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2014/09/05 04:11:43
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
well at this point many of them are shooting much wider guns than just at zoe quinn, probably because some of them realized they were standing drenched in misogyny and tried to distance and legitimize their concerns without actually asking how legitimate their concerns were
most of them are trying to paint it as an outright them vs games journalism
because they're crazy
Okay. I Am sorry, but that is completely false. It may of started that way, but people aren't targeting Zoe anymore. Infact the common argument is. We really don't care. Its the idea that journalism might be indeed corrupt.
There is actual evidence to support that. There is a corruption in the journalistic side of gaming. The click baits, the fantastic scores for games, when weeks before you were hyping it to high heaven. To the quotes in games from a reviewer. To the rating of games. To the ignoring of certain games.
These are legitimate concerns. Not misygonistic. I am going outright and saying. I am asexual. I DON'T CARE.
how so -tal, i am interested in demonstratable instances of video game journalism corruption
has there been a link shown between marketing investment and favourable reviews
Oh dear god. This type of thinking is completely wrong. Its like sticking your head into the ground and plugging your ears and singing ALALALLA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
When there are examples of it happening.
With the halo 4 mountain dew commericals.
With the games journalists who endorse pepsi or EA or being bought and paid for by large companies.
To being the ones who HAND OUT AWARDS.
The entire idea is that the games journalists are no-longer the medium to allow us to have informed decisions.
Games Journalism is a dying a breed, and it has been for a long time. People have stopped quoting IGN, people have stopped caring, because we know what they think about call of duty. They give it a perfect score.... Every single iteration.
Gamers are tired of this. They are tired of this harrassment and seeing the gamers as one identity group. They don't see it as a community. They see it as a sexist, racist white bullies. There are some bad people among the gaming community.
But that happens in every group. Including the journalistic side of the debate.
Who have not been angels in this whole debate.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/05 04:23:52
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
There are still people going "No! You're only annoyed because this time it was a woman!". I mean really people, this stopped being about Zoe two weeks ago.
CorporateLogo wrote: I would say to take a look through Patrick Klepek's twitter and tumblr, but I don't think anyone will be convinced one way or the other at this point
May I ask who that is?
2014/09/05 04:32:46
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
H.B.M.C. wrote: There are still people going "No! You're only annoyed because this time it was a woman!".
That particular line of argument incenses my wife no end. I can't imagine why.
Some of the shield retorts are even more horrific, getting cries of "Race traitor, Uncle Toms" and so much awful sexism/insults towards everything that "Isn't" white and straight.
Social Justice indeed.
2014/09/05 07:05:09
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
H.B.M.C. wrote: There are still people going "No! You're only annoyed because this time it was a woman!". I mean really people, this stopped being about Zoe two weeks ago.
It did. But it is a fantastic way to attempt to shut down the debate and silence opposition. Even if it fails to shut down the debate then it completely derails it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/05 10:55:43
2014/09/05 12:58:25
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I'm pretty sure I pointed out in the other thread before it was closed "why is it no one really cared this much about this issue until some girl was accused of prostituting herself?" Yeah, you could probably make a point there about some underlying problems in society, but to jump the conclusion that it's a gamer problem is a bit bull headed, and to then ignore the entire issue just because there are some underlying prejudices is a bit daft.
EDIT: Especially since there were people who cared about those other incidents to begin with. Hell part of the reason this one has blown up so much is because one side keeps creaming "misogyny! misogyny!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/05 13:02:05
LordofHats wrote: I'm pretty sure I pointed out in the other thread before it was closed "why is it no one really cared this much about this issue until some girl was accused of prostituting herself?" Yeah, you could probably make a point there about some underlying problems in society, but to jump the conclusion that it's a gamer problem is a bit bull headed, and to then ignore the entire issue just because there are some underlying prejudices is a bit daft.
I think a lot of people have assumed that the problem has been happening for a very long time.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/05 13:03:53
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I think a lot of people have assumed that the problem has been happening for a very long time.
Yeah but it's never been this big a deal. It would be a two three day ordeal where someone somewhere would say "look at the corruption inherent in the system!" and everyone would just shrug and move on. This incident is the first time the problem has really blown up like this. There's no one not talking about, or at least not paying attention to it. It's become too big for anyone to ignore even if they choose not to comment.
No previous incident has ever been taken this far.
I think a lot of people have assumed that the problem has been happening for a very long time.
Yeah but it's never been this big a deal. It would be a two three day ordeal where someone somewhere would say "look at the corruption inherent in the system!" and everyone would just shrug and move on. This incident is the first time the problem has really blown up like this. There's no one not talking about, or at least not paying attention to it. It's become too big for anyone to ignore even if they choose not to comment.
No previous incident has ever been taken this far.
"look at the corruption inherent in the system!" LOL, I love that movie
I think the biggest part of the issue is that if you submitted a game to IGN and your $100 for a chance to win an award for your hard work and some recognition, You were just throwing your money away unless you were in the click, or had someone sleeping around on the inside on your behalf.
2014/09/05 13:29:23
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I think a lot of people have assumed that the problem has been happening for a very long time.
Yeah but it's never been this big a deal. It would be a two three day ordeal where someone somewhere would say "look at the corruption inherent in the system!" and everyone would just shrug and move on. This incident is the first time the problem has really blown up like this. There's no one not talking about, or at least not paying attention to it. It's become too big for anyone to ignore even if they choose not to comment.
No previous incident has ever been taken this far.
Agreed. It has been brewing for a very long time.
And surprisingly its working.
There are rumblings that the media is trying to change.
I think a lot of people have assumed that the problem has been happening for a very long time.
Yeah but it's never been this big a deal. It would be a two three day ordeal where someone somewhere would say "look at the corruption inherent in the system!" and everyone would just shrug and move on. This incident is the first time the problem has really blown up like this. There's no one not talking about, or at least not paying attention to it. It's become too big for anyone to ignore even if they choose not to comment.
No previous incident has ever been taken this far.
"look at the corruption inherent in the system!" LOL, I love that movie
I think the biggest part of the issue is that if you submitted a game to IGN and your $100 for a chance to win an award for your hard work and some recognition, You were just throwing your money away unless you were in the click, or had someone sleeping around on the inside on your behalf.
Yeah that happens. But polygon and kotaku. Yeah.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/05 13:36:16
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/05 14:35:16
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Yeah... I'm glad my coffee is gone, otherwise it would have been all over my monitor now. If anyone needs me, I'll be giggling like the 12 year old man child that I am.
If you are actually 12 years old, your are more of a child child than a man child, no?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/05 14:54:17
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Yeah... I'm glad my coffee is gone, otherwise it would have been all over my monitor now. If anyone needs me, I'll be giggling like the 12 year old man child that I am.
LordofHats wrote: I'm pretty sure I pointed out in the other thread before it was closed "why is it no one really cared this much about this issue until some girl was accused of prostituting herself?" Yeah, you could probably make a point there about some underlying problems in society, but to jump the conclusion that it's a gamer problem is a bit bull headed, and to then ignore the entire issue just because there are some underlying prejudices is a bit daft.
EDIT: Especially since there were people who cared about those other incidents to begin with. Hell part of the reason this one has blown up so much is because one side keeps creaming "misogyny! misogyny!"
People cared about it before, but it's simply never received this much attention. I don't know why that is. Maybe we're simply at the tipping point.
Does no one remember the article Robert Florence wrote in Eurogamer that got him fired?
Spoiler:
There is an image doing the rounds on the internet this week. It is an image of Geoff Keighley, a Canadian games journalist, sitting dead-eyed beside a garish Halo 4 poster and a table of Mountain Dew and Doritos. It is a tragic, vulgar image. But I think that it is the most important image in games journalism today. I think we should all find it and study it. It is important.
Geoff Keighley is often described as an industry leader. A games expert. He is one of the most prominent games journalists in the world. And there he sits, right there, beside a table of snacks. He will be sitting there forever, in our minds. That's what he is now. And in a sense, it is what he always was. As Executive Producer of the mindless, horrifying spectacle that is the Spike TV Video Game Awards he oversees the delivery of a televisual table full of junk, an entire festival of cultural Doritos.
How many games journalists are sitting beside that table?
Recently, the Games Media Awards rolled around again, and games journos turned up to a thing to party with their friends in games PR. Games PR people and games journos voted for their favourite friends, and friends gave awards to friends, and everyone had a good night out. Eurogamer won an award. Kieron Gillen was named an industry legend (and if anyone is a legend in games writing, he is) but he deserves a better platform for recognition than those GMAs. The GMAs shouldn't exist. By rights, that room should be full of people who feel uncomfortable in each other's company. PR people should be looking at games journos and thinking, "That person makes my job very challenging." Why are they all best buddies? What the hell is going on?
Whenever you criticise the GMAs, as I've done in the past, you face the accusation of being "bitter". I've removed myself from those accusations somewhat by consistently making it clear that I'm not a games journalist. I'm a writer who regularly writes about games, that's all. And I've been happy for people who have been nominated for GMAs in the past, because I've known how much they wanted to be accepted by that circle. There is nothing wrong with wanting to belong, or wanting to be recognised by your peers. But it's important to ask yourself who your peers are, and exactly what it is you feel a need to belong to.
2
Just today, as I sat down to write this piece, I saw that there were games journalists winning PS3s on Twitter. There was a competition at those GMAs - tweet about our game and win a PS3. One of those stupid, crass things. And some games journos took part. All piling in, opening a sharing bag of Doritos, tweeting the hashtag as instructed. And today the winners were announced. Then a whole big argument happened, and other people who claim to be journalists claimed to see nothing wrong with what those so-called journalists had done. I think the winners are now giving away their PS3s, but it's too late. It's too late. Let me show you an example.
One games journalist, Lauren Wainwright, tweeted: "Urm... Trion were giving away PS3s to journalists at the GMAs. Not sure why that's a bad thing?"
Now, a few tweets earlier, she also tweeted this: "Lara header, two TR pix in the gallery and a very subtle TR background. #obsessed @tombraider pic.twitter.com/VOWDSavZ"
And instantly I am suspicious. I am suspicious of this journalist's apparent love for Tomb Raider. I am asking myself whether she's in the pocket of the Tomb Raider PR team. I'm sure she isn't, but the doubt is there. After all, she sees nothing wrong with journalists promoting a game to win a PS3, right?
Another journalist, one of the winners of the PS3 competition, tweeted this at disgusted RPS writer John Walker: "It was a hashtag, not an advert. Get off the pedestal." Now, this was Dave Cook, a guy I've met before. A good guy, as far as I could tell. But I don't believe for one second that Dave doesn't understand that in this time of social media madness a hashtag is just as powerful as an advert. Either he's on the defensive or he doesn't get what being a journalist is actually about.
I want to make a confession. I stalk games journalists. It's something I've always done. I keep an eye on people. I have a mental list of games journos who are the very worst of the bunch. The ones who are at every PR launch event, the ones who tweet about all the freebies they get. I am fascinated by them. I won't name them here, because it's a horrible thing to do, but I'm sure some of you will know who they are. I'm fascinated by these creatures because they are living one of the most strange existences - they are playing at being a thing that they don't understand. And if they don't understand it, how can they love it? And if they don't love it, why are they playing at being it?
3
This club, this weird club of pals and buddies that make up a fair proportion of games media, needs to be broken up somehow. They have a powerful bond, though - held together by the pressures of playing to the same audience. Games publishers and games press sources are all trying to keep you happy, and it's much easier to do that if they work together. Publishers are well aware that some of you go crazy if a new AAA title gets a crappy review score on a website, and they use that knowledge to keep the boat from rocking. Everyone has a nice easy ride if the review scores stay decent and the content of the games are never challenged. Websites get their exclusives. Ad revenue keeps rolling in. The information is controlled. Everyone stays friendly. It's a steady flow of Mountain Dew pouring from the hills of the money men, down through the fingers of the weary journos, down into your mouths. At some point you will have to stop drinking that stuff and demand something better.
Standards are important. They are hard to live up to, sure, but that's the point of them. The trouble with games journalism is that there are no standards. We expect to see Geoff Keighley sitting beside a table of s***. We expect to see the flurry of excitement when the GMAs get announced, instead of a chuckle and a roll of the eyes. We expect to see our games journos failing to get what journalistic integrity means. The brilliant writers, like John Walker for example, don't get the credit they deserve simply because they don't play the game. Indeed, John Walker gets told to get off his pedestal because he has high standards and is pointing out a worrying problem.
Geoff Keighley, meanwhile, is sitting beside a table of snacks. A table of delicious Doritos and refreshing Mountain Dew. He is, as you'll see on Wikipedia, "only one of two journalists, the other being 60 Minutes correspondent Mike Wallace, profiled in the Harvard Business School press book 'Geeks and Geezers' by noted leadership expert Warren Bennis." Geoff Keighley is important. He is a leader in his field. He once said, "There's such a lack of investigative journalism. I wish I had more time to do more, sort of, investigation." And yet there he sits, glassy-eyed, beside a table heaving with sickly Doritos and Mountain Dew.
It's an important image. Study it.
That's from two years ago. I think the issue has been quietly gaining steam. Perhaps there's not enough fire in the Zoe Quinn smoke for this to have been the appropriate jumping off point, but the horse is out of the barn regardless now, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/05 16:07:39
2014/09/05 16:14:16
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I think a lot of people have assumed that the problem has been happening for a very long time.
Yeah but it's never been this big a deal. It would be a two three day ordeal where someone somewhere would say "look at the corruption inherent in the system!" and everyone would just shrug and move on. This incident is the first time the problem has really blown up like this. There's no one not talking about, or at least not paying attention to it. It's become too big for anyone to ignore even if they choose not to comment.
No previous incident has ever been taken this far.
I think it's the first time a lot of gaming blogs have gone around saying gamers are dead, gamers are toxic , gamers are misogynists all because of one incident though
My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
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2014/09/05 16:15:48
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
People cared about it before, but it's simply never received this much attention. I don't know why that is. Maybe we're simply at the tipping point.
Everyone knows that gaming "journalists" are bought and paid for, there has been more than enough high profile incidents to prove it, but what gave this particular issue this much attention wasn't the "sex scandal", it was the fact that instead of covering up or just shrugging their shoulders and moving on, the gaming media decided to try and obfuscate the whole issue and strike back with their "gamers are dead" campaign. And if there is one sure thing that can unite a group of people is an attack on their perceived identity, especially when that attack comes from the people that were supposed to protect their interests in the first place.
If that series of articles hadn't been published, if all those posts trying to discuss it in all those sites hadn't been censored, then people would have treated this like every other known case of corruption in the industry and would have moved on after a few days and everything would have gone back to normal.
2014/09/05 20:02:23
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
About that...have Publishers and Developers started using quotes from independent and amateur youtube reviewers and commentators like TotalBiscuit on their boxes and to advertise, rather than the traditional gaming sites like Kotaku and IGN? I imagine that would be quite a snub.
2014/09/05 20:20:03
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
About that...have Publishers and Developers started using quotes from independent and amateur youtube reviewers and commentators like TotalBiscuit on their boxes and to advertise, rather than the traditional gaming sites like Kotaku and IGN? I imagine that would be quite a snub.
I hope not; We need Game devs to have both sides. While TotalBiscuit is one of the more professional ones (that I've seen) almost all Youtube Gamers are a little too "Brodudeski" in my opinion. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just that we need them to have people whose job it is to analyze games and are scrutinized by the masses, and their livelyhood is based around reviewing games. Kind of like......
Well gak....
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/05 20:25:12
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
About that...have Publishers and Developers started using quotes from independent and amateur youtube reviewers and commentators like TotalBiscuit on their boxes and to advertise, rather than the traditional gaming sites like Kotaku and IGN? I imagine that would be quite a snub.
I hope not; We need Game devs to have both sides. While TotalBiscuit is one of the more professional ones (that I've seen) almost all Youtube Gamers are a little too "Brodudeski" in my opinion. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just that we need them to have people whose job it is to analyze games and are scrutinized by the masses, and their livelyhood is based around reviewing games. Kind of like......
Well gak....
I'd say we don't need any publishers, reviewers, or com mentors. All we need is a open forum like amazon has. Everyone can rate a new game and comment on a game. The rating of the game will be more of a consensus of the people who played the game, instead of a few people who may be "less than unbiased."