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Me and my friends were discussing what would happen say if all the primarchs stayed loyal to the emperor or basically didn't go rouge or fall to the Chaos Gods allowing for the Horus Heresy never to happen. There were many opinions and theories thrown back and forth and are wondering what are your guy's thoughts?

Every would be a better place,at least if you are a human.

acidlemon wrote:
Me and my friends were discussing what would happen say if all the primarchs stayed loyal to the emperor or basically didn't go rouge or fall to the Chaos Gods allowing for the Horus Heresy never to happen. There were many opinions and theories thrown back and forth and are wondering what are your guy's thoughts?

the problem is, the HH was bound to happen. Half of the primarchs had bad realationships with the emperor and each other. Without the great crusade, what were to become of the primarchs and the space marines. They were built to conqure, not to be sentries. The iron warriors got the most guard duty out of all the legions and it drove them nearly to madness.

Ultramarines were actually very very good at guard duty. So were the fists. Neither had any REAL negatives from it. Others though... Kinda lost that whole "blades to plow shares" warrior-leaders vibe the empy wanted.

Yeah those are good points but the crusade wasn't ending to my knowledge and the necrons and tyranids hadn't really been discovered yet.

 Exergy wrote:


the problem is, the HH was bound to happen. Half of the primarchs had bad realationships with the emperor and each other. Without the great crusade, what were to become of the primarchs and the space marines. They were built to conqure, not to be sentries. The iron warriors got the most guard duty out of all the legions and it drove them nearly to madness.

True in a way. If Horus had stayed loyal though - along with the Primarchs who stayed loyal during the Heresy - it's unlikely any one of the more disgruntled Primarchs would have had enough pull to seriously threaten the Imperium. Angron and the World Eaters probably would have went mad and would have to be destroyed as a result, but it's unlikely he would be able to muster any more support to his Legion. The other traitor Legions would be better off but not in the same league as Horus.

And the galaxy is a big place. Always plenty of enemies to fight!

acidlemon wrote:
Me and my friends were discussing what would happen say if all the primarchs stayed loyal to the emperor or basically didn't go rouge or fall to the Chaos Gods allowing for the Horus Heresy never to happen. There were many opinions and theories thrown back and forth and are wondering what are your guy's thoughts?

That'd be less tragic and epic. They'd end up to be a boring eternal-win crusade and you wouldn't have probably hear about WH40k in the first place.

Eventually some of the Primarchs would have fallen in battle. Others the Emperor would probably dispose of once they had served their purpose, like what happened to the Thunder Warriors. I think several of the more loyal or ruthless Primarchs would have had little issue carrying out such orders. And some of the Primarchs would have been perfectly content as guardians and rulers of a more peaceful Imperium, and these could have continued to serve in such a capacity.

the space Marine job would have changed but never ended. Patrolling outer fringes, putting down rebellion and pirates, securing planets that may have had xeno outbreaks.

maybe smaller fleets and not working in same vast numbers but still a powerful military arm keeping the whole thing working and secured. the crusade as it where would not end with the conquest phase.

yes some like the world eaters or night lords etc may rebel but one or 2 cannot take on the whole others. Horus was was key to rebellion to bring all on to his side, ensuring best gear and arms.

And on Iron Warriors guard duty problems, seems they where more disrespected to me, not the guarding but getting nothing for it. they where treated badly, given bad jobs to do, none of the great battle honors like the others. they needed to be noticed and respected even if parts of the legion was working the roles which where not like spearheading the crusade.

Wasn't the Emperor's vision to help protect and transform humanity into a psychically aware species that could protect itself from the powers of the warp? He may have continued that route nurturing and accelerating psychic potential in man.

Also, if the Cult of the Emperor never really took off as strongly as it did, it is possible that the Imperium would not have so strongly rejected science and the further development of technology. It is quite possible that the Imperium would not have become stagnant in growth, and the extremes of wealth and poverty would not have taken root so early and so permanently.

I would imagine that conflicts would have arisen as more prosperous sectors start making deals with alien species in order to trade for raw materials or technology. As wealth accumulation gets bigger and bigger, I think there are two roads that might end in conflict. The first is that larger sectors could deem themselves independent and start inter-sector wars, and the Imperium of man would make war would these would-be fledgling empires.

Another possibility is that large sectors could develop over long stretches of time as most societies to so that the value of acquired capital greatly exceeds the yearly income. Without sufficient growth (growth always slows as full development or a bottle neck is reached), the rate of return on capital could exceed the growth leading to increasing concentration of wealth among elites within each sector. And as what happened among nations, this could lead to increased investment and takeover of foreign nations/sectors, perhaps reaching outright colonization of less developed nations. When multiple sectors reach this level of development, the same pressure for returns on capital could push them into war with each other.

Or you might get lucky and the various sub-empires and nations could learn to peacefully coexist. But we can't even manage that on a single planet, so I kinda doubt that one.

acidlemon wrote:
Me and my friends were discussing what would happen say if all the primarchs stayed loyal to the emperor or basically didn't go rouge or fall to the Chaos Gods allowing for the Horus Heresy never to happen. There were many opinions and theories thrown back and forth and are wondering what are your guy's thoughts?

If they didn't go rouge they would not be as pretty as they are today.


Oh, wait. You meant rogue.

 Inquisitor Gonzo wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


the problem is, the HH was bound to happen. Half of the primarchs had bad realationships with the emperor and each other. Without the great crusade, what were to become of the primarchs and the space marines. They were built to conqure, not to be sentries. The iron warriors got the most guard duty out of all the legions and it drove them nearly to madness.

True in a way. If Horus had stayed loyal though - along with the Primarchs who stayed loyal during the Heresy - it's unlikely any one of the more disgruntled Primarchs would have had enough pull to seriously threaten the Imperium. Angron and the World Eaters probably would have went mad and would have to be destroyed as a result, but it's unlikely he would be able to muster any more support to his Legion. The other traitor Legions would be better off but not in the same league as Horus.

And the galaxy is a big place. Always plenty of enemies to fight!

The Night Lords were disgruntled for non-Chaotic reasons. While the Word Bearers found Chaos, they might have just as easily backed Angron if they didn't- they sure as crap were still bitter. The Iron Warriors might have still sided with non-Chaotic traitors.

 Exergy wrote:

acidlemon wrote:
Me and my friends were discussing what would happen say if all the primarchs stayed loyal to the emperor or basically didn't go rouge or fall to the Chaos Gods allowing for the Horus Heresy never to happen. There were many opinions and theories thrown back and forth and are wondering what are your guy's thoughts?

the problem is, the HH was bound to happen. Half of the primarchs had bad realationships with the emperor and each other. Without the great crusade, what were to become of the primarchs and the space marines. They were built to conqure, not to be sentries. The iron warriors got the most guard duty out of all the legions and it drove them nearly to madness.

The Iron Warriors didn't get "guard" duty, they were dirt diggers. They were chucked into the meat grinder in sieges and then forced to garrison the fortresses they conquered or built. It was the fact they lost so much and weren't appreciated by the other Legions or glorified by remembrancers.

And as for what they would do after the Crusade, each Primarch had skills that would be suited to maintaining an empire. Perturabo for one wanted to rebuild Olympia and turn it into a grand old thing, beautiful enough that even Fulgrim would be astounded (and he was when he say the dream).

Here's what I envision would be each Primarch's role post-Crusade.

Lion = Teaching martial pride and bonds across the Legions through the establishment of a new Order like on Caliban, as well as governor of Caliban and its nearby systems.
Fulgrim = Cultural rejuvenation galaxy-wide and governor of Chemos
Perturabo = Architect and designing of cities and civilian areas of the hives and governor of Olympia.
Khan = Teaching honour and pride to the people, governor of Chogoris
Leman Russ = Internal security of the Legions, King of Fenris
Rogal Dorn = Defence Minister and Regent of Terra
Konrad Kurze = Internal security among the civilian population, governor of Nostromo
Sanguinius = Leads the armies of the Imperium, governor of Baal, successor to the Warmaster
Ferrus Manus = Envoy to the Mechanicum and researcher into new technological innovation.
Angron = Used to break the line in wars, Empire-wide patrols
Roboute Guilliman = Government, admin and bringing feral and death worlds into civilisation and setting up sustainable economy, Lord of Ultramar
Mortarion = Internal security, experimental weapons division of the army
Magnus = Power the Golden Throne, research into the Warp to find a way to keep it closed off, find fledgling psykers and mentor the emergence of pyskers
Horus = Overall ruler of the Imperium, Warmaster
Lorgar = Interpret the Emperor's will, reinforcement of the party line of Atheism apart from the Emperor
Vulkan = public relations, Trade unions, judicial system and lawyers, as well as envoy to the Mechanicum
Corax = part of the army, genetics, stealth-ops division
Alpharius and Omegon = CIA

The Emperor dissipates into the Warp to watch over humans and hold the Daemons and Dark Gods back, or else delves into perfecting the human webway.

Discounting for a moment the various non-Chaos reasons the Primarchs had for turning against the Emperor (and, who knows, maybe they would have gone to Family Counseling in M31?), if the HH had never happened, the setting would be absolutely nothing like it is currently presented.

The Ecclesiarchy would still exist, of course, but it would be significantly different than it currently is. The Emperor isn't stupid, he knows how the Warp works, and having untold quintillions of people directing their emotional veneration at you is an awfully-huge psychic power pill. Lorgar would be the High Ecclesiarch, directing Mankind in veneration of the Emperor and, most importantly, in emulation of Him, in the learning of sciences both mundane and psychic, guiding Mankind to its destiny as an evolution into a psychic species to rival the Eldar.

The Inquisition would exist, but it would be different. There would, most likely, be only the Ordos Xenos and Malleus in existence. Hereticus would probably not exist or, if it did, be much smaller, as the threats it deals with are greatly minimized by other agencies. It would remain a terrifying police force, however.

The Tau would cease to exist the moment they stepped foot off their planet. Nothing the Tau fields can stop a Primarch, let alone 18 of them with their Legions.

The Tyranids? The Hive Mind would know fear as its shadow encountered the blazing beacon of the Living Emperor's psychic might... there is no shadow that is not burned away by that radiance. His psychic might would be the galaxy's biggest bug-light. Zzap!

Necrons? They tangled with the Old Ones. Now they get to tangle with a Living God.

Necrons would probably roll over and go back to sleep for another sixty million years 'till the humans had devolved again.

Had the Emperor perfected the webway and connected all of the worlds of man, and the primarchs gone onto be civilian leaders in the imperial bureaucracy, mankind would have become like the eldar at their height. But there would have eventually been a civil war, chaos or not, because after war the only other activity mankind has any interest in is economics. The imperium would be too large for all parts to share economic interests. As soon as those interest got cross ways, the government would wither have to take a side and alienate a faction, or allow the two sides to battle it out. Either way a civil war would have started. Because this is a function of size, no matter how many rebellions the space marines put down wealthy imperial nobles would always start rebelling when their pocket books were hurt. It would basically boil down to either lose all of the wealth and status that my family has accrued or die fighting for it.

The imperium would be too large for all parts to share economic interests

Hence the webway. With that functioning, all the worlds of the Imperium are but a few minutes away.

Because this is a function of size, no matter how many rebellions the space marines put down wealthy imperial nobles would always start rebelling when their pocket books were hurt. It would basically boil down to either lose all of the wealth and status that my family has accrued or die fighting for it.

That happens in the current Imperium. It is sometimes successful... briefly.

Then the emperor will not die and it will lead humanity to a greater age of glory

 Psienesis wrote:

The imperium would be too large for all parts to share economic interests

Hence the webway. With that functioning, all the worlds of the Imperium are but a few minutes away.

Because this is a function of size, no matter how many rebellions the space marines put down wealthy imperial nobles would always start rebelling when their pocket books were hurt. It would basically boil down to either lose all of the wealth and status that my family has accrued or die fighting for it.

That happens in the current Imperium. It is sometimes successful... briefly.

Even with the web way, conventional regional travel would be necessary because of the impracticality of creating web gates for local in-system travel and trade. As a result of this policies that work for one region would hinder the economics and trade of another. Also armed forces on a local level will still be necessary for defense and these troops could be usurped by planetary governors and such as they are now.

Also if i'm not mistaken the web way gates aren't variable but are fixed so in order to get to a place less connected it would require multiple layovers on way points so the cost of trade across a web way would go up exponentially for each gate needed to reach the destination.

lastly the existence of web ways for humans for mass transit also wouldn't be possible because they would need to be tightly controlled and probably used for government use only because of the danger of a web way falling to an enemy such as Necrons or Tyranids. I guess they could sever that web way if the planet were to fall but that would still require constant government surveillance and administration, not to mention the possibility of Necrons figuring out how to work the web way technology and quickly use it to overrun entire systems. So they would be time consuming and prohibitively expensive.

Even with the web way, conventional regional travel would be necessary because of the impracticality of creating web gates for local in-system travel and trade.

Explain the logic underlying that conclusion.

If you can build a webway gate, why not put one on every planet with a population of a million or more?

Also if i'm not mistaken the web way gates aren't variable but are fixed so in order to get to a place less connected it would require multiple layovers on way points so the cost of trade across a web way would go up exponentially for each gate needed to reach the destination.

Sort of. Enter a gate in one location and, if you know the route of the Webway, you step out of another in another location. You won't need to do multiple hops in and out of the Webway to get to where you're going. With the human-controlled Webway, each Gate would be like a transportation hub, walk in, check the map, and then walk the web-way to your desired destination. You cross the galaxy in a matter of hours, days at the worst.

Remember that, right now, the Webway is kind of messed up. With the Heresy having never happened, the human-built sections of it will not have the problems the current, Eldar-built Webway does.

Also armed forces on a local level will still be necessary for defense and these troops could be usurped by planetary governors and such as they are now.

Yes, and web-way gates permit the rapid deployment of forces from just about anywhere in the galaxy. In this scenario, that deployment could include Primarchs or the Emperor Himself.

lastly the existence of web ways for humans for mass transit also wouldn't be possible because they would need to be tightly controlled and probably used for government use only because of the danger of a web way falling to an enemy such as Necrons or Tyranids.

The Necrons and Tyranids would be footnotes in the history of the Imperium at this point.

 Psienesis wrote:

Even with the web way, conventional regional travel would be necessary because of the impracticality of creating web gates for local in-system travel and trade.

Explain the logic underlying that conclusion.


If you can build a webway gate, why not put one on every planet with a population of a million or more?

Like any technology, I would assume that the cost of production and maintenance of each gate would cost an unimaginable sum. So they would only be built on capital worlds and such.

Also if i'm not mistaken the web way gates aren't variable but are fixed so in order to get to a place less connected it would require multiple layovers on way points so the cost of trade across a web way would go up exponentially for each gate needed to reach the destination.

Sort of. Enter a gate in one location and, if you know the route of the Webway, you step out of another in another location. You won't need to do multiple hops in and out of the Webway to get to where you're going. With the human-controlled Webway, each Gate would be like a transportation hub, walk in, check the map, and then walk the web-way to your desired destination. You cross the galaxy in a matter of hours, days at the worst.

Remember that, right now, the Webway is kind of messed up. With the Heresy having never happened, the human-built sections of it will not have the problems the current, Eldar-built Webway does.

I was under the impression it worked more like two keyed portal gates. i was mistaken in this.

Also armed forces on a local level will still be necessary for defense and these troops could be usurped by planetary governors and such as they are now.

Yes, and web-way gates permit the rapid deployment of forces from just about anywhere in the galaxy. In this scenario, that deployment could include Primarchs or the Emperor Himself.

at what level would that determination be made what kind of force would be dispatched? If there were multiple rebellions or if the rebelling faction controlled the gate, how would that be handled? The statement I was making was more along the lines of there would still be conflict and problems because the imperium would be too large to effectively govern from one government with or without the web way.

lastly the existence of web ways for humans for mass transit also wouldn't be possible because they would need to be tightly controlled and probably used for government use only because of the danger of a web way falling to an enemy such as Necrons or Tyranids.

The Necrons and Tyranids would be footnotes in the history of the Imperium at this point.

I don't think so, one, Necron tomb worlds were awakened and would pose a problem because each could potentially have tens of millions of Necrons in each one. also the Tyranids are being billions, maybe even trillions strong would still pose a significant threat to the imperium. If they happened in the same time frame in the alternate timeline, the imperium would have to deal with Necrons and Tyranids simultaneously. I think an unbroken imperium of man with the strength of the original legions could defeat it but I don't think ti would be just a easy "foot note"

I don't think so, one, Necron tomb worlds were awakened and would pose a problem because each could potentially have tens of millions of Necrons in each one. also the Tyranids are being billions, maybe even trillions strong would still pose a significant threat to the imperium. If they happened in the same time frame in the alternate timeline, the imperium would have to deal with Necrons and Tyranids simultaneously. I think an unbroken imperium of man with the strength of the original legions could defeat it but I don't think ti would be just a easy "foot note"

Not during the GC or the Heresy they weren't. This is a relatively recent event (as galactic history goes). With the Heresy having never happened, Mars would not have been double-fethed, so the technological level of the Imperium would not have been stunted. With the Heresy having never happened, who knows what STC technologies the Astartes Legions may have recovered in the 10,000 years between then and the modern era?

There, also, would have never been an Age of Apostasy.

at what level would that determination be made what kind of force would be dispatched? If there were multiple rebellions or if the rebelling faction controlled the gate, how would that be handled? The statement I was making was more along the lines of there would still be conflict and problems because the imperium would be too large to effectively govern from one government with or without the web way.

Whenever the Emperor foresees the need for it to happen. The guy foretells the future with unerring accuracy.

I don't think so, one, Necron tomb worlds were awakened and would pose a problem because each could potentially have tens of millions of Necrons in each one. also the Tyranids are being billions, maybe even trillions strong would still pose a significant threat to the imperium. If they happened in the same time frame in the alternate timeline, the imperium would have to deal with Necrons and Tyranids simultaneously. I think an unbroken imperium of man with the strength of the original legions could defeat it but I don't think ti would be just a easy "foot note"

But not to the Living God that is the Emperor. Or to 18 Primarchs with their Legions. The bugs would not know what hit them, assailed on all sides by Space Marines in Realspace, and the Hive Mind assailed in the Warp by the psychic might of the Emperor, of Malcador, of Magnus.

With the Heresy having never happened, the Imperium would likely rival the Eldar on a technological level... which means the Imperium would also rival the Necrons. The Tomb worlds are not awakening quickly enough, or in sufficient numbers, to stop a unified Imperium. It is stated in current fluff that, if the Imperium were permitted to focus its military might on one other faction, that other faction would be ended. That's the current Imperium. Now, imagine an Imperium that is still Great Crusade-era in might.

Just think about it. There's no Black Legion in the Eye. Sure, there's the occasional daemonic incursion, but it lacks the VotLW and all the Renegades that would later join it... it has comparatively fewer mortal servants. A single Legion of Astartes could hold the Cadian Gate... and that is assuming the Emperor or Malcador or Magnus or some other, as-yet-unknown Imperial luminary does not decipher the Cadian Pylons and simply ring the Eye with them, effectively trapping the daemonic within its boundaries.

The Eldar are not a threat... and, in fact, might be something of an ally. They wouldnt be moving among human worlds, of course, but they recognize the threat Humanity (the Emperor, specifically) is to Chaos, and would probably remain cooly-neutral to humans in most other cases.

The Tau wouldn't exist any more.

The Orks would be around, but they are a containable threat.

The Hrud don't exist in numbers sufficient to oppose a concerted effort to destroy them.

The other, minor Xenos races (Ioxatl, Kroot, Vespid, Barghesi, etc) likewise lack the numbers to be anything more than a bloody paste under the Imperium's boot.


...basically, a 40K in which the Heresy never happened is nothing like the current setting. This would be a Golden Age for humanity, with the AdMech guided by the intelligence of the Emperor, and the recovery of STC technology not a matter of "if" but of "when"... and "when" can come around pretty often in 10,000 when you're a unified empire.

I guess, assuming the omnipotence and omniscience of the Emperor, that is true. All speculation is irrelevant in that light. This thread should have had a one post response. What would have happened? The emperor (read cheat code), Mankind wins, discussion over.

 GKTiberius wrote:
I guess, assuming the omnipotence and omniscience of the Emperor, that is true. All speculation is irrelevant in that light. This thread should have had a one post response. What would have happened? The emperor (read cheat code), Mankind wins, discussion over.

That is, basically, 40K in a nutshell. The Heresy, and its effects, fethed Humanity sideways. All that is left for them is to fight, an in fighting delay the inevitable. These, the stories of modern 40k, are the tales of the End of Times.