Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/09/20 20:25:31
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Sigvatr wrote: MK is a bad example. It blatantly caters to men in each and every regard because female MK players are more of a myth than the Holy Grail.
I can now add 'myth' to my titles.
Also, MK might be OTT, but OTT does not inherently mean =< Bikini for women.
As opposed to bikinis for men? Though now that I think of it...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/20 20:25:38
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/09/20 20:37:55
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Sigvatr wrote: MK is a bad example. It blatantly caters to men in each and every regard because female MK players are more of a myth than the Holy Grail.
I can now add 'myth' to my titles.
Also, MK might be OTT, but OTT does not inherently mean =< Bikini for women.
Well, that puts you at one or two ranks below Godlike, so there's that.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/20 23:37:44
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I feel like this video could be used as some kind of Litmus test for how nerdy someone is XD
Also, wtf there's only two Tiffa's? Rizzle? Could have sworn that name was more common (at least more common than Sona XD)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, gonna have to call BS on Pan. Yeah but Pan exists, but what about all the other women in Dragon Ball?
Bulma -> Is relevant for the first story arc of the series and then fades into varying degrees of obscurity and uselessness until it's time to make a time machine/make a baby.
Launch -> Akira Toriyama forgot she existed. Seriously. He just plum forgot she existed.
Chi Chi -> Starts off as a wee little adventurer love interest, becomes a woman scored fighter, then gives up fighting to get married and cater to her layabout husband who has spent more time dead or in fist fights than he has with her.
Videl -> Starts off as a fighter love interest, gets beat up, and decides she'll just give up fighting and settle down.
#18 -> The only woman in this entire series who maintains her bad ass level, but still settles down and has a kid and mostly gives up fighting except when money is involved.
So yeah. Congrats Dragon Ball. It took you all the way to that disgrace that is GT, but you finally put a girl in the main cast of your storyline and didn't have her decay at all or give up fighting to settle down. Took you 12 years and two dozen story arcs to do it
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/21 00:01:55
Is it just me, or is this 90% JRPG? And 99% Japanese games in general .
I knew Jill Valentine, Miss Pacman, the two girls from Metal Slug, Lara Croft, Samus, Chun Li, Jade from BG&E, Bayonneta and those female champions from LoL. Why is there Pan from GT there? Why is the character from Portal missing? And what is the point of this video, exactly? Does it address the fact that Ashiraya cannot find a female character that is not hyper-sexualized in MK? No? But certainly there are tons of games where you cannot find a male character that is not hyper sexualized, right? Like, for instance… well, all those games, you know!
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/21 00:12:13
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 00:16:38
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/21 00:28:09
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: I feel like this video could be used as some kind of Litmus test for how nerdy someone is XD
Also, wtf there's only two Tiffa's? Rizzle? Could have sworn that name was more common (at least more common than Sona XD)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, gonna have to call BS on Pan. Yeah but Pan exists, but what about all the other women in Dragon Ball?
Bulma -> Is relevant for the first story arc of the series and then fades into varying degrees of obscurity and uselessness until it's time to make a time machine/make a baby.
Launch -> Akira Toriyama forgot she existed. Seriously. He just plum forgot she existed.
Chi Chi -> Starts off as a wee little adventurer love interest, becomes a woman scored fighter, then gives up fighting to get married and cater to her layabout husband who has spent more time dead or in fist fights than he has with her.
Videl -> Starts off as a fighter love interest, gets beat up, and decides she'll just give up fighting and settle down.
#18 -> The only woman in this entire series who maintains her bad ass level, but still settles down and has a kid and mostly gives up fighting except when money is involved.
So yeah. Congrats Dragon Ball. It took you all the way to that disgrace that is GT, but you finally put a girl in the main cast of your storyline and didn't have her decay at all or give up fighting to settle down. Took you 12 years and two dozen story arcs to do it
You forgot freeza
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/21 00:42:57
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
God damn it, now I have to repress that memory all over again.
Thanks Malus. Thanks
But yeah, DBZ is not the gold standard here About as far from it as we can get actually (though in Akira's defense, I think we all forgot about Launch... Cause we just didn't care...) Pretty sure having a woman on screen != role model Collette from Tales of Symphonia being another poster child. She's there, but she ends up in distress more than once and her character much amounts to "plot device + cute love interest"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 01:02:02
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Last one was released in 2012. How is movie released in 2012 old? What happened in those two years that it is not relevant anymore?
I can only go by the examples you posted, and the video you linked didn't look like animation from 2012. Do you have an example of that same nudity from the most recent one?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Well, I may have mistook you when you said you were not speaking about extreme examples but about more casual violence. I have plenty of examples of extreme violence from Japan.
I didn't say that; I think you're getting two different points I talked about mixed into a single one.
To recap, my opinion is that western culture has a habit of presenting graphic violence in a rather casual manner, by which I do not mean dialling said violence down but rather making it appear perfectly accepted rather than something to be horrified at. Someone recently talked about a game called Spec Ops The Line, and the very reason it attracted so much attention from the press was because this was a game that stood out by not following this trend, because even though it had a lot of violence, the game actually tried to make you feel bad about it. In the same post I mention how, at least in my opinion, Japanese media tend to utilise violence not just for the sake of violence either, but to help deliver the emotional component.
I find it difficult to find the right words to convey my perception, which is perhaps why we keep talking past each other here, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I perceive the use of violence there as "more artistic", less self-gratifying.
And as I mentioned here, of course there are examples of extreme violence from Japanese games, but the guro stuff is about as publicly accepted as hardcore pornography in the West, which I feel really only adds to my perception of a mirrored focus. And as I've shown with the link here, violent games are quite simply not as popular as they are in the western countries.
Your attempt at making Pokemon sound like a killer simulation is something I am not sure whether it was supposed to be meant serious or not.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I am pretty sure it is still the case in my middle and high school. Of course, some neighborhood are different, but this has pretty much always be the case, no?
Well, at least not in the case of my town.
Of course, part of it is also the economic situation that has been going down the drain ever since Reunification (so-called investors from West Germany using government subsidies to privatise once state-owned industry, then selling its assets piecemeal and making a quick buck), leaving a disillusioned youth with little perspective about their future. When it comes to violence in gaming, the question really just turns into "chicken or the egg" kind of situation. Everything is interlinked and influences one another.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:The first Soul Calibur too. Remember that awesome alternate outfit for Ivy? Should have been the default, instead of never showing up again.
I remember having played some installation of Soul Calibur during a Ultima Online server meeting ... I think it was the second game? I remember I really liked Sophitia - but I've recently seen how that character was changed over the course of the sequels. It's sad, really. The original character was already somewhat sexualised, if only for her animations, but her clothing and figure still made perfect sense. Then they had to go and ruin it by giving her melon boobs and cutting her cloth down to a glorified apron.
LordofHats wrote:
Spoiler:
I wanted to link to another comic, but it seems the escapist is currently down due to GamerGaters DDoSing the site. -_-
Still, thumbs up.
2014/09/21 01:10:57
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Is it just me, or is this 90% JRPG? And 99% Japanese games in general .
I knew Jill Valentine, Miss Pacman, the two girls from Metal Slug, Lara Croft, Samus, Chun Li, Jade from BG&E, Bayonneta and those female champions from LoL. Why is there Pan from GT there? Why is the character from Portal missing? And what is the point of this video, exactly? Does it address the fact that Ashiraya cannot find a female character that is not hyper-sexualized in MK? No? But certainly there are tons of games where you cannot find a male character that is not hyper sexualized, right? Like, for instance… well, all those games, you know!
Japan is actually better in this sense. They simply have more female characters. They tend to be less dressed, but the sheer number means your going to find a lot of neat ones just by odds.
2014/09/21 01:34:54
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Like I said earlier, while Japan often gets characterized as 'sex obsessed' or perverted, I'm not really sure it's valid to project our social issues with sex and gender onto them. I'm not saying Japan is a beacon of sexual equality, they most certainly are not, but the issues they face seemed take a different tone than ours.
In any given series, you can almost be assured that there will be some strong female characters in it. Ones with their own stories to tell, and who don't completely revolve around the male hero, and this is just series' directed at boys. Revolutionary Girl Utena alone provides massive amounts of debate fodder for its depiction of the female leads (it never hit in the US, but it's on par with NGE as a major cultural influence in Japan). More recently there was Kill la Kill which was... well it was Kill la Kill...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/21 01:41:04
Oh, Japan IS sex-crazed, just in a different way than we are
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/21 23:06:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Lynata wrote: I can only go by the examples you posted, and the video you linked didn't look like animation from 2012. Do you have an example of that same nudity from the most recent one?
Bad quality rip from a movie from 1998. Because I wanted something in English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-uPKpC4yMw Less boobs in this trailer, but definitely there are some. I have not seen the movie, but I guess it does not have the super-quick cut of the trailer.
Lynata wrote: Your attempt at making Pokemon sound like a killer simulation is something I am not sure whether it was supposed to be meant serious or not.
PETA, I choose you!
*Launch pokeball*
PETA use Pokemon Black and Blue.
It is super effective!
Lynata wrote: I remember having played some installation of Soul Calibur during a Ultima Online server meeting ... I think it was the second game? I remember I really liked Sophitia - but I've recently seen how that character was changed over the course of the sequels. It's sad, really. The original character was already somewhat sexualised, if only for her animations, but her clothing and figure still made perfect sense.
The original character from Soul Calibur 1 on Dreamcast share the huge majority of her moves with my main, Lizardman. So, not so sexualized, actually. Maybe for the pre and post-match animations, I do not remember.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/22 01:57:48
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-uPKpC4yMw
Less boobs in this trailer, but definitely there are some. I have not seen the movie, but I guess it does not have the super-quick cut of the trailer.
Thanks, I was able to watch this with a French proxy. And I have to say I'm impressed - I've (sadly) not seen anything like it in Germany or Ireland over the past decade. That being said: Would you really say that this movie series is an example of standard French kids' TV/cinema when it comes to nudity, or is it rather an exception, driven by Ocelot's personal (and laudable) convictions regarding authenticity? According to the internets, the movie faced quite a bit of controversy and criticism, and the director had to fight with his producers over this topic as well, which seems to support my perception of cultural affinities and aversions.
I know very little of French cinema except for Louis de Funès (<3), Asterix, The Fifth Element, Brotherhood of the Wolf and a bit of Wakfu, however, so only you could say for sure.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It is super effective!
It would have been more effective as an example if that was actually a game from Japan. An innocent kids' game receiving additional gore and blood in the west kind of supports my theory, even.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:The original character from Soul Calibur 1 on Dreamcast share the huge majority of her moves with my main, Lizardman. So, not so sexualized, actually. Maybe for the pre and post-match animations, I do not remember.
Like I said, I think I played the 2nd game - and in one of her attacks she basically jumped into people's faces, the shortness of her skirt making sure that her opponent would be smothered with panties. That qualifies as a fetish!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/22 01:58:56
2014/09/22 02:33:25
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Lynata wrote: That being said: Would you really say that this movie series is an example of standard French kids' TV/cinema when it comes to nudity, or is it rather an exception, driven by Ocelot's personal (and laudable) convictions regarding authenticity? According to the internets, the movie faced quite a bit of controversy and criticism, and the director had to fight with his producers over this topic as well, which seems to support my perception of cultural affinities and aversions.
It is certainly not standard French kids TV to have nudity. But how is this surprising? Most of it happens in an environment where nudity would not make sense.
Lynata wrote: I know very little of French cinema except for Louis de Funès (<3), Asterix, The Fifth Element, Brotherhood of the Wolf and a bit of Wakfu, however, so only you could say for sure.
The Fifth Element is French? I thought it was from the U.S. Anyhow, look for Dobermann (if you do not mind violence) and Rubber, Wrong and Wrong Cops from Quentin Dupieux. And possibly Martyr too.
Lynata wrote: It would have been more effective as an example if that was actually a game from Japan. An innocent kids' game receiving additional gore and blood in the west kind of supports my theory, even.
Have you just looked at the graphics, or have you looked at the text too ?
Lynata wrote: Like I said, I think I played the 2nd game - and in one of her attacks she basically jumped into people's faces, the shortness of her skirt making sure that her opponent would be smothered with panties. That qualifies as a fetish!
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/09/22 02:45:15
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/22 03:30:35
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:It is certainly not standard French kids TV to have nudity. But how is this surprising? Most of it happens in an environment where nudity would not make sense.
Oh, I dunno - I suppose mainly dressing rooms, possibly swimming ... stuff like that.
All the places we get to see non-sexual / casual nudity in Japanese anime.
Lynata wrote:The Fifth Element is French? I thought it was from the U.S.
I had to re-check to make sure, but ... yup, at least according to wikipedia and the IMDB.
It certainly looks hollywood'esque, which really speaks a lot for the quality French cinema can reach when it wants to. German cinema seems to have a much harder time with this, though every once in a while something worthwhile like Lexx gets produced anyways. Very rare, tho, and often just in collaboration with other countries.
Thanks for those recommendations, I'll take a look at what they're about and may check them out if the themes are interesting.
Oh! Just recalled two other French movies I liked. Wasabi (Jean Renault ftw) and Taxi Taxi.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Have you just looked at the graphics, or have you looked at the text too ?
I've seen where it's hosted - the context of the game did not elude me, I'm just not sure why you posted it.
Sort of - it's the same kind of jump, but I'm 99% sure it was not a finisher as I recall my opponent complaining I'd use it too often (it really was the easiest move to win with) ... It's been more than a decade, though, and I cannot entirely dismiss the possibility of my memory just mixing things up.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Also THAT IVY COSTUME!
Very RogueTrader'ish.
2014/09/22 08:02:06
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Lynata wrote: Oh, I dunno - I suppose mainly dressing rooms, possibly swimming ... stuff like that.
I do not watch enough kids movie to know what happens when they show a dressing room or a swimming pool, sorry.
Lynata wrote: It certainly looks hollywood'esque, which really speaks a lot for the quality French cinema can reach when it wants to.
Hollywood is quality ? Not sure I agree.
Anyhow, I thought of another movie that you certainly might want to take a look at: Chicken with Plums. Very poetic, and you will get to see a portrayal of Iran very different from what you will see anywhere else, including if going to Iran since the country really changed a lot since that time .
Lynata wrote: I've seen where it's hosted - the context of the game did not elude me, I'm just not sure why you posted it.
I think it makes a great work at showing how any real-life equivalent of pokemon would be a blood sport and would be banned as it would be considered cruelty toward animals. I mean, you are forcing them to fight until all the pokemon from one trainer faint. For fun and profit. Fun and profit of the trainer only. Once you think about it, even if there is no graphical violence, the core idea is pretty disturbing.
Lynata wrote: Sort of - it's the same kind of jump, but I'm 99% sure it was not a finisher as I recall my opponent complaining I'd use it too often (it really was the easiest move to win with) ...
There are no finisher in Soul Calibur. There is one move where Astaroth literally sink his giant axe so deep into your character's head that when he lift the axe, your character comes with it, and he use that to throw you away. And then you character can just stand up and fight again, it does not even remove that much life!
(It is a very rare move because it is a hold that works only on a lying character, but it is the move that really cries “Nobody should be able to survive that” the most.)
Are you thinking of the somersault/back somersault attack? That one is shared with Lizardman, and used much more often.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/22 17:31:40
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I definitely remember the Sophitia face jump from SC1. While not as bad as some, SC1 ( My favorite fighting game of all time) did have little things like that. And Taki seemed to be always cold...
2014/09/23 13:21:04
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Hollywood is quality ? Not sure I agree.
At least in terms of fancy visuals, yeah, I think it still is. Hollywood's issue nowadays is more of a problem with bad story/narration and cliché characters, but this is something that any country should be able to resolve and a matter of the people involved, so not that special. To actually make something look good, however, you need tons of cash!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I think it makes a great work at showing how any real-life equivalent of pokemon would be a blood sport and would be banned as it would be considered cruelty toward animals. I mean, you are forcing them to fight until all the pokemon from one trainer faint. For fun and profit. Fun and profit of the trainer only. Once you think about it, even if there is no graphical violence, the core idea is pretty disturbing.
You can apply that kind of disturbing context to just about anything, though. Maybe the children's story of Red Riding Hood is actually an erotic gore novel about bestiality, cannibalism, and dependence on the male gender.
The actual representation should not be discarded. Hidden meanings may exist in any product, but needless to say, one can take it too far.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:There are no finisher in Soul Calibur.
Oh, on the video you posted it looked like it, but I suppose it was just coincidence as the opponent's health bar was already so low.
I guess that is the move, then.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 13:21:38
2014/09/23 14:41:10
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Lynata wrote: At least in terms of fancy visuals, yeah, I think it still is.
Oh, on that front, it is quite possible. But Hollywood is getting way too formulaic (is this the right English word?) for my tastes. It lacks a touch of crazy, or at least originality.
Korean movies also have enough cash to make movie with fancy visuals, even those that require tons of special effects, like that one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKZ55OiHl9w And damn those Korean can do nice movies. Usually pretty hard, but nice nonetheless.
Lynata wrote: You can apply that kind of disturbing context to just about anything, though. Maybe the children's story of Red Riding Hood is actually an erotic gore novel about bestiality, cannibalism, and dependence on the male gender.
You would have to change the story of RRH to include sex. Or reference to the gender of the wolf, for that matter. For pokemon, it is not about changing anything to the setting. It is just about considering the disturbing aspect that are not evoked in the slightest in the game, but that we could not avoid to consider if it was a real world rather than fiction.
Lynata wrote: The actual representation should not be discarded. Hidden meanings may exist in any product, but needless to say, one can take it too far.
The actual representation of pokemon have pokemon fighting each other because their trainer told them to. The actual representation has them fight until they faint or you win the match. There is nothing hidden. It is right there in the game.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/23 16:41:42
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The *actual* representation involves young children and adults using trained beasts that breathe fire and shoot lethal electric bolts in order to make their opponent faint and, consequently, rob his pocket money.
Pokemon, for kids!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 16:41:53
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Oh, on that front, it is quite possible. But Hollywood is getting way too formulaic (is this the right English word?) for my tastes. It lacks a touch of crazy, or at least originality.
Absolutely.
There is still good "popcorn cinema" such as the various superhero movies that get churned out bi-yearly now, but I can't recall the last time I've really seen something thought-provoking or sociocritical, at least in regards to mainstream. There are still exceptions from this rule, however. Plus, nowadays we have easier access to foreign cinema, even just when using Netflix.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:And damn those Korean can do nice movies. Usually pretty hard, but nice nonetheless.
Agreed.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:You would have to change the story of RRH to include sex. Or reference to the gender of the wolf, for that matter.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:The actual representation of pokemon have pokemon fighting each other because their trainer told them to. The actual representation has them fight until they faint or you win the match. There is nothing hidden. It is right there in the game.
Said representation also includes an absence of blood, death and lasting injury (which your link obviously disregarded), as well as a symbiotic relationship between an intelligent pet and their trainer that made it obvious that the pokemon is not actually forced to do anything.
Compare that to the contents of the Grimm's tales. Or better yet, the story of Max and Moritz!
Anyways, what are we argueing about here, really? Do you honestly want to put Pokemon on the same pedestal as Doom and Postal? I'm still not sure what you are trying to prove in this regard.
2014/09/24 01:52:37
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Even in this version it is only very strongly implied.
Lynata wrote: as well as a symbiotic relationship between an intelligent pet and their trainer that made it obvious that the pokemon is not actually forced to do anything.
On the anime, maybe. On the game, you just capture them by imprisoning them in a ball and then they obey you.
Lynata wrote: Compare that to the contents of the Grimm's tales.
Grimm's tales are grim, of course . They never were examples of nice non-violent stories.
Lynata wrote: Do you honestly want to put Pokemon on the same pedestal as Doom and Postal?
No, actually in Doom you are fighting demons, that are bad by definition, and likely cannot even die in the usual sense of the therm, so that game is okay. I have not played Postal, but in Postal², it is possible to win the game without killing anyone. It is impossible to win pokemon without giving the opponents pokemon a beating until they faint.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
~4100
~1660
? Not sure I agree.
