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You can guarantee cleansing flame, gate, sanctuary, hammerhand, banishment with whatever unit you build your libby into in GKs...

 Zakdaddy666 wrote:
If only double cad were tournament viable....

They are if you're on the west coast

Sure, if you take special characters/use your LOW slot instead of a 2nd Librarian.

I don't care if one of my powers is redundant. The rest won't be.

And as I've shown, the Telekinesis powers are worse than Sanctic powers.

GoI>Levitation
VoD>Psychic Maelstrom
Cleansing Flame>Shockwave
Banishment<Assail
Sanctuary>Telekine Dome
Hammerhand=Objuration Mechanicum(slight edge to OM, but not enough to tip it)
Purge Soul=Crush(autowound with no armor saves vs usable vehicles I'd say is a wash)

2 powers that are roughly equal, and then 4/5 of the other powers being superior in Sanctic over Telekinesis.

I don't want to blow points on Stern or Draigo in addition to the 2 Librarian/GM's I'm taking. Those points are better spent elsewhere.

I'd rather use both.

Draigo+Stern are sure bets on turning any unit of high damage models into a very mobile 2++ Deathstar, as they come pre-loaded with the best Sanct powers for Deathstarring. Add in a Booked up Libby for a 5/7 chance at Vortex, and you are golden.

SJ

I don't feel at all comfortable dumping 1000 points into a single unit.

I'd rather have 2 still quite effective 10 man units, each with a single Librarian in them.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I don't feel at all comfortable dumping 1000 points into a single unit.

I'd rather have 2 still quite effective 10 man units, each with a single Librarian in them.

I play this way as well. Two Libbys in either 10-man Termie squads or 5-man Pallies with Apothecary is pretty nice. You're going to get what you need from 1 Libby with the Liber Daemonica at the least. What I'm trying to flush out is whether I'm better off rolling Sanctic for the other libby or going Divination. The chance for the 4++ power there, or ignores cover, or re-rolling saves (to help make the Libby a bit more "tanky", along wtih Prescience is pretty tempting.

Although I will say that at least Stern is playable now! Whoo hoooo!

Jefffar wrote:
Wait a moment here. How come we are talking about Gravstars vs. Wave Serpants? Isn't this a GK thread?

Well, GK was asking about support from a Gravstar.
Then the question came up how to deal with a Serpent spam list.

I really feel like rolling on the Santic table is a waste. Most of those powers GK units already have.

If a list needs to be built around Gate, then wouldn't Draigo be a better idea? I mean, ok, you'd have to spend points on an HQ on top of him because he is a LoW, but the Gate is a sure thing....

Hardly. Only power that is regularly duplicated is HH. Sanctuary is only on the DK and Stern.

I'd like the possibility of having Vortex of Doom and Gate, and another Sanctuary for my other squad.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hardly. Only power that is regularly duplicated is HH. Sanctuary is only on the DK and Stern.

I'd like the possibility of having Vortex of Doom and Gate, and another Sanctuary for my other squad.

Well, cleansing flame is the Purifiers thing. So that and hammerhand are around for sure. The primaris is situational obviously (psychic shriek otoh is useful always) so who cares if it is around or not. Purge Soul no one cares about. And Vortex of Doom is nasty sure, but holy jeebus, it is expensive to cast for what it is. So we're down to Gate and Sanctuary.

Sure its expensive, but you'll have a minimum of 11ish warp charges each turn. We have no trouble casting powers.

Here is the 2,000 point list I just used this past weekend:

Grey Knights:

HQ:
Librarian, ML3, Storm Bolter, Dominica Liber Daemonica - 165

Troops:
5 GK Terminators, Psycannon, 4 Halberds, 1 Hammer - 203

Heavy Support:
Nemesis Dreadknight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemsis Greatsword - 225
Nemesis Dreadknight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemsis Greatsword - 225

Lord of War:
Kaldor Draigo - 245

Imperial Fists - Sentinels of Terra

HQ:
Librarian, ML 2, Bones of Osrak - 115

Troops:
10 Tactical Marines, Meltagun, Combi-melta, - 165
Drop pod - 35

Heavy Support:
3 Devastator Centurions, Grav Cannons with Grav amps - 250

Imperial Knight:
Knight Errant - 370

It comes to 1,998 points all together so I am satisfied with that. The list worked wonderfully for me. Draigo, the 2 Librarians and the Centurions all go in one squad and start on the board with Draigo in front to tank shots. I did not declare Draigo my Warlord though, I gave that to my Librarian seeing as Draigo was there to absorb shots and I wanted to take rolls on the GK Warlord Traits table trying to get the Trait that would give my Librarian a 5th power. I got the trait that comes stock on Draigo even with re-rolling. I also started with the Imperial Knight and both Dreadknights on the board, I had gotten screwed a couple of times putting them in deep strike when needing them on the board and didn't use their shunt that game anyway so I kind felt like I shouldn't of paid for the Personal Teleporters that game but this game even with starting them on the board, they performed wonderfully, that 12" move distance being the best with the 30" shunt being able to get my Dreadknights in on the same turn that the Drop Pod hit and my terminators came in.

My opponent who was playing Emperor's Children and Slaaneshi daemons with a Nurgle daemons being summoned. He seized the initiative but I quickly recovered and Gated my DraigoCenturionStar behind his lines to utterly annihilate his Daemon Prince warlord with 13 grav shots to the back. First blood and Slay the Warlord all in one go. That was pretty much the tone that would set the battle. He worried me a bit when he got my Centurions into close combat killing one but Draigo saved the day when he Gated the squad out of close combat (Our ruling for this is that Gate of Infinity is a blessing therefore can be used while in Close Combat and the rule book said that close combat ends when they are no longer in base contact. therefore the movement was allowed) and proceeded to grav the heck out of the squad. My Imperial Knight also then came to the rescue and gave Lucious the Chainsword to the face after he used his thermal cannon to melt the others in the unit. After that it was mainly cleaning up the rest. My opponent made a lot of FNP saves too, otherwise this would of been a worse game for him. Plague Marines gave me a bit of trouble as well but a Dreadknight did well in taking them out.

Overall, probably going to be my main 2,000 point list. I am trying to bring this same flavor to lower point games and still be successful. 1,850 is my next challenge and 1,500 as well but anything around 1,000 is hard to fit anything but a GK list in. That Nemesis Strike Force definitely provides some awesome flexibility in list building and has let me combine my 3 favorite Imperial Armies.

Super Newb wrote:
I really feel like rolling on the Santic table is a waste. Most of those powers GK units already have.

If a list needs to be built around Gate, then wouldn't Draigo be a better idea? I mean, ok, you'd have to spend points on an HQ on top of him because he is a LoW, but the Gate is a sure thing....

dude... getting a ranged D weapon is HUGE !

gate is HUGE, +1 to ++ is HUGE, the other powers are usefull, quite literally every single power is good.

considering that they will be with TWC or TH SS termies who lack hammer hand, every single spell has a use.

The only thing I am considering is running one Libby with Sanctic and a 2nd with Divination.

That gives you a guaranteed rerolls to hit(useful when every shot needs to count) and the possibility of Forwarning(which means 3++ is a possibility)

The ideal combo would be one libby getting VoD, Gate, and Sanctuary. And the other getting Forewarning and Prescience. With any other powers being a bonus.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only thing I am considering is running one Libby with Sanctic and a 2nd with Divination.

That gives you a guaranteed rerolls to hit(useful when every shot needs to count) and the possibility of Forwarning(which means 3++ is a possibility)

The ideal combo would be one libby getting VoD, Gate, and Sanctuary. And the other getting Forewarning and Prescience. With any other powers being a bonus.

The Imperial Fist Librarian I take rolls on the Divination table but for more support for the Centurion squad more than anything else

Im gonna try ten man purifiers with a lib for goi and have 4 psycannons in the squad. Jump em around and lay down 16 st7 ap 4 rending shots on whoever looks at me the wrong way.

Doesn't work. You count as having moved. So only 8 Str7 AP4 rending shots at something within 12" of you.

Well i could do all incinerators. Or keep the psycannons. Still get them in close first turn so they can unleash turn two?

I'm trying to get my paladins to work. Any idea on how best to run a GK army with them?

I think a potential use for paladins is several 5-man units with 2 psycannons and an apothecary, he's cheap enough now that each wound saved (half a paladin) just more than makes his points back. With the nemesis formation you can run a few with a minimal tax, and against small arms fire they are still points per wound more survivable than termies. Granted melta or a demolisher cannon will ruin your day, but with a turn one deepstrike and some dreadknight support I think you'd stand a decent chance, there isn't that much massed S8 AP2 and you've got a decent chance at getting sanctuary. Maybe have your librarians take one roll on divination for prescience for better psycannon fire though. Haven't tried this one yet, but I think it has the most potential if you want to run a lot of pallies.

There's still the full-on draigowing option with stern thrown in for 2++ tanking, but it's a really expensive unit as always (though more mobile and survivable now). In the current push for OBSEC MSU though I think that you'll be severely limited in the objectives fight unless you can pull off some awesome multi-charges. I've tried this, beat tau but that one unit was overkill.

Finally, it looks like a few people are going with a single small "bodyguard" unit of paladins (3-5) to buff someone like draigo or some libbys with FNP and +1 attack and just enough backup to take down most stuff. Unfortunately, the one time I did this the unit mishapped and had to footslog their way from a far corner and didn't contribute much (I had a librarian and telepathy+biomancy tigurius in it, no gate unfortunately).

 jy2 wrote:
I'm trying to get my paladins to work. Any idea on how best to run a GK army with them?

I've had good luck with two units of 5 Pallies with 2 Psycannons and an Apothecary, led by Libbies. Roll sanctic for Sanctuary to help minimize the losses from S8 AP2/1 weapons. Of course taking 2 Dreadknights to distract AP2 fire from the Pallies helps.

Those Pallies are tough as nails with Sanctuary and FNP.

Kyck24 wrote:
Im gonna try ten man purifiers with a lib for goi and have 4 psycannons in the squad. Jump em around and lay down 16 st7 ap 4 rending shots on whoever looks at me the wrong way.

Moreover, cleansing flame is awesome when you can manage to close to several enemy units.
In our apoc battle on Saturday, these guys did a lot of damage.

I have just never had the faith in Paladins since I have seen my Terminators be ravaged by AP2 weaponry and alot of AP2 weaponry tends to be S8+ so I just don't like the prospects of spending all those points and it not paying off which is why I like taking allies and taking the Centurions. To me that T5 makes a huge difference on a 2W model since it is harder to be insta-killed. The only bad part is that they don't have at least a 5++ or FNP. It's a give and take, and my experiences have jaded me I guess.

Cleansing Flame is awesome and I have been mostly using it with my Librarian. I hate it that Purifiers can't deep strike and I don't want to take SW just to get access to easy Drop Pods. I could technically get access to them through my Imperial Fist allies but I feel that putting the Tacticals in there is a better use of resources because I usually send the Drop Pod to go after objectives.

So what about a super survivable Libby?

Precognition + Cuirass of sacrifice = rerollable 2+/5++ w/ FnP, & IWND.

Orks have been having some success with MegaArmour boss w/ lucky stikk to accomplish the same thing except Libby can run, has IWND and a rerollable invul save.

Add sanctuary + forewarning to get 3++ rerollable.

The Cuirass is a bit wasted on a two wound model.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Cuirass is a bit wasted on a two wound model.

Agreed, its best on a Captain or a GM

I personally like thw daemonica on my lib. An extra santic power gives me chances for goi and cleansing flame or vortex of doom. Nasty stuff that is. Used two libs with two purifier squads with flamers today. Each lib got goi and cleansing flame and with the purifiers, lemme tell you the space wolve squads fell quick by the second turn.

Yeah, I agree, if anything the Libby gets better mileage out of the book because you get more of the Sanctic table. Save the Cuirass for a different model.

Quick question. If my lib generates cleansing flame psychic power and is attached to a purifier squad can i still use two cleansing flames for that squad?