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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You know, really, if you want to bring attention to the corruption, just do not talk about social issues. As long as you keep those separate, as long as there is nothing in your writings that refers in any way to any social issue, the only way to answer you is to talk about corruption. And there, you win, because nobody can defend corruption without looking like an ass. If accusations of sexism is their shield, then just strike them in the back where they cannot use their shield by not making any kind of statement that could be even remotely linked to any social issue.

Pft. Like that'll ever happen That would be too concise and too the point.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well its the current thing we are discussing. I don't think Shadow Captain has been in the debate for a long time.

Why do I need to quote his post next to yours for you to realize it then? I mean, if you are about to accuse me of trolling because I do not understand but do not react when he says thing that will obviously confuse me because they are false…

 Asherian Command wrote:
I mean the whole issue is confusing. And almost mind boggling.

That is was what I said. People, including you, derived from it I was trolling and trying to get the thread closed.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
We already HAVE answered. You're ignoring it and persisting with this straw man. Ergo why we think you are trolling.

Apparently you do not even know what the thread is about. That is what Asherian Command said. So, yeah, sure you have answered. Just not really in a fashion coherent with what other have said.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Basically Quinn's infidelity brought the corruption to light. the game industry is trying to shift the focus to misogyny and SJW stuff to avoid the real issue of addressing the corruption.

So, it is about corruption, but some people (not the game industry, as far as I know no representative of any game company is involved, only journalists) trying to voluntarily confuse the issue by mixing this and social issues while actually those are two separate thing. It is what I just wrote. And everyone told me it was not that.

 Asherian Command wrote:

So, what about that:
So, if I was to sum up the whole thing, some people want to speak about social issues in gaming, other want to speak about corruption in gaming, those two subjects are not linked in any way, but some journalists rejoice in mixing them, so actually nobody understand what anybody is saying anymore.

Is that better for you? I just changed one word. I put journalists instead of people. Seems to be describing exactly what you were talking about. Yet when I said that, you all piled in on how I was wrong and had understood nothing…

I think you are missing the point.

It is a response. Its their defense. This whole sexist argument is coming from the journalists. They are saying that We (The Gamers) are sexist. Because there is a vocal minority who are targeting Zoe Quinn for sleeping with other guys. Which is not the major argument from the community. Its the corruption in games.

Okay, you are saying that I am missing the point just to write the exact damn thing I wrote below as being the real point. Only difference is that you got one more precision about the fact they are are making generalizations about gamers.
You know, really, if you want to bring attention to the corruption, just do not talk about social issues. As long as you keep those separate, as long as there is nothing in your writings that refers in any way to any social issue, the only way to answer you is to talk about corruption. And there, you win, because nobody can defend corruption without looking like an ass. If accusations of sexism is their shield, then just strike them in the back where they cannot use their shield by not making any kind of statement that could be even remotely linked to any social issue.

Oh you were confusing me then.

And correct. The gamers have been outcrying the corruption and the journalists are lumping us in as sexist pigs.

Wasn't going to do this, but due to it dethreading this I'mma gonna have to;

Don't argue with Hybrid, guys. I tried that with Smite and was fully able to refute his points and he still "Didn't get it". He claimed there were no Black gods, despite the game having Mayan characters. I showed him Xbalanque and Chaac, two Mayan (OP as hell) black gods. He claimed the representation of Chinese Gods were terrible because they didn't have Chinese Eyes (What does that even mean?!?), and that Ra wasn't dark skinned enough; You can read everything here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610519.page and here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610363.page.

He's either really young or intentionally being obtuse.


So Gamers are Nazi's now, huh?

 Slarg232 wrote:
Wasn't going to do this, but due to it dethreading this I'mma gonna have to;

Don't argue with Hybrid, guys. I tried that with Smite and was fully able to refute his points and he still "Didn't get it". He claimed there were no Black gods, despite the game having Mayan characters. I showed him Xbalanque and Chaac, two Mayan (OP as hell) black gods. He claimed the representation of Chinese Gods were terrible because they didn't have Chinese Eyes (What does that even mean?!?), and that Ra wasn't dark skinned enough; You can read everything here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610519.page and here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610363.page.

He's either really young or intentionally being obtuse.


So Gamers are Nazi's now, huh?

Apparently....

According to game's journalists everywhere.

 Slarg232 wrote:
Wasn't going to do this, but due to it dethreading this I'mma gonna have to;

Don't argue with Hybrid, guys. I tried that with Smite and was fully able to refute his points and he still "Didn't get it".

Nope. You “did not get it”. Or anything. When I explicitly say “League of Legend is very bad, and Smite is worse”, you come up with new arguments for why I am stupid not to see that League of Legend is very bad. You are basically the definition of not getting it.

And worse than ISIS terrorists.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And worse than ISIS.

Does that mean we're in the Danger Zone?

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl - I've got to be honest here, it does appear that you're 'up to something'.

What, I've not 100% sure, but I've got a pretty good idea.

Archer is #NotYourShield.

LOL!

 Slarg232 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And worse than ISIS.

Does that mean we're in the Danger Zone?

Apparently. After the whole bloody Lizard Squad debacle (Who have finally been caught) who's goal was to cause dismay and chaos in the gaming community (seriously people are not in the right mind sometimes).

I'd say most people who send in bomb threats aren't in the right mind.

 Alpharius wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl - I've got to be honest here, it does appear that you're 'up to something'.

What, I've not 100% sure, but I've got a pretty good idea.

I got Asherian Command to agree with my original assessment of the situation. That is already quite “something”. I am not sure that is the “something” you were referring to, but I am quite happy with that “something”. I am still interested in knowing what other members that called me a troll think the situation actually is, because they seem to continue to believe my assessment was ridiculously off the mark.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
This all can be traced back to the Mass Effect 3 issue. Where journalists and the community attacked each other and did a similar thing. But this time.

The community has risen up and spoke up and called the journalists out and said that the journalists are biased. They want the journalists to write better, to do something else.

They want the journalists to write not about the specs, but about the games themselves, what the games mean to them, not what the graphics are capable of, What is fun or not. They are tired of this biased ideals.

This whole idea of missing the point of a game.

Giving the same game franchise a perfect score, when it has nothing good to add to the community.

Okay, how the hell is that coherent with

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
This thread is about corrupt interractions between indie developers (Quinn) and journalists.

Are some big corporations corrupt? Yes.

Do they sometimes use money to manipulate gaming media? Yes.

But that's not what this thread is about. If you want to discuss corporations, start a new thread. Please stop trying to derail this thread.

On one hand, it is not about corruption of game journalists by big corporation. On the other hand, it is about how game journalists spoke about that game from a big corporation. How the freaking hell am I supposed to understand that? You keep changing what the issue is every time I try to pinpoint it!

Because the topic of discussion is corruption in journalism and their relationship with publishers/developers, not the big corporations themselves like EA.

Your original complaint was basically "well, if you think journalists are corrupt why aren't you complaining about corporations? They're even more corrupt!" Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

Consider this "something" then - this thread is being monitored.

This is a general in thread warning.

Anything that goes against the rules of this site will be dealt with via warnings and possibly suspensions.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Your original complaint was basically "well, if you think journalists are corrupt why aren't you complaining about corporations? They're even more corrupt!" Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

It was actually “Well, if you think journalists are corrupt why are you complaining about SJW? They are not the one corrupting journalists, or at least they are doing only a tiny, tiny portion of the corrupting compared to corporations."
Talking about SJW only diverts attention from the corruption thing. It does not help fighting corruption, it just make people like Wil Wheaton think this is about social issues and react accordingly. It is totally counterproductive to fighting corruption.

 Slarg232 wrote:
Wasn't going to do this, but due to it dethreading this I'mma gonna have to;

Don't argue with Hybrid, guys. I tried that with Smite and was fully able to refute his points and he still "Didn't get it". He claimed there were no Black gods, despite the game having Mayan characters. I showed him Xbalanque and Chaac, two Mayan (OP as hell) black gods. He claimed the representation of Chinese Gods were terrible because they didn't have Chinese Eyes (What does that even mean?!?), and that Ra wasn't dark skinned enough; You can read everything here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610519.page and here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610363.page.

He's either really young or intentionally being obtuse.


So Gamers are Nazi's now, huh?

Thank you. He's going on my ignore list now.

We did, and were told "That's not really an issue".

The people whom tell us what to expect later for games, tell companies how good their games are, and report on what happens in the gaming world are actually biased, give out awards based more on who knows who than how good a game is, and refuse to report on incidents involving their friends. They also seem to be coordinating to try to silence the publics opinion, as they all release articles saying the same message, supress forum activities, and blacklist developers who speak out against them. If you cannot see why that is a problem, that is only on you, as we have explained it multiple times.




You know, with the fact that they've Godwinned the Gamergate, I'd almost be willing to believe the stupid "Bruise myself then cry about it" Quinnspiracy.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Because the topic of discussion is corruption in journalism and their relationship with publishers/developers, not the big corporations themselves like EA.

EA is a publisher...

It's not like Titanfall got all around laurels, despite having even less of a single player campaign than most MP FPS games, even though other FPS games are frequently scored down for having lackluster single player or anything. Hell, when's the last time anyone really reported on all the gak with Origin (aka, a platform so buggy early Steam looks flawless in comparison). Not to mention how the media has been pushing their piracy "it's killing us!" fantasy for years. EDIT: And lest we forget, the Escapist Review of DA2, which pretty much screams from the first sentence "EA Paid us to give this game a perfect score!"

Yeah, major corporations aren't at the very least a related topic to corruption in gaming journalism

 LordofHats wrote:
Yeah, major corporations aren't at the very least a related topic to corruption in gaming journalism

Nope. SJW are. They hand out tons of dollar to game journalists to corrupt them into giving bad scores to any game that does feature a while male hetero protagonist. This has been so successful on putting a huge pressure on big video game companies that it is pretty hard to find one such protagonist these days.
That, or speaking in length about SJW and basically not about major game corporation is counterproductive when it comes to corruption in gaming journalism. You tell me.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
They hand out tons of dollar to game journalists to corrupt them into giving bad scores to any game that does feature a while male hetero protagonist. This has been so successful on putting a huge pressure on big video game companies that it is pretty hard to find one such protagonist these days.

I think Machu posted it once, but there was a really good article about how the games industry (namely marketing departments in the mega publishers) use focus groups and basically have research teams that are organized and paid to produce "self-full-filling prophecy" data. It's not so much that they want to make nothing but games with straight white male protagonists, its that much like Hollywood, they're horribly averse to taking even the slightest risk and have created a system of 'yes men' to tell them what they want to hear.

I doubt most gamers have an issue with female protagonists, but as has been shown in a few cases, the industry has managed to convince itself that unless the name 'Lara Croft' is involved, gamers aren't interested and they point to various games as evidence that this is true (Metroid wtf were they thinking handing this to Team Ninja, and Beyond Good and Evil* as examples).

*Hell I can't think of many examples better than Beyond Good and Evil. One of the most acclaimed games of all time, everyone who played it wanted a sequel, and Ubisoft basically stonewalled the production of another game because "Jade is a chick" as if that has any relevance to the game's less than desired sales.

"X sells so we sell X." Slightly circular.

I really liked Beyond Good and Evil.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
They hand out tons of dollar to game journalists to corrupt them into giving bad scores to any game that does feature a while male hetero protagonist. This has been so successful on putting a huge pressure on big video game companies that it is pretty hard to find one such protagonist these days.

I think Machu posted it once, but there was a really good article about how the games industry (namely marketing departments in the mega publishers) use focus groups and basically have research teams that are organized and paid to produce "self-full-filling prophecy" data. It's not so much that they want to make nothing but games with straight white male protagonists, its that much like Hollywood, they're horribly averse to taking even the slightest risk and have created a system of 'yes men' to tell them what they want to hear.

I doubt most gamers have an issue with female protagonists, but as has been shown in a few cases, the industry has managed to convince itself that unless the name 'Lara Croft' is involved, gamers aren't interested and they point to various games as evidence that this is true (Metroid wtf were they thinking handing this to Team Ninja, and Beyond Good and Evil* as examples).

*Hell I can't think of many examples better than Beyond Good and Evil. One of the most acclaimed games of all time, everyone who played it wanted a sequel, and Ubisoft basically stonewalled the production of another game because "Jade is a chick" as if that has any relevance to the game's less than desired sales.

Well they were just handled poorly. The games weren't interesting. Because well... The female character just didn't feel real. The character felt flat, and not three dimensional.

A lot of people did, which is why people have been clamouring for a new one.

 daedalus wrote:
I really liked Beyond Good and Evil.

If you didn't, I'd have to press the doomsday button

EDIT: Good news though is that it took a decade, but apparently Beyond Good and Evil 2 is finally go

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Yeah, major corporations aren't at the very least a related topic to corruption in gaming journalism

Nope. SJW are. They hand out tons of dollar to game journalists to corrupt them into giving bad scores to any game that does feature a while male hetero protagonist. This has been so successful on putting a huge pressure on big video game companies that it is pretty hard to find one such protagonist these days.
That, or speaking in length about SJW and basically not about major game corporation is counterproductive when it comes to corruption in gaming journalism. You tell me.

The gamers aren't the ones talking about social issues, its the media that are talking about it in what appears to be a concerted effort to divert attention from the corruption case, then out of the woodwork come all the SJW types to join the bandwagon and label all gamers as misogynistic Neanderthals. How haven't you understood this already?

People do not care about the protagonist's gender if the game is well-made.

How many good games with strictly female protagonists are out there right now? Discount all RPG games with a customizable character as despite most players, by a large margin, still make male characters in said games (i.e.: Dragon Age, Mass Effect), the protagonist does not have a gender, he is given one by the player. Most games I can think of are older, like Beyond Good and Evil. Borderlands 2 is a very good example yet no exclusive woman either.

Appealing to the biggest market is the most logical solution and as long as most gamers are male by a large shot, it will stay to be that way.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A lot of people did, which is why people have been clamouring for a new one.

It was a great game, I wouldn't know why. But it would be hard to do it right sadly. As most reboots or sequels are usually terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
People do not care about the protagonist's gender if the game is well-made.

How many good games with strictly female protagonists are out there right now? Discount all RPG games with a customizable character as despite most players, by a large margin, still make male characters in said games, the protagonist does not have a gender, he is given one by the player. Most games I can think of are older, like Beyond Good and Evil. Borderlands 2 is a very good example yet no exclusive woman either.

Appealing to the biggest market is the most logical solution and as long as most gamers are male by a large shot, it will stay to be that way.

I don't think it is anymore.

I am not sure what you are referring to