote: If I posted a thread up in the OTz about it, and the very first comment was commenting how hot she was, can you honestly say that wouldn't be sexist?
Yes. Just saying that someone is looking attractive is one of the least sexist things there is. Let's not even start about that we're biologically primed to make out attractive people, but merely stating that another person is attractive isn't offensive in the least.
It would be offensive if you said "Meh, ok for a woman but at least she looks nice." since you obviously devalue the other person's achievements by reducing her to her gender.
Thinking that replying "She looks good!" or even "She's hot!" is sexist is...worrying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 14:55:39
Can't tell you how many times I've seen a woman poster put something up and have "Everything in this photo is plastic" or similar written on them.
Not everyone likes metal minis.
Hell, there was one time where a chick put up a couple of photos of her painting her minis and the immediate response from Dakkaitte regulars, people whom until previous to that I actually rather respected, was "Oh wow, she's a cutie, but her nose is a little too big" or something like that. This chick wanted to just get into the hobby, and one of the MAJOR forums for it pretty much treated her like a piece of meat.
I stereotype most nerd communities as being like this, and I'm usually surprised to hear when it's not. I don't like it, but that's what happens when you get a bunch of relatively socially awkward people together and allow them to hide behind the internet and then present them with a group of people who they're incapable of personally interacting with. I mean, there's an almost 50 page long thread on how to get a date, FFS.
It's not just here though. Other communities, like Slashdot, are evidence that it occurs outside of 40k sites and that's unmoderated, so it's even worse most of the time. You can correct this behavior when you see it here with the Triangle of Friendship though.
I mean, I go to a Magic the Gathering forum as well recently, and I've seen quite a few chicks posting without worrying about them being known as chicks. Dakka? Maybe one or two.
I assume that's because for whatever reason, MtG is more appealing to women than 40k. I had a girlfriend who was kind of interested in Fantasy, but she had zero interest in 40k. I'm not sure which part of muscled supermen who wear loin clothes and inject each other with geneseed doesn't appeal to them, but it seems to be the case. That being said, I have played against a couple at the game store. From what I could tell, everyone in the store treated them like human beings.
One problem with our culture is that one of its misogynistic precepts is that nothing a woman does matters unless she is also sexually attractive to men. Acting like your opinion on a woman's sexual attractiveness is relevant at all times feeds into and reinforces that precept.
Pure propaganda.
Such statements are made all the time and are utterly useless and even counter-productive. Angela Merkel, Hilary Clinton, Sarah Palin, the Queen, Adele...pretty much every woman in politics...you're promoting a mindset that (fortunately) is a thing of the past. For what reasons I don't know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 14:56:47
Ouze wrote: Of course it can be. It depends on the context.
Ah good. You used that important word: "context". That's good. I actually agree with you. I guess what I mean is that saying someone is attractive isn't inherently sexist.
Well, you didn't use the word "inherently" originally.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yes. I can. Why? Because finding someone attractive and stating said attraction does not preclude you from also acknowledging her achievements, nor does it mean you devalue them
I think we disagree on that, mostly right where I stopped quoting (for emphasis). I think when a woman does X and the first response is how pretty she is (or isn't), it does devalue her. It is a reminder that regardless of what else a woman might do, her most important characteristic is to be a pretty object.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: One problem with our culture is that one of its misogynistic precepts is that nothing a woman does matters unless she is also sexually attractive to men. Acting like your opinion on a woman's sexual attractiveness is relevant at all times feeds into and reinforces that precept.
Wow. Talk about escalation.
How did we go from "I think she's good looking" to "I hate women" (which is what 'misogyny' means).
I would like to draw your attention to the particular noun the adjective is applied to: precept. It was not applied to "person who acts as if his opinion on a woman's attractiveness is always relevant."
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: It will continue to be sexist until every thread about Marneus Calgar gets derailed with nonsense about how much people want to bang him.
Wargaming is mostly a male hobby. You will find women doing exactly the same thing in female orientated forums. From football players being talked about fir there looks to TV personalities, other athletes, boy bands. Why was Twilight so popular? Was it for the high quality writing and enticing plot? No, it was the sexy vampires. George Clooney and Leonardo DiCaprio are both superb actors, yet time and again they talked about only for their looks.
I do find it distasteful when pall someone can talk about is how attractive a sports person is, or a fields medal winner, but lets not pretend this is a sexist thing, or a male thing. Women do exactly the same thing, but this is justified using terms like "male privilege" and "Patriarchal Society" completely inappropriately. It is an issue across society that people, male and female are judged on their looks. Good looking people are paid more, regardless of gender. It's not about sexism, it's about the way society as a whole values people.
You seem to agree this is a bad thing. I suggest that as a way forwards, people not inserting their opinions on the attractiveness of random mentioned or pictured women on the forum would be a positive step.
You seem to agree this is a bad thing. I suggest that as a way forwards, people not inserting their opinions on the attractiveness of random mentioned or pictured women on the forum would be a positive step.
Yes, I agree it is a bad thing, however, I also think calling it sexism is a bad thing, which is the issue I have with your statement. It puts an incorrect label on it, makes it a "male" issue, and also leads people to be defensive, obscuring the issue. It also makes people think that they other direction (Men being judged on looks) is acceptable.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
You seem to agree this is a bad thing. I suggest that as a way forwards, people not inserting their opinions on the attractiveness of random mentioned or pictured women on the forum would be a positive step.
It also makes people think that they other direction (Men being judged on looks) is acceptable.
This. Attesting another person's attractivity in an appropriate way isn't offensive to begin with, but when talking about it, those...people only refer to the "men comment on women" side. How many girls actually like 1D for their song-writing? How many women like Hugh Jackman for his cutting-edge acting (ehem)?
Blindly shouting "SEXISM" at everything is a terrible thing to do as you heavily devalue the term. If "sexism" is applied to everything, even totally normal situations, you immediately make actually sexist situations look less bad in comparison.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 15:19:20
Thinking that replying "She looks good!" or even "She's hot!" is sexist is...worrying.
IMO, I think that saying "she/he looks good!" is not sexist (generally), but saying "she/he's hot!" is sexist (generally).... Saying things like "I'd tap that" or "dat ass" or the like are removing everything but the object of the person. It may not be inherently sexist, but it is incredibly "demeaning" in a way, because saying something like that removes all personhood from them, and the are basically being reduced to a living carbon based sex toy.
As others' have already pointed out, sexism seems to be worse on the net because of the perceived anonymity.
Blindly shouting "SEXISM" at everything is a terrible thing to do as you heavily devalue the term. If "sexism" is applied to everything, even totally normal situations, you immediately make actually sexist situations look less bad in comparison.
You can argue that with any sort of hypersensitive overreaction in a public setting. Eventually, people just stop giving a damn, and then you see open mockery of people who disapprove of what SHOULD actually be something worthy of disapproval. It's not really a good thing, because then it leads people to turn a blind eye to the things people should get genuinely disgusted with. It's the bo... err, "Child" Who Cried Wolf.
Sigvatr wrote: people only refer to the "men comment on women" side. How many girls actually like 1D for their song-writing? How many women like Hugh Jackman for his cutting-edge acting (ehem)?
This is kind of a strawman, yes? No one here has said it's only wrong when it's "men commenting on women". You're making a counterargument to a nonexistent premise.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Sigvatr wrote: people only refer to the "men comment on women" side. How many girls actually like 1D for their song-writing? How many women like Hugh Jackman for his cutting-edge acting (ehem)?
This is kind of a strawman, yes? No one here has said it's only wrong when it's "men commenting on women". You're making a counterargument to a nonexistent premise.
I wasn't referring to anyone in this thread, but to the general motion. If I'd refer to anyone in particular, I would explicitely do so.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Saying things like "I'd tap that" or "dat ass" or the like are removing everything but the object of the person. It may not be inherently sexist, but it is incredibly "demeaning" in a way, because saying something like that removes all personhood from them, and the are basically being reduced to a living carbon based sex toy.
/thread right there. That's the most insightful we'll get on the topic.
Blindly shouting "SEXISM" at everything is a terrible thing to do as you heavily devalue the term. If "sexism" is applied to everything, even totally normal situations, you immediately make actually sexist situations look less bad in comparison.
You can argue that with any sort of hypersensitive overreaction in a public setting. Eventually, people just stop giving a damn, and then you see open mockery of people who disapprove of what SHOULD actually be something worthy of disapproval. It's not really a good thing, because then it leads people to turn a blind eye to the things people should get genuinely disgusted with. It's the bo... err, "Child" Who Cried Wolf.
Precisely. This sadly is the case right now with a lot of topics, and this includes actual feminism. Small, but very vocal group that just wants attention and does not care for the movement they pretend to support or represent.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Saying things like "I'd tap that" or "dat ass" or the like are removing everything but the object of the person. It may not be inherently sexist, but it is incredibly "demeaning" in a way, because saying something like that removes all personhood from them, and the are basically being reduced to a living carbon based sex toy.
/thread right there. That's the most insightful we'll get on the topic.
Yarrrrrrrr.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 15:31:46
Sigvatr wrote: people only refer to the "men comment on women" side. How many girls actually like 1D for their song-writing? How many women like Hugh Jackman for his cutting-edge acting (ehem)?
This is kind of a strawman, yes? No one here has said it's only wrong when it's "men commenting on women". You're making a counterargument to a nonexistent premise.
Thats some selective quoting there... The argument was against the use of the term sexist, both by Sigyatr and myself. That both men and women do it IS an argument against using the term sexist, not against the right or wrong of objectification.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
The internet is increasingly becoming an all walks of life public space.
Some degree of decorum is required because many sites can be visited by any age, sex and nationality = you never know who is watching.
Context can be difficult if skirting the edge of good taste due to also 2nd-3rd language understanding or heaven forbid, using Google translate.
I must admit I could be drawn into the discussion of some woman who is recognized for an incredible achievement of intellect and then notice they are quite beautiful as well.
I had a classmate that was incredibly intelligent, gorgeous and rich, it rises some degree of envy, she also had the nerve to be very nice too, so I could not get a proper dislike for her.
Part of our nature to be attracted to aspects of a person, a straight out "wow, she is beautiful" is fine too, comments of your wants with this person, is usually not of interest to anyone and best left unsaid. This poor impulse control or just trying to be shocking, trying to seek some strange form of acceptance, is best dealt with pointing out the statement is repulsive giving them the opposite of what they want. I keep thinking of some discussion on Dakka recently that Cosplay people are great and fine, the people following them around "trying to cop a feel" are repulsive.
I think when we mix/confuse "make believe" with reality the more lizard brain behaviors occur and we forget the subject of our admiration is a living breathing person not an object of play.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
~4100
~1660
