Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/09/11 14:01:50
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I think the crux of his (maddox) argument is that the cover is 'optional', the artist is famous for provocative imagery of women and men, and Spiderman is shown is very similar poses all the time. I don't think there is anything wrong with what he said, but then he was arguing against people who have quite an extreme and badly thought out position. That kind of leads us into an argument from fallacy. Just because random people on the internet have stupid opinions that they can't defend, doesn't mean sexism doesn't exist or there aren't double standards for men and women.
I would also like to add an artist perspective on this. I frequent a few art forums, and have a special interest in comic book art (I even won a competition once). If you hang out in these places, It quickly becomes obvious that comic book artists have a preoccupation with anatomy. I've got three or four books myself just on drawing hands. So I think for a lot of artists, drawing skintight costumes is how they express all that hard won anatomical knowledge. Being able to draw someone who looks beautiful and sexy from imagination takes a lot of skill to do consistently, drawing ugly deformed people is very easy by contrast. So I think there might be other factors at work here besides sexism.
Artists will also tend to exaggerate certain characteristics to make the illusion more convincing. This is one of the reasons women are often drawn with high heels and their butts sticking out with the back arching inwards. It looks feminine, and the artists job is to mediate that the character is female. In truth human men and women look very alike. Aliens would have trouble telling us apart, in the same way we have trouble telling dogs or cats apart. We find it easy, but then we're human and we're hyper sensitive to the subtle differences in bone structure. In drawings these differences aren't as apparent unless they are exaggerated. This is one of the reasons why caricatures seem to look so like the people they represent, and yet few people could be identified from their silhouette (their true shape).
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 14:05:24
2014/09/11 14:03:32
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Not saying his work does not have problematic aspects, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.
Excellent point. Someone once asked me why I hate Mark Millar so much. I told them I had no reason to hate Mark Millar because he's just a hack. But I do hate Frank Miller and Alan Moore because those guys are (or at least were) extremely talented. They influenced comics in a terrible way that we are still trying to overcome but you have to admit that they were able to do so because they were so talented.
The thing is, Frank Miller used to be good, but these days he sort of IS a hack.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/11 14:10:52
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
sirlynchmob wrote: women seem to hate other women who are cuter than themselves. It's not about the game characters, it's about the feminist and their low self esteem.
This is a very interesting theory. So uh um, I'm like a dude. Like legit not a lady at all, body hair, shorter lifespan, the whole 9. Heck I'm like straight dude, in more appropriate contexts I actually rather enjoy sexualized images of women. How do you account for objection to the matter and the generally feminist-informed views I'm taking in this thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 14:26:50
2014/09/11 14:38:11
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
sirlynchmob wrote: women seem to hate other women who are cuter than themselves. It's not about the game characters, it's about the feminist and their low self esteem.
This is a very interesting theory. So uh um, I'm like a dude. Like legit not a lady at all, body hair, shorter lifespan, the whole 9. Heck I'm like straight dude, in more appropriate contexts I actually rather enjoy sexualized images of women. How do you account for objection to the matter and the generally feminist-informed views I'm taking in this thread.
Only you can answer those questions. their your views, how did you come by them?
But on a guess I'd say 'men are from mars' has the answer. A women voiced a problem, and as a man your instinct is to fix the problem.
1. Beauty
You don’t have to believe it to be true. If the women around you think you’re prettier than them, your fate is sealed. The prettier you are, the more threatened the women around you will feel. Your mere presence makes them feel like an ogre standing next to you.
talk to your significant other and ask her what she thinks of other women.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 14:46:24
2014/09/11 14:50:08
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
sirlynchmob wrote: women seem to hate other women who are cuter than themselves. It's not about the game characters, it's about the feminist and their low self esteem.
This is a very interesting theory. So uh um, I'm like a dude. Like legit not a lady at all, body hair, shorter lifespan, the whole 9. Heck I'm like straight dude, in more appropriate contexts I actually rather enjoy sexualized images of women. How do you account for objection to the matter and the generally feminist-informed views I'm taking in this thread.
Only you can answer those questions. their your views, how did you come by them?
sirlynchmob, I am disappoint. You made an assertion I provided a counter-example, now account for it. If the stink about game characters isn't about game characters but uggos being totes jelly of how girlfriend here be rockin ...whatever... this... is..., why am I raising a stink?
Spoiler:
I don't vagina.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 14:59:36
2014/09/11 14:53:15
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: I... reeeaaallllllyyy don't think that is the case, regarding the shoulders
Though certainly she has usually been depicted as having an attractive face, I think the main thing people like about her is how much of a badass she is.
I'm telling you. It's all about the arm cannon. Samus, Megaman, Megatron, and even Freiza's mooks, all understood the startling power of the arm cannon
Perhaps they're where he hides the compelling parts of his character.
Shots fired. (But, were they from an arm cannon
It's really weird how the arm cannon is almost universally regarded as badass.
sirlynchmob wrote: women seem to hate other women who are cuter than themselves. It's not about the game characters, it's about the feminist and their low self esteem.
This is a very interesting theory. So uh um, I'm like a dude. Like legit not a lady at all, body hair, shorter lifespan, the whole 9. Heck I'm like straight dude, in more appropriate contexts I actually rather enjoy sexualized images of women. How do you account for objection to the matter and the generally feminist-informed views I'm taking in this thread.
Only you can answer those questions. their your views, how did you come by them?
sirlynchmob, I am disappoint. You made an assertion I provided a counter-example, now account for it. If the stink about game characters isn't about game characters but uggos being totes jelly of how girlfriend here be rockin ...whatever... this... is..., why am I raising a stink?
Spoiler:
I don't vagina.
You're not an example though, you're merely a data point on a study. in psychology there is no one answer that applies to everyone, they do the study and deal with the largest population. There are always outliers, and odd data points. So when you talk about an individual, you need to discuss the individual.
2014/09/11 15:07:51
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
sirlynchmob wrote: women seem to hate other women who are cuter than themselves. It's not about the game characters, it's about the feminist and their low self esteem.
This is a very interesting theory. So uh um, I'm like a dude. Like legit not a lady at all, body hair, shorter lifespan, the whole 9. Heck I'm like straight dude, in more appropriate contexts I actually rather enjoy sexualized images of women. How do you account for objection to the matter and the generally feminist-informed views I'm taking in this thread.
Only you can answer those questions. their your views, how did you come by them?
sirlynchmob, I am disappoint. You made an assertion I provided a counter-example, now account for it. If the stink about game characters isn't about game characters but uggos being totes jelly of how girlfriend here be rockin ...whatever... this... is..., why am I raising a stink?
Spoiler:
I don't vagina.
Ummm wow. So thats scantly cladded O.o
Kind of skanky. Hows that useful in combat at all.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/11 15:08:56
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Dude. I'm not part of study, there is no study going on here. You made a very distinct claim and I quote you here:
women seem to hate other women who are cuter than themselves. It's not about the game characters, it's about the feminist and their low self esteem.
You've asserted that the issue at hand is that women with low self-esteem are making a stink because of that they think they game characters are prettier than they are. That's a claim. That's a claim that you made.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 15:11:56
2014/09/11 15:13:13
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
sirlynchmob wrote: If you draw a girl with boobs, she's sexualized, if you draw a character with bigger boobs than the average woman she's oversexualized.
This could be the most extreme bad faith argument ITT and that's saying something given AsherianCommand's many efforts yesterday.
For good faith participants/readers:
Sexualization is not measured in cup size any more than it is measured in square inches of exposed skin. It looks like the first step to understanding in this case is dropping the notion that we're going to figure out sexism with a tape measure.
To begin with, persons are sexual. This includes visually. We display sexual characteristics. Sexualization is emphasizing those characteristics. There is nothing inherently wrong with sexualization. Sexualization is often subverted, however, to dehumanize. Terms like "hypersexualization" most often refer to extreme cases of such dehumanization.
Kind of skanky. Hows that useful in combat at all.
And the odd thing is that the lack of clothes bother people more than the fact that those wings would make flight impossible and that staff weapon is preposterous. Loin clothes on sentient flying creatures is also a fantastic choice. Of course, then there's the abdominal area. I mean, she's this torso:
Spoiler:
Combined with every other part of this:
Spoiler:
Don't get me wrong, the lack of clothes is stupid, but the whole thing is an utterly ridiculous caricature of a female, a human being, martial combat, and physics in general.
I really have to struggle to get offended by what the thing is wearing, simply because the rest of it is completely outrageously bad. The most redeeming part about it is the name given to the character in obvious reference toward the hilarity of the fact that a model looking like that made it into the actual game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 15:21:46
Kind of skanky. Hows that useful in combat at all.
And the odd thing is that the lack of clothes bother people more than the fact that those wings would make flight impossible and that staff weapon is preposterous. Loin clothes on sentient flying creatures is also a fantastic choice. Of course, then there's the abdominal area. I mean, she's this torso:
Spoiler:
Combined with every other part of this:
Spoiler:
Don't get me wrong, the lack of clothes is stupid, but the whole thing is an utterly ridiculous caricature of a female, a human being, martial combat, and physics in general.
I really have to struggle to get offended by what the thing is wearing, simply because the rest of it is completely outrageously bad. The most redeeming part about it is the name given to the character in obvious reference toward the hilarity of the fact that a model looking like that made it into the actual game.
Considering how bad the design is in general I agree.
But considering how bad certain designs are that is not the worst design I've seen :/
I.E look up the prince of persia warrior within female bosses.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 16:04:41
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/11 19:07:00
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: However, missing the problem of basically every heroine ever being sexualized, much much more than the male ones, for instance?
I must wonder how much research you put into this?
My bet is on zero.
Research? Of course I did not do research, that sounds an awful lot like work. What I did, though, is read comic books. Because even though they are not my favorite pastime, I still like it. I mean, I just said I enjoyed Frank Miller's work, but that does not seem to fit your narrative that only evil people with an agenda that hates comic books and video game criticize how female character are represented in these mediums, so you ignored it…
Asherian Command wrote: Thats not true. She probably just looked up heroines and used the first result ^.^
Alice Liddell. And yes, she is not sexualized. And yes, I was making hyperbole, saying “every” instead of “almost every”, and yes, comic books and video games are very different medium.
Melissia wrote: Actually most of the time Superman doesn't have pouches.
I was mostly commenting about what is known by fans as Bearded Idiot, a superman-like hobo in "Superman: At Earth's End".
You know.
Spoiler:
... that guy.
Seems like a fun read.
Goliath wrote: And that the pose is almost an exact copy of another image of his, which consists of a woman in that position fiddling with herself to an audience?
It is not. Just like her pose is not the same as the pose of spiderman he uses. Really, spiderwoman is climbing at the top of a building. Her right leg is still below the roof. Just put slightly less emphasis on her butt and the cover will be just fine. The other image has the character actually putting her ass in the air to expose herself, and she is making a suggestive gesture with her finger in her mouth. I think this cover has been a bit blown out of proportion, because of the author.
sirlynchmob wrote: Iwomen seem to hate other women who are cuter than themselves. It's not about the game characters, it's about the feminist and their low self esteem.
Woah, classy. I wonder how long it will take before you start explaining that men that share this concern are actually all homosexuals.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 19:08:02
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/11 19:10:08
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Yeah, the boyscout superman never seemed that much interesting to me.
But it is the DCvel, so those are not characters, just franchise. So, some Supermen can still be awesome .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/11 19:25:05
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
But more than them I hate all the world's companies - be it video game companies or comic companies or any other entertainment distributors.
Why? Because the most holy thing to them is their PR image, and NOT the art that they produce and the identity of it.
If SJWs stir up enough of the consumer crowd, companies are the first to cave in and yield to their demands, censoring, redrawing and redesigning to make sure they dont end up on the news.
For them revenue and profit margins are always more important than artistic license.
But they are incredibly shortsighted, because in their attempt to ward off the wrath of SJWs, they lose customers in the long run.
I'm not saying blatant sexist imagery is a great thing, but oftentimes in the right context it can be seen as a distinct artform.
And the 80s was full of it. What I'm trying to say is that SJWs and parents have irrevocably destroyed an art style in their mad fight for "justice".
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
2014/09/11 19:34:59
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
What is it with this irrational hatred of anyone who says anything critical about games, gamers, or game developers, and the labeling of them as "SJW", this nebulous thing that has no real meaning other than "a person who said something I don't like"?
Yes, I outright said it. Your dislike is irrational. You're asserting that they're losing customers, but there's no evidence of that.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2000 l 
2000 l 
2000 l 
1500 l 
1000 l 
1000 l 
Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 
1500 l
