Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had a few ideas with the Chaos land raider and how to not make it a waste of a heavy support slot.

Make it a dedicated transport (obvious not waste of a heavy support slot. I know)

Make it 200 points

Make a new ability you can pay for the land raider to have called "Daemon Gullet". Have it cost between 30-45 points and give us the ability to increase our capacity from 10 to 20. On the flipside however, if you suffer lost hull point, you have to roll a D3 at the start of your next turn. On a 1, your land raider consumes one of it's passengers and regain a hull point. You can choose to roll to regain a weapon destroyed, at the cost of another passenger, at the start of your turn if need be, but need to roll a 1 on a D6 instead of a D3 and you do not regain a missing hull point with this roll. You can only make one of each of these rolls per turn (don't want people to load up with cultists and just eat all of them in exchange for a steady flow of hull points & repaired guns).

Thoughts?

Seems cool. I hate the limited transport capacity of Chaos Land Raiders as well and being able to bump it up to 12, 16, or even 20 would be fantastic.

The regeneration ability is also novel and fits with the Chaos theme of: Great Power at a Great Cost. I might simplify your rule mechanic so that the process is: you sacrifice a passenger granting you a D3 roll. If that roll is successful you can choose to either regain a hull point or fix a destroyed weapon/immobilization result. That is just personal preference to streamline things and reduce the number of sub-rules to remember. I like your idea of limiting this regeneration to once per turn.

Have you tried this out in a game?




This idea just came to me but how about increasing the transport capacity of a Land Raider by reducing the weaponry? This might be more Nurgle themed than anything, but your "Daemon Gullet" idea has me picturing a mutated Land Raider which is more fleshy warp beast/daemon than machine that just lumbers forward and vomits out its contents. Maybe give it a single bile spray weapon on the front turret to represent the discharge of foul juices that proceed the charging Chaos warriors inside. Call the transport capacity 20, give the machine the Daemon rule, and maybe let it regenerate a hull point a turn for "free" or allow it eat passengers for the same regeneration effect. Might be fun, and it would definitely be hard to knock out without concentrated effort!

No, I haven't tried this out yet because I only thought up of it a few days ago. The choice of either regenerating a hull point or a weapon might work better too than two separate rolls. Went with the mentality of "You want this greater capacity? Enjoy the greater chance of being turned into daemon poo!" instead of a more game balance approach. And I never thought about reducing weaponry to increase capacity. Our raider doesn't have that much variety in weaponry anyways, so why hinder it on that aspect further?

Personally been thinking about more god specific gear/bonuses to go with the overall army, especially for the Defiler (I feel our little crab could do some good with god specific weapons, like a blast master!), but haven't given it much thought.

 StevieLasVegas wrote:
Had a few ideas with the Chaos land raider and how to not make it a waste of a heavy support slot.

Make it a dedicated transport (obvious not waste of a heavy support slot. I know)

Make it 200 points

Make a new ability you can pay for the land raider to have called "Daemon Gullet". Have it cost between 30-45 points and give us the ability to increase our capacity from 10 to 20. On the flipside however, if you suffer lost hull point, you have to roll a D3 at the start of your next turn. On a 1, your land raider consumes one of it's passengers and regain a hull point. You can choose to roll to regain a weapon destroyed, at the cost of another passenger, at the start of your turn if need be, but need to roll a 1 on a D6 instead of a D3 and you do not regain a missing hull point with this roll. You can only make one of each of these rolls per turn (don't want people to load up with cultists and just eat all of them in exchange for a steady flow of hull points & repaired guns).

Thoughts?

not a bad idea. I would call it something else and have it represented by a daemonic presence taking up some/most of the driver and electronic and mechanical system with less space. Could just be daemonic possession


Really I want to see chaos have the option to take all the land raider varrients, with either an advantage to not have PotMS or a capacity upgrade or a point cost decrease.

 StevieLasVegas wrote:
And I never thought about reducing weaponry to increase capacity. Our raider doesn't have that much variety in weaponry anyways, so why hinder it on that aspect further?

I was mainly using the Imperial Marine Land Raider variants as an example. The Redeemer has arguably less powerful weapons than a standard Land Raider but packs in more guys. 20 Capacity is a lot, so to prevent people from screaming "cheese!" I thought making the high capacity LR nearly weaponless might be more palatable to opponents. It would literally be an armored (fleshy?) box that you point at an enemy with enough resiliency to hopefully deliver its payload of stabby guys. Land Raiders aren't particularly offensive anyway as you say, so scrapping the firepower and giving it additional defensive perks might be an interesting way to go.

Anyway, my pukey-Land Raider was a spur of the moment idea. Still like the visual though...

The Crusader is the one with the biggest capacity and the least potent weaponry (hurricane bolters are hardly formidable). The Redeemer has flamestorm cannons, which can be much more effective than lascannons. Both of the non-Phobos Land Raiders have a front-mounted TL assault cannon, also quite a powerful weapon.

What Chaos Land Raiders need:

- Reaper autocannons, because it's a Chaos staple.
- Some equivalent to the TL assault cannons and multi-meltas that Loyalist Land Raiders can take, both very nice weapons to have. Hull-mounted hades autocannons would be a good start.
- Higher capacity.
- A better equivalent to PoTMS. Daemonic Possession would suck even if it didn't reduce the vehicle to BS3.
- Anything other than lascannon sponsons.

There are also plenty of ways that this could be used as an opportunity to give Chaos something unique that isn't just playing the "making do with worse stuff than Loyalists" catch-up game. How about a Land Raider with no transport capacity and a lot of firepower, similar to what the Vendetta is to the Valkyrie or what the Predator is to the Rhino? There is the Ares, but not much else.

I think just giving them modified versions of the Crusader and Redeemer would moslty solve the problem. Replace the Assualt Cannon with the Reaper Autocannon and you've pretty much got it.

The Daemon Gullet thing reminds me of a similar conversation I had with a friend, about how Chaos Land Raiders suck. I sarcastically said that they're the most overpowered unit in the game right now, because they can take a dozer blade (Loyalist ones can not, for some reason). I said that a Land Raider with daemonic possession and dozer blade could eat an entire Tau army by using the dozer blade to shovel them inside itself. I've been meaning to make rules for the Greater Exalted Possessed Land Raider for a while now.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The Crusader is the one with the biggest capacity and the least potent weaponry (hurricane bolters are hardly formidable). The Redeemer has flamestorm cannons, which can be much more effective than lascannons. Both of the non-Phobos Land Raiders have a front-mounted TL assault cannon, also quite a powerful weapon.

Range: Template weapons are less versatile than other ranged weapons. Lascannons and Hurricane Bolters can typically always fire on a target every turn due to their range profiles, flamestorm cannons cannot. The Redeemer requires you to rush right up to the enemy, which is what an assault tank should do, but you rarely if ever make your points investment back with the Redeemer's weaponry.

Reaper Autocannon sponsons would be a start along with a better hull weapon (Hades Autocannon? Baleflamer?). Multimelta should be an option.

PotMS should be present in CSM Land Raiders just as in Loyalist Raiders.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Reaper Autocannon sponsons would be a start along with a better hull weapon (Hades Autocannon? Baleflamer?). Multimelta should be an option.

PotMS should be present in CSM Land Raiders just as in Loyalist Raiders.

Oh god a baleflamer tank would be SO FREAKING AWESOME.

 Robisagg wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Reaper Autocannon sponsons would be a start along with a better hull weapon (Hades Autocannon? Baleflamer?). Multimelta should be an option.
PotMS should be present in CSM Land Raiders just as in Loyalist Raiders.

Oh god a baleflamer tank would be SO FREAKING AWESOME.

dual baleflamer might be too good. With PotMS(to split fire) it WOULD be too good.

Keep it to one I think

We had the idea of the Land Raider World Burner Variant, or the helbastard.

2 x twin linked sponson mounted Hades Autocannons and a hull mounted Bale Flamer. Add in Infernal Device, which follows PotMS on a 5+, and you're nearly there I think.

Add in Daemonic Possession, which would also grant the Daemon USR, and you have a pretty beastly tank.

I like the Gullet idea.

I would have their stock Land Raider be:

200 points
16-model capacity
Twin-linked Hades Autocannon

May purchase Lascannon, Reaper Autocannon or Multi-Melta sponsons
May purchase Baleflamer (replaces Hades Autocannon)
May purchase Daemonic Possession

Current daemonic possession sucks. If I were to change it, I'd have it do something like give IWND and Daemon USR's or lower Ballistic Skill to 3 and passenger capacity to 10 in exchange for being able to fire all weapons at full BS up to cruising speed.

But this is very sad.

I guess we'll accept the fact that the OP was about a specific daemonic type of land raider-creature and the latter posts are not at all connected to that beyond the words land raider.

You're typing out ideas for land raiders with better options. You have "may purchase" enough times that you are talking about some kind of platonic ideal of a land raider, that sometimes has autocannon sponsons and other times lascannons, or sometimes has hull baleflamer and sometimes hull heavy bolters. Your list entry exists in the world of the forms and its equipment is in a cloud of uncertainty like electron density.

The problem for me, like this may just be for me and not for you if you are capable of having Land Raiders that exist only as probabilities, the problem for me is that the model in my collection of models and in most collections of models are crappy phobos pattern land raiders with lascannon sponsons and no frag launchers. That is what a Chaos Land Raider almost always appears as in games that I play, and I say almost because now there is that cloud of uncertainty and I can't say for sure that I have never played or will never play a game in which my model had multimelta sponsons and I just forgot, and I could have had theoretical, probable fun with the guns that I could theoretically model.

This may prompt the question of if the Phobos were really good, how much of a bother would it be that you couldn't get one with autocannons?

Also, would you care as much about having a different hull mount if the units you saw most were 'Ard Boyz, Dire Avengers, and Necron Warriors?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

What Chaos Land Raiders need:

- Reaper autocannons, because it's a Chaos staple.
- Some equivalent to the TL assault cannons and multi-meltas that Loyalist Land Raiders can take, both very nice weapons to have. Hull-mounted hades autocannons would be a good start.
- Higher capacity.
- A better equivalent to PoTMS. Daemonic Possession would suck even if it didn't reduce the vehicle to BS3.
- Anything other than lascannon sponsons.

There are also plenty of ways that this could be used as an opportunity to give Chaos something unique that isn't just playing the "making do with worse stuff than Loyalists" catch-up game.

These sentences are fairly contradictory, since the entire point of autocannon-as-chaos-signature is that it's a couple guys with salvaged, noisy weapons with knives stuck on the end and dragged around on improvised over the shoulder slings made from jewelers' chain vs. the loyalists' precision-machined rotary guns and heat rays that can be dual mounted on squadrons of antigravity vehicles.


So, on "making land raiders useful for Chaos," I would address the land raiders that are used at all, i.e. the models that have godhammer lascannons and twin HB.

Seriously though, chaos land raiders should be /more/ powerful/expensive.

I personally like the idea of having one LR for each God

Bile Raider

275 points

The Bile raider is armed with a forward mounted Vommit cannon and 2 sponson mounted Maggot launchers.

Vommit cannon: Str6 AP4 template, torrent, pinning, heavy 2

Maggot launchers: Str3 AP- 24" pinning, heavy 20

Transport capacity: 1 Soulgrinder of Nurgle

AV: 14/13/14 open topped.

Demonic possesion, Shrouded, Liviing artillery

Living artillery: A vehicle with this rule can and must fire all of its weaponry at different targets during the shooting phase.

pelicaniforce wrote:
You're typing out ideas for land raiders with better options. You have "may purchase" enough times that you are talking about some kind of platonic ideal of a land raider, that sometimes has autocannon sponsons and other times lascannons, or sometimes has hull baleflamer and sometimes hull heavy bolters. Your list entry exists in the world of the forms and its equipment is in a cloud of uncertainty like electron density.

It's almost like we're talking about a wargame with units that tend to have multiple options. Crazy, huh?

I think that is vacuous. Partially, it does not fix the chaos land raider. Mainly though, there is a very good reason for the land raider not to have options.

First, it doesn't fix the raider. A "chaos land raider," in the flesh, in the game, does not actually have options; it is either a land raider with autocannons or a land raider with lascannons.

Now you say it can be fixed by having options. The putative land raider "with options" can exist only in a rule book. You can say it is "useful," because it has the option for melta sponsons, whereas if it has lascannons it is not useful. That means on the table the lascannon version might as well not exist.

Then there is the problem that all of the chaos land raiders available for purchase, for future production, and the vast majority of chaos land raiders that exist in 2000+ point chaos model collections have lascannon sponsons, and none of those have really been improved by the option to write down "land raider with multimeltas" on an army roster.

Then, the options you are talking about are intellectually compromised and would make me feel bad about myself. You know what would be useful in this game? multi-meltas or ap3 templates. The qualities that are good in this game are the ability to move 30" and kill seventeen space marines in three turns. However, multi-meltas and ap3 templates don't have any relation to either an amazing model, or to the background reasons that the human factions of the DAoT, the Crusade, or M41 use land raiders for, which involves driving many miles and fighting battles with nominal support because if you had a squad of obliterators or devastators on a hill, you wouldn't need that land raider that drove seventy six miles across a seabed.

If you want a Land Raider Achilles or Ares, then use an Achilles or Ares. The problem is that your response to "make land raiders (things that have lascannons) useful for chaos" is "use a different tank that doesn't have lascannons," and then invent tanks primarily with reference to whether they would be better at moving 24" and shooting fast skimmers, av14, or meqs.

I think that the suggestion that lascannons need to be better is on point, because chaos land raiders have lascannons, at the moment.

I don't think you're articulating your point very well. Being a bit less verbose might be helpful.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I think that is vacuous. Partially, it does not fix the chaos land raider. Mainly though, there is a very good reason for the land raider not to have options.

First, it doesn't fix the raider. A "chaos land raider," in the flesh, in the game, does not actually have options; it is either a land raider with autocannons or a land raider with lascannons.

Now you say it can be fixed by having options. The putative land raider "with options" can exist only in a rule book. You can say it is "useful," because it has the option for melta sponsons, whereas if it has lascannons it is not useful. That means on the table the lascannon version might as well not exist.

Then there is the problem that all of the chaos land raiders available for purchase, for future production, and the vast majority of chaos land raiders that exist in 2000+ point chaos model collections have lascannon sponsons, and none of those have really been improved by the option to write down "land raider with multimeltas" on an army roster.

Then, the options you are talking about are intellectually compromised and would make me feel bad about myself. You know what would be useful in this game? multi-meltas or ap3 templates. The qualities that are good in this game are the ability to move 30" and kill seventeen space marines in three turns. However, multi-meltas and ap3 templates don't have any relation to either an amazing model, or to the background reasons that the human factions of the DAoT, the Crusade, or M41 use land raiders for, which involves driving many miles and fighting battles with nominal support because if you had a squad of obliterators or devastators on a hill, you wouldn't need that land raider that drove seventy six miles across a seabed.

If you want a Land Raider Achilles or Ares, then use an Achilles or Ares. The problem is that your response to "make land raiders (things that have lascannons) useful for chaos" is "use a different tank that doesn't have lascannons," and then invent tanks primarily with reference to whether they would be better at moving 24" and shooting fast skimmers, av14, or meqs.

I think that the suggestion that lascannons need to be better is on point, because chaos land raiders have lascannons, at the moment.

So because all Chaos Land Raiders currently have Lascannons, we couldn't have ones with different weapons in the future Why wouldn't Chaos make use of their own varieties of Land Raider, it's not like Chaos doesn't make it's own stuff or move forward with its own ideas, the Dark Mechanicum aren't tied the same way as their loyalist countersparts so it's possible.

And are you saying that because there is no mention of them in the fluff that we couldn't have other versions of a Land Raider? There had been no mention of Defilers or Dread Knights, Kaidor Drago or the Doom of Malan'tai before, yet they were given a place in a codex.

The Chaos Land Raider as it is, has it's uses. But, it could be more useful if it had certain things going for it. Why not have a version of PotMS, why not make Daemonic Possession better or make Chaos God Specific Marks available for it. I guess you are right though, the tank itself isn't necessarily what needs fixing, but how to make it a better choice.

I am with BlaxicanX though, I might have missed your point entirely.

I'm saying that the Proposed Model forum would be colossally lame. If you wanted to own a land raider with autocannons, you'd build one, you'd post it in the P&M forum. Then you might come to the proposed rules forum and talk about whether it should be 100 points and a troops choice or sixteen points and a Lord of War. As of now, you aren't even proposing rules, since both the Land Raider and Reaper Autocannon have rules already.

You are improving an army list entry called a "chaos land raider." That is fine if your hobby is fantasizing about an army will be if you build it some day. I would like to improve the model that I have in my army right now, and that everyone with a Chaos LR also has in their army. It's not because I need a set of rules that can deliver a 160 point Lord with five s5 attacks, it's because it's a nice model with nice background and I like using it in games.

The criteria you have for useful or good are pretty tawdry, sort of the way people don't like a lot of recently made units.

You're saying that the Land Raider's /rules/ are bad, but building a fictional vehicle and physical model around what kind of rules would be convenient to have on a 6'x4' table in a game. That's bad.

Contrast this with the FW Land Raider Achilles. It has a long range anti personnel thunderfire main gun and short range anti tank melta sponsons, and no assault ramp. It is an Imperial Fist vehicle and it exists because, if Imperial Fists really existed, they would want to use a vehicle very much like it to fight real campaigns. These are completely weird rules to have on the tabletop, and if vehicles were designed the way you're doing it now (this army list "needs" something to provide an optimal combination of numbers), it wouldn't exist.

It also makes me think that if Land Raiders Phobos were wrathful gods of the battlefield and their Godhammer lascannons were powerful multishot or blast weapons, you would not be craving the fairly workman-like autocannon sponson.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Seriously though, chaos land raiders should be more powerful/expensive.

Now propose some rules, or talk about rules.

Regular Chaos Landraider [215] Can exchange TL-HB for Reaper Autocannon for 5 points.

Chaos Land Raider Hellhammer - replaces each TL-LC with Hades Autocannon, replaces TL-HB with reaper cannon. Transport 14 [230]

Chaos Land Raider Butcherfiend - replace each TL-LC with 2x TL-HF, Replace TL-HB with Baleflamer. Transport 20 [250].

All Chaos Landraider variants have access to Greater Daemonic Possesion. Gives them Daemon USR, and any time a model is removed from a tank shock (gives reason to use destroyer blades ever) or causes HP from a ram, Raider gains a HP. (May raise HP above normal amount?) [15 points]


And for chaos vehicles in general, have posession be god-based. Change the normal omnomnom rule to be "gains IWND. If the vehicle fails the roll, it consumes a random non-character model, with no saves of any kind allowed. If the Models within the transport have the same alignment, they make take armor saves as normal. Opposed alignment [Khorne <-> Slaanesh, Nurgle <-> Tzeench] lose d3 models." 15 for initial posession, 10 more for alignment
Then add in Posession of ...
--Khorne: Counts its front armor as 2 higher for DoG / Ram purposes (max 15), Models with mark of Khorne count transports assault vehicle as long as it remain stationary. If already assault vehicle then it may move 12", though the models will have to pass Dangerous Terrain when assaulting.
--Slaanesh: Smoke launchers are 2 use, and grant models with MoS/DoS Stealth that are within 6" of vehicle. Transport gains 2 fireports for Sonic Weaponry. If it already has fireports, Sonic weapons always count as stationary.
--Nurgle: If first IWND roll is successful, may make a second that is successful on 6+. Grants MoN/DoN +1 to FNP within 6".
--Tzeench: All weapons have soul blaze, if warpflame gargoyles soublaze purchased, soublaze becomes d3+1 s4 AP3 hits.
------(a) Models with MoT/DoT embarked within may spend a warp charge to d3: (1) AP worsen by 1, str +1 (2) Ap improve by 1, Str +1 (3) Ap improve by 2, str +d3.
------(b) Models with MoT/DoT embarked count the transport as open topped for purposes of casting psychic powers. Psykers embarked generate an additional d2 warp charge.

Edit: Some typo's / added in another idea for Greater Daemonic Possession

So, no thoughts/ideas/"OMG OP/UNDERCOSTED" on those things? Take that loyalists. Chaos gets cooler 'raiders now

The question is what should a Chaos Land Raider be like?-In its current state a Loyalist Land Raider is not equal to a Chaos Land Raider, thus there is precedent for distinctions. The next question is should the Chaos Land Raider be inferior to the loyalist Land Raiders?-I don't think so. Further are we meant to believe that despite Chaos having gone into the Eye of Terror with half of the Mechanicum, no real effort of any kind has been taken by the Dark Mechanicum to modify or improve such a staple vehicle of the Chaos Marines arsenal?-Reasonably Chaos should have some variant of the basic Land Raider all their own.

I don't think GW knows how to represent the many flavors of chaos. With a codex that does little to distinguish renegades from legions, GW's representation is so broad as to be bland.

StarHunter25 wrote:
So, no thoughts/ideas/"OMG OP/UNDERCOSTED" on those things? Take that loyalists. Chaos gets cooler 'raiders now

Aren't you a sassy troll?-You do realize you're in the Proposed Rules forum, where people discuss the idea of creating new rules for units. If you don't like something and have a rationale say so, but otherwise you're just fighting the purpose of this forum.

I like the demonic gullet idea but you need to simplify it more to speed up gameplay. Something along these lines maybe?

Demonic gullet: 10 point upgrade grants:
Transport capacity increased to 16
One randomly allocated model removed per turn
It will not die

What do you guys think?

I hope folks will forgive me for a bit of self promotion, but I'm spear heading a project of my own that involves chaos chaos marines and fixing them: a new reign of chaos. I not totally on board with all of the ideas I've seen here, but I do like the direction of the original posters idea. I hope you don't mind if I look at this thread for some inspiration in my own project.