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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 11:06:28
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne
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vipoid wrote: Clefty wrote:Do Grey Knights need more Internal Balance? Or External Balance? If the answer is internal Balance, amend the codex within your group yeah?
The easiest way, would be to give Grey Knights all of the Chapter Space Marine options.
And Codex One-upmanship rises again.
Agreed, they just want to be codex space marines + extras for the same costs...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 11:13:53
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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total0 wrote: vipoid wrote: Clefty wrote:Do Grey Knights need more Internal Balance? Or External Balance? If the answer is internal Balance, amend the codex within your group yeah?
The easiest way, would be to give Grey Knights all of the Chapter Space Marine options.
And Codex One-upmanship rises again.
Agreed, they just want to be codex space marines + extras for the same costs...
I'd add some sort of comment about reading the thread, but it's clearly wasted.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 11:19:08
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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total0 wrote: Clefty wrote:Do Grey Knights need more Internal Balance? Or External Balance? If the answer is internal Balance, amend the codex within your group yeah?
The easiest way, would be to give Grey Knights all of the Chapter Space Marine options.
 what would be the point of playing vanilla marines then?
Chapter Tactics, fluff, lower point cost, cost-efficient Dreadnoughts, access to formations we do not.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 11:48:33
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne
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Pe daemons is most likely your chaprer tactics.
Matt ward killed the fluff so needed re doing
You dont deserve point reductions due to the gear you're eqiped with
You have uber cheap dredknights
Uber cheap librarian
And you have 2 formations just like orks for example
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 12:03:20
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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total0 wrote:Pe daemons is most likely your chaprer tactics.
Matt ward killed the fluff so needed re doing
You dont deserve point reductions due to the gear you're eqiped with
You have uber cheap dredknights
Uber cheap librarian
And you have 2 formations just like orks for example
By that logic, TH/ SS Terminators should be something like 70 points. 25 points for Terminator Armour, 30 points for TH, 15 points for Storm Shield, and that's not taking any of the statline into consideration. Do you see why this sort of approach is silly now?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 12:15:32
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: total0 wrote:Pe daemons is most likely your chaprer tactics.
Matt ward killed the fluff so needed re doing
You dont deserve point reductions due to the gear you're eqiped with
You have uber cheap dredknights
Uber cheap librarian
And you have 2 formations just like orks for example
By that logic, TH/ SS Terminators should be something like 70 points. 25 points for Terminator Armour, 30 points for TH, 15 points for Storm Shield, and that's not taking any of the statline into consideration. Do you see why this sort of approach is silly now?
No because you swich out their other weapons to take them...
In anyway its more logically that anything the grey knight players have suggested, expecting to get extra gear to fill.in the weak areas, every book has their weak points, its not something to complain about you are supposed to try minimise the weak area, and win a game. Not get all butt hurt because you have amazing units with maybe 1 or 2 pointless options
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 12:20:14
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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total0 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: total0 wrote:Pe daemons is most likely your chaprer tactics.
Matt ward killed the fluff so needed re doing
You dont deserve point reductions due to the gear you're eqiped with
You have uber cheap dredknights
Uber cheap librarian
And you have 2 formations just like orks for example
By that logic, TH/ SS Terminators should be something like 70 points. 25 points for Terminator Armour, 30 points for TH, 15 points for Storm Shield, and that's not taking any of the statline into consideration. Do you see why this sort of approach is silly now?
No because you swich out their other weapons to take them...
Right then, 3 points discount for a bolter and 2 for a pistol, so 65. Still insane. You cannot judge how much a unit is "worth" by comparing to optional upgrades.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 12:20:47
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 12:21:06
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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total0 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: total0 wrote:Pe daemons is most likely your chaprer tactics. Matt ward killed the fluff so needed re doing You dont deserve point reductions due to the gear you're eqiped with You have uber cheap dredknights Uber cheap librarian And you have 2 formations just like orks for example By that logic, TH/ SS Terminators should be something like 70 points. 25 points for Terminator Armour, 30 points for TH, 15 points for Storm Shield, and that's not taking any of the statline into consideration. Do you see why this sort of approach is silly now? No because you swich out their other weapons to take them... In anyway its more logically that anything the grey knight players have suggested, expecting to get extra gear to fill.in the weak areas, every book has their weak points, its not something to complain about you are supposed to try minimise the weak area, and win a game. Not get all butt hurt because you have amazing units with maybe 1 or 2 pointless options Look all you're doing is being rude and not contributing to this discussion at beyond saying everyone is being a baby. Quit toeing that Rule #1. Second I have no idea what you are saying in that second body, please retype it. I have no idea what "its more logically that anything" means.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 12:21:43
SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 13:42:58
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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total0 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: total0 wrote:Pe daemons is most likely your chaprer tactics.
Matt ward killed the fluff so needed re doing
You dont deserve point reductions due to the gear you're eqiped with
You have uber cheap dredknights
Uber cheap librarian
And you have 2 formations just like orks for example
By that logic, TH/ SS Terminators should be something like 70 points. 25 points for Terminator Armour, 30 points for TH, 15 points for Storm Shield, and that's not taking any of the statline into consideration. Do you see why this sort of approach is silly now?
No because you swich out their other weapons to take them...
In anyway its more logically that anything the grey knight players have suggested, expecting to get extra gear to fill.in the weak areas, every book has their weak points, its not something to complain about you are supposed to try minimise the weak area, and win a game. Not get all butt hurt because you have amazing units with maybe 1 or 2 pointless options
Yet again, for those just joining us, I'm a former GK player, Zion doesn't play the army at all. We're not whining that the GK deserve extra toys and points cost reductions, we're trying to find effective nerfs to the arsenal to justify points cost reductions and expanded options to allow the army to stand effectively on its own instead of requiring Allies to function. The GK Strike Squad is overpriced and very fragile for its price forced to pay for toys it never uses, not an "amazing unit with 1 or 2 pointless options". Automatically Appended Next Post: AlmightyWalrus wrote: total0 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: total0 wrote:Pe daemons is most likely your chaprer tactics.
Matt ward killed the fluff so needed re doing
You dont deserve point reductions due to the gear you're eqiped with
You have uber cheap dredknights
Uber cheap librarian
And you have 2 formations just like orks for example
By that logic, TH/ SS Terminators should be something like 70 points. 25 points for Terminator Armour, 30 points for TH, 15 points for Storm Shield, and that's not taking any of the statline into consideration. Do you see why this sort of approach is silly now?
No because you swich out their other weapons to take them...
Right then, 3 points discount for a bolter and 2 for a pistol, so 65. Still insane. You cannot judge how much a unit is "worth" by comparing to optional upgrades.
Especially given that comparing the grandfathered-in excessive price of an item for a character with multiple wounds, multiple attacks, and an Inv save to the price of an item for an infantryman with no way of getting more than one attack or an Inv save doesn't work. Flat prices for, say, a psychic Mastery Level are meaningless given how much more valuable a psychic mastery level that lets you roll on Divination is than one that gives you Hammerhand. Automatically Appended Next Post: vipoid wrote: Clefty wrote:Do Grey Knights need more Internal Balance? Or External Balance? If the answer is internal Balance, amend the codex within your group yeah?
The easiest way, would be to give Grey Knights all of the Chapter Space Marine options.
And Codex One-upmanship rises again.
This would be lazy and kill the external balance. "I want to be Codex X but better!" is the sort of thinking that leads to the 5e GK book. Automatically Appended Next Post: AlmightyWalrus wrote: total0 wrote: vipoid wrote: Clefty wrote:Do Grey Knights need more Internal Balance? Or External Balance? If the answer is internal Balance, amend the codex within your group yeah?
The easiest way, would be to give Grey Knights all of the Chapter Space Marine options.
And Codex One-upmanship rises again.
Agreed, they just want to be codex space marines + extras for the same costs...
I'd add some sort of comment about reading the thread, but it's clearly wasted.
I'm going to add it just in case. No. We don't want them to be. We want them to be something rather different. If you'd skimmed the last page or so you might have realized this earlier.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/21 13:56:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 17:23:46
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Why would Grey Knights not have access to what Space Marine Chapters across the Imperium have access to? Grey Knights are better Space Marines and One-upmanship already exists. Dark Angels have options that Vanilla doesn't have and maintains that the DA level of technology is greater than the Grey Knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I understand that you "Want" them to be different, but in reality they aren't. They are Grey Space Marines that kill Daemons and currently have a codex of five or so choices to represent this.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 17:29:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 18:19:06
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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But, if they're that similar, why do they even need their own book?
If they're going to have all the same options as SM, shouldn't they just be added to that book?
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 18:31:14
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Clefty wrote:Why would Grey Knights not have access to what Space Marine Chapters across the Imperium have access to? Grey Knights are better Space Marines and One-upmanship already exists. Dark Angels have options that Vanilla doesn't have and maintains that the DA level of technology is greater than the Grey Knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I understand that you "Want" them to be different, but in reality they aren't. They are Grey Space Marines that kill Daemons and currently have a codex of five or so choices to represent this.
And vanilla Marines have tools that the DA, BA, and Space Wolves don't. Next question? Automatically Appended Next Post: vipoid wrote:But, if they're that similar, why do they even need their own book?
If they're going to have all the same options as SM, shouldn't they just be added to that book?
Because lore-wise they're their own force/tied to the Inquisition, not Space Marines. They don't follow SM around. They probably shouldn't be a standalone with the number of available options but at the same time they're a little more complicated than "Let's stick an extra Elites choice into C: SM and pat ourselves on the back for a job well done". They either need a lot of expansion, or they should be in a Daemonhunters book, or they should be a mini-'Dex.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 18:33:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 19:04:53
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Regular Dakkanaut
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And vanilla Marines have tools that the DA, BA, and Space Wolves don't. Next question?
Rude. It was a statement. You need to stop brainstorming and start writing changes so they can be reviewed. At this point you are too focused on quieting opposition, real or imagined to make any real progress.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 19:08:15
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Clefty wrote:And vanilla Marines have tools that the DA, BA, and Space Wolves don't. Next question?
Rude. It was a statement. You need to stop brainstorming and start writing changes so they can be reviewed. At this point you are too focused on quieting opposition, real or imagined to make any real progress.
It'd honestly help if said opposition would read the thread before rolling in here and passing judgement on everyone every other page.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 19:10:04
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Clefty wrote:And vanilla Marines have tools that the DA, BA, and Space Wolves don't. Next question?
Rude. It was a statement. You need to stop brainstorming and start writing changes so they can be reviewed. At this point you are too focused on quieting opposition, real or imagined to make any real progress.
I did. Everyone's too busy telling me to play SM to talk about the changes I wrote. Automatically Appended Next Post: (I'd recap here but I'm still working on how to incorporate the reroll-successful- Inv-against-this-weapon rule on the basic melee weapon into the upgraded versions, reroll successful Inv against an AP3 weapon is much more valuable)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 19:22:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 19:30:33
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Repost them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 19:35:02
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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No you either go through the thread and find it yourself, which is why a thread exists in the first place, or you be quiet while people around you be constructive.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 19:37:22
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Regular Dakkanaut
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(I'd recap here but I'm still working on how to incorporate the reroll-successful-Inv-against-this-weapon rule on the basic melee weapon into the upgraded versions, reroll successful Inv against an AP3 weapon is much more valuable)
That sounds cool, would their weapons force invuls to be re-rolled? I messed around with turning GK's saves into invulnerable saves for the turn after they DS and then maybe giving them some kind of offensive buff for the first turn they charge.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 19:45:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 19:46:46
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Clefty wrote:(I'd recap here but I'm still working on how to incorporate the reroll-successful-Inv-against-this-weapon rule on the basic melee weapon into the upgraded versions, reroll successful Inv against an AP3 weapon is much more valuable)
That sounds cool, would their weapons force invuls to be re-rolled?
It's the major justification for a points drop on Strike squads and Purgators to 17ppm. Replace the Nemesis weapon with a weapon with the profile Range -, S User, AP -, Melee, Daemonbane (Successful Inv saves taken against wounds caused by this weapon must be rerolled). Allow them to purchase Nemesis Force Weapons (represented by the halberds/falchions/rod/hammer) if they want but don't force them to pay for it. Still working on a shooting-oriented psychic power for the Purgators, probably bringing Warp Quake back for the Strike Squad.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/21 19:47:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 19:55:45
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Or you could just hit the 'Filter Thread' link under his user name so that you can see all of his previous posts in this thread, and find them for yourself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 20:15:35
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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AnomanderRake wrote:It's the major justification for a points drop on Strike squads and Purgators to 17ppm. Replace the Nemesis weapon with a weapon with the profile Range -, S User, AP -, Melee, Daemonbane (Successful Inv saves taken against wounds caused by this weapon must be rerolled). Allow them to purchase Nemesis Force Weapons (represented by the halberds/falchions/rod/hammer) if they want but don't force them to pay for it. Still working on a shooting-oriented psychic power for the Purgators, probably bringing Warp Quake back for the Strike Squad.
So, for 3 pts more than a tactical marine, you're losing:
- Chapter Tactics
- Bolt Pistol
And you're gaining:
- Mastery Level 1 (& Hammerhand)
- Weapon that forces successful invulnerable saves to be rerolled against it
- Storm Bolters
- Deep Strike
- Aegis
- Psyk-out grenades
- Preferred Enemy: Daemons
Seems a bit too good to me.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 20:24:24
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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vipoid wrote: AnomanderRake wrote:It's the major justification for a points drop on Strike squads and Purgators to 17ppm. Replace the Nemesis weapon with a weapon with the profile Range -, S User, AP -, Melee, Daemonbane (Successful Inv saves taken against wounds caused by this weapon must be rerolled). Allow them to purchase Nemesis Force Weapons (represented by the halberds/falchions/rod/hammer) if they want but don't force them to pay for it. Still working on a shooting-oriented psychic power for the Purgators, probably bringing Warp Quake back for the Strike Squad.
So, for 3 pts more than a tactical marine, you're losing:
- Chapter Tactics
- Bolt Pistol
And you're gaining:
- Mastery Level 1 (& Hammerhand)
- Weapon that forces successful invulnerable saves to be rerolled against it
- Storm Bolters
- Deep Strike
- Aegis
- Psyk-out grenades
- Preferred Enemy: Daemons
Seems a bit too good to me.
Comparing BSS to Guard Vets shows a 6 point gain for very little, but you go up a point you get a CSM who is better well rounded than a Sister. Add another point and you get a Tact Marine.
Points costs versus other codexes are basically meaningless.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 20:28:25
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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alright let's try to drag things back onto target here.
First of all, I agree strike squads are lack luster, I don't think the answer however needs to be "OMG let's make them cheaper" right now strike squads fill the same role as terminator squads. one or the other is going to be "more useful" and the other'll never be taken in competitive lists. to fix that strike squads need to be re-examined to give a differnt niche. make them the GK "scout squad" whereas termies are the GK "tatical squad" as it where. moving along though..
I think when discussing GKs the best way to address it is to look at codex Deamons (as well as, to a lesser extent codex: CSMs) and ask "what tools do GKs have to deal with that?" if there's no good answer, then it needs to be addressed
Let's go through the deamons codex, (as well as examine the deamons in Codex CSM) and see how the GKs respond. Please note I'm not saying GKs must have a hard counter for everything in codex: deamons. but I think it's fair to expect their tool box to be able to answer anything the deamons have.
IMHO the GKs should proably get some sort of long ranged weapon to give them something that can return fire on a skull cannon. by the large the deamons have pretty short ranged weapons, but they DO have a form of artillery that GKs will need to deal with
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 20:35:23
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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ClockworkZion wrote:
Comparing BSS to Guard Vets shows a 6 point gain for very little, but you go up a point you get a CSM who is better well rounded than a Sister. Add another point and you get a Tact Marine.
Points costs versus other codexes are basically meaningless.
More accurately, SoB are badly-priced. Likewise, either CSMs should be cheaper, or Tactical Marines should be more expensive. Not sure which.
Bad pricing in one instance does not justify further instances.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 20:43:01
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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vipoid wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
Comparing BSS to Guard Vets shows a 6 point gain for very little, but you go up a point you get a CSM who is better well rounded than a Sister. Add another point and you get a Tact Marine.
Points costs versus other codexes are basically meaningless.
More accurately, SoB are badly-priced. Likewise, either CSMs should be cheaper, or Tactical Marines should be more expensive. Not sure which.
Bad pricing in one instance does not justify further instances.
MT also cost 12 points. Space Marine Scouts cost 10. Pricing is determined based on how they fit into the army, not how they compare to other armies and it's become pretty apparent after looking around at things that trying to argue that things are over/under priced based on other books is just down right silly. The devs don't seem to approach points costing that way, so I don't see a need to try and shoe horn in something that the game doesn't even follow as a standard when trying to justify points costs of things anymore.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 20:43:40
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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vipoid wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:
Comparing BSS to Guard Vets shows a 6 point gain for very little, but you go up a point you get a CSM who is better well rounded than a Sister. Add another point and you get a Tact Marine.
Points costs versus other codexes are basically meaningless.
More accurately, SoB are badly-priced. Likewise, either CSMs should be cheaper, or Tactical Marines should be more expensive. Not sure which.
Bad pricing in one instance does not justify further instances.
The reasoning for the pricing here is built around the fact that the offensive toys aren't worth a lot when they're still tied to a power-armoured body that goes down like tissue paper on a modern 40k battlefield. If I were overhauling the entire game here I'd take away the overabundance of consequence-free long-ranged AP2/3 firepower, but I can't, so I'm going to do what I can while adjusting one Codex.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 21:08:59
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Which many also believe to be too much - especially after losing their doctrines
ClockworkZion wrote:Pricing is determined based on how they fit into the army, not how they compare to other armies and it's become pretty apparent after looking around at things that trying to argue that things are over/under priced based on other books is just down right silly.
No, it isn't. It is both logical and sensible.
Books are supposed to be balanced against each other, and having either similar units with vastly different prices, or similar prices on units when one is far better is virtually guaranteed to end in imbalance.
*Maybe* some other rule or unit makes up for one unit being over-/under-costed compared to units in other books, but that's a very slippery slope. More often, you just end up creating a lot of auto-take and never-take units.
I appreciate that this isn't always true, but it's certainly the case more often than not.
AnomanderRake wrote:
The reasoning for the pricing here is built around the fact that the offensive toys aren't worth a lot when they're still tied to a power-armoured body that goes down like tissue paper on a modern 40k battlefield. If I were overhauling the entire game here I'd take away the overabundance of consequence-free long-ranged AP2/3 firepower, but I can't, so I'm going to do what I can while adjusting one Codex.
I do appreciate that there are diminishing returns for sticking a lot of wargear on a single model, but are you sure about your costing of force swords? I mean, most people seem to think that they're of marginal use, yet 3pts per model is a quite significant amount to cost them at. Would 2pts per model not be more reasonable?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/21 21:10:16
blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 21:12:33
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Stuck on +1A too so I wouldn't have to go try and rewrite the old True Grit rule, I thought that made them useful enough to assess at a higher cost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 21:36:27
Subject: Re:Balancing Grey Knights
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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vipoid wrote:
Which many also believe to be too much - especially after losing their doctrines
Which further proves my point that the points costing from one codex to another is not really equal. And based on that arguments that GKSS are getting too much vs Tact Marines is silly as hell because codexes aren't priced relative to each other, just themselves.
vipoid wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:Pricing is determined based on how they fit into the army, not how they compare to other armies and it's become pretty apparent after looking around at things that trying to argue that things are over/under priced based on other books is just down right silly.
No, it isn't. It is both logical and sensible.
No it's not. If the game doesn't have things points balanced with each other externally then arguing about balanced based on external points costs is just as pointless as a dog chasing it's own tail: in the end you end up tired and you achieve nothing.
vipoid wrote:Books are supposed to be balanced against each other, and having either similar units with vastly different prices, or similar prices on units when one is far better is virtually guaranteed to end in imbalance.
That's what we want from GW, not how it actually works. Try to not confuse the two.
When GW actually fixes external balance, then you have an argument, until then no dice.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/21 21:38:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/21 23:49:38
Subject: Balancing Grey Knights
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Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
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Do gk units automatically get their primaris since their powers are all sanctic?
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4000
wordbearers 3000
1000 |
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