Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Once again your ignorance astounds me.

The AdMech invented their religion to preserve technology, not destroy it!

... and yet, Land Raiders have a machine spirit that must be prayed to, rather than a computer that is programmed.

.. and holy incense is burned with any repair work. No one actually understands why the repairs do what they do- you just repeat the ritual and it functions, despite having no understanding whatsoever of the thing you're fixing.

... and it took the AdMech 10,000 years to put plates over all of the exposed cabling on the MkVII power armor.

Of course, even giving the AdMech that much credit is too much credit, because the AdMech exists only by tapping into the latent powers of the Void Dragon. Without it, humanity's already poor technological capabilities would be that much worse.

The Imperium's technological basis is one great lie- the Grand Lie of Mars.

Of course, even giving the AdMech that much credit is too much credit, because the AdMech exists only by tapping into the latent powers of the Void Dragon. Without it, humanity's already poor technological capabilities would be that much worse.

Given that the C'Tan are considered the gods of the physical realm, and the effects of their existence is still felt, tens of millions of years after their defeat, it would probably be safe to say that the influence of the Void Dragon has shaped the technological advancement of every sentient species, with the possible exception of the Eldar, who were contemporaries with the C'Tan during the War in Heaven.

The prayers are maintenance rituals.

The incense is a mnemonic cue to assist in the recall of the correct motions.

The AdMech are making the best of a bad situation. The only reason there even is an AdMech to make armour and weapons is because of those rituals you despise! Without them, there would be no remaining knowledge of technology in the Imperium at all.

 Psienesis wrote:

Of course, even giving the AdMech that much credit is too much credit, because the AdMech exists only by tapping into the latent powers of the Void Dragon. Without it, humanity's already poor technological capabilities would be that much worse.

Given that the C'Tan are considered the gods of the physical realm, and the effects of their existence is still felt, tens of millions of years after their defeat, it would probably be safe to say that the influence of the Void Dragon has shaped the technological advancement of every sentient species, with the possible exception of the Eldar, who were contemporaries with the C'Tan during the War in Heaven.

... except he was locked in a box on Mars long before the Tau entered the Bronze Age, meaning that he really couldn't influence much of anything, assuming the box keeps him locked. If not, it's safe to assume that the more he is capable of, the more he has corrupted the AdMech with his presence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The prayers are maintenance rituals.

The incense is a mnemonic cue to assist in the recall of the correct motions.

The AdMech are making the best of a bad situation. The only reason there even is an AdMech to make armour and weapons is because of those rituals you despise! Without them, there would be no remaining knowledge of technology in the Imperium at all.

The Tau make do without the rituals and do just fine.

Regardless, that the rituals are needed IS A LIE! The entire understanding the Imperium has of technology IS A LIE!

It's ok to say that the AdMech is justified by what they do- it is another to say what they do is honest.

The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

... except he was locked in a box on Mars long before the Tau entered the Bronze Age, meaning that he really couldn't influence much of anything, assuming the box keeps him locked. If not, it's safe to assume that the more he is capable of, the more he has corrupted the AdMech with his presence.

The Nightbringer was sharded 60 million years ago, and yet all living creatures fear Death.

 Psienesis wrote:

... except he was locked in a box on Mars long before the Tau entered the Bronze Age, meaning that he really couldn't influence much of anything, assuming the box keeps him locked. If not, it's safe to assume that the more he is capable of, the more he has corrupted the AdMech with his presence.

The Nightbringer was sharded 60 million years ago, and yet all living creatures fear Death.

Eldar also use sorcery, but undermine Tzeentch, rather than supporting him. The Eldar had theiur own god of war, separate from Khorne. Debauchery existed before Slaanesh was born.

So, attempting to move this back on topic, would any of these races have the ability to engineer or influence the Tau and what would be their motives?

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau make do without the rituals and do just fine.

Regardless, that the rituals are needed IS A LIE! The entire understanding the Imperium has of technology IS A LIE!

It's ok to say that the AdMech is justified by what they do- it is another to say what they do is honest.
i
The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

The Tau have never suffered a civilisation-wide catastrophe that wiped out all of their reliable data storage, either.

The Tau have rituals, anyway. Just because they don't chant them aloud while they perform the actions the chant describes does not make them any less mandatory. Just like you have your maintenance rituals. Oh, sure, they don't involve waving incense and chanting, but still. The most basic of AdMech rituals is "Strike the activation rune while invoking the name of the machine". Which translates to "for this machine, press the on button here."

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau make do without the rituals and do just fine.

Regardless, that the rituals are needed IS A LIE! The entire understanding the Imperium has of technology IS A LIE!

It's ok to say that the AdMech is justified by what they do- it is another to say what they do is honest.
i
The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

The Tau have never suffered a civilisation-wide catastrophe that wiped out all of their reliable data storage, either.

The Tau have rituals, anyway. Just because they don't chant them aloud while they perform the actions the chant describes does not make them any less mandatory. Just like you have your maintenance rituals. Oh, sure, they don't involve waving incense and chanting, but still. The most basic of AdMech rituals is "Strike the activation rune while invoking the name of the machine". Which translates to "for this machine, press the on button here."

Tau machines are also unlikely to brutally murder the person tending to them when pissed off too. Titans and Ships are not only sentient, but moody.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

... except he was locked in a box on Mars long before the Tau entered the Bronze Age, meaning that he really couldn't influence much of anything, assuming the box keeps him locked. If not, it's safe to assume that the more he is capable of, the more he has corrupted the AdMech with his presence.

The Nightbringer was sharded 60 million years ago, and yet all living creatures fear Death.

Eldar also use sorcery, but undermine Tzeentch, rather than supporting him. The Eldar had theiur own god of war, separate from Khorne. Debauchery existed before Slaanesh was born.

Man you really don't know anything about 40k, do you? Slaanesh has always existed. That is how the warp works.

would any of these races have the ability to engineer or influence the Tau and what would be their motives?

The Tyranids would not, they have no reason to.

The Necrons would not, they don't need to build their own slave-races.

The Eldar might, but they chose a really bad place for them if they're supposed to oppose Chaos. They're on the far side of the galaxy from the EoT.

The Kroot lack the means.

The Vespid lack the means.

The Hrud don't do that.

The Emperor doesn't like aliens, why would he create aliens to work alongside human? He was very much a species-centric individual... to the point of exterminating entire cultures of non-humans for no reason other than they existed.

The Gods of Chaos would not, as that would be stupid.

The C'Tan did not/do not create.

The Old Ones died long before these creatures existed.

Taffy17 wrote:
So, attempting to move this back on topic, would any of these races have the ability to engineer or influence the Tau and what would be their motives?

To engineer species is known from Old Ones. No one else is mentioned doing it too IIRC.
But they are a dead civ.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

Really ?

Would they honestly tell us who made their Etherals and how they just popped up in a single night ?
Oh wait they may not know....

 1hadhq wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
So, attempting to move this back on topic, would any of these races have the ability to engineer or influence the Tau and what would be their motives?

To engineer species is known from Old Ones. No one else is mentioned doing it too IIRC.
But they are a dead civ.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

Really ?

Would they honestly tell us who made their Etherals and how they just popped up in a single night ?
Oh wait they may not know....

Supposedly, they are a dead civ. In actuality, there may be one or two of them out and about somewhere.

They may have created the Tau.

Also- the Ethereals may not even know where they came from. That may, literally, be a plot point for them. Maybe they're trying to figure it out.

We don't know.

The Imperium, however, propped up a corpse as a God. An atheist corpse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau make do without the rituals and do just fine.

Regardless, that the rituals are needed IS A LIE! The entire understanding the Imperium has of technology IS A LIE!

It's ok to say that the AdMech is justified by what they do- it is another to say what they do is honest.
i
The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

The Tau have never suffered a civilisation-wide catastrophe that wiped out all of their reliable data storage, either.

The Tau have rituals, anyway. Just because they don't chant them aloud while they perform the actions the chant describes does not make them any less mandatory. Just like you have your maintenance rituals. Oh, sure, they don't involve waving incense and chanting, but still. The most basic of AdMech rituals is "Strike the activation rune while invoking the name of the machine". Which translates to "for this machine, press the on button here."

Tau machines are also unlikely to brutally murder the person tending to them when pissed off too. Titans and Ships are not only sentient, but moody.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

... except he was locked in a box on Mars long before the Tau entered the Bronze Age, meaning that he really couldn't influence much of anything, assuming the box keeps him locked. If not, it's safe to assume that the more he is capable of, the more he has corrupted the AdMech with his presence.

The Nightbringer was sharded 60 million years ago, and yet all living creatures fear Death.

Eldar also use sorcery, but undermine Tzeentch, rather than supporting him. The Eldar had theiur own god of war, separate from Khorne. Debauchery existed before Slaanesh was born.

Man you really don't know anything about 40k, do you? Slaanesh has always existed. That is how the warp works.

... and yet, Slaanesh was born.

Chaos mumbo-jumbo aside, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle weren't born. THEY always existed. Slaanesh didn't. That's why it needed to be born.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau make do without the rituals and do just fine.

Regardless, that the rituals are needed IS A LIE! The entire understanding the Imperium has of technology IS A LIE!

It's ok to say that the AdMech is justified by what they do- it is another to say what they do is honest.
i
The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

The Tau have never suffered a civilisation-wide catastrophe that wiped out all of their reliable data storage, either.

The Tau have rituals, anyway. Just because they don't chant them aloud while they perform the actions the chant describes does not make them any less mandatory. Just like you have your maintenance rituals. Oh, sure, they don't involve waving incense and chanting, but still. The most basic of AdMech rituals is "Strike the activation rune while invoking the name of the machine". Which translates to "for this machine, press the on button here."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ritual?s=t


ritual
[rich-oo-uh l]

noun
1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
2. a system or collection of religious or other rites.
3. observance of set forms in public worship.
4. a book of rites or ceremonies.
5. a book containing the offices to be used by priests in administering the sacraments and for visitation of the sick, burial of the dead, etc.
6. a prescribed or established rite, ceremony, proceeding, or service:
the ritual of the dead.
7. prescribed, established, or ceremonial acts or features collectively, as in religious services.

By definition, what the Tau do isn't ritual. There is no religion, for the Tau, in fixing a drone or tank. To the Imperium, there is religion in it. There is faith in it. For the Tau, there isn't. Before you make suggestions about something, like rituals, you'd do well to pop open a dictionary and read what they are, since you can't apparently tell a ritual from a hole in the ground.

... and yet, Slaanesh was born.

Chaos mumbo-jumbo aside, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle weren't born. THEY always existed. Slaanesh didn't. That's why it needed to be born.

And it engineered its own birth. Chaos mumbo-jumbo is what applies when speaking about things that reside wholly in the Warp, because the constraints of our physical reality simply do not apply there. Things like physics are quaint and humorous notions.

 Psienesis wrote:

... and yet, Slaanesh was born.

Chaos mumbo-jumbo aside, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle weren't born. THEY always existed. Slaanesh didn't. That's why it needed to be born.

And it engineered its own birth. Chaos mumbo-jumbo is what applies when speaking about things that reside wholly in the Warp, because the constraints of our physical reality simply do not apply there. Things like physics are quaint and humorous notions.

... and yet, the Eye of Terror never existed before Slaanesh was born.

And? The presence of something in realspace, which *is* bound by linear time, is no indication of what was in the Warp.

 Psienesis wrote:
And? The presence of something in realspace, which *is* bound by linear time, is no indication of what was in the Warp.

... and yet, what happens in linear space brings about things in the Warp.

That's why there are Tau. When they are the last race left, the Warp will have no power over the material. The Tau can't feed the warp like the Eldar and humanity do.

They're the endgame.

Their greater purpose.

Nice theory, but flawed. The Tau aren't blanks or Untouchables. They have a dim presence in the Warp, but that is not to say that they have no presence in the Warp.

Should all of the other races vanish, you can be sure that the forces of Chaos will turn their attention to the Tau... and by that time, the Tau would have lost the naivety that keeps them alive right now.

 Psienesis wrote:
Nice theory, but flawed. The Tau aren't blanks or Untouchables. They have a dim presence in the Warp, but that is not to say that they have no presence in the Warp.

Should all of the other races vanish, you can be sure that the forces of Chaos will turn their attention to the Tau... and by that time, the Tau would have lost the naivety that keeps them alive right now.

Funny- earlier in this very thread, a person wwas arguing that the Tau's lack of presence meant that- in the middle of a WARP STORM- daemons weren't interested in Tau. At all.

It's gotta be one or the other- could you address the other person, instead of me, and convince THEM that the "daemons can't see Tau in a warp storm" theory is crap?

If T'au was actually *in* a warp storm, and Tau aren't blanks or untouchables, then there would be no Tau. At all. Daemons would have eaten them all.

One or the other...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau make do without the rituals and do just fine.

Regardless, that the rituals are needed IS A LIE! The entire understanding the Imperium has of technology IS A LIE!

It's ok to say that the AdMech is justified by what they do- it is another to say what they do is honest.
i
The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

The Tau have never suffered a civilisation-wide catastrophe that wiped out all of their reliable data storage, either.

The Tau have rituals, anyway. Just because they don't chant them aloud while they perform the actions the chant describes does not make them any less mandatory. Just like you have your maintenance rituals. Oh, sure, they don't involve waving incense and chanting, but still. The most basic of AdMech rituals is "Strike the activation rune while invoking the name of the machine". Which translates to "for this machine, press the on button here."

Tau machines are also unlikely to brutally murder the person tending to them when pissed off too. Titans and Ships are not only sentient, but moody.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

... except he was locked in a box on Mars long before the Tau entered the Bronze Age, meaning that he really couldn't influence much of anything, assuming the box keeps him locked. If not, it's safe to assume that the more he is capable of, the more he has corrupted the AdMech with his presence.

The Nightbringer was sharded 60 million years ago, and yet all living creatures fear Death.

Eldar also use sorcery, but undermine Tzeentch, rather than supporting him. The Eldar had theiur own god of war, separate from Khorne. Debauchery existed before Slaanesh was born.

Man you really don't know anything about 40k, do you? Slaanesh has always existed. That is how the warp works.

... and yet, Slaanesh was born.

Chaos mumbo-jumbo aside, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle weren't born. THEY always existed. Slaanesh didn't. That's why it needed to be born.

So you now also don't know anything about basic quantum physics either? Wonderful.

It doesn't matter if something has a set birthdate if it exists in a Schrodinger state- IE having both never existed yet always having been. While Slaanesh had a set birthdate, it created itself. Chaos holds no respect for linear time, as it is Chaos.

Warp Storms affect Daemons as much as they affect anything else moving through that region of the Warp. It's a hurricane/monsoon/apocalypse weather formation formed of pure spite and anger...

... not even Daemons will try to float through that gak in most cases (though sometimes some do get sucked into it and then spat out on worlds trapped inside it, or the Warp simply spins them out through whatever Warp-tainted materials exist on the world to do so with... like windows and mirrors, which the Tau may not have possessed at the time).

However, as mentioned, Tau *are* hard to see. That does not make them *impossible* to see. When the Tau disappeared behind that storm, there were much more interesting things going on in the galaxy to draw the attentions of the daemonic.

It is also equally possible (and more likely) that GW simply did not consider this aspect of a Warp Storm. They might have thought "Ok, trapped in a Warp storm for five thousand years in Real Space aaaaaannndd.... they jump forward fifty thousand years in technology! Yes! WINNING! Tiger's blood!"

 Psienesis wrote:
Warp Storms affect Daemons as much as they affect anything else moving through that region of the Warp. It's a hurricane/monsoon/apocalypse weather formation formed of pure spite and anger...

... not even Daemons will try to float through that gak in most cases (though sometimes some do get sucked into it and then spat out on worlds trapped inside it, or the Warp simply spins them out through whatever Warp-tainted materials exist on the world to do so with... like windows and mirrors, which the Tau may not have possessed at the time).

However, as mentioned, Tau *are* hard to see. That does not make them *impossible* to see. When the Tau disappeared behind that storm, there were much more interesting things going on in the galaxy to draw the attentions of the daemonic.

It is also equally possible (and more likely) that GW simply did not consider this aspect of a Warp Storm. They might have thought "Ok, trapped in a Warp storm for five thousand years in Real Space aaaaaannndd.... they jump forward fifty thousand years in technology! Yes! WINNING! Tiger's blood!"

We also know Tau can be tainted by chaos via Firewarrior.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Warp Storms affect Daemons as much as they affect anything else moving through that region of the Warp. It's a hurricane/monsoon/apocalypse weather formation formed of pure spite and anger...

... not even Daemons will try to float through that gak in most cases (though sometimes some do get sucked into it and then spat out on worlds trapped inside it, or the Warp simply spins them out through whatever Warp-tainted materials exist on the world to do so with... like windows and mirrors, which the Tau may not have possessed at the time).

However, as mentioned, Tau *are* hard to see. That does not make them *impossible* to see. When the Tau disappeared behind that storm, there were much more interesting things going on in the galaxy to draw the attentions of the daemonic.

It is also equally possible (and more likely) that GW simply did not consider this aspect of a Warp Storm. They might have thought "Ok, trapped in a Warp storm for five thousand years in Real Space aaaaaannndd.... they jump forward fifty thousand years in technology! Yes! WINNING! Tiger's blood!"

We also know Tau can be tainted by chaos via Firewarrior.

Funny how Fire Warrior and Dawn of War are trotted out anytime someone wants to dis on the Tau... but they aren't when, say, we want to compare the accuracy, morale, etc of Fire Warriors to guardsmen.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
Warp Storms affect Daemons as much as they affect anything else moving through that region of the Warp. It's a hurricane/monsoon/apocalypse weather formation formed of pure spite and anger...

... not even Daemons will try to float through that gak in most cases (though sometimes some do get sucked into it and then spat out on worlds trapped inside it, or the Warp simply spins them out through whatever Warp-tainted materials exist on the world to do so with... like windows and mirrors, which the Tau may not have possessed at the time).

However, as mentioned, Tau *are* hard to see. That does not make them *impossible* to see. When the Tau disappeared behind that storm, there were much more interesting things going on in the galaxy to draw the attentions of the daemonic.

It is also equally possible (and more likely) that GW simply did not consider this aspect of a Warp Storm. They might have thought "Ok, trapped in a Warp storm for five thousand years in Real Space aaaaaannndd.... they jump forward fifty thousand years in technology! Yes! WINNING! Tiger's blood!"

Simply not true. The Eye of Terror itself is one big warp storm.

The Crow's Eye was a massive Warp Storm in Ultima Segmentum that devastated the Corvus Sub-sector in late M40. Initially enveloping the sub-sector's worlds as well as outlaying regions, its presence isolated the worlds of the Corvus systems from the greater Imperium. Anarchy and destruction soon erupted, devastating most of the planets while others were converted to hellish Daemon Worlds. Unknown to most however was the fact that the Crow's Eye was created through a dark ritual by the Chaos Cult known as the Cult of Amber.[1]

Second only to the Eye of Terror in size, scope, and intensity, The Maelstrom is a massive Warp Storm and spatial vortex that lies near the center of the Galaxy. A place where the material universe and the Warp overlap, the laws of physics do not apply and it is infested with all kinds of cosmic horrors, such as Daemons and hordes of Chaos Mutants. Off limits to the Imperium, it has served as a refuge for pirates, brigands, outcasts, and Chaos Space Marines.[2]

Dionys is a Warp Storm of the galaxy. When it emerged it covered many systems with corrupting influences, resulting in mass outbreaks of mutation and cultist activity. Moreover it also spread across many Adeptus Astartes Homeworlds, corrupting their gene-seed and new recruits. As a result, the warp storm was the catalyst for Saint Basillius in declaring these corrupted Chapters to be impure, resulting in the Abyssal Crusade.

Every time you here about a warp storm, it's crawling with daemons. Now, the zealots of the Imperium want to paint the Tau as worthless, and now warp storms don't harbor daemons?

 Wyzilla wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau make do without the rituals and do just fine.

Regardless, that the rituals are needed IS A LIE! The entire understanding the Imperium has of technology IS A LIE!

It's ok to say that the AdMech is justified by what they do- it is another to say what they do is honest.
i
The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

The Tau have never suffered a civilisation-wide catastrophe that wiped out all of their reliable data storage, either.

The Tau have rituals, anyway. Just because they don't chant them aloud while they perform the actions the chant describes does not make them any less mandatory. Just like you have your maintenance rituals. Oh, sure, they don't involve waving incense and chanting, but still. The most basic of AdMech rituals is "Strike the activation rune while invoking the name of the machine". Which translates to "for this machine, press the on button here."

Tau machines are also unlikely to brutally murder the person tending to them when pissed off too. Titans and Ships are not only sentient, but moody.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

... except he was locked in a box on Mars long before the Tau entered the Bronze Age, meaning that he really couldn't influence much of anything, assuming the box keeps him locked. If not, it's safe to assume that the more he is capable of, the more he has corrupted the AdMech with his presence.

The Nightbringer was sharded 60 million years ago, and yet all living creatures fear Death.

Eldar also use sorcery, but undermine Tzeentch, rather than supporting him. The Eldar had theiur own god of war, separate from Khorne. Debauchery existed before Slaanesh was born.

Man you really don't know anything about 40k, do you? Slaanesh has always existed. That is how the warp works.

... and yet, Slaanesh was born.

Chaos mumbo-jumbo aside, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle weren't born. THEY always existed. Slaanesh didn't. That's why it needed to be born.

So you now also don't know anything about basic quantum physics either? Wonderful.

It doesn't matter if something has a set birthdate if it exists in a Schrodinger state- IE having both never existed yet always having been. While Slaanesh had a set birthdate, it created itself. Chaos holds no respect for linear time, as it is Chaos.

Don't attempt to apply quantum physics to Sci Fi space magic and do so in a belittling tone. It's not real.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

]You can't say, "Tau are bad by IRL standards, so they suck," and then promote ANY other faction in 40k, because they're the only faction that will so much as give you a chance to have a life... at all.

Some people value honesty over gentleness.

And dakka over philosophy.

... and which faction do you think is more honest than the Tau? The Imperium, which invented nonsense rites and superstition to pair with all technology so no one ever thinks to invent anything? Which invented a religion to worship a dying atheist? If you are an Imperial, literally every bit of information you are fed by the Imperium is one big crock of bs.

Perhaps the Dark Eldar, who are more than happy to infiltrate a society so they can carry it off as slaves to be raped to death?

Perhaps the Eldar, who routinely manipulate other races (mostly Imperials, though) into doing their bidding?

Tzeentch, the father of schemes, the Changer of Ways?

I suppose that Orks and Tyranids are honest, in the way that a cow is honest... but in truth, the Tau are pretty honest by 40k standards- they promote a Greater Good in the galaxy, one of peace involving all races with are capable of co-existing in peace doing so.

... and the Tau have some good dakka- especially at night, since its the only faction to master night vision technology.

What's wrong with being as straight-forward and honest as Orks and Nids? You ask which faction is more honest than the Tau.. and then dismiss Orks out of hand?

Look I got it!

If none of previously mentioned races made the Tau! Then I know who did!

THE ORKS!

Think about it, they needed a weak opponent who would make good dakka and be there for them to come around and beat up occasionally. Obviously some Ork during the Crusades decided that the best way to make sure there was always a fight, would be to create one! Literally!

ORKS CONFIRMED FOR CREATING TAU!

*ahem* Also last I checked guys the reason half the machines in the world have a habit of being moody or sometimes going on a killing spree was because the Machine Spirit is essentially a organic computer made from the brain of a human. And we all know that Mars was attacked during the Crusades which cause chaos corruption to spread among the computers that destroyed them, or subverted their routines into killing anyone who touched a button on the south side of a planet during the 333rd rotation of the Autumnal Equinox.

Admech are the people who are like "what works?, oh this works. Why does this work? Can't figure it out? Well this is going to be the way you always use it then."

Back on topic. The reason none of this Warpstorm business makes sense is because GW are merely using Tau as a cashgrab, notice how they're the only faction that is tabletop that wasn't introduced 10,000 years ago? Instead they're introduced in a much closer time? That is so none of the screwed up lore is screwed up more, and they failed already.

Also we already know Tau can be seen by demons, Farsight fought some of them, whereas blanks/nulls have been quoted in lore as being to walk through hordes of demons un-noticed.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

]You can't say, "Tau are bad by IRL standards, so they suck," and then promote ANY other faction in 40k, because they're the only faction that will so much as give you a chance to have a life... at all.

Some people value honesty over gentleness.

And dakka over philosophy.

... and which faction do you think is more honest than the Tau? The Imperium, which invented nonsense rites and superstition to pair with all technology so no one ever thinks to invent anything? Which invented a religion to worship a dying atheist? If you are an Imperial, literally every bit of information you are fed by the Imperium is one big crock of bs.

Perhaps the Dark Eldar, who are more than happy to infiltrate a society so they can carry it off as slaves to be raped to death?

Perhaps the Eldar, who routinely manipulate other races (mostly Imperials, though) into doing their bidding?

Tzeentch, the father of schemes, the Changer of Ways?

I suppose that Orks and Tyranids are honest, in the way that a cow is honest... but in truth, the Tau are pretty honest by 40k standards- they promote a Greater Good in the galaxy, one of peace involving all races with are capable of co-existing in peace doing so.

... and the Tau have some good dakka- especially at night, since its the only faction to master night vision technology.

What's wrong with being as straight-forward and honest as Orks and Nids? You ask which faction is more honest than the Tau.. and then dismiss Orks out of hand?

In all fairness... Orks and Tyranids are just saying, " We wanna krump ya," or "You'll go well with dijon mustard!"

At that point, I'm not sure what honesty gets you. Especially if you DO go well with dijon mustard.

 carlos13th wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The Tau make do without the rituals and do just fine.

Regardless, that the rituals are needed IS A LIE! The entire understanding the Imperium has of technology IS A LIE!

It's ok to say that the AdMech is justified by what they do- it is another to say what they do is honest.
i
The Tau are FAR more honest than the Imperium is.

The Tau have never suffered a civilisation-wide catastrophe that wiped out all of their reliable data storage, either.

The Tau have rituals, anyway. Just because they don't chant them aloud while they perform the actions the chant describes does not make them any less mandatory. Just like you have your maintenance rituals. Oh, sure, they don't involve waving incense and chanting, but still. The most basic of AdMech rituals is "Strike the activation rune while invoking the name of the machine". Which translates to "for this machine, press the on button here."

Tau machines are also unlikely to brutally murder the person tending to them when pissed off too. Titans and Ships are not only sentient, but moody.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

... except he was locked in a box on Mars long before the Tau entered the Bronze Age, meaning that he really couldn't influence much of anything, assuming the box keeps him locked. If not, it's safe to assume that the more he is capable of, the more he has corrupted the AdMech with his presence.

The Nightbringer was sharded 60 million years ago, and yet all living creatures fear Death.

Eldar also use sorcery, but undermine Tzeentch, rather than supporting him. The Eldar had theiur own god of war, separate from Khorne. Debauchery existed before Slaanesh was born.

Man you really don't know anything about 40k, do you? Slaanesh has always existed. That is how the warp works.

... and yet, Slaanesh was born.

Chaos mumbo-jumbo aside, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle weren't born. THEY always existed. Slaanesh didn't. That's why it needed to be born.

So you now also don't know anything about basic quantum physics either? Wonderful.

It doesn't matter if something has a set birthdate if it exists in a Schrodinger state- IE having both never existed yet always having been. While Slaanesh had a set birthdate, it created itself. Chaos holds no respect for linear time, as it is Chaos.

Don't attempt to apply quantum physics to Sci Fi space magic and do so in a belittling tone. It's not real.

Slaanesh specifically exists in a Schrodinger state. Don't attempt to reply in a snarky manner while forming an improper argument when Slaanesh quite clearly exists in a state similar to Schrodinger's Cat.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So, they Laws of physics don't apply. Great.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

-Arthur C Clarke

Tech has nohing to do with physics. You can't go faster than the speed of light. That's why they use the warp.

That's an assumption based on the not-so-advanced science of the late 20th and early 21st century.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:


Except you can....

Look, if you're going to make claims, then at least have a good understanding of science. We're working out the math for an FTL drive right now. You don't have to accelerate yourself beyond the speed of light, you can just warp space to make yourself move. Just like the real life concept of the warp drive or wormholes. And we know it's possible because of black holes.

Also, we've slowed down light too.

Look, if you're going to make claims, then at least have a good understanding of science. Black Holes do not fold space, they "concentrate it".
Imagine a dot moving on a tiled paper sheet, it moves one square per second, that's the speed of light.
Then you pull that paper sheet away faster than one square per second, the dot actually goes backwards, and the light never reaches out.

The black hole has such incredible gravity and electromagnetic pull that the fabric of space (the tiles) itself is pulled in, along with anything that's on the tiles.
In itself, a black hole just demonstrates that infinite gravitic and electromagnetic pull will concentrate all of the space in one single point.

Light has also been accelerated, not just slowed, but it doesn't really say anything about folding space, or wormholes, none of which have been experimentally demonstrated.


There are theories as to how space could be folded, but not only is it uncertain that it would work, the energy requirements are just slowed, not that far from black hole energy levels.

Quickjager wrote:
Back on topic. The reason none of this Warpstorm business makes sense is because GW are merely using Tau as a cashgrab, notice how they're the only faction that is tabletop that wasn't introduced 10,000 years ago? Instead they're introduced in a much closer time? That is so none of the screwed up lore is screwed up more, and they failed already.

Also we already know Tau can be seen by demons, Farsight fought some of them, whereas blanks/nulls have been quoted in lore as being to walk through hordes of demons un-noticed.

Uh, Sisters of Battle and Ordo Hereticus: Created M.36

Carcharodons: Created M.37

Tyranids: Entered the galaxy M.40. Late M.40.

Crimson Slaughter: Created M.41

Your logic is flawed.

EmpNortonII wrote:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ritual?s=t


ritual
[rich-oo-uh l]

noun
1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
2. a system or collection of religious or other rites.
3. observance of set forms in public worship.
4. a book of rites or ceremonies.
5. a book containing the offices to be used by priests in administering the sacraments and for visitation of the sick, burial of the dead, etc.
6. a prescribed or established rite, ceremony, proceeding, or service:
the ritual of the dead.
7. prescribed, established, or ceremonial acts or features collectively, as in religious services.

By definition, what the Tau do isn't ritual. There is no religion, for the Tau, in fixing a drone or tank. To the Imperium, there is religion in it. There is faith in it. For the Tau, there isn't. Before you make suggestions about something, like rituals, you'd do well to pop open a dictionary and read what they are, since you can't apparently tell a ritual from a hole in the ground.

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ritual?showCookiePolicy=true

ritual (ˈrɪtjʊəl Pronunciation for ritual )

Definitions
noun

1) the prescribed or established form of a religious or other ceremony
2) such prescribed forms in general or collectively
3) stereotyped activity or behaviour
4) (psychology) any repetitive behaviour, such as hand-washing, performed by a person with a compulsive personality disorder
5) any formal act, institution, or procedure that is followed consistently ⇒ the ritual of the law

adjective:
6) of, relating to, or characteristic of religious, social, or other rituals

Try looking in a reputable dictionary, honey. You might get somewhere. See definition #5.

In fact, looking back at your post, it even says there that rituals don't have to be religious. Look! Emphasis mine

EmpNortonII wrote:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ritual?s=t


ritual
[rich-oo-uh l]

noun
1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
2. a system or collection of religious or other rites.
3. observance of set forms in public worship.
4. a book of rites or ceremonies.
5. a book containing the offices to be used by priests in administering the sacraments and for visitation of the sick, burial of the dead, etc.
6. a prescribed or established rite, ceremony, proceeding, or service:
the ritual of the dead.
7. prescribed, established, or ceremonial acts or features collectively, as in religious services.

The highlight on point #7? This phrase means that the mention of religious services is an example, not the whole application.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Hell by your logic, Germany should have won WWII due to the STG-44, MP40, and other advanced german rifles and submachineguns at the time... when in reality they got their asses kicked because they didn't have the logistics to take on mass production like the Soviet Union or America (Britain somewhat as well, although IIRC they weren't as industrialized to the degree of the USA and USSR in WWII.)

That's not correct.
Germany got their asses kicked because of two bad decisions:
1. fething the Russians, who had Communism, and thus a way to become strong very fast.
2. Not fething them right, failing to get the oil, and thus losing most of their technological advantage.

The USA did almost nothing in that war, the russian (and their winter) stopped the german army, fought them for three years, and then the americans said "gak we'll be late to that party", managed to land in Normandy because most of the germans were already gone to the East, then had a hard time fighting the small bits of german army that were not on the eastern front, THEN had to force the russians to wait in Berlin using the atom bomb threat, ...

You can't pretend that the USA or Britain had any big part in WWII other than politics.
The industrialization of USSR, although incredibly effective, had a huge cost in lives.

Without Russia, the allied forces wouldn't have had a chance.
Without oil shortage, London would've been trashed in a year, and v3 / ICBM's would've started hammering New York by 1943.
Without all that pressure/distraction from Russia and a free UK, the atom bomb would have been completed in Germany, and the US would've had nothing to stop the Japanese or the Russian, much less the Germans.



War is about alliances, focus, logistics and technological advantage.

If your cadians had a 3+ save and one lascannon each, implying good logistics and technology, Cadia would've stood there.

Technology improves the quality of what you deliver and the logistics to deliver it.
The AK-47, inspired by the Stg-44, is an advanced piece of technology in the sense that it was so well designed it could be assembled very quickly, cheaply, yet be very efficient.

There is thus nothing preventing pulse rifles from being effectively more mass produced than lasblasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

The Eldar might, but they chose a really bad place for them if they're supposed to oppose Chaos. They're on the far side of the galaxy from the EoT.

On the contrary.
Barring the threat of the Tyranid Hive fleets, being as far from the EoT to give them maximum time to evolve and gain strength is clearly a good strategic option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

So you now also don't know anything about basic quantum physics either? Wonderful.

It doesn't matter if something has a set birthdate if it exists in a Schrodinger state- IE having both never existed yet always having been. While Slaanesh had a set birthdate, it created itself. Chaos holds no respect for linear time, as it is Chaos.

You really shouldn't use physics in your arguments.

Besides, quantum physics is just a theoretical construct to discuss phenomena that cannot be explained with non-probabilistic theories, so in a way it's an admission of failure to understand.

Slaanesh, by the fluff of 40K, was born out of the devotion of Eldar to vile and perverted practices.

Chaos is still limited by linear time, or it would just do anything anywhere in the universe, which it seems it can't.