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 Acardia wrote:


result 11 on the Reign of Chaos. Says generate spell when placed, however it skips it for 12 on new horror unit. most events say the fact that 11 allows it means 12 allows it as well.

See if that's the case, I'd assume that this any of the Lore of Undeath spells that summon Wizards (Kadorak), cause you to Generate spells when placed, considering it doesn't say don't generate spells and there is now a precedent for summoned Wizards generating spells.

 TheMind wrote:
I'd assume that this any of the Lore of Undeath spells that summon Wizards (Kadorak), cause you to Generate spells when placed, considering it doesn't say don't generate spells

This should probably go in another thread, but, to be clear, it would indeed be an assumption. There aren't any clear rules to back it up, and "it doesn't say don't" is the weakest argument available.
Not that I'd stop you from summoning a Wizard. Then again, I'd probably ask you not to field Nagash.

Warpsolution wrote:

 TheMind wrote:
I'd assume that this any of the Lore of Undeath spells that summon Wizards (Kadorak), cause you to Generate spells when placed, considering it doesn't say don't generate spells

This should probably go in another thread, but, to be clear, it would indeed be an assumption. There aren't any clear rules to back it up, and "it doesn't say don't" is the weakest argument available.
Not that I'd stop you from summoning a Wizard. Then again, I'd probably ask you not to field Nagash.

You'd be correct if there wasn't a precedent for them generating spells when summoned. Since there is a precedent for them generating spells when summoned, where it says specifically that you do, and the specific wording on Kandorak doesn't say you don't generate spells.
Considering
A) A previous precedent
and
B) A lack of specific notation saying not to.

I'm going to go with they generate spells on entry until someone with judging experience or an FAQ tells me not to.

To be perfectly honest, it's not Nagash that's broken, it's Lore of Undeath, Nagash just turns it up to 11.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Stumbled across this idea last night.
Night Goblins. Lore of Undead.

The magic mushrooms give you a free D6 casting power with every spell. With the little waaaagh, you have no way to take advantage of that, as the signature spell is a very situational augment. But now that goblins get a signature spell that's useful, having 3 or 4 night goblins cracking out Ryze to bring up some throw-away fanatic sling shots is awesome.
Might even be good enough try out the catchweb shrine.

Yep. It's ridiculous. You basically spam war machines, as usual, but can now add even MORE chaff. Because NG did not already have awesome chaff. Wait.

I'm trying to figure out why Neferata is as weak as she is, in the various books about her she is commonly described as the most powerful Vampire with only Abhorash (and I guess now Mannfred) having a hope of competing against her

Neferata nearly gets killed a few times in the books - I think they got it right in many respects - she is not a master of magic - she knows loads of useful tricks, and is a master at shape-shifting but pure necromancy is not her thing - she has people to do that for her - she is a little lazy that way

She is truly lethal with a blade thanks to Abhorash- so again they got her WS about right but she should have a Quicksilver reflexes ward save - also disappointed they rewrote Silver Pinnacle background again especially since josh Reynolds is obviously heavily involved with the project - same with her handmaidens - Namia is her favourite - has been since the very beginning

Still the new disposable handmaidens were quite fun - pity no new models for them to match the lovely artwork in the books...................still maybe they are coming!

 TheMind wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 TheMind wrote:
I'd assume that this any of the Lore of Undeath spells that summon Wizards (Kadorak), cause you to Generate spells when placed, considering it doesn't say don't generate spells

This should probably go in another thread, but, to be clear, it would indeed be an assumption. There aren't any clear rules to back it up, and "it doesn't say don't" is the weakest argument available.
Not that I'd stop you from summoning a Wizard. Then again, I'd probably ask you not to field Nagash.

You'd be correct if there wasn't a precedent for them generating spells when summoned. Since there is a precedent for them generating spells when summoned, where it says specifically that you do, and the specific wording on Kandorak doesn't say you don't generate spells.
Considering
A) A previous precedent
and
B) A lack of specific notation saying not to.

I'm going to go with they generate spells on entry until someone with judging experience or an FAQ tells me not to.

To be perfectly honest, it's not Nagash that's broken, it's Lore of Undeath, Nagash just turns it up to 11.

It's a permissive rules set....it tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't. Further you are using a precedent where the Army book specifically tells you to generate the spells so that is hardly a precedent to use for a book that doesn't tell you to. In addition, Let's look further...

The section (pg142 DEPLOYMENT) in reference to deploying wizards finishes with "remember to generate their spells, as described in the Reference section." Okay...so flip flip flip pg 162 "The Lores of Magic". Here we see "When you choose your army, you should have selected which Lore of Magic each of your Wizards is going to use (if you haven't, shame on you. Go back, choose now and remember to do it properly for your next game)."

Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

 quickfuze wrote:


Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

That is also a book written before this was a possibility isn't it? Seems like a victim of the lack of thorough playtesting and not producing FAQs in a timely manner to me.

 Eldarain wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:


Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

That is also a book written before this was a possibility isn't it? Seems like a victim of the lack of thorough playtesting and not producing FAQs in a timely manner to me.

Actually no... The "11" result in the demons army book states that if you choose a Herald of Tzeentch to deploy onto the battlefield due to possession, to generate his spells as normal.

A precedent that GW was aware that a caster could end up on the battlefield post game start, and rules that specifically address that situation for that army. This book (Nagash) is written well after that, and that verbiage does not appear. So, was it an error or oversight on their part to exclude it? SURELY NOT...GW would never...I can't even finish that sentence. Maybe it was an oversight, but RAW I don't think we have the supporting rules to allow it.

Until an FAQ appears for it, and how I'm gonna play it for the tournament I organize, I'd play it where you choose which lore any potential wizards you could summon prior to the game.

So basically say, "I have the ability to summon Arkhan, and he will use Lore of Death" etc.

 quickfuze wrote:

Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

At the time of deployment, is the wizard you are going to summon on turn 4 in your army?
Harbinger gets you summon a hero worth 65 points. That could be a nercomancer. Before the game, I could say, I plan on summoning 6 necromancers who will cast from lore of vampire; let me roll their spells now. Then when I cast Harbinger, I'm going to choose which necormancer I get?
No, the less advantageous way to play it is to summon the character, choose the lore, place him on the table and roll up the spells. You've committed to his location before you know what he's got.

 Eldarain wrote:
The most interesting thing is that they use a combined profile. I hope that becomes the new approach as extending your defenses to your mount (in a sense) would make monster lords more viable.

It just makes things simpler. Plus, as noted, it makes "dude on dragon" a damn sight more scary as the hero benefits from the dragons toughness and wounds and the dragon gets the hero's initiative and armour.

Just working off a combined profile and saying "use the best T, S, WS, esc of the two" makes everything easier. It even leaves open narrative space for sniper weapons to hit the hero's toughness, not the monsters.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

At the time of deployment, is the wizard you are going to summon on turn 4 in your army?
Harbinger gets you summon a hero worth 65 points. That could be a nercomancer. Before the game, I could say, I plan on summoning 6 necromancers who will cast from lore of vampire; let me roll their spells now. Then when I cast Harbinger, I'm going to choose which necormancer I get?
No, the less advantageous way to play it is to summon the character, choose the lore, place him on the table and roll up the spells. You've committed to his location before you know what he's got.

Less advantageous? I would call the first one illegal....I can say anything I want before the game, but unless I spend points on a unit and its in my starting army, it is not part of my army during "Army Selection" which I have already shown that the rules say is when spells are generated. RAW you cant select a Magic Lore after the game has started and therefore cannot generate spells. I believe the only exception to this would be where a character has only one lore and cannot choose. Then you could argue the spell generation occurs on deployment (even though I still disagree that this means when you deploy him on the board and meant deployment before first turn).

 quickfuze wrote:


It's a permissive rules set....it tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't. Further you are using a precedent where the Army book specifically tells you to generate the spells so that is hardly a precedent to use for a book that doesn't tell you to. In addition, Let's look further...

The section (pg142 DEPLOYMENT) in reference to deploying wizards finishes with "remember to generate their spells, as described in the Reference section." Okay...so flip flip flip pg 162 "The Lores of Magic". Here we see "When you choose your army, you should have selected which Lore of Magic each of your Wizards is going to use (if you haven't, shame on you. Go back, choose now and remember to do it properly for your next game)."

Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

The "Properly" is for wizards in your army. Summoned wizards aren't using any of the rules for deployment.
Why are you using the deployment rules when you are not told to?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:


It's a permissive rules set....it tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't. Further you are using a precedent where the Army book specifically tells you to generate the spells so that is hardly a precedent to use for a book that doesn't tell you to. In addition, Let's look further...

The section (pg142 DEPLOYMENT) in reference to deploying wizards finishes with "remember to generate their spells, as described in the Reference section." Okay...so flip flip flip pg 162 "The Lores of Magic". Here we see "When you choose your army, you should have selected which Lore of Magic each of your Wizards is going to use (if you haven't, shame on you. Go back, choose now and remember to do it properly for your next game)."

Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

The "Properly" is for wizards in your army. Summoned wizards aren't using any of the rules for deployment.
Why are you using the deployment rules when you are not told to?

Why are people trying to generate spells when they are not told to?

 quickfuze wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:


It's a permissive rules set....it tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't. Further you are using a precedent where the Army book specifically tells you to generate the spells so that is hardly a precedent to use for a book that doesn't tell you to. In addition, Let's look further...

The section (pg142 DEPLOYMENT) in reference to deploying wizards finishes with "remember to generate their spells, as described in the Reference section." Okay...so flip flip flip pg 162 "The Lores of Magic". Here we see "When you choose your army, you should have selected which Lore of Magic each of your Wizards is going to use (if you haven't, shame on you. Go back, choose now and remember to do it properly for your next game)."

Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

The "Properly" is for wizards in your army. Summoned wizards aren't using any of the rules for deployment.
Why are you using the deployment rules when you are not told to?

Why are people trying to generate spells when they are not told to?

Because when you summon other things with the spell you can choose unit upgrades and stuff? I mean, technically that only happens during Army construction. On top of that there is a precedent for summoned wizards rolling for spells when put on the board, see Reign of Chaos result 11. So, until there's an FAQ, I'll be rolling for my spells when they hit the board.

 TheMind wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:


It's a permissive rules set....it tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't. Further you are using a precedent where the Army book specifically tells you to generate the spells so that is hardly a precedent to use for a book that doesn't tell you to. In addition, Let's look further...

The section (pg142 DEPLOYMENT) in reference to deploying wizards finishes with "remember to generate their spells, as described in the Reference section." Okay...so flip flip flip pg 162 "The Lores of Magic". Here we see "When you choose your army, you should have selected which Lore of Magic each of your Wizards is going to use (if you haven't, shame on you. Go back, choose now and remember to do it properly for your next game)."

Okay so clearly here we see that "properly" is to select the Lores for each wizard in your army during Army selection. So my question is then....how are you choosing a lore for a wizard that does not exist in your army at the time of army selection? As lore selection occurs prior to spell generation....

The "Properly" is for wizards in your army. Summoned wizards aren't using any of the rules for deployment.
Why are you using the deployment rules when you are not told to?

Why are people trying to generate spells when they are not told to?

Because when you summon other things with the spell you can choose unit upgrades and stuff? I mean, technically that only happens during Army construction. On top of that there is a precedent for summoned wizards rolling for spells when put on the board, see Reign of Chaos result 11. So, until there's an FAQ, I'll be rolling for my spells when they hit the board.

Neither of these applies to this...the "11" result specifically tells you to generate spells.....nothing in Nagash tells you to do this (remember, permissive rule set). Also, I dont have my book in front of me, but I believe that the lore of undeath also states that you have the option to purchase commands and upgrades. Again the book tells you can. There is absolutely no precedent that exists for this situation, so please stop bringing up the Demon book....its not the same.

 TheMind wrote:

TanKoL wrote:
Do we even have a precedent for summoning Wizards? I'd wait for the FAQ on that one.

Ask lizardmen or high elves about that. We're IIRC 6+ months without a new FAQ on anything.

the book says that you can purchase every upgrade listed on the army book untli the point limits