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 Melissia wrote:
The women really haven't gotten "widespread coverage" outside of feminist circles. A lot of my fellow gamers apppear to want to sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen so that they can feel better about the fake "gamergate" movement. Similarly, the thirteen year old has gotten a ton of attention for it from the "opposite" crowd-- however, they were mostly just being used as ammunition by 4channers and redditers such as in the link you gave, rather than people actually caring about it.

Mentions in the major gaming publications and even Forbes is widespread. Far more widespread than a thread on /b/, which is all the kid got, and that not even from people who pretend to care deeply about online harassment and threats of violence - if only when it affects someone whose views they happen to agree with.

Centrism for centrism's sake is not the same as wisdom.

If you think I'm a centrist for any sake, let alone its own, you've never read a thing I've said here.

And it's not centrist to point out there are despicable people on all sides of this issue. It's pretty blindly ignorant to pretend they're only on one side or the other, though.

I disapprove of those death threats. But I freely and unashamedly admit that I am far more concerned with the attempts to use threats to silence women who speak up due to the history of misogynists using violence against women whom say things they do not like, just like people have used violence to silence other minority groups as well.

Quoting Margaret Atwood here: "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." In general, this is still a true statement. And it's not just feminists, sometimes something as simple as posting opinions on local politics can trigger verbal abuse such as "I hope you get raped with a gorsebush".

Yeah, I thought you'd say something like that, which is why I lead with Milo.

Let's do Jenny Bharaj now, the YouTube girl getting harassment and threats...from the pro-Zoe/Anita/feminism crowd, for voicing her support of #GamerGate. I expect a lot of eloquent outrage.

You know, when I made this thread. I was mostly thinking we would be talking about games and not really get into the death threat stuff. That was kind of silly, but also very irresponsible. (It was wrong.) The death threat issue is actually a very big problem sounding the issues of female representation in games and wanting to avoid that problem is a problem in itself.

The perplexing thing is that one would imagine at the very least we should be able to agree that death threats are bad. Because you know death threats, but I don't know if we really all agree. (That is we as in everyone else. You in this thread are cool.) With this new flare up of hate, I am seeing more passive support of it. I have seen my steam friends list find excuses to excuse the abuse and that bothers me. Even I was thinking that this thread might be a good way to talk about the games issue without tackling this issue of abuse and that bothers me too.

Is anyone else bothered by this?

nomotog wrote:
You know, when I made this thread. I was mostly thinking we would be talking about games and not really get into the death threat stuff. That was kind of silly, but also very irresponsible. (It was wrong.) The death threat issue is actually a very big problem sounding the issues of female representation in games and wanting to avoid that problem is a problem in itself.

The perplexing thing is that one would imagine at the very least we should be able to agree that death threats are bad. Because you know death threats, but I don't know if we really do all agree. (That is we as in everyone else. You in this thread are cool ) With this new flare up of hate, I am seeing more passive support of it. I have seen my steam friends list find excuses to excuse the abuse and that bothers me. Even I was thinking that this thread might be a good way to talk about the games issue without tackling this issue of abuse and that bothers me too.

Is anyone else bothered by this?

I'm bothered by people who shriek in horror and outrage in one case and shrug their shoulders in indifference in another based simply on who got threatened or did the threatening.

I'm not particularly bothered by the seeming epidemic of threats though, no. They're far older than the internet when it comes to responding to controversial opinions. They shouldn't exist, but they do, and they're not going away, so ginning up a rending of garments and cursing of the gods response when it's politically advantageous to do so doesn't make much of an impression on me.

 Seaward wrote:
If you think I'm a centrist for any sake, let alone its own, you've never read a thing I've said here.

Saying "both sides are equally bad" is, by definition, centrism.

 Seaward wrote:
Let's do Jenny Bharaj now, the YouTube girl getting harassment and threats...from the pro-Zoe/Anita/feminism crowd, for voicing her support of #GamerGate. I expect a lot of eloquent outrage.

See my above statement. regarding why that threat should be taken seriously and people who made it should be shunned.

I'm not going to post a long -winded rant here for your amusement. I don't like you enough to even try, unlike with Matty

 Melissia wrote:
Saying "both sides are equally bad" is, by definition, centrism.

Then I suppose it's a good thing I didn't say that.

See my above statement. regarding why that threat should be taken seriously and people who made it should be shunned.

Just not by you, or what? I mean, you want the GamerGate people to disband and completely denounce their movement based on the actions of a tiny minority, but when your side of the issue does the exact same thing as you're accusing the other side of doing, well, hey, can't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch?

 Seaward wrote:

nomotog wrote:
You know, when I made this thread. I was mostly thinking we would be talking about games and not really get into the death threat stuff. That was kind of silly, but also very irresponsible. (It was wrong.) The death threat issue is actually a very big problem sounding the issues of female representation in games and wanting to avoid that problem is a problem in itself.

The perplexing thing is that one would imagine at the very least we should be able to agree that death threats are bad. Because you know death threats, but I don't know if we really do all agree. (That is we as in everyone else. You in this thread are cool ) With this new flare up of hate, I am seeing more passive support of it. I have seen my steam friends list find excuses to excuse the abuse and that bothers me. Even I was thinking that this thread might be a good way to talk about the games issue without tackling this issue of abuse and that bothers me too.

Is anyone else bothered by this?

I'm bothered by people who shriek in horror and outrage in one case and shrug their shoulders in indifference in another based simply on who got threatened or did the threatening.

I'm not particularly bothered by the seeming epidemic of threats though, no. They're far older than the internet when it comes to responding to controversial opinions. They shouldn't exist, but they do, and they're not going away, so ginning up a rending of garments and cursing of the gods response when it's politically advantageous to do so doesn't make much of an impression on me.

Shouldn't this bother you though? When did we get so accepting that this is just how it is? Is it too much to ask that people be upset. Maybe some rending of garments is called for .

nomotog wrote:
The death threat issue is actually a very big problem sounding the issues of female representation in games and wanting to avoid that problem is a problem in itself.

It really isn't, because it's not a issue of "female representation". Death threads on the Internet are stupidly common, and like "Go kill yourself IRL" they're basically meaningless and are often given out for the most trivial things. Change features in a game and the dev's get death threats. Kill off a beloved character in a TV show and the writers get death threats. The Internet has made death threats a far easier thing to send. To claim that they're an "issue of female representation in games" is to ignore how common they really are, and how often they're directed at people who aren't women. They're a bad thing in general, and are not inherently related to women in gaming.

nomotog wrote:
Shouldn't this bother you though? When did we get so accepting that this is just how it is? Is it too much to ask that people be upset. Maybe some rending of garments is called for in this case.

What's that old serenity prayer? Lord, give me the strength to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference?

This definitely falls in the first category.

 mattyrm wrote:
I'll just be over here worrying about FGM and Sharia courts thanks girls.

That is kind of like going on a thread about the stigma associated to wargaming and saying “this issue is ridiculous because they are killing emos in Irak”

 mattyrm wrote:
I am a feminist

You know, you have been insisting on this so much it reminds me of an expression I just learned about recently: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". But seriously, stop thinking about this whole thing as feminism (and making it personal too), if that helps. Do you not agree that female representation in game includes way too much sexualization? And that there are way, way more damsel in distress than dude in distress? And that this makes game less appealing to women?
If you answered yes to those three questions, then congrats, you do agree with what 99% of the people who have a problem with female representation in video game think. Maybe not with the two examples that you like to tout out as militant feminists (if they are not just strawwomen), but really, who the hell cares about them?

And goddammit, stop trying to make this into a discussion on you, and whether or not you are a feminist, and whether or not your ladies friends are feminists .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Do you not agree that female representation in game includes way too much sexualization?

No more or less than any other entertainment industry.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And that there are way, way more damsel in distress than dude in distress?

No more or less than any other entertainment industry.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And that this makes game less appealing to women?

It's not a question that really needs an answer. Most women who play games play social games/mobile games/Facebook games that they find appealing and are keyed to that demographic. The explosion in female gamers comes from this newfound... platform, I guess is the best word for it. People play games that appeal to them, attempting to make games that appeal to everyone is a fool's errand, and demographics are a real thing; not just in games, but in any other entertainment industry. That doesn't mean that stupid things don't happen (eg. Naughy Dog having to fight to get Ellie on the cover of The Last of Us), but I don't think video games sit as some great bastion of anti-female-ness.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No more or less than any other entertainment industry.

I think more so than both movie industry and music industry. But how should that matter anyway?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's not a question that really needs an answer.

It is not a question you want to answer, rather.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The explosion in female gamers comes from this newfound... platform, I guess is the best word for it.

How is that in any way related to the fact PC and console games have trends that makes them less welcoming to women?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
but I don't think video games sit as some great bastion of anti-female-ness.

So, uh, basically, rather than wanting to discuss the issue, you go all defensive about how your hobby is not-so-bad-the-other-do-worse? You do realize that I play games too, a lot, and pretty much everyone in this thread does to. You do not need to be defensive like that, nobody is going to blame you for playing the same game we also do, and nobody is trying to demonize games. Right?

Except CoD. CoD can be demonized.

He is playing CoD? I retract everything I said, H.B.M.C., actually you are a terrible person and you should feel terrible!
Kidding, I do not even know that much about CoD. It used to be about WW2 iirc, but I am not that much into FPS in a realistic setting, I find that a bit cringeworthy. I would rather play Painkiller or Unreal Tournament.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think more so than both movie industry and music industry.

Than the music industry? Yikes. I'd say they're worse.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, uh, basically, rather than wanting to discuss the issue, you go all defensive about how your hobby is not-so-bad-the-other-do-worse? You do realize that I play games too, a lot, and pretty much everyone in this thread does to. You do not need to be defensive like that, nobody is going to blame you for playing the same game we also do, and nobody is trying to demonize games. Right?

What's there to discuss? I don't see the gaming industry's treatment of women as having any real difference to other forms of entertainment media. Why single them out as a great evil or, as some people are keen to do, deeply rooted in "misogyny" (a word that gets used far too often) or even the dreaded P-word. As I've said, there are problems in the gaming industry - even gave one such example, and there are more - but they're outliers. Most people playing games just play games. They don't sit there analysing whether the box-art for Divinity shows too much cleavage or whether the Dragon's Crown sorceress' boobs are too big. They just play the game.

Yeah, the music industry is way, way worse when it comes to portraying women than games.

I mean, have you watched a rap video?

 Slarg232 wrote:
Except CoD. CoD can be demonized.

The last statistics (that came out along side that 40-whatever-% of gamers are female info) were quite surprising for CoD. It was only around 80% male for that game, so a high percentage of female gamers for that game. Of course most of the other games (Battlefield, DOTA/LOL, etc.) were high 90's for male gamers, whereas the surge of female games come from things like Farmville and Candy Crush. Now there's nothing wrong with that, but it does show more than ever the whole point about demographics.

I don't honestly see why every is all "Girls play Candy Crush, and that game is lame".

No one seems to have heard of a Gateway Drug.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Than the music industry? Yikes. I'd say they're worse.

What? Were did you find any damsel outside of power metal bands lyrics .
Actually, I guess it depends quite a bit on which kind of music we are talking about.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why single them out as a great evil

Because we are in the “video game” section of DakkaDakka. I would gladly discuss about the portrayal of women in comic books if there was a comic books section and if I had a real interest in comic books, but that is not the case. For movies… as for music, it depends quite a bit on which kind of movie, and on top of that, contrarily to video games, I am not that much interested in mainstream movies anyway.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Most people playing games just play games. They don't sit there analysing whether the box-art for Divinity shows too much cleavage or whether the Dragon's Crown sorceress' boobs are too big. They just play the game.

So, your suggestion is that we do like most people, because they are most people. Is that it? Is that why we should not discuss on bikini armor?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I mean, have you watched a rap video?

Damn right I did!
Then again, music include this:


and this:


and this:


and this:


and that:



People do not usually talk about women in music because what will be hugely relevant to women in punk (the whole riot grrrl movement) will be totally irrelevant to women in rap music, or classical music, or heavy metal, or jazz, or…

Also interesting bit of information....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/half-of-viking-warriors-may-have-been-women-says-study/article20331819/

So viking warriors would be interesting to see.

Which means that most movies that think the vikings were sexist. Need to read history.



Anyway

I love realistic women in games.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Also interesting bit of information....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/half-of-viking-warriors-may-have-been-women-says-study/article20331819/

So viking warriors would be interesting to see.

Which means that most movies that think the vikings were sexist. Need to read history.



Anyway

I love realistic women in games.

Although several female corpses were buried with weapons, the majority of the Norse women settlers mentioned in the study were found with oval brooches used to hold up their aprons, he wrote.
On the plus side, “while women buried with weapons are rare, they *are* being found,” he pointed out.

Let's not get carried away.

Also, something about that "on the plus side" bothers me immensely.

I'm not even sure that's new information so much as new evidence.

There are numerous accounts through out the history of Europe of Germanic and Norse people's concerning women with weapons in battle. The issue has typically been a lack of physical evidence outside textual sources to back up such accounts. Especially with the Romans, you have to be very careful with what they say. On the one hand it could be true, and on the other it could be Roman propaganda written to spin the tale of "those terrible barbarians sending their women out to fight!" (Yeah on top of being slave owners, Romans were really really sexist. On the plus side, they were less sexist than the Greeks )

 LordofHats wrote:
I'm not even sure that's new information so much as new evidence.

There are numerous accounts through out the history of Europe of Germanic and Norse people's concerning women with weapons in battle. The issue has typically been a lack of physical evidence outside textual sources to back up such accounts. Especially with the Romans, you have to be very careful with what they say. On the one hand it could be true, and on the other it could be Roman propaganda written to spin the tale of "those terrible barbarians sending their women out to fight!" (Yeah on top of being slave owners, Romans were really really sexist. On the plus side, they were less sexist than the Greeks )

I don't think I've ever seen anyone dispute that female warriors, while rare, did occur throughout history.

 LordofHats wrote:
I'm not even sure that's new information so much as new evidence.

There are numerous accounts through out the history of Europe of Germanic and Norse people's concerning women with weapons in battle. The issue has typically been a lack of physical evidence outside textual sources to back up such accounts. Especially with the Romans, you have to be very careful with what they say. On the one hand it could be true, and on the other it could be Roman propaganda written to spin the tale of "those terrible barbarians sending their women out to fight!" (Yeah on top of being slave owners, Romans were really really sexist. On the plus side, they were less sexist than the Greeks )

Well, the thing is, a lot of early historians/anthropologists said "if they have a sword they're male unless you find evidence to the contrary". That's really the only thing that the article linked attacks-- it doesn't actually say half of all viking warriors was female, since that article talked about settlers. The study basically says "we should use bone structure to determine gender, not the items they're buried with", which is true in that it will lead to a more accurate assertion of gender ratios in anthropological studies. Though it's quite telling that women settlers were buried with swords in their society-- certainly makes viking society quite a bit different from the rest of European society!

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Exactly what is rare? Almost never? Uncommon? Unusual but common enough that it's not that surprising when you see it? Rare is a vague word. History doesn't like vague if it can help it. And exactly how common, or how accepted, women warriors were in history is still a very vague question in a lot of places.

 LordofHats wrote:
I guess it's a matter of perspective. Exactly what is rare? Almost never? Uncommon? Unusual but common enough that it's not that surprising when you see it? Rare is a vague word. History doesn't like vague if it can help it. And exactly how common, or how accepted, women warriors were in history is still a very vague question in a lot of places.

I think a solid answer, if any is a long ways off. History in general has a lot of catching up to do when it comes to paying attention to women. Outside of the how it relates to video games in this context, it's telling that stuff like this always gets the most attention.

Hell, I think it's still a relatively recent discovery that China was at one time a matriarchal society (parts of it anyway) but we still have no idea exactly how that society was structured, or in what way it began to shift to the later Imperial system China is most known for. And even in that system, the roll of women has been for a long time ignored. The Imperial Harem was at times run by women, and was one of the most powerful bodies in all of China. Just look at the Wiki article on the Sultanate of Women.

130 years of Ottoman History and all they got is a paragraph!

For what it's worth, whenever I play a game with a character creation system I usually play as a girl.

With regards to the "Women always seem to be the agility or magic classes" I don't think it's sexist per se. Sexual dimorphism is a real thing after all- generally speaking, men tend to have more upper body strength than women, whilst women tend to have greater reflexes and better development in certain cognitive areas than men. Obviously this isn't an ironclad rule, but it is worth bearing in mind. So whilst I agree that women shouldn't be shoehorned into the "fragile speedster" and "mage" stereotypes all the time, it does have some basis in reality. I'd still love to see more women with greatswords though.

I'd personally like to see more transgender characters in games- preferably just as members of the cast in your average fun game, rather than the centre of some artsy indie bs where everything is about that character being dysphoric. I'd argue that the need to make a big deal of a character being female or transgender or homosexual or whatever is almost as damaging as them not being present at all. Guilty Gear did it right- Bridget actually being a guy is something that's only rarely brought up, the few times it is mentioned being for good-natured humour. Same with Poison of Final Fight fame- she's a badass fighter who just so happens to be a transsexual.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
For what it's worth, whenever I play a game with a character creation system I usually play as a girl.

With regards to the "Women always seem to be the agility or magic classes" I don't think it's sexist per se. Sexual dimorphism is a real thing after all- generally speaking, men tend to have more upper body strength than women, whilst women tend to have greater reflexes and better development in certain cognitive areas than men. Obviously this isn't an ironclad rule, but it is worth bearing in mind. So whilst I agree that women shouldn't be shoehorned into the "fragile speedster" and "mage" stereotypes all the time, it does have some basis in reality. I'd still love to see more women with greatswords though.

I'd personally like to see more transgender characters in games- preferably just as members of the cast in your average fun game, rather than the centre of some artsy indie bs where everything is about that character being dysphoric. I'd argue that the need to make a big deal of a character being female or transgender or homosexual or whatever is almost as damaging as them not being present at all. Guilty Gear did it right- Bridget actually being a guy is something that's only rarely brought up, the few times it is mentioned being for good-natured humour. Same with Poison of Final Fight fame- she's a badass fighter who just so happens to be a transsexual.

You know it's not so much that it is sexist. It just really grinds on you after awhile.

I would love to see some transsexual characters too. Though maybe make it a little bit of a deal.

 Melissia wrote:
Though it's quite telling that women settlers were buried with swords in their society-- certainly makes viking society quite a bit different from the rest of European society!

I don't know if that's necessarily true. I'm not saying that Viking culture wasn't unique, but it wasn't the only unique culture in Europe, and I would hesitate to claim that there was some sort of unified European society that Viking culture was apart from. While I don't know if they were buried with weapons (anthropology/archaeology aren't my fields) there were almost certainly female warriors in West Germanic culture as well. Brünnhilde from the Nibelungenlied springs to mind as a literary example. While she probably wasn't a real person, the fact that she is such a prominent figure in Germanic legend would suggest that the idea of a female warrior wasn't something alien to people at that time.

True. I know that the Scythians has warrior-women as part of their culture, for example. And it wasn't uncommon in Celtic culture as well.