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If they must arrive by deepstrike the first turn, and one stubbornly attached an IC without the ability to do so, then the unit would mishap, since one of the models would be unable to be deployed. Only on a 2-3 would you get em on the table but your opponent decides where.

That has no basis in rules, at all

It's fully based in rules. The deepstrike rule itself it says that a unit suffers a mishap in one or more of its models are unable to deploy. The special rule of that formation states that it must arrive by deepstrike. The independent character rule says that it must arrive with the unit you attach it to.
Since the character can't deploy when the unit deepstrikes (because the character can't deepstrike) the unit would mishap due to not being able to deploy one of its models no matter where you put the scatter die.

The Deep Strike Rule requires all Models in the Unit to have access to it, or else the entire Unit is forbidden from Deep Striking....

 Amiricle wrote:
It's fully based in rules. The deepstrike rule itself it says that a unit suffers a mishap in one or more of its models are unable to deploy. The special rule of that formation states that it must arrive by deepstrike. The independent character rule says that it must arrive with the unit you attach it to.
Since the character can't deploy when the unit deepstrikes (because the character can't deepstrike) the unit would mishap due to not being able to deploy one of its models no matter where you put the scatter die.

No, it isn't supported, as DS requires all models to be able to ds, which you csnnot do.

Lol, right. Was just going off what Booklooker posted where they must deepstrike, yet can't deepstrike. BadMoonMeks ruling is the best one lol.
With the paradox it creates, you really just shouldn't attach that character to that unit in that formation.

blaktoof wrote:
You are 100% wrong and yet again have NO RAW to support your stance, because there is none unless you cherry pick and ignore the RAW that exists which you have done, if you do so again I am ignoring all further comments from you as you are in essence not participating in any rules discussion and simply cherry picking to state what you would like to happen.
You should accept that you are mistaken and move on, and play correctly.

bs.
The difference of opinion is this:
1. Include a Formation in your army.
2. Attach an IC to a unit.
3. Apply the rules granted by the Formation.
That fully explains why the Battle Formation 'Wings of Sanguinius' includes Deep Strike and DoA in its rules, even though all models from the Formation already have those rules.
It's to allow other IC's to also benefit from these rules.
You disagree with that order.
Can you cite me the rule that tells us the timing when a Formation-wide rule gets applied?
Or would you prefer ranting on about how I am 100% wrong IN CAPS?

Well it's not that the IC can't Deep Strike. You could take a Deep Striking IC. They just don't have any special ability to arrive 1st round. The Void Claws do have that ability and the IC is required to arrive with them. Nothing says he can't. Only that a Special Rule is in essence being conferred when it shouldn't. This is because of the way the IC joining reserve units works.

This looks like it may be a legitimate use of these rules. It's just that I'm sure it wasn't intended to work that way.

Kangodo wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
You are 100% wrong and yet again have NO RAW to support your stance, because there is none unless you cherry pick and ignore the RAW that exists which you have done, if you do so again I am ignoring all further comments from you as you are in essence not participating in any rules discussion and simply cherry picking to state what you would like to happen.
You should accept that you are mistaken and move on, and play correctly.

bs.
The difference of opinion is this:
1. Include a Formation in your army.
2. Attach an IC to a unit.
3. Apply the rules granted by the Formation.
That fully explains why the Battle Formation 'Wings of Sanguinius' includes Deep Strike and DoA in its rules, even though all models from the Formation already have those rules.
It's to allow other IC's to also benefit from these rules.
You disagree with that order.
Can you cite me the rule that tells us the timing when a Formation-wide rule gets applied?
Or would you prefer ranting on about how I am 100% wrong IN CAPS?

It would be helpful if you stated you meant apoc formation datasheets. As everything I said was RAW for normal detachments formations, which you are still completely incorrect on.

Note that no model in your army may belong to more than one datasheet at a time.

Battle formations
All the models in the formation gain the special rules associated with the Battle Formation 'for free' - it does not cost extra points to field the formation

SPECIAL RULES
All units in a Battle Formation have one or more special rules, as defined on the
relevant datasheet. Unless otherwise stated, these special rules apply to all models in
the Battle Formation .

so unless the sepcial rule in the formation datasheet specifically states otherwise it applies to models in the battle formation. is the IC you attached from the battle formation or some other formation? Your answer lies there.

if a model attached to a unit from that formation is not from that formation it will not get the special rule "unless the special rule otherwise states they do"

In the case of Aerial Assault

All units in the formation have the Deep Strike and Descent of Angels special rules. If
the formation is held in Strategic Reserve, they can Deep Strike at the start of any turn,
even the enemy's

If the model is not an IC from that formation it is not benefiting from aerial assault and the unit may not deep strike on any turn you desire with that IC attached. I recommend not joining the IC to that unit while in reserves and joining it later on the tabletop.

CAUGHT UNAWARES
All units from the formation have the Shrouded special rule on the turn they Deep
Strike

If you attach an IC to this formation that is not from it the Units from the formation would have shrouded and not the IC, however shrouded "otherwise states that it extends to models in the unit if at least one model has this special rule" so the IC would of course benefit from shrouded as long as one model from the formation with this rule was alive and the IC was attached to the unit.

Incorrect on the a Descent formation above; the IC is a normal member if the unit, so IS a member of the formation for the evocation of the "can deep strike" part, additionally they gain ds and DoA as all units do, and we know they are a member of the unit

I don't think a IC suddenly switches datasheet or detachment for being a part of a unit.

Easiest demonstration is Special rules the model has is granted on a unit bases, this is almost the same wording as how formation special rules are given to models. If the IC is able to switch to being in the formation, being in that unit then he should get all unit rules from that unit, and lose all from his unit and his detachment, this includes the Independent Character special rule, which is linked to his unit in his detachment, IC's don't lose that rule for joining a unit.

He is either remains in the detachment and the rules given to the model for the was bought for or not and instead gains the unit he joined rules, he either retains the unit rules given to the model for the unit he was bought for or not, but instead gains the unit he joined rules, Or while part of a unit he retains his individual unit, and is able to benefit from the special rules of both.

The fact it is a formation should actually be irrelevant due to the wording of formation special rules, units taken as part of the formation have the special rules, and these seem to be handled in fact like all unit special rules, so the debate spans all IC + Unit endeavors whether the Formation granted or codex granted unit rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect on the a Descent formation above; the IC is a normal member if the unit, so IS a member of the formation for the evocation of the "can deep strike" part, additionally they gain ds and DoA as all units do, and we know they are a member of the unit

The IC if not from the "wings of sanguinus" datasheet is from some other detachment/datasheet.

No model can belong to more than one datasheet/formation/etc -therefore a model cannot generally benefit from formation special rules of a formation it is not from.

The special rule is granted to "models from this datasheet" Not models in units from this datasheet. The IC is not a model from that datasheet.

unless the special rule specifically states otherwise, like shrouded/stubborn the special rule will not extend to an IC that joins the unit as per the rules for special rules and ICs.

There is no way that Special Rules from a Formation are transferred to an IC that is added in. There is a specific rule in the BRB that prevents the sharing of Special Rules unless the Special Rule itself says otherwise. The specific rule trumps the general rule of ICs count as a unit for rules. Done and done.

Now how about the specifics of OPs Void Claw example?? The unit "must" deepstrike and come in round 1. An attached IC "must" come in from reserves with the unit according to the rules on reserves. There is nothing to prevent attaching an IC so what happens here? As far as I'm reading this the only legitimate outcome is to deploy the IC with the Void Claws round 1. Anything else has been expressly forbidden here. It seems to be a unique situation.

I'm going to be tacky and quote myself rather than rewrite my citations:

 Booklooker wrote:
BadMoonMek that is the coolest ruling imaginable for this!


Just to stir it up a bit more, here is the rule from ICs joining units in reserve:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together.

And here is the Void Claw rule:

Spearhead Strike: All units from this Formation begin the game in Reserves, and must arrive by Deep Strike in their controlling player’s first turn.

So you could say that since the Void Claws "must" deepstrike first turn and the IC "must" arrive with them... they MUST arrive together during the first turn. Ouch.
That's not even sharing the Void Claw Special Rule. That's the reserve rules bringing him along on what is basically an auto roll for reserves round one.

The IC doesnt have a rule to deploy with the void claws round1 from deepstrike.

The unit must do something, but the IC attached is not allowed to do it.

The IC must deploy with the unit, but in this case does not benefit from the units rules to deploy when they do.

Either way you break the rules.

if you must deploy and cannot your not following a must.

if your not allowed to do something and you do it, you are doing something you aren't allowed.

There is no RAW answer to this question.

The only RAW possibility is to not deploy the IC with the unit and join them on the table as it breaks no rules.

HIWIPI- void claws cannot have an IC attached to them before deployment. Simply because its not possible to stay in reserves, or legally deploy them.

the idea that you can attach an IC(legal) and deploy first turn because the wolfguards the IC is attached to have rules stating the wolfguard terminators from that formation must. (illegal due to IC not having rule that allows 1st turn deployment)

is as validly wrong as

the idea that you can attach an IC (Legal) and roll for reserves turn 2 onward and deploy using the limitation of the attached IC that has no additional rules letting it deploy some other time(illegal because you ignored the void claw wolfguard terminators unit must deploy 1st turn..)

That someone would pick the first one shows they are only reaching for a free bonus when breaking rules.

blaktoof wrote:
if you must deploy and cannot your not following a must.

So if I must Run, and I am not allowed to what happens?

For example, a Helbrute gets Immobilized. It rolls on the Crazed table and gets a result of 3.

The Helbrute must Run but cannot due to being Immobilized.

well in that case obviously the rules for 3 say what to do, don't they? keep reading result 3. Please quote it if you would like to continue talking about it.

the void claws entry doesn't give an alternative does it?

Blaktoof - check again on the wings rule. States UNITS gain the rule, so please do not state that it is a model based rule. The quoted rule states otherwise.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blaktoof - check again on the wings rule. States UNITS gain the rule, so please do not state that it is a model based rule. The quoted rule states otherwise.

All units in the formation have the Deep Strike and Descent of Angels special rules. If
the formation is held in Strategic Reserve, they can Deep Strike at the start of any turn,
even the enemy's.

the attached IC is not a unit from that formation.

Battle formations
All the models in the formation gain the special rules associated with the Battle Formation 'for free' - it does not
cost extra points to field the formation.

models. The wings formation is a battle formation.

Units in a Battle Formation deploy at the same time, within 36" of the same point (before any
scatter). Special rules listed on a formation's datasheet apply to every model in it.

Model. The attached IC if not from the formation is not from the formation, it cannot belong to more than 1 formation so it has the rules for the formation it came from, not the formation it joined. Of course unless the special rule specifically states otherwise that it extends to other models in the unit as per stubborn/shrouded.

Might help for you to realize that independent characters are not unit upgrades like promoting 1 dude to a nob/captain/leader/etc. and while they may join other units, they still start out as a single HQ unit first in a specific formation or detachment (lets call this "A"). If you join them to a unit in a second detachment ("B"), the retain their command benefits from "A" and do not get any of the command benefits from "B" because it is still not part of "B" even though now joined to it.

Aim rifle - um, nothing in my argument relies on them being a unit upgrade.

Blaktoof - well done on quoting the general rules. Now reread the specific rule, stating units get the special rule

Then reread IC rule, member of unit for all purposes.

Is the IC a member of the unit? Yes. Does the unit gain the ds... Rules? Yes. Does every model in the unit gain this? Yes.

Prove otherwise. You cannot, but please do so. Do not repeat the rules above, thy cannot apply to this specific situation. Doing so is concession

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Aim rifle - um, nothing in my argument relies on them being a unit upgrade.

Blaktoof - well done on quoting the general rules. Now reread the specific rule, stating units get the special rule

Then reread IC rule, member of unit for all purposes.

Is the IC a member of the unit? Yes. Does the unit gain the ds... Rules? Yes. Does every model in the unit gain this? Yes.

Prove otherwise. You cannot, but please do so. Do not repeat the rules above, thy cannot apply to this specific situation. Doing so is concession

From the BRB.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

The formation is granted a special rule.

It is granted to units from the formation. The IC is joined to a unit in the formation but is not a unit from the formation.

the general rule of an IC is part of the unit for all purposes also has the specific rule that the IC does not get the special rules from the unit it joins unless specified in the rule itself, see stubborn.

The rule, Airborne Assault', itself specifies units in the formation, if we look at the units in the wings of sanguinus formation, they are:
1 Captain
1 Chaplain
0-1 Sanguinor
1 Honor guard or Sanguinary guard
10 Assault squads

If the IC attached to one of those units is not a unit from the above formation it does not get the rule. Not only because it is not a unit in the formation above, but because models cannot belong to more than 1 formation so the act of the IC joining the unit does not make it a unit from the formation above, it is still a unit from its own formation.

In the case of the "caught unawares" rule, an IC from outside the above formation could join the formation and benefit from it as it is specifies that it benefits other models in the unit.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as..

if you can find any wording in the special rule "airborne assault" that allows a model to switch which formation datasheet it is from(which is not a normal rule I have seen anywhere), or be joined to two different formations (which is not a normal rule I have seen anymore), or that the rule specifies that it extends to all models in the unit(which it does not state in this special rule at all)- I would agree with you.

He is a member of the unit. Agreed or not? [note, rhetorical - you have to agree, as it's factual ]

As he is a member of the unit, he gains the DS rule, as the UNIT gains it.

This is proven.

so your just going to ignore the RAW

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

because it makes your cherry picking invalid?

is the attached IC from a different formation, a Unit from the Wings of Sanguinus formation? lets just go ahead and say no and move on.

obviously the model does not default gain formation rules for a formation it is not part of when it calls out "units in the formation" not just simply "units" as you have not fully quoted in your highly incomplete assertion of the rules.

Firstly, detachment is irrelevant. He is a member of the unit for all rules purposes...is detachment a special rule? Your entire argument relies in that.

Secondly it states the whole unit, with no carve out specified, gains the rule.

Is he a member of the unit? Yes or no. Take this slowly, so we can see where you're ignoring rules

Unless I'm missing something, the IC would join the unit during initial deployment. The unit is effectively getting it's "formation rules" during list creation and certainly not AFTER the IC is joined.

So, if I join an IC without DS to a unit with DS, and DS is not a USR that is conferred...

Am I missing something? The argument that the IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes isn't really relevant since DS doesn't confer and the units gains DS during list creation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I'm saying he BECOMES a member of the unit, but this occurs AFTER the core unit gets its formation rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Firstly, detachment is irrelevant. He is a member of the unit for all rules purposes...is detachment a special rule? Your entire argument relies in that.

Secondly it states the whole unit, with no carve out specified, gains the rule.

Is he a member of the unit? Yes or no. Take this slowly, so we can see where you're ignoring rules

so your saying that the special rules it gets from the formation which are called out as "special rules granted to models from the formation, which is given to units from the formation applies to the IC that joins the formation from outside of the formation when it states he is not from that formation, but from another. As well as a model cannot belong to more than one formation, nor can it switch formations, but since he is part of the unit for all rules purposes, and we will ignore that the section on ICs and special rules says otherwise specifically over this general rule and pretend that doesn't exist, that he's part of the unit for all purposes and gets this formation special rule because formations are irrelevant. So the fact that the rule is a "special rule", and comes from a detachment that calls out units in the detachment, is all irrelevant.

got it.

I honestly cannot tell if you are trolling or what, but this is not rational and simply you are ignoring RAW that specifically state things to make your point which goes against multiple parts of the RAW and is based solely on ignoring whole sections of rules, or parts of other rules to exist.

We are done talking.

Blacktoof, I think you're talking to a wall with Nosferatu1001. You've pointed out the specific rule preventing ICs from sharing in Special Rules. It is all very clear and specific.

Now when it comes to the strange rules interaction of the Void Claws there is no right answer. I think the player could choose whichever is more beneficial, whether that be hiding the unit and IC in a vehicle to protect the loss of their reserves Special Rule, or Deepstriking the IC along with them round 1. There is nothing that says "when the rules interact in unexpected ways choose the option that penalizes the player most."

Since the unit "must" deepstrike round 1 and the IC "must" enter from reserves with them, I think deepstriking the IC along with them is the only interpretation of the RAW as long as the IC has the deepstrike rule. Anything else is creating a house ruling in the attempt to prevent advantage. Until GW makes an FAQ about this I have to say the IC deploys from reserves round one along with the Void Claws, deepstriking if they all have the deepstrike rule.

Feel free to tell me your argument against. But you don't have to call me a rule breaker because I have a different opinion Blacktoof

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Firstly, detachment is irrelevant. He is a member of the unit for all rules purposes...is detachment a special rule? Your entire argument relies in that.
Secondly it states the whole unit, with no carve out specified, gains the rule.
Is he a member of the unit? Yes or no. Take this slowly, so we can see where you're ignoring rules

I'd like to chime in after staying away from this

He's not ignoring a rule at all! He's applying a rule that shouldn't be applied.
He is using the rule that prevents Deep Strike from conferring from a unit to an attached IC to nullify a Detachment/Formation-rule that gives the entire unit Deep Strike.

That rules clearly says "..the unit's special rules are not conferred.." which is completely different from a Formation that grants a rule to each unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Aim rifle - um, nothing in my argument relies on them being a unit upgrade.

Blaktoof - well done on quoting the general rules. Now reread the specific rule, stating units get the special rule

Then reread IC rule, member of unit for all purposes.

Is the IC a member of the unit? Yes. Does the unit gain the ds... Rules? Yes. Does every model in the unit gain this? Yes.

Prove otherwise. You cannot, but please do so. Do not repeat the rules above, thy cannot apply to this specific situation. Doing so is concession

So, you just read the first line and ignore the rest? No one is ever going to prove anything to you as you twist & cherry pick words/rules to do what you want and completely ignore anyone or anything that contradicts what you want to happen. I will no longer respond to anything you post as it is an exercise in futility.

Kangodo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Firstly, detachment is irrelevant. He is a member of the unit for all rules purposes...is detachment a special rule? Your entire argument relies in that.
Secondly it states the whole unit, with no carve out specified, gains the rule.
Is he a member of the unit? Yes or no. Take this slowly, so we can see where you're ignoring rules

I'd like to chime in after staying away from this

He's not ignoring a rule at all! He's applying a rule that shouldn't be applied.
He is using the rule that prevents Deep Strike from conferring from a unit to an attached IC to nullify a Detachment/Formation-rule that gives the entire unit Deep Strike.

That rules clearly says "..the unit's special rules are not conferred.." which is completely different from a Formation that grants a rule to each unit.

if a unit gets special rules for being a unit from a formation those are special rules that unit has. It doesn't matter in this case how the unit has the special rule, just that it has it as there are no classifications for different types of special rules. That is a completely made up idea.

special rules = special rules.

even if they are given as command benefits, they are called out as special rules. Even if they are given as formation benefits, they are called out as special rules, even if they are given as detachment benfits, they are called out as special rules.

Of course if you have a model that has deepstrike on its own, and is an IC and you attach it to a unit that has deepstrike they can deepstrike.

however if said unit has a special rule that states it may deepstrike turn 1, and this rule is given to units from this formation. Then that unit has the special rule. as the special rule does not specifiy otherwise that it extends to all models in the unit e.g.-stubborn, shrouded, slow and purposeful, split fire, ignores cover, etc- then it does not extend to all models in the unit, as per the rules for IC an IC may count as a member of the unit for all purposes but special rules have specific exemptions to that which I have mentioned about 6 times now so not requoting.

Obviously the IC does not gain the special rule in this case. it may still deepstike, but has no rule allowing it to do so turn 1, even if joined to the unit as the RAW states.