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DarthDiggler wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
I'm quite enjoying this battle reports, just shows what an army can do when it focusses on mastering one phase of the game (shooting in your case, if anyone didn't pick up on that).

That said I feel abit meh, towards you getting your ass handed to you by the Nurgle Daemon list, particularly in light of the savage beat-down you handed out, games 1 & 2. It's all about the pairings, and you got handed a bad one.

The Daemon's 5/10 minutes of pre-game rolls seems to irk lots of people, which seems unfair given daemons essentially have no shooting bar the warp storm. I suscept turn time wise daemons are actually quicker than shooting heavy armies, maybe slightly skewed by summoning armies...

Anyways I'm looking forward to reading the rest of the reports, I feel like I want to start a tau army now from reading them :-P

I agree. It's always nice to see a bend over you opponent 6th edition Tau list get bent over in 7th and then the Tau player whining about it. Tau is a list which literally breaks all sorts of core 40k rules and because of that they lose any and all forms of complaining about an opponents army.

Anything productive to post?

In case you haven't noticed, Tau really aren't that powerful of a 7th Edition army and are far far from the worst offenders currently. They are basically a mid upper tier army that have some serious bad matchups. Aside from mine and Spam Adams showing, they really haven't done well in the 7th edition events. At NOVA it was only the Pacific Rim, Triptide with Adamantine Lance, that kept the Tau win percentage up.

Also, please point out where I've was whining to such a massive degree? I'd appreciate if you keep the posts in my thread constructive or at least on topic.

Despite the "nerfings" to Tau, they are still really good. I know that, with the exception of my AV13 necrons, I sill struggle against Tau with a lot of my armies. They just went from super bad-ass to just plain regular bad-ass, which is still a heck of a lot better than many other armies.

BTW, I like the nickname Pacific Rim. Yeah, if you go up against it, just bend over and get ready to take it. HAHAHA.... And the funny thing is, while I can't run a regular Tau army, I actually have the models to run the Pacific Rim.

Yea game 1 was pretty much the same as 5 just in your favor. That poor player lost first turn and any shot of winning before she ever moved a model as well really.

That said, it's just a major symptom of the overall match-up condition 40k faces. Winning one of these events requires some serious luck to get good match ups and first turn over 8 games. 8! games!

You did awesome Zag! Looking forward to the rest of the games, especially against Knights.

Any army that can throw a beating at and mini with the Knight moniker gets my thumbs up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought Pacific Rim was the list Jesse Newton made up while at NOVA that had 3 ImpKnights + Skyblight?

Knights=robots
Nids=Kaiju

jy2 wrote:Despite the "nerfings" to Tau, they are still really good. I know that, with the exception of my AV13 necrons, I sill struggle against Tau with a lot of my armies. They just went from super bad-ass to just plain regular bad-ass, which is still a heck of a lot better than many other armies.

BTW, I like the nickname Pacific Rim. Yeah, if you go up against it, just bend over and get ready to take it. HAHAHA.... And the funny thing is, while I can't run a regular Tau army, I actually have the models to run the Pacific Rim.

They are still very good. The match up well against a variety of good builds, but the list of bad matchups is growing whereas Eldar has continued to outpace the competition and took the edition change better. The lack of Psychics and any tangible way to slow non Witchfire and non Maledictions down is painful.

Red Corsair wrote:Yea game 1 was pretty much the same as 5 just in your favor. That poor player lost first turn and any shot of winning before she ever moved a model as well really.

That said, it's just a major symptom of the overall match-up condition 40k faces. Winning one of these events requires some serious luck to get good match ups and first turn over 8 games. 8! games!

You did awesome Zag! Looking forward to the rest of the games, especially against Knights.

Any army that can throw a beating at and mini with the Knight moniker gets my thumbs up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought Pacific Rim was the list Jesse Newton made up while at NOVA that had 3 ImpKnights + Skyblight?

Knights=robots
Nids=Kaiju

I didn't see a Skyblight + Knights build and it's very possible Jesse called that build Pacific Rim. But, there was quite a bit of referring to Niel's, Justin's and Jesse's Teiptide + Adamantine Lance as Pacific Rim.

Actually, my game 5 was way more Lopsided than game 1.

I agree, the severity if Matchups has definitely gotten more pronounced. I kind of pine for the good old days where builds in General were less extreme, but I was also much less competitive and the Internet did not rule supreme. But we've seen problems in every edition. There is just too much reward and too little risk for most players to play an extreme build.

I matched up well against Knights all tournament, though I didn't draw any Adamantine Lances. In my next game you'll see me against two IKs, and you'll see a pretty epic dice fail, but even so I didn't have much trouble dropping 1 of the 2 turn 2 and realistically should have dropped both. Funny enough, all Tournament I never rolled an Explodes result against an Imperial Knight with Melta despite ~16 shots most of which were BS5, I HP Stripped all of them.

 Zagman wrote:

jy2 wrote:Despite the "nerfings" to Tau, they are still really good. I know that, with the exception of my AV13 necrons, I sill struggle against Tau with a lot of my armies. They just went from super bad-ass to just plain regular bad-ass, which is still a heck of a lot better than many other armies.

BTW, I like the nickname Pacific Rim. Yeah, if you go up against it, just bend over and get ready to take it. HAHAHA.... And the funny thing is, while I can't run a regular Tau army, I actually have the models to run the Pacific Rim.

They are still very good. The match up well against a variety of good builds, but the list of bad matchups is growing whereas Eldar has continued to outpace the competition and took the edition change better. The lack of Psychics and any tangible way to slow non Witchfire and non Maledictions down is painful.

Red Corsair wrote:Yea game 1 was pretty much the same as 5 just in your favor. That poor player lost first turn and any shot of winning before she ever moved a model as well really.

That said, it's just a major symptom of the overall match-up condition 40k faces. Winning one of these events requires some serious luck to get good match ups and first turn over 8 games. 8! games!

You did awesome Zag! Looking forward to the rest of the games, especially against Knights.

Any army that can throw a beating at and mini with the Knight moniker gets my thumbs up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought Pacific Rim was the list Jesse Newton made up while at NOVA that had 3 ImpKnights + Skyblight?

Knights=robots
Nids=Kaiju

I didn't see a Skyblight + Knights build and it's very possible Jesse called that build Pacific Rim. But, there was quite a bit of referring to Niel's, Justin's and Jesse's Teiptide + Adamantine Lance as Pacific Rim.

Actually, my game 5 was way more Lopsided than game 1.

I agree, the severity if Matchups has definitely gotten more pronounced. I kind of pine for the good old days where builds in General were less extreme, but I was also much less competitive and the Internet did not rule supreme. But we've seen problems in every edition. There is just too much reward and too little risk for most players to play an extreme build.

I matched up well against Knights all tournament, though I didn't draw any Adamantine Lances. In my next game you'll see me against two IKs, and you'll see a pretty epic dice fail, but even so I didn't have much trouble dropping 1 of the 2 turn 2 and realistically should have dropped both. Funny enough, all Tournament I never rolled an Explodes result against an Imperial Knight with Melta despite ~16 shots most of which were BS5, I HP Stripped all of them.

Pacific Rim was what I was calling it all weekend. Jesse made up an adlance/nid army afterwards and wanted to call it Pacific Rim, and call the knights/tides Rock'em Sock'em Robots. I dont mind either one, but we put it to a community vote on our team SG videos facebook page (shameless plugs are shameless) as to what the knight/tide list should be called. Also I borrowed this army last minute and now am getting it commissioned, so expect to see it at east coast gts as well as probably LVO next year. Jim you know you want to fight this and regain your honor vs me after the necrons got shot up by ovesa and friends.

Zag seriously good job and grats on having the highest tau placing in the tournament, and with a real tau army not riptides riding around on imperial knights .

thanatos67 wrote:


Pacific Rim was what I was calling it all weekend. Jesse made up an adlance/nid army afterwards and wanted to call it Pacific Rim, and call the knights/tides Rock'em Sock'em Robots. I dont mind either one, but we put it to a community vote on our team SG videos facebook page (shameless plugs are shameless) as to what the knight/tide list should be called. Also I borrowed this army last minute and now am getting it commissioned, so expect to see it at east coast gts as well as probably LVO next year. Jim you know you want to fight this and regain your honor vs me after the necrons got shot up by ovesa and friends.

Zag seriously good job and grats on having the highest tau placing in the tournament, and with a real tau army not riptides riding around on imperial knights .

Thanks, I just LOLed to Riptides riding around on Imperial Knights!

Congrats yourself. Second to One is extremely impressive, especially after your showing last year.




Anyway, game 6 posted.


And Game 7 is posted.

 Zagman wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:


Pacific Rim was what I was calling it all weekend. Jesse made up an adlance/nid army afterwards and wanted to call it Pacific Rim, and call the knights/tides Rock'em Sock'em Robots. I dont mind either one, but we put it to a community vote on our team SG videos facebook page (shameless plugs are shameless) as to what the knight/tide list should be called. Also I borrowed this army last minute and now am getting it commissioned, so expect to see it at east coast gts as well as probably LVO next year. Jim you know you want to fight this and regain your honor vs me after the necrons got shot up by ovesa and friends.

Zag seriously good job and grats on having the highest tau placing in the tournament, and with a real tau army not riptides riding around on imperial knights .

Thanks, I just LOLed to Riptides riding around on Imperial Knights!

Congrats yourself. Second to 1 is extremely impressive, especially after your showing last year.




Anyway, game 6 posted.


And Game 7 is posted.

Zagman! I have a question I sent you as a PM. Could you please check it out?

Game 8 Complete. Hope you guys enjoyed!


Edit: PM Responded.

Nice job! Great report. What was your opinion of the NoVa mission format vs others (LVO, Adepticon or others)?

Also hate to be that guy but in game 8 you mention going to ground to get 2+ cover vs wraithknight shooting. Monstrous Creatures are banned from going to ground in 7ed (riptides used to be able to in 6ed because they weren't fearless, now its just a flat rule that MCs can't GtG). Doesn't sound like you went to ground, so just a FYI for the future.

 winterman wrote:
Nice job! Great report. What was your opinion of the NoVa mission format vs others (LVO, Adepticon or others)?

Also hate to be that guy but in game 8 you mention going to ground to get 2+ cover vs wraithknight shooting. Monstrous Creatures are banned from going to ground in 7ed (riptides used to be able to in 6ed because they weren't fearless, now its just a flat rule that MCs can't GtG). Doesn't sound like you went to ground, so just a FYI for the future.

Thanks. I feel the NOVA missions have gotten too complicated and are no longer fitting for 7th edition. They definitely helped Daemon Summoning armies as did the Terrain. Overall, I like what they are trying to do, but feel that they aren't quite right for 7th. I like the BAO missions, though I'd like beginning of round scoring like NOVA better as it always gives your opponent a chance to react. I talked to Reece about it, and he assures me ToF still gives 1st turn an advantage despite that scoring method, but I still like the NOVA beginning of turn better. KP only missions probably need to go the way of the Dodo with a KP score modification being present in every mission like ETC. Gonyo spoke highly of the scoring method and I liked everything I hear.


Thanks for pointing out that a MC can't GtG anymore. I did have one Riptide go to ground to survive a wound from the Wratihknight, it wasn't distort and I failed the Cover save anyway, but made the FNP. So in the end it only robbed me of firepower, but it is great to know. Thanks!

Great reports and well done placing so highly with the now unfashionable Tau.

djn wrote:
Great reports and well done placing so highly with the now unfashionable Tau.

Thanks. There were a handful of Tau in Bracket 2, not including the Pacific Rim builds. But pure Tau are suffering in the current Meta. At least they are still a pretty good counter to Eldar and Crons and even Imperial Knights.

Any tweaks to the list after seeing how the meta is shaking out?

 winterman wrote:
Any tweaks to the list after seeing how the meta is shaking out?

Hmm, tough question. I really missed having Stims on my IA Riptide, and strongly considered dropping a Solo Suit for it. In my test games it proved to be very tempting, after NOVA I didn't have issues with the IA giving up First Blood or dieting too quickly.

I'd probably make that switch, gaining Stims as the Solo Suits were quite squishy and weren't as critical for securing objective as I hoped.

Otherwise, I am pretty happy with the list, it did exactly what I expected it to. I didn't expect so many Daemon opponents and don't really see any easy modifications that would have really made a difference without costing me elsewhere.

Excellent showing overall ! Puretide Tau is still quite potent. FE is definitely the way to go.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Excellent showing overall ! Puretide Tau is still quite potent. FE is definitely the way to go.

Thanks, I was quite happy with the experience overall.

I got a kick out of when people asked how I was doing, looked surprised when I said I made top bracket, looked even more surprised when I said I was playing Tau, and even more surprised yet when I said I was fielding no Broadsides or FBSC.

I feel the list was well balanced and a TMC(Take Most Comers) list that matched up pretty well in the Meta.

What was the ruling on O'Vesa joining units at Nova? He seems to me to be a better alternative to protecting your mini crisis deathstar than the squishy buff commander.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What was the ruling on O'Vesa joining units at Nova? He seems to me to be a better alternative to protecting your mini crisis deathstar than the squishy buff commander.

O'Vesa can join a unit, but that unit cannot include an IC.

And no, not in the slightest. O'Vesa doesn't bring Twinlinking, a Tank/Monster Hunter, or Ignores cover to the table, so he's actually a terrible replacement for a BuffCommander, and I'd have to take Farsight. And FYI, with a 2+/4++/5+++ and 4 Wounds a BuffCommander is actually more resilient against some forms of firepower as they are both brought down to T4 majority Toughness.

I originally had planned a BuffCommander, O'Vesa, Tripple MP a Crisis unit that would have put out more firepower than my current unit and been majority T6, but both Nova and BAO rules it's a no go.

You did great, Lee! It was a pleasure hanging out with you at nova, dude.

Congrats on a job very well done indeed! Looks like Tau's still got what it takes if you know what you're doing.

 Reecius wrote:
You did great, Lee! It was a pleasure hanging out with you at nova, dude.

You as well, congrats on doing pretty well yourselves as a team! Definitely was a blast, you guys were hilarious. Cheese and Rice..... LOL!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
Congrats on a job very well done indeed! Looks like Tau's still got what it takes if you know what you're doing.

Yep, they've still got some mileage in them and best part is some people seem to be forgetting all of their tricks. Short memories!

Thanks for a great battle report. Glad to see Tau win some games.

Just looked at the final results and see the top 5 are Eldar. Wow. I was very bummed to see so many Daemon summoning armies. That makes it looks like some of the fears about 7th were well founded.

Glad to hear your did so well. For the Greater Good!

Thanks,
Duncan

 vadersson wrote:
Thanks for a great battle report. Glad to see Tau win some games.

Just looked at the final results and see the top 5 are Eldar. Wow. I was very bummed to see so many Daemon summoning armies. That makes it looks like some of the fears about 7th were well founded.

Glad to hear your did so well. For the Greater Good!

Thanks,
Duncan

Thanks, glad you enjoyed them. There were definitely quite a few Eldar in the top Bracket as well as Daemon Summoning. Eldar because well Eldar are still awesome. Maybe not to the degree they were in 6th, but they are still top dog. Daemon Summoning was more prevalent at NOVA because NOVA's missions and their heavy use of LoS blocking terrain favored them and helped them to be more successful. Also, NOVA's ruling on Psykers which IMO is the best, does help them further as well as it allows them take take multiple attempts in multple Psykers in a unit have the power.

 Zagman wrote:

 winterman wrote:
Any tweaks to the list after seeing how the meta is shaking out?

Hmm, tough question. I really missed having Stims on my IA Riptide, and strongly considered dropping a Solo Suit for it. In my test games it proved to be very tempting, after NOVA I didn't have issues with the IA giving up First Blood or dieting too quickly.

I'd probably make that switch, gaining Stims as the Solo Suits were quite squishy and weren't as critical for securing objective as I hoped.

Otherwise, I am pretty happy with the list, it did exactly what I expected it to. I didn't expect so many Daemon opponents and don't really see any easy modifications that would have really made a difference without costing me elsewhere.

Getting those stims on the 3rd riptide does make sense. Also that one game where you had all those targeted psychic powers hit your deathstar made me think of the Arthas Moloch relic. But what is it, 35 points? Not sure its worth it in most games but man it woulda been nice to have in that game. Psychic shriek is so common locally its on my mind for the tau percolating in the back of my head (thanks to you and your batrep by the by, thinking of starting tau).

Zagman wrote:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
What was the ruling on O'Vesa joining units at Nova? He seems to me to be a better alternative to protecting your mini crisis deathstar than the squishy buff commander.

O'Vesa can join a unit, but that unit cannot include an IC.

And no, not in the slightest. O'Vesa doesn't bring Twinlinking, a Tank/Monster Hunter, or Ignores cover to the table, so he's actually a terrible replacement for a BuffCommander, and I'd have to take Farsight. And FYI, with a 2+/4++/5+++ and 4 Wounds a BuffCommander is actually more resilient against some forms of firepower as they are both brought down to T4 majority Toughness.

I originally had planned a BuffCommander, O'Vesa, Tripple MP a Crisis unit that would have put out more firepower than my current unit and been majority T6, but both Nova and BAO rules it's a no go.

I usually run O'Vesa and a Buff Bodyguard (Farsight Enclave Bodyguard teams can take Signature Systems from the Tau Codex) with attached ICs, but the ruling here is that ICs can join units with O'vesa. I think the BAO and NOVA rulings are kind of unfairly penalising Tau, and it's not even that strong a build. I suppose your build is the only other alternative. I would never run O'vesa in a majority T4 unit, doesn't make much sense.

Reecius wrote:You did great, Lee! It was a pleasure hanging out with you at nova, dude.

Any reflections on the Adamantine Lance formation and the poor showing of triple Knight armies in general, Reecius?

vadersson wrote:Thanks for a great battle report. Glad to see Tau win some games.

Just looked at the final results and see the top 5 are Eldar. Wow. I was very bummed to see so many Daemon summoning armies. That makes it looks like some of the fears about 7th were well founded.

Glad to hear your did so well. For the Greater Good!

Thanks,
Duncan

Top 5 are Eldar, Eldar/Dark Eldar, Chaos Daemons/ Knights, Necrons and Tau. Top Ten have four more Eldar armies and one CSM, is that what you were looking at?

There are no pure Daemonfarms in the top 50 and the no. 3 Daemon list is more of a Screamerstar/Knightrush list. There are 4 Daemon lists that made top 20, 3 of which are FMC-spam. Daemon summoning is incidental to the list, not integral. What fears about 7th are founded again? Please don't be a fearmonger.

Getting those stims on the 3rd riptide does make sense. Also that one game where you had all those targeted psychic powers hit your deathstar made me think of the Arthas Moloch relic. But what is it, 35 points? Not sure its worth it in most games but man it woulda been nice to have in that game. Psychic shriek is so common locally its on my mind for the tau percolating in the back of my head (thanks to you and your batrep by the by, thinking of starting tau).

Talisman used to be too good but now it's kind of pointless, since Tau don't generate enough warp-charge to make it useful (unless you bring allies who do, but the only really good allies for Tau are Knights.)

The prevalence of Eldar is mostly due to the lack of good Tau players since FE is pretty much the best hard counter to any Wave Serpent based build, and the nerfing of O'vesa stopping him from forming the Tau deathstar = lack of Tau players.

winterman wrote:
Getting those stims on the 3rd riptide does make sense. Also that one game where you had all those targeted psychic powers hit your deathstar made me think of the Arthas Moloch relic. But what is it, 35 points? Not sure its worth it in most games but man it woulda been nice to have in that game. Psychic shriek is so common locally its on my mind for the tau percolating in the back of my head (thanks to you and your batrep by the by, thinking of starting tau).

Not really, Tau have no access to increase the number of Dice they have access to and generally speaking its Blessing that are the real issue, not Witchfires and Maledictions. Over the course of the entire tournament, I would have stopped zero powers I didn't stop. I would have gotten exactly zero benefit out of the Talisman.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I usually run O'Vesa and a Buff Bodyguard (Farsight Enclave Bodyguard teams can take Signature Systems from the Tau Codex) with attached ICs, but the ruling here is that ICs can join units with O'vesa. I think the BAO and NOVA rulings are kind of unfairly penalising Tau, and it's not even that strong a build. I suppose your build is the only other alternative. I would never run O'vesa in a majority T4 unit, doesn't make much sense.


Any reflections on the Adamantine Lance formation and the poor showing of triple Knight armies in general, Reecius?


Top 5 are Eldar, Eldar/Dark Eldar, Chaos Daemons/ Knights, Necrons and Tau. Top Ten have four more Eldar armies and one CSM, is that what you were looking at?

There are no pure Daemonfarms in the top 50 and the no. 3 Daemon list is more of a Screamerstar/Knightrush list. There are 4 Daemon lists that made top 20, 3 of which are FMC-spam. Daemon summoning is incidental to the list, not integral. What fears about 7th are founded again? Please don't be a fearmonger.

Getting those stims on the 3rd riptide does make sense. Also that one game where you had all those targeted psychic powers hit your deathstar made me think of the Arthas Moloch relic. But what is it, 35 points? Not sure its worth it in most games but man it woulda been nice to have in that game. Psychic shriek is so common locally its on my mind for the tau percolating in the back of my head (thanks to you and your batrep by the by, thinking of starting tau).

Talisman used to be too good but now it's kind of pointless, since Tau don't generate enough warp-charge to make it useful (unless you bring allies who do, but the only really good allies for Tau are Knights.)

The prevalence of Eldar is mostly due to the lack of good Tau players since FE is pretty much the best hard counter to any Wave Serpent based build, and the nerfing of O'vesa stopping him from forming the Tau deathstar = lack of Tau players.

The other bodyguards aren't worth it, they are horribly points inefficient, actually, that is a terrible use for O'Vesa even if it is ruled as legal. Also, they are ICs. BAO and NOVA ruled that joining O'Vesa last to a unit of ICs was not a loophole around it as since it all happens at the same time they are mutually exclusive. Its not an unfair ruling, and joining O'Vesa last is a clear tenuous loophole around RAW when RAI is clear.

Actually, across the entire tournament the Adamamantine lance was extremely powerful and the armies running it has a very good win percentage. It was extremely strong. I'm not sure where you are getting the Lance had a poor shoing at NOVA, quite the opposite was true. Were you there?

Pure Daemon Factory isn't that good, but there was a much greater prevalence of Daemon Summoning in the top bracket than Eldar. At almost every table you could readily see Summoned Daemons and in many cases the ability to cheaply and effectively summon additional scoring units and points of models broke scenarios. Even the GK/SM player was using Tigerious to Summon Daemons. I believe some of the Eldar were as well. When you walked the top tables you felt as if there was more Daemons than Eldar when you saw Daemons on basically every table. All of the Daemon and CSM players were. That fear of the ability to summon almost "free" points and its ability to negatively impact the game was very real.

For instance the Screamerstar Knight Rush list summoned SEVEN units in the game against me, and we called it in four turns. Seven units, that is a game breaking amount with relatively small investment into it. The FMC lists were summoning lots of Daemons in many of their games. What you are calling incidental to the lists, was integral to many of their wins. Again, were you actually at NOVA, or are you talking to talk?

The CSM/Daemons Rush list I ran into summoned at least four units and we didn't get to play a full game. Even Haley's FMCs were summoning though we called the game before we got that far.

The simple truth, summoning free units when it comes with almost no risk and no additional investment is an inherent problem especially when they are scoring.

And the reason we didn't see any true Daemon Factories is becasues the army takes too damned long to play and many just didn't bring them. The best armies aren't going to be Full Daemon Factories, but those that for a relatively small investment can do almost the same level of Summoning as a true Daemon Factory.

Should probably be able to realize everything isn't a personal attack against you. Only counter you have is were you there, and most of the time there asking a question to gain knowledge themselves

Edited by RiTides

strickland05 wrote:
You really are a condescending dick eh? Should probably be able to realize everything isn't a personal attack against you. Only counter you have is were you there, and most of the time there asking a question to gain knowledge themselves

Or I was correcting something that was spoken that was blatantly incorrect. To my knowledge he wasn't there, and his comments clearly indicated that.

I was actually trying to enlighten him without being a condescending dick as his comments were obviously misinformed and I'm rewarded by responses from the likes of you.

You are welcome to stop posting in this thread. I'm not going to engage you in conversation if you have nothing constructive or on topic to add. See e Dakka posting rules if you are unsure.

The other bodyguards aren't worth it, they are horribly points inefficient, actually, that is a terrible use for O'Vesa even if it is ruled as legal. Also, they are ICs. BAO and NOVA ruled that joining O'Vesa last to a unit of ICs was not a loophole around it as since it all happens at the same time they are mutually exclusive. Its not an unfair ruling, and joining O'Vesa last is a clear tenuous loophole around RAW when RAI is clear.

I'm not referring to the named bodyguards, I'm talking about a Crisis Bodyguard Team (max size 2, 32pts each) unlocked by taking a Tau Commander in FE. Of the named bodyguards, O'blotai the Broadside IC is actually very good value as getting Velocity+TL HYMP + 2 Missile drones+Seeker on an IC platform for 128 points isn't too bad, considering the same cost on a Tau commander is 135 without drones or TL..

How is it a terrible use to put O'vesa in to protect your buffsuit and other MP suits? You also get sworn protector for auto-pass look out sir, which is great. It's a flexible mini-deathstar which is hard to kill and slaughters FMC and Wave Serpents without hesitation, and is much better at weathering fire considering your tank isn't also your buffbot (not to mention adding the firepower of O'vesa). A ruling that directly targets nerfing the O'vesa star I'd say is unfair, the RAI is unclear because while joining an MC is verboten, O'vesa as an IC joining other ICs isn't. It's a ruling specifically punishing a single build which really isn't all that powerful and has resultedly pushed Tau out of top tier as a competitive army.

Actually, across the entire tournament the Adamamantine lance was extremely powerful and the armies running it has a very good win percentage. It was extremely strong. I'm not sure where you are getting the Lance had a poor shoing at NOVA, quite the opposite was true. Were you there?

The results themselves don't support this, there aren't any 3 Knight armies in the top 16 and the only one in the top 20 is piloted by Justin Cook. I think it doesn't have the tactical flexibility needed for the NOVA format. Do I have to be physically present to draw conclusions from the results?

Pure Daemon Factory isn't that good, but there was a much greater prevalence of Daemon Summoning in the top bracket than Eldar. At almost every table you could readily see Summoned Daemons and in many cases the ability to cheaply and effectively summon additional scoring units and points of models broke scenarios. Even the GK/SM player was using Tigerious to Summon Daemons. I believe some of the Eldar were as well. When you walked the top tables you felt as if there was more Daemons than Eldar when you saw Daemons on basically every table. All of the Daemon and CSM players were. That fear of the ability to summon almost "free" points and its ability to negatively impact the game was very real.

For instance the Screamerstar Knight Rush list summoned SEVEN units in the game against me, and we called it in four turns. Seven units, that is a game breaking amount with relatively small investment into it. The FMC lists were summoning lots of Daemons in many of their games. What you are calling incidental to the lists, was integral to many of their wins. Again, were you actually at NOVA, or are you talking to talk?

Again, the results don't bear this out: top 10 lists have only one summoning list, and it's one where summoning is incidental since they already have the facepunch of Knights/Grinders. Sure the Eldar summoned Daemons incidentally, but their lists are already strong without the additional units. Summoning is generally unreliable, especially getting Incursion; it's just inordinately strong against Tau since you generally don't have the firepower to deal with the additional units and have no dice to throw to DTW. If summoning was as effective as you purport it to be, we should be seeing the top lists dominated by summoning, not represented by 1 list in the top ten and 4 in the top 20. Not to mention TK won without summoning a single daemon...

No doubt the player got a lucky break with his psychic powers in your game, but you also failed to kill any of his Psykers when you had the chance to. It's simply the snowball effect of summoning, or early kills in 40k in general. I'm discussing based on battle report analysis (and not just your own), no need to get in a huff.

The CSM/Daemons Rush list I ran into summoned at least four units and we didn't get to play a full game. Even Haley's FMCs were summoning though we called the game before we got that far.

The simple truth, summoning free units when it comes with almost no risk and no additional investment is an inherent problem especially when they are scoring.

And the reason we didn't see any true Daemon Factories is becasues the army takes too damned long to play and many just didn't bring them. The best armies aren't going to be Full Daemon Factories, but those that for a relatively small investment can do almost the same level of Summoning as a true Daemon Factory.

Untrue, you can summon far more with a dedicated summoning list but at the cost of offence and effectiveness. The top Daemon lists are already strong on their own merits and summoning is just another aspect which helps them, but not inordinately so.

And no, I don't have to be at Nova to draw that conclusion.

Oh don't worry I'll post here, and we both know whAt you were doing, anyways, on another topic, and yes I apologize if I was incorrect. I usually run a list that is similar to yours, al be it a bit less missile suits, most of my Death Star shooting units are fusion and plasma, but I feel like missile pods add more versatility, due to range, non reliance on deep striker reserve rolls and such. Did you find that eight bs 5 essentially twin linked marker drones was to much, were you wasting hits? And also what would your thoughts be on adding farsight instead of the missile commander and using his bodyguard I understand that it would probably change the mechanic of your list, but did you find you would benifit from more suits, or less marker drones?