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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Drop Pods are infinitely better than even Infiltrated Teleporter Homers, because you're not limited in where you can drop, other than really close to edges. You're also guaranteed to get half of them turn 1.
It's also only a guaranteed alpha strike if the enemy doesn't get first turn and wipes out your homers, something that can't happen to Drop Pods.
I understand your position, and partially agree. I just can't picture anyone taking the Grey Knights' unique detachment if they only get the reduced scatter on turn 2 or later.
Also, if Drop Pods are infinitely better than Infiltrator Teleport Homers, why are the Infiltrators OP, when Drop Pods are not?
Giving Strikes Infiltrate would be too much because it's perfect. You plonk your Strikes down during deployment, then T1 your Homers are usable. (with an army has a mass Deep Strike T1 Formation!)
Basically, it's too much of a point-and-click ability that allows for auto-removal of units.
Drop Pods can't use that trick on T1 because Marine Tely Homers only work for Terminator armoured units and thus they still risk scattering out of position. The Drop Pod locator beacons also won't take effect until T2, thus giving your opponent the ability to react to try to stop you.
They may still end up getting that perfect landing, but it's not 100% guaranteed like infiltrated Tely Homers can give.
Besides, with shunting Interceptors & Dreadknights, the Grey Knights are not lacking for speedy ways to get right in their opponent's face. If you also give Strikes the ability to bring in a bunch of Termies on top of your shunts, you may as well just shake hands at that point since few armies will be able to deal with 50-75% of an Grey Knight army jumping into their deployment zone before they can even so much as blink!
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Drop Pods are infinitely better than even Infiltrated Teleporter Homers, because you're not limited in where you can drop, other than really close to edges. You're also guaranteed to get half of them turn 1.
It's also only a guaranteed alpha strike if the enemy doesn't get first turn and wipes out your homers, something that can't happen to Drop Pods.
I understand your position, and partially agree. I just can't picture anyone taking the Grey Knights' unique detachment if they only get the reduced scatter on turn 2 or later.
Also, if Drop Pods are infinitely better than Infiltrator Teleport Homers, why are the Infiltrators OP, when Drop Pods are not?
Giving Strikes Infiltrate would be too much because it's perfect. You plonk your Strikes down during deployment, then T1 your Homers are usable. (with an army has a mass Deep Strike T1 Formation!)
Basically, it's too much of a point-and-click ability that allows for auto-removal of units.
Drop Pods can't use that trick on T1 because Marine Tely Homers only work for Terminator armoured units and thus they still risk scattering out of position. The Drop Pod locator beacons also won't take effect until T2, thus giving your opponent the ability to react to try to stop you.
They may still end up getting that perfect landing, but it's not 100% guaranteed like infiltrated Tely Homers can give.
Besides, with shunting Interceptors & Dreadknights, the Grey Knights are not lacking for speedy ways to get right in their opponent's face. If you also give Strikes the ability to bring in a bunch of Termies on top of your shunts, you may as well just shake hands at that point since few armies will be able to deal with 50-75% of an Grey Knight army jumping into their deployment zone before they can even so much as blink!
I disagree, Deep striking on a powered armor unit like this is pointless, they're not effective with deep strike. the counter to your hypothetical what if is always failing your reserve rolls, even scout with a homer is not a guarenteed thing. Not only that but its a very small area they have to cluster in, they have to hope they get turn one and dont die, etc etc.
Drop pods are superior in the fact that they keep scattering and just hit something and stop, no mishap with the potential to die automatically.
Giving Strike squads scout/infiltrate will not unbalance anything.
Giving Strikes Infiltrate would be too much because it's perfect. You plonk your Strikes down during deployment, then T1 your Homers are usable. (with an army has a mass Deep Strike T1 Formation!)
Basically, it's too much of a point-and-click ability that allows for auto-removal of units.
Drop Pods can't use that trick on T1 because Marine Tely Homers only work for Terminator armoured units and thus they still risk scattering out of position. The Drop Pod locator beacons also won't take effect until T2, thus giving your opponent the ability to react to try to stop you.
They may still end up getting that perfect landing, but it's not 100% guaranteed like infiltrated Tely Homers can give.
Besides, with shunting Interceptors & Dreadknights, the Grey Knights are not lacking for speedy ways to get right in their opponent's face. If you also give Strikes the ability to bring in a bunch of Termies on top of your shunts, you may as well just shake hands at that point since few armies will be able to deal with 50-75% of an Grey Knight army jumping into their deployment zone before they can even so much as blink!
I dissagree. Strike Squads are 110 points base, and can only get one special ranged weapon for every 5 models in the same unit, so a 5-man squad (who have nothing that improves their survivability beyond that of a 14 point marine), who took a only a Hammer and Psycannon (for a total of 135 points), only have 8 S4 shots and 4 S7 shots, at 24" and AP5-4 respectively. They're not going to erase enemy units off of the board. If the enemy deployed right, everything should have at least a 3+ armor save or5+ cover save anyway. So, 1/3 of the shooting will be lost on the to-hit, 1/2ish will be lost on the to-wound, and a nother 1/3-2/3 will be lost to the saves. That's statistically 0-1 unsaved wounds from the Storm Bolters, and 0-1 from the Psycannon. On the upper end of statistics, that's still only two casualties from the entire shooting of a 135 point squad.
Also they take up a Troop slot, the same as the Terminators, so if you're using the Grey Knights' unique detachment, you have to bring another HQ for every 4 Troops, which gets the points really high really quickly.
As for the concern of the Terminators arriving on turn 1 without scatter, they only have a 2/3 chance of coming in on that turn, and even if they do, they have exactly the same shooting as the Strike Squad. So if a squad of Terminators drop without scatter near every Strike Squad, that's still an average of only 4 wounds dealt to the enemy from their combined firepower. AND they can't assault on the turn they come in, so they can't bring the majority of their special rules or equipment into play until the enemy has shot them to pieces.
For all of the nice gadgets and rules the Grey Knights get, they are not one iota more survivable than the cheapest SM counterparts, and in some instances, they're even less so, due to the lack of optional wargear to improve Invulnerable Saves.
To put this into context, If I tried to break the game in an 1850 army (tournament standard for the USA), and decided to Infiltrate/Deep Strike everything
That leaves 60 points for other upgrades. And as I showed before, the sum total of their turn 1 shooting (assuming the Knights went first so the opponent couldn't wipe the Strike Squads, AND assuming all of the Terminators came in instead of the statistical 2-3) would only result in a whopping 16 standard infantry models killed, or considerably fewer if they tried to use those Psycannons on a vehicle. The Dreadknight's abilities would cause maybe another 4, but that wouldn't be effected by the proposed Infiltrate on Strike Squads. Every army I have faced in 7th edition is capable of that on turn 1, so it would not be "over powered" from the beginning. (And this is about as powerful a use of this ability as can be made)
Turn 2 would be interesting, as the Grey Knights would actually be able to get into close combat. Most games currently, the Grey Knights spend around 3 turns just getting most of the army to close combat, when the game is only 5-7 turns. If your concern is for armies who are worthless in close combat and don't have an over powered defense (Like Tau), which ones are those exactly? Most armies have speed or numbers, to prevent the Grey Knights from tying up their entire army in close combat. Even the IGuard "bubblewrap" their tanks with cheap infantry to protect them from assaulting Power-fists or Thunder Hammers.
And with Maelstrom missions, this type of army would drop down on objectives, and try to hold them against the enemy, which would be fair, because they don't have the manuverabilty of other armies, and (once again) the Grey Knights die just as quickly to any type of shooting as any other Space marine.
It would be powerful, and that would be reflected in the points, But it isn't over powered. If the Knights go first, they have 4 Strike Squads, and 3 terminator squads, plus the Librarian on the table turn 1. If they all deployed/DS as closely as they could to the enemy for the turn-2 Assault, then they are in range of every sing weapon in the enemy's army, right down to Melta-guns. Anything with AP1-2 will erase the Terminators, everything else will smear the Strike Squads out of existence through sheer number of shots, Whatever GK units are fortunate enough to survive, will assault, but in considerably fewer numbers than they started with.
The game is not friendly to Assault-based armies, and this would improve the GK viability as an assault based army. As it stands the Grey Knights start out outnumbered by everyone, then get shot to pieces for 2-3 turns, then assault with whatever's left into enemies which are sometimes just as good in close combat due to better Invulnerable saves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/11 17:16:23
How about telling us how many point you think a PAGK with force weapon is worth? Because they are priced at 20 each. Given that smurf and other CSM tactical marines pay 15 points for a power weapon on the 1A sergeant and can't get more in the squad to make it meaningful, how many points do you think your INSTANT DEATH MC slaying force weapon is worth? Vanguard Vets get +1A vs PAGK and cost 35 points each with a power weapon and take up an elite slot.
How many points is each power weapon worth to you on a 3+ T4 WS4 deep striking guy?
What about the instant death/force weapon bonus on top of that?
And how about that free Warp charge and ML1?
If you want to say "free" power weapons for all is worth an extra 2 points a model, I'm sure Khorne Berserks will sign up for that too, as will Orks. You want free infiltrate? Reroll on the Strategic Table and you have a 30% chance for 3 infiltrating units. You want it for free? So do 20 man Khorne Berserker squads and EVERY OTHER army. What are you giving up to get it? Nothing?
If you want to pass out free candy to your army, say so, but don't call it balance when you are "Buffing Grey Knights". But saying a built in force weapon isn't good because it's only on a 1A model, you are not fooling anyone but yourself. Try to look at it from the perspective of someone who is not setting up Grey Knights. There's a Tau guy who thinks they should be BS4 base with no apparent points increase. Do you agree with him or does that seem unbalanced? At least he doesn't call it "balancing".
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: How about telling us how many point you think a PAGK with force weapon is worth? Because they are priced at 20 each. Given that smurf and other CSM tactical marines pay 15 points for a power weapon on the 1A sergeant and can't get more in the squad to make it meaningful, how many points do you think your INSTANT DEATH MC slaying force weapon is worth? Vanguard Vets get +1A vs PAGK and cost 35 points each with a power weapon and take up an elite slot.
How many points is each power weapon worth to you on a 3+ T4 WS4 deep striking guy?
What about the instant death/force weapon bonus on top of that?
And how about that free Warp charge and ML1?
If you want to say "free" power weapons for all is worth an extra 2 points a model, I'm sure Khorne Berserks will sign up for that too, as will Orks. You want free infiltrate? Reroll on the Strategic Table and you have a 30% chance for 3 infiltrating units. You want it for free? So do 20 man Khorne Berserker squads and EVERY OTHER army. What are you giving up to get it? Nothing?
If you want to pass out free candy to your army, say so, but don't call it balance when you are "Buffing Grey Knights". But saying a built in force weapon isn't good because it's only on a 1A model, you are not fooling anyone but yourself. Try to look at it from the perspective of someone who is not setting up Grey Knights. There's a Tau guy who thinks they should be BS4 base with no apparent points increase. Do you agree with him or does that seem unbalanced? At least he doesn't call it "balancing".
Force Weapons, Psyk-out nades, and HH on basic dudes together are worth no more than 3 points.
Being able to cause ID is worthless 95% of the time. So really its just a power weapon and a psychic power. Its paid for by not having in-faction access to melta guns and other reliable anti-tank/AA outside of a Flyer.
When something is worthless 95% of the time, you should get it for free because you are basically paying a fluff tax.
GKs pay for getting FWs cheap because they have very limited options for other things. No reliable anti-tank outside of melee and no AA outside of our own Flyer.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Force Weapons, Psyk-out nades, and HH on basic dudes together are worth no more than 3 points.
Being able to cause ID is worthless 95% of the time. So really its just a power weapon and a psychic power. Its paid for by not having in-faction access to melta guns and other reliable anti-tank/AA outside of a Flyer.
When something is worthless 95% of the time, you should get it for free because you are basically paying a fluff tax.
GKs pay for getting FWs cheap because they have very limited options for other things. No reliable anti-tank outside of melee and no AA outside of our own Flyer.
Wow. Just. Wow. If 3 point force weapons are justified because they have "very limited options" - how much more should they cost is they "have other options" like scouting/infiltrating?
Also, Every ork player will take nothing but boys and some AV if you give them 3 point force weapons.
3 points....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 17:34:08
Force Weapons, Psyk-out nades, and HH on basic dudes together are worth no more than 3 points.
Being able to cause ID is worthless 95% of the time. So really its just a power weapon and a psychic power. Its paid for by not having in-faction access to melta guns and other reliable anti-tank/AA outside of a Flyer.
When something is worthless 95% of the time, you should get it for free because you are basically paying a fluff tax.
GKs pay for getting FWs cheap because they have very limited options for other things. No reliable anti-tank outside of melee and no AA outside of our own Flyer.
Wow. Just. Wow. If 3 point force weapons are justified because they have "very limited options" - how much more should they cost is they "have other options" like scouting/infiltrating?
Also, Every ork player will take nothing but boys and some AV if you give them 3 point force weapons.
3 points....
Orks aren't occupying a design space where they have limited options but everyone gets Force weapons.
GKs are.
Deal with it!
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Giving Strikes Infiltrate would be too much because it's perfect. You plonk your Strikes down during deployment, then T1 your Homers are usable. (with an army has a mass Deep Strike T1 Formation!)
Basically, it's too much of a point-and-click ability that allows for auto-removal of units.
Drop Pods can't use that trick on T1 because Marine Tely Homers only work for Terminator armoured units and thus they still risk scattering out of position. The Drop Pod locator beacons also won't take effect until T2, thus giving your opponent the ability to react to try to stop you.
They may still end up getting that perfect landing, but it's not 100% guaranteed like infiltrated Tely Homers can give.
Besides, with shunting Interceptors & Dreadknights, the Grey Knights are not lacking for speedy ways to get right in their opponent's face. If you also give Strikes the ability to bring in a bunch of Termies on top of your shunts, you may as well just shake hands at that point since few armies will be able to deal with 50-75% of an Grey Knight army jumping into their deployment zone before they can even so much as blink!
Spoiler:
I dissagree. Strike Squads are 110 points base, and can only get one special ranged weapon for every 5 models in the same unit, so a 5-man squad (who have nothing that improves their survivability beyond that of a 14 point marine), who took a only a Hammer and Psycannon (for a total of 135 points), only have 8 S4 shots and 4 S7 shots, at 24" and AP5-4 respectively. They're not going to erase enemy units off of the board. If the enemy deployed right, everything should have at least a 3+ armor save or5+ cover save anyway. So, 1/3 of the shooting will be lost on the to-hit, 1/2ish will be lost on the to-wound, and a nother 1/3-2/3 will be lost to the saves. That's statistically 0-1 unsaved wounds from the Storm Bolters, and 0-1 from the Psycannon. On the upper end of statistics, that's still only two casualties from the entire shooting of a 135 point squad.
Also they take up a Troop slot, the same as the Terminators, so if you're using the Grey Knights' unique detachment, you have to bring another HQ for every 4 Troops, which gets the points really high really quickly.
As for the concern of the Terminators arriving on turn 1 without scatter, they only have a 2/3 chance of coming in on that turn, and even if they do, they have exactly the same shooting as the Strike Squad. So if a squad of Terminators drop without scatter near every Strike Squad, that's still an average of only 4 wounds dealt to the enemy from their combined firepower. AND they can't assault on the turn they come in, so they can't bring the majority of their special rules or equipment into play until the enemy has shot them to pieces.
For all of the nice gadgets and rules the Grey Knights get, they are not one iota more survivable than the cheapest SM counterparts, and in some instances, they're even less so, due to the lack of optional wargear to improve Invulnerable Saves.
To put this into context, If I tried to break the game in an 1850 army (tournament standard for the USA), and decided to Infiltrate/Deep Strike everything
That leaves 60 points for other upgrades. And as I showed before, the sum total of their turn 1 shooting (assuming the Knights went first so the opponent couldn't wipe the Strike Squads, AND assuming all of the Terminators came in instead of the statistical 2-3) would only result in a whopping 16 standard infantry models killed, or considerably fewer if they tried to use those Psycannons on a vehicle. The Dreadknight's abilities would cause maybe another 4, but that wouldn't be effected by the proposed Infiltrate on Strike Squads. Every army I have faced in 7th edition is capable of that on turn 1, so it would not be "over powered" from the beginning. (And this is about as powerful a use of this ability as can be made)
Turn 2 would be interesting, as the Grey Knights would actually be able to get into close combat. Most games currently, the Grey Knights spend around 3 turns just getting most of the army to close combat, when the game is only 5-7 turns. If your concern is for armies who are worthless in close combat and don't have an over powered defense (Like Tau), which ones are those exactly? Most armies have speed or numbers, to prevent the Grey Knights from tying up their entire army in close combat. Even the IGuard "bubblewrap" their tanks with cheap infantry to protect them from assaulting Power-fists or Thunder Hammers.
And with Maelstrom missions, this type of army would drop down on objectives, and try to hold them against the enemy, which would be fair, because they don't have the manuverabilty of other armies, and (once again) the Grey Knights die just as quickly to any type of shooting as any other Space marine.
It would be powerful, and that would be reflected in the points, But it isn't over powered. If the Knights go first, they have 4 Strike Squads, and 3 terminator squads, plus the Librarian on the table turn 1. If they all deployed/DS as closely as they could to the enemy for the turn-2 Assault, then they are in range of every sing weapon in the enemy's army, right down to Melta-guns. Anything with AP1-2 will erase the Terminators, everything else will smear the Strike Squads out of existence through sheer number of shots, Whatever GK units are fortunate enough to survive, will assault, but in considerably fewer numbers than they started with.
The game is not friendly to Assault-based armies, and this would improve the GK viability as an assault based army. As it stands the Grey Knights start out outnumbered by everyone, then get shot to pieces for 2-3 turns, then assault with whatever's left into enemies which are sometimes just as good in close combat due to better Invulnerable saves.
Try making it an actual competitive list though, such as something based around:
Libby w/Lv3 + Book (Psy Shriek + 3 rolls on Santic)
Libby w/Lv3 (Telepathy)
5 Strikes w/Homer, MC Hammer
5 Strikes w/Homer, MC Hammer
5 Terms w/Psycannon, Halberds
5 Terms w/Psycannon, Halberds
10 'Ceptors w/2x Incinerator
2 Dreadknights w/Sword, Heavy Psycannon, PT.
With infiltrate possible, that's 3 shunting units T1 plus a 66% chance of a pair of Termies landing right in your opponent's face. That's a good deal of insta hurt with 0 risk. The only "defense" an opponent has is quite literally "don't go last!"
Sure it's not 100% guaranteed to work every single game, but when the GK's do first with hypothetical Infiltrating Strikes, it almost certainly makes for a very lackluster game where one person isn't going to have much fun.
Scout at least stops the Deep Strikers from being right on top of opponents before they can actually react in any way. It'd still be a really good boost and likely make Strikes compete right alongside Termies, just without going completely overboard.
Have you considered that the strike squad might not be the problem here? I mean the infiltrate and scout idea is fine and not terribly OP from a rules standpoint, but it doesn't fit with the Grey Knight theme. Grey Knights never struck me force that sneaks around to get into a better position.
Honestly, I feel that the main issue holding strike squads back is their delivery system, namely rhinos and razorbacks. I know we're talking about changing the codex, but this just seems to be a recurring issue whenever there's an assault based unit. Banshees? worthless. Khorne Berserkers? worthless too. Strikes are the same way. But all these units could be fixed if tweaks were made to the transport rules. I mean, for 35 points, you'd be able to buy a rhino that can move flat out turn one, the enemy still has an entire turn to deal with it and the squad inside before the they get out and assault during their next turn. I don't think that sounds overpowered, and it opens the door for all these CC oriented units.
Honestly, 20 points for a grey knight isn't bad. for six points you are making a space marine a psyker (kind of), and giving him a force weapon and a better gun. It's not bad, but the only problem is that most of those benefits only take place in combat and it sucks because it's hard to get into combat.
Now we could look in our BRB and tack on this USR and that USR in an attempt to make strike squads better, but it's ultimately just a way to cope with the fact that rules for transports are poorly constructed.
I know I don't play grey knights, but after reading their codex, seem like a fairly balanced army, with the exception of anti flyer as I mentioned in an earlier post. The only thing holding them back now is the actual rules themselves.
Try making it an actual competitive list though, such as something based around:
Libby w/Lv3 + Book (Psy Shriek + 3 rolls on Santic)
Libby w/Lv3 (Telepathy)
5 Strikes w/Homer, MC Hammer
5 Strikes w/Homer, MC Hammer
5 Terms w/Psycannon, Halberds
5 Terms w/Psycannon, Halberds
10 'Ceptors w/2x Incinerator
2 Dreadknights w/Sword, Heavy Psycannon, PT.
With infiltrate possible, that's 3 shunting units T1 plus a 66% chance of a pair of Termies landing right in your opponent's face. That's a good deal of insta hurt with 0 risk. The only "defense" an opponent has is quite literally "don't go last!"
Sure it's not 100% guaranteed to work every single game, but when the GK's do first with hypothetical Infiltrating Strikes, it almost certainly makes for a very lackluster game where one person isn't going to have much fun.
Scout at least stops the Deep Strikers from being right on top of opponents before they can actually react in any way. It'd still be a really good boost and likely make Strikes compete right alongside Termies, just without going completely overboard.
2 Strike Squads infiltrating means you're limited to two points of arrival. I assume the Terminators and Librarians are Deep Striking. Are the Dreadknights and Infiltrators doing the same? If so those are going to be very crowded arrival zones, and blasts/templates will rip you to pieces. If the Interceptors and Dreadknights shunt into battle instead, then they aren't even using the proposed rule.
If the GK's opponent goes first, they'll shoot their 1850 point list into your two Strike Squads, and they only have to kill the Justicar to prevent that unit from reducing DS scatter. If those two units are killed off of the board and you aren't shunting the Dreadknights/Interceptors in, then you've lost the game on turn 1. If you are shunting the Dreadknights/Interceptors in, they can still shoot everything into the Strike Squads to prevent them from having the chance to use their homers.
If the GK player goes first, and everything Deep Strikes, (combat-squaded Interceptors), he has 6 units coming in on a 2/3 chance, meaning 4 arrivals. If we assume those to be the 4 best Deep Striking units (Terminators and Dreadknights), they arrive, take the Interceptor shots, then get to shoot and run, but can't charge.
Now, if we assume you fire everything on standard power armor Space Marines, The two Heavy Psycannons and the two regular Psycannons have a total of 20 Str7 shots. 2/3 will hit (13 hits), 5/6 of them will wound (8 regular Wounds, 2 Rending), After a 2/3 Armor save you're left with approximately 5 unsaved wounds.
The 18 Storm Bolters will have 36 shots, 24 hits, 12 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds.
For a grand total of 9 unsaved wounds from the entire army on turn 1. Then the entire enemy army gets to shoot back (minus nine dudes).
There is risk. It's not insta-hurt. And the opponent has plenty of chance to hurt back.
Now, if we assume you fire everything on standard power armor Space Marines,
And what about anyone with T3 and a 5+ save instead of 3+? They get precisely 0 armor saves. Poof go guardians, pathfinders, IG vets. There's a ton of instant death in there too vs T3. Even if you were playing marines, who is worried about regular power armor marines on T1? You target the special weapons, the power fists, the heavy weapons, the tanks and the alpha strike capability of the enemy on T1, not the Objective holders. You also ignored the Prescience rerolls, the ability of those marines to throw krak grenades, frag grenades and the fact they that'll carve any 3+ saves in CC on T2 guaranteed.
ironhammer2194 wrote: Have you considered that the strike squad might not be the problem here? I mean the infiltrate and scout idea is fine and not terribly OP from a rules standpoint, but it doesn't fit with the Grey Knight theme. Grey Knights never struck me force that sneaks around to get into a better position.
Honestly, I feel that the main issue holding strike squads back is their delivery system, namely rhinos and razorbacks. I know we're talking about changing the codex, but this just seems to be a recurring issue whenever there's an assault based unit. Banshees? worthless. Khorne Berserkers? worthless too. Strikes are the same way. But all these units could be fixed if tweaks were made to the transport rules. I mean, for 35 points, you'd be able to buy a rhino that can move flat out turn one, the enemy still has an entire turn to deal with it and the squad inside before the they get out and assault during their next turn. I don't think that sounds overpowered, and it opens the door for all these CC oriented units.
Honestly, 20 points for a grey knight isn't bad. for six points you are making a space marine a psyker (kind of), and giving him a force weapon and a better gun. It's not bad, but the only problem is that most of those benefits only take place in combat and it sucks because it's hard to get into combat.
Now we could look in our BRB and tack on this USR and that USR in an attempt to make strike squads better, but it's ultimately just a way to cope with the fact that rules for transports are poorly constructed.
I know I don't play grey knights, but after reading their codex, seem like a fairly balanced army, with the exception of anti flyer as I mentioned in an earlier post. The only thing holding them back now is the actual rules themselves.
I'd still say that Strikes could go down a couple ppm without breaking the game.
As for changing the vehicle, I think the only way to really fix it is assault vehicles can move and allow the unit to disembark/assault, but regular vehicles can't move for the disembarking unit to assault when it gets out. Let both kinds of vehicles to allow the unit to assault if it's been wrecked/exploded and it's pretty much fixed without making assault vehicles worse than regular vehicles.
Now, if we assume you fire everything on standard power armor Space Marines,
And what about anyone with T3 and a 5+ save instead of 3+? They get precisely 0 armor saves. Poof go guardians, pathfinders, IG vets. There's a ton of instant death in there too vs T3. Even if you were playing marines, who is worried about regular power armor marines on T1? You target the special weapons, the power fists, the heavy weapons, the tanks and the alpha strike capability of the enemy on T1, not the Objective holders. You also ignored the Prescience rerolls, the ability of those marines to throw krak grenades, frag grenades and the fact they that'll carve any 3+ saves in CC on T2 guaranteed.
Models with worse saves are cheap and bring more bodies instead. I'm not trying to quibble too much about it, but 100 points of Guard brings more models than 100 points of GK.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/11 22:15:22
As for changing the vehicle, I think the only way to really fix it is assault vehicles can move and allow the unit to disembark/assault, but regular vehicles can't move for the disembarking unit to assault when it gets out. Let both kinds of vehicles to allow the unit to assault if it's been wrecked/exploded and it's pretty much fixed without making assault vehicles worse than regular vehicles.
I completely agree. That is exactly the way vehicles should be, and if strike squads still aren't cost effective after that, then I'd also agree that they need is to be fewer points.
I really, really wish people would stop with the "GK get Power Weapons for only 6 PPM OMGWTFBBQ" posts. There's a diminishing return of piling on more killing power on frail platforms, and there's an opportunity cost in that there aren't any cheap objective-camping options. Further, the 1A 20 PPM Strike Squad Knights aren't going to be rolling through any serious melee unit anyway, Force Weapons or not. Comparing them to Vanguard Veterans is disingenious; no one competetive takes Vanguard Veterans with Power Weapons anyway. Compare them to Honour Guard, who are a decent melee unit at 25 PPM, and the Knights suddenly don't seem so undercosted.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: I really, really wish people would stop with the "GK get Power Weapons for only 6 PPM OMGWTFBBQ" posts. There's a diminishing return of piling on more killing power on frail platforms, and there's an opportunity cost in that there aren't any cheap objective-camping options. Further, the 1A 20 PPM Strike Squad Knights aren't going to be rolling through any serious melee unit anyway, Force Weapons or not. Comparing them to Vanguard Veterans is disingenious; no one competetive takes Vanguard Veterans with Power Weapons anyway. Compare them to Honour Guard, who are a decent melee unit at 25 PPM, and the Knights suddenly don't seem so undercosted.
People will stop "complaining about it" when the call for "Balance" does away with it. We're not saying they are under costed in the codex, just pointing out they are NOT over costed as some GK players say.
For that "6 point" power weapon, they also get instant death, and Psykers, free warp charge, better leadership built in, deep strike, etc. As for trade offs, if you want a cheap objective holder, just park a DT on it empty. You get a 35 point rhino that can hold objectives cheaply, as good as SM and better than most other armies. My Eldar would love a 35 point transfer option and CSM aside, no other codex can take 18 Objective Secured units.
Vanguard Vets with power weapons aren't taken competitively because... vanguard vets pay 15 points per power weapon, NOT 6, and vie with Sternguard and Dreadnaughts in the Elite slots. You'd see plenty if they had free force weapons, even in the Elite slot, even if you drop them to 1 attack. An Ironclad is great too, but it's not a troop choice so the comparison you make doesn't make sense.
Honor guard are also not Troop Choices and require a Chapter Master monobuild tax, so again, I don't know why you'd compare them to a troop choice. That's being disingenuous. HG'd be great as troops, like Riptide riding a Wave Serpent for 200 points great, as in super OP OMGWTFBBQSAUCE broken. If you think your PAGK troops cost too much, lobby for the option to take generic SM without the GK bonuses instead. Or take allies and a cheap libbie as your Justicar or whatever.
If you want to Balance them, call for Balance. If you want to Buff them, admit it and no one will care to push back as much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 00:34:22
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Instant death is useless unless your targets have multiple wounds or FnP. Stop saying its worth something on models with one attack
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I really, really wish people would stop with the "GK get Power Weapons for only 6 PPM OMGWTFBBQ" posts. There's a diminishing return of piling on more killing power on frail platforms, and there's an opportunity cost in that there aren't any cheap objective-camping options. Further, the 1A 20 PPM Strike Squad Knights aren't going to be rolling through any serious melee unit anyway, Force Weapons or not. Comparing them to Vanguard Veterans is disingenious; no one competetive takes Vanguard Veterans with Power Weapons anyway. Compare them to Honour Guard, who are a decent melee unit at 25 PPM, and the Knights suddenly don't seem so undercosted.
People will stop "complaining about it" when the call for "Balance" does away with it. We're not saying they are under costed in the codex, just pointing out they are NOT over costed as some GK players say.
For that "6 point" power weapon, they also get instant death, and Psykers, free warp charge, better leadership built in, deep strike, etc. As for trade offs, if you want a cheap objective holder, just park a DT on it empty. You get a 35 point rhino that can hold objectives cheaply, as good as SM and better than most other armies. My Eldar would love a 35 point transfer option and CSM aside, no other codex can take 18 Objective Secured units.
Vanguard Vets with power weapons aren't taken competitively because... vanguard vets pay 15 points per power weapon, NOT 6, and vie with Sternguard and Dreadnaughts in the Elite slots. You'd see plenty if they had free force weapons, even in the Elite slot, even if you drop them to 1 attack. An Ironclad is great too, but it's not a troop choice so the comparison you make doesn't make sense.
Honor guard are also not Troop Choices and require a Chapter Master monobuild tax, so again, I don't know why you'd compare them to a troop choice. That's being disingenuous. HG'd be great as troops, like Riptide riding a Wave Serpent for 200 points great, as in super OP OMGWTFBBQSAUCE broken. If you think your PAGK troops cost too much, lobby for the option to take generic SM without the GK bonuses instead. Or take allies and a cheap libbie as your Justicar or whatever.
If you want to Balance them, call for Balance. If you want to Buff them, admit it and no one will care to push back as much.
Well said. You took the words right out of my mouth.
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VV also have twice as many attacks, get the 2 CCW bonus for free, and have choice of power weapon. That is why they pay 15 pts.
GKSS only get a sword for those points, have only one attack, and only get the 2 CCW bonus if they take a specific upgrade for four extra points. And ap2 is ten freaking points.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: VV also have twice as many attacks, get the 2 CCW bonus for free, and have choice of power weapon. That is why they pay 15 pts.
GKSS only get a sword for those points, have only one attack, and only get the 2 CCW bonus if they take a specific upgrade for four extra points. And ap2 is ten freaking points.
They're also less mobile to boot (since VV get Jump Packs).
And we've discussed the fact before that Chapter Tactics are completely free (just like other army special rules) meaning at least two of their rules are basically free because they're "fluff rules". So complaining they exist is silly.
And none of their special rules make them more durable in combat. They ignore 3+ saves, sure, but they fight and die like basic Marines. And last I knew, there was much lamenting about how bad Basic Marines are at not being dead in the current meta meaning if anything they're overcosted, as is all 3+ armor saves (I still think Basic Sisters should be 10ppm for instance).
Now, if we assume you fire everything on standard power armor Space Marines,
And what about anyone with T3 and a 5+ save instead of 3+? They get precisely 0 armor saves. Poof go guardians, pathfinders, IG vets. There's a ton of instant death in there too vs T3. Even if you were playing marines, who is worried about regular power armor marines on T1? You target the special weapons, the power fists, the heavy weapons, the tanks and the alpha strike capability of the enemy on T1, not the Objective holders. You also ignored the Prescience rerolls, the ability of those marines to throw krak grenades, frag grenades and the fact they that'll carve any 3+ saves in CC on T2 guaranteed.
Models with worse saves are cheap and bring more bodies instead. I'm not trying to quibble too much about it, but 100 points of Guard brings more models than 100 points of GK.
Good points ClockworkZion. Also, if any Veteran squad is sitting around with 5+ armor and no cover save they aren't being played right. They have a 10 point upgrade that gives them +1 to Cover Saves, (6+ in the open, 4+ in generic area terrain or partially obscured by an intervening unit, 3+ in ruins, 2+ in bolstered ruins). It only costs 80 points to give Veterans a Flamer and "Forward Sentries" so all ten of them can sit in ruins for their 3+ Cover Save. The Pathfinders and Guardians have similar options to defend themselves.
RAWR....., I would also add that the Grey Knights can't "pick out" the special weapons or characters for their shooting attacks. Anyone who puts their special weapons at the front of the unit only have themselves to blame, because wounds are allocated to the closest models first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 02:02:33
Now, if we assume you fire everything on standard power armor Space Marines,
And what about anyone with T3 and a 5+ save instead of 3+? They get precisely 0 armor saves. Poof go guardians, pathfinders, IG vets. There's a ton of instant death in there too vs T3. Even if you were playing marines, who is worried about regular power armor marines on T1? You target the special weapons, the power fists, the heavy weapons, the tanks and the alpha strike capability of the enemy on T1, not the Objective holders. You also ignored the Prescience rerolls, the ability of those marines to throw krak grenades, frag grenades and the fact they that'll carve any 3+ saves in CC on T2 guaranteed.
Models with worse saves are cheap and bring more bodies instead. I'm not trying to quibble too much about it, but 100 points of Guard brings more models than 100 points of GK.
Good points ClockworkZion. Also, if any Veteran squad is sitting around with 5+ armor and no cover save they aren't being played right. They have a 10 point upgrade that gives them +1 to Cover Saves, (6+ in the open, 4+ in generic area terrain or partially obscured by an intervening unit, 3+ in ruins, 2+ in bolstered ruins. The same goes for Pathfinders and Guardians.
RAWR....., I would also add that the Grey Knights can't "pick out" the special weapons or characters for their shooting attacks. Anyone who puts their special weapons at the front of the unit only have themselves to blame, because wounds are allocated to the closest models first.
To add to that, Guard have an order that gives Percision Shots, so they CAN pick out models.
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: . You'd see plenty if they had free force weapons, even in the Elite slot, even if you drop them to 1 attack.
No. No you wouldn't. They'd still be awful.
Second this. Force Weapons aren't THAT great when all is said and done. Yes they help, but honestly the way they work this edition makes them less handy. You can't just activate them after you know you've done wounds, you have to do it before you may even be in combat, making it kind of obvious what units to avoid or focus fire on to prevent from engaging if they failed to engage on their turn.
Most commonly it's only use will be to deny FnP saves, but the models who are getting those will typically outnumber the Grey Knights anyways and can win through attrition alone.
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: . You'd see plenty if they had free force weapons, even in the Elite slot, even if you drop them to 1 attack.
No. No you wouldn't. They'd still be awful.
Second this. Force Weapons aren't THAT great when all is said and done. Yes they help, but honestly the way they work this edition makes them less handy. You can't just activate them after you know you've done wounds, you have to do it before you may even be in combat, making it kind of obvious what units to avoid or focus fire on to prevent from engaging if they failed to engage on their turn.
Most commonly it's only use will be to deny FnP saves, but the models who are getting those will typically outnumber the Grey Knights anyways and can win through attrition alone.
If they are not great, why not propose removing them from the PAGK entirely and drop them by the 2 points a model you seem to think it is worth? Even without the force rule, I'd love a 2 point per model power weapon option on my troops. I'd view them as more than a plasma gun, a plasma cannon and 4 ablative wounds per combat squad if so (plus the MB serg).
Point wise, what do you think +1 leadership is worth?
How about each power weapon? Remember that regular troop choice squads pay 15 each and are limited to just the 1 on a sergeant.
How about a ML1 psyker? (which is ML2 when you combat squad, for warp charge purposes).
How about Deep Strike?
How about a T1 option on that Deep Strike?
I think those are the questions you need to answer for anyone who is not a GK player to take you seriously as "Balancing" vs. "Buffing" aka "Grey Knights+1"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/13 20:54:24
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: . You'd see plenty if they had free force weapons, even in the Elite slot, even if you drop them to 1 attack.
No. No you wouldn't. They'd still be awful.
Second this. Force Weapons aren't THAT great when all is said and done. Yes they help, but honestly the way they work this edition makes them less handy. You can't just activate them after you know you've done wounds, you have to do it before you may even be in combat, making it kind of obvious what units to avoid or focus fire on to prevent from engaging if they failed to engage on their turn.
Most commonly it's only use will be to deny FnP saves, but the models who are getting those will typically outnumber the Grey Knights anyways and can win through attrition alone.
If they are not great, why not propose removing them from the PAGK entirely and drop them by the 2 points a model you seem to think it is worth? Even without the force rule, I'd love a 2 point per model power weapon option on my troops. I'd view them as more than a plasma gun, a plasma cannon and 4 ablative wounds per combat squad if so (plus the MB serg).
Point wise, what do you think +1 leadership is worth?
How about each power weapon? Remember that regular troop choice squads pay 15 each and are limited to just the 1 on a sergeant.
How about a ML1 psyker? (which is ML2 when you combat squad, for warp charge purposes).
How about Deep Strike?
How about a T1 option on that Deep Strike?
I think those are the questions you need to answer for anyone who is not a GK player to take you seriously as "Balancing" vs. "Buffing" aka "Grey Knights+1"
I never said that Force Weapons were worth two points. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said the durability of the PAGK means that you can essentually knock two points off their cost because despite a slightly increased threat in close combat, they die like regular Marines to everything. And if regular Marines are considered too weak in this meta of AP3 and AP2 everywhere, then PAGK are definitely too weak to cost 20ppm.
ML1, Daemon Hunter and Deep Strike are fluff rules. GW doesn't cost those. If they did we'd see points costs for Chapter Tactics, and Imperial Guard orders.
And the T1 Deep Strike requires a specific formation that trades Objective Secured for the rule (and had different FOC limits).
So the only things I think they're realistically being charged for is the Force Weapon, the +1Ld and swapping Bolters for Storm Bolters (but then getting a slight reduction for no Bolt Pistols).
And honestly they still feel too expensive because these additions don't make PAGK more durable. They die the same as Marines to the same things regular Marines do, they just get a little more teeth in close combat (assuming they ever get there).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 02:35:46
If we can pick any rules we want for chapter tactics, sign me up for free Lascannons on my tacticals instead of GK force weapons and Storm shields instead of ML1. If that sounds absurd, think about how absurd free force weapons and ML sound to others as your "chapter tactics". I think the average value of a chapter tactic is closer to a 5+ deny the witch and something like reroll to wound on daemons.
Here's my questions again in case you missed them and aren't ignoring them deliberately.
Point wise, what do you think +1 leadership is worth?
How about each power weapon? Remember that regular troop choice squads pay 15 each and are limited to just the 1 on a sergeant.
How about a ML1 psyker? (which is ML2 when you combat squad, for warp charge purposes).
How about Deep Strike?
How about a T1 option on that Deep Strike?
I think those are the questions GK "Balancers" need to answer for anyone who is not a GK player to take them seriously as "Balancing" vs. "Buffing" aka "Grey Knights+1"
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: If we can pick any rules we want for chapter tactics, sign me up for free Lascannons on my tacticals instead of GK force weapons and Storm shields instead of ML1. If that sounds absurd, think about how absurd free force weapons and ML sound to others as your "chapter tactics". I think the average value of a chapter tactic is closer to a 5+ deny the witch and something like reroll to wound on daemons.
You're not being witty, so cut it out. I mentioned Orders too, as they are a large list of rules and Guard doesn't have to pay for them, they can't be countered and they're more reliable than Psychic Powers to get off.
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote: Here's my questions again in case you missed them and aren't ignoring them deliberately.
Point wise, what do you think +1 leadership is worth? Not that much honestly. Maybe a point or two tops.
How about each power weapon? Remember that regular troop choice squads pay 15 each and are limited to just the 1 on a sergeant. If you charged Grey Knights 15 points base for their force weapons your PAGK would cost over over 30ppm. They're overcosted a bit at 20ppm, 30ppm would mean they never leave people's carrying cases.
How about a ML1 psyker? (which is ML2 when you combat squad, for warp charge purposes). This is a core part of Grey Knights and who they are. I don't think this costs them anything as I've said. It's basically a chapter tactic for them, and it's definitely a fluff rule. And GW usually doesn't put points on fluff rules (that is, if you actually pay attention to their books)
How about Deep Strike? For Grey Knights? Outside of Terminator Armor and Jump Packs where it's part of the cost? Also a fluff rule. No cost. Again, it's a key part of their fluff to teleport into the heart of where a daemonic incursion is, so it just makes sense.
How about a T1 option on that Deep Strike? Like the last two I already addressed this, no cost, it's part of a force Org that trades Objective Secured for their teleport rule.
I think those are the questions GK "Balancers" need to answer for anyone who is not a GK player to take them seriously as "Balancing" vs. "Buffing" aka "Grey Knights+1"
Most of those I already answered, but you ignored because you didn't like the answer I guess. Try reading this time and stop wasting people's time with copy/past posts.
You somehow seem to think that ML+force weapon+storm bolters are worth less than 6 points a head.
ML is 25 point out there, even if fixed powers is worth only 15 thats still 3 points each for your 5 man team.
Storm bolters cost people 5 points usually. not a good buy, but that's the price, I'd say they are at least two points, maybe three.
Force weapons? the closest comparison is power weapons that most units in the game pay 15 points just for them. sure that's usually too much, and nobody WOULD get it at 15 points for his marines, but even at 5-you bet you'll see alot more of them around.
I'll ignore the grenades, as they are situational enough.
You claim that strike squads are overcosted at 20 ppm, but under every possible comparison they are UNDERcosted, and the only reason people "don't get them", is that the GK codex is blessed with 33 points troop terminators that keep their grenades, meaning an 13 point upgrade to get 2+ instead of 3+, pile on another attack, 5++ and relentless on top of that, and otherwise keeping the same gear.
And that 13 point upgrade? is a no-brainer. there is simply no excuse NOT to unless it blocked out another choice you want. and not just with strikes, but with any PA unit in the game that trade would have been a no-brainer.
For comparison, for codex marines is will be like buying terminators that are armed with bolter and chainsword as 27 point troops. its a good unit.
The 6 points for the BoP, force swords, storm bolters and psyk grenades is an upgrade ANY marine player of ANY codex will make (assuming PoS, aegis, PE demons and DS are all the chapter tactics-and that's unquestionably the best "chapter tactics" out there.) but the only reason GK players dont take then is that the 13 point upgrade to terminators is ALSO an upgrade any marine player will take given the chance.
You claim X is bad because Y is better, that's just absurd. at the absence of GK termies as troops, the strike squads were considered amazing. its the troop squad every marine player of any codex, be it codex marines, chaos marine, wolves or the two angels-wished he had.
They are not bad, they are not even decent-they are GOOD, but overshadowed by what is probably the most cost-efficient troop unit in the entire game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/14 16:17:19
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
You somehow seem to think that ML+force weapon+storm bolters are worth less than 6 points a head.
That's because it is. You're assuming that Tactical Marines are fine at 14 PPM. They're not.
Not just that, they're failing to discount the loss of a bolt pistol (and it's extra attacks) as well as insisting on adding in things that don't cost points on basic models. Wyches don't pay for Combat Drugs for instance.
And even if GW was charging points for the ML, they'd spread it out over the cost of the unit, not the basic models (something else that's being ignored), because the unit acts as a single psyker.
So yeah, the claims that GKSS models are undercosted are ridiculious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/14 19:36:24
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 