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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 04:52:22
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Dakka Veteran
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TheKbob wrote:And my point is "so, what?" Get mad about real media bias and not whether Destiny gets a 6 or a 9 from IGN?
The name of the post kind of gives the game away:
http://www.kellyhills.com/blog/in-shocking-news-people-can-care-about-more-than-one-thing-at-a-time/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 04:58:50
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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TheKbob wrote:
And my point is "so, what?" Get mad about real media bias and not whether Destiny gets a 6 or a 9 from IGN?
That's kinda like the
"There's kids with cancer, why do you care about this?"
Sort of fallacy isn't it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:02:36
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: TheKbob wrote: And my point is "so, what?" Get mad about real media bias and not whether Destiny gets a 6 or a 9 from IGN? That's kinda like the "There's kids with cancer, why do you care about this?" Sort of fallacy isn't it. I've met some pretty crappy people on twitter though they have been quite bad. Can someone do me a favor and look for journalists in the media claiming to represent gamers. Please. It would help me against this idiot who thinks he's intelligent because I am tired and really don't want to argue. Anyone? Please? He keeps attacking me with stupid questions he knows the answers to. And keeps swearing at me, doesn't use any wording past 6 letters. or 4.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:03:52
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:12:16
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Douglas Bader
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Really? Because I don't see any kind of long-term victory here. Some gamers (not all, obviously, since I am a gamer and I am not on your side) are making a lot of noise, but I fail to see any changes being made in response to that noise. The corrupt journalism system still exists, and any legitimate message is being lost in the flood of "SJWs suck" nonsense. In fact, I'd argue that this "fight" is doing more harm than good by making into a character judgement on a small number of individuals and ignoring the context of the system they're a part of. You might trash the reputation of one person, but that's not the same as winning the fight.
(Unless of course the goal of the fight is to punish someone you don't like, not to improve the quality of journalism. But I don't think you want to admit that.)
Do you know the journalists are getting hit hard by this massive boycott?
Proof of this? And could you also explain how this is doing so much more than every previous bit of outrage over bad journalism?
Asherian Command wrote:Though I disagree with thunderf00t having him suspended I think was not the right path for antia.
Can't say I have any sympathy for him. He's an obnoxious  who spends way too much time whining and crying about how much feminism sucks, and any credibility he once had is long gone. I suspect anything he had to say on this issue had much more to do with his anti-feminist crusade than any real interest in gaming.
Sorry, but by posting anything from that site you've thoroughly destroyed your own credibility. And, just like you'd expect from a right-wing nutcase (and dishonest  ) like Breitbart that article spends more time whining about how much feminism and SJWs suck than addressing any legitimate issues.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:18:33
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Peregrine wrote: Really? Because I don't see any kind of long-term victory here. Some gamers (not all, obviously, since I am a gamer and I am not on your side) are making a lot of noise, but I fail to see any changes being made in response to that noise. The corrupt journalism system still exists, and any legitimate message is being lost in the flood of "SJWs suck" nonsense. In fact, I'd argue that this "fight" is doing more harm than good by making into a character judgement on a small number of individuals and ignoring the context of the system they're a part of. You might trash the reputation of one person, but that's not the same as winning the fight. (Unless of course the goal of the fight is to punish someone you don't like, not to improve the quality of journalism. But I don't think you want to admit that.) Do you know the journalists are getting hit hard by this massive boycott? Proof of this? And could you also explain how this is doing so much more than every previous bit of outrage over bad journalism? Asherian Command wrote:Though I disagree with thunderf00t having him suspended I think was not the right path for antia. Can't say I have any sympathy for him. He's an obnoxious  who spends way too much time whining and crying about how much feminism sucks, and any credibility he once had is long gone. I suspect anything he had to say on this issue had much more to do with his anti-feminist crusade than any real interest in gaming. Sorry, but by posting anything from that site you've thoroughly destroyed your own credibility. And, just like you'd expect from a right-wing nutcase (and dishonest  ) like Breitbart that article spends more time whining about how much feminism and SJWs suck than addressing any legitimate issues. You know I can retort and say that the same could be said about the other side, left wing nuts who think we need to bow before women and kiss their feet, because they are far superior, and that gamers are dead. And that their political agenda is the only right agenda. Proof I posted it a while ago. Gamarsutra has lost quite a bit of daily viewership. What I am seeing is a general move to ethical journalism. Whether you have either a. not seen them. B. ignored them. or c. you know, but you are merely here to start an argument or look for a fight.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:22:42
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:25:31
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Douglas Bader
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Asherian Command wrote:You know I can retort and say that the same could be said about the other side, left wing nuts who think we need to bow before women and kiss their feet, because they are far superior
Nobody is saying this.
and that gamers are dead.
They sure seem to be. What I see is an angry mob desperately flailing around for anything to stop their increasing irrelevance, and if I was a game publisher I'd be giving serious thought to their market value compared to aiming for a more mainstream audience.
Proof I posted it a while ago. Gamarsutra has lost quite a bit of daily viewership.
Do you understand the difference between a temporary (so far) drop in daily views on one site and long-term change across the entire gaming journalism industry?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:25:43
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:30:07
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Peregrine wrote: Asherian Command wrote:You know I can retort and say that the same could be said about the other side, left wing nuts who think we need to bow before women and kiss their feet, because they are far superior
Nobody is saying this.
and that gamers are dead.
They sure seem to be. What I see is an angry mob desperately flailing around for anything to stop their increasing irrelevance, and if I was a game publisher I'd be giving serious thought to their market value compared to aiming for a more mainstream audience.
Proof I posted it a while ago. Gamarsutra has lost quite a bit of daily viewership.
Do you understand the difference between a temporary (so far) drop in daily views on one site and long-term change across the entire gaming journalism industry?
Okay I can't believe I am saying this but....
Are you even a real human being?
Can you really say that?
Do you see games journalists being raped and killed?
I am so vastly interested in your opinion in how wrong it is.
How you keep asserting, but you keep attacking gamers in the same post. Its freaking incredible.
We have professionals on one hand that call themselves professionals who then go down into petty insults and start attacking an entire community for no reason other than a bunch of bag eggs, and you are claiming that we are the angry mob.
Hahahaha.
Oh god. You have to be joking.
Nobody is saying this.
Yes they are!
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/08/the-death-of-the-gamers-and-the-women-who-killed-them/
Oh look at that! A source!
Oh theres another Zoey Quinn articles oh boy you. Keep posting this stuff. And I laugh so bloody hard.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:30:58
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Douglas Bader
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Mechanical Crow wrote:Peregrine, just watch this again:
{video of a woman who admits she never plays games telling us all about her opinions about games}
I'm shocked that a representative of a right-wing organization would publish a video complaining about how feminism is ruining everything, complete with straw man arguments and conservative cliches about how "real" feminism is not this left-wing stuff they hate. Shocked!
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:32:51
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Kid_Kyoto
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Peregrine wrote:
Sorry, but by posting anything from that site you've thoroughly destroyed your own credibility. And, just like you'd expect from a right-wing nutcase (and dishonest  ) like Breitbart that article spends more time whining about how much feminism and SJWs suck than addressing any legitimate issues.
Did you read the comments? Oh man, those were the most delightful mix of Poe's Law exemplars I think I have ever noticed. They actually got painful after a while.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:35:00
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Peregrine wrote: Mechanical Crow wrote:Peregrine, just watch this again:
{video of a woman who admits she never plays games telling us all about her opinions about games}
I'm shocked that a representative of a right-wing organization would publish a video complaining about how feminism is ruining everything, complete with straw man arguments and conservative cliches about how "real" feminism is not this left-wing stuff they hate. Shocked!
And your arguments aren't strawmanning?
Did you just not call gamers dead a few minutes ago?
You think that is a great way to go around.
Hey man Gamers are dead?
"Yeah you person who plays games. Yeah you are dead. Also your worse than ISIS!" *Smiles and winks at the camera before setting the building on fire*
Yeah the greatest idea Peregrine. Disable your entire credibility by attacking a large multicultured community with invalid criticism. Congratulations.
I think gamers everywhere love to be called an angry mob, and misgoynists! Oh boy! I can't wait to tell people! *Skips off into the sunset*
(If you can't tell this is sarcasm I have lost all hope in humanity.)
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:37:12
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Douglas Bader
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...
You really need to work on your communication skills. I have no idea what point you're trying to make with this.
We have professionals on one hand that call themselves professionals who then go down into petty insults and start attacking an entire community for no reason other than a bunch of bag eggs, and you are claiming that we are the angry mob.
You are the angry mob. Even if you set aside the death threats and other abuse I see nothing but directionless anger, without any constructive solutions being offered. You don't like certain people, and you want everyone to know how much they suck. But other than that, what's left? Some incoherent rants about how SJWs are ruining everything? Demands for anyone you disagree with to get out of your thread? This is nothing more than another situation where the internet has a pet cause for a short time, makes a bunch of noise, and then forgets the whole thing once they find something else to be outraged about.
Err, lol? Nothing in that article is even remotely close to "we need to bow before women and kiss their feet, because they are far superior". Could you please stop inventing straw man arguments and stick to what people are actually saying?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:40:02
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Peregrine wrote: ... You really need to work on your communication skills. I have no idea what point you're trying to make with this. We have professionals on one hand that call themselves professionals who then go down into petty insults and start attacking an entire community for no reason other than a bunch of bag eggs, and you are claiming that we are the angry mob. You are the angry mob. Even if you set aside the death threats and other abuse I see nothing but directionless anger, without any constructive solutions being offered. You don't like certain people, and you want everyone to know how much they suck. But other than that, what's left? Some incoherent rants about how SJWs are ruining everything? Demands for anyone you disagree with to get out of your thread? This is nothing more than another situation where the internet has a pet cause for a short time, makes a bunch of noise, and then forgets the whole thing once they find something else to be outraged about. Err, lol? Nothing in that article is even remotely close to "we need to bow before women and kiss their feet, because they are far superior". Could you please stop inventing straw man arguments and stick to what people are actually saying? As I have said before you first. We are not an angry mob. Check not your shield, they are outraged yes, but you could say the same about the civil rights movement that it was an angry mob by your stupid definition.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:44:31
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:41:14
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Douglas Bader
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Asherian Command wrote:"Yeah you person who plays games. Yeah you are dead. Also your worse than ISIS!" *Smiles and winks at the camera before setting the building on fire*
Again with the straw man arguments. Nobody is saying that gamers are worse than ISIS, or even remotely close to that level of evil.
Also, you don't seem to understand the difference between "gamers" (in the context of "gamers are dead") and "people who play games". Perhaps you should try to understand the "gamers are dead" argument before you criticize it?
Disable your entire credibility by attacking a large multicultured community with invalid criticism.
It's entirely valid criticism. Even you are spending more time complaining about how you're under attack than addressing the actual issues. And you're doing it in a clearly emotional way that suggests you're just lashing out at the enemy (you know, like an angry mob tends to do) instead of trying to participate in an honest discussion of the subject.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:43:38
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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Peregrine wrote: Asherian Command wrote:"Yeah you person who plays games. Yeah you are dead. Also your worse than ISIS!" *Smiles and winks at the camera before setting the building on fire* Again with the straw man arguments. Nobody is saying that gamers are worse than ISIS, or even remotely close to that level of evil. Also, you don't seem to understand the difference between "gamers" (in the context of "gamers are dead") and "people who play games". Perhaps you should try to understand the "gamers are dead" argument before you criticize it? Disable your entire credibility by attacking a large multicultured community with invalid criticism. It's entirely valid criticism. Even you are spending more time complaining about how you're under attack than addressing the actual issues. And you're doing it in a clearly emotional way that suggests you're just lashing out at the enemy (you know, like an angry mob tends to do) instead of trying to participate in an honest discussion of the subject. Haha but they have. A video game journalist literally claimed gamers are worse than ISIS. I understand the argument it is against white men who play games. And guess what I am a white man Who plays games It is not entirely valid criticism. You are just saying it is. You can't use absolutes in this argument. I am not saying all journalists are evil. I am saying a portion of them are corrupt. You can't say that. You can't say it is an angry mob. That destroys your credibility in the entire debate. Also a fun article for yall. http://theralphretort.com/female-gamers-perspective-on-gamergate/
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 05:45:39
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 05:59:00
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Douglas Bader
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So now we're quoting a single random idiot saying something stupid (which may or may not have been intended as a serious statement) as a relevant fact? You really don't want that precedent.
I understand the argument it is against white men who play games.
No it isn't. I'm a white man who plays games and I don't feel targeted at all by any of this. There is nothing wrong with being a white man and playing video games. Please try to understand the arguments the other side is making before attempting to counter them.
http://theralphretort.com/female-gamers-perspective-on-gamergate/
Oh good, more "feminism ruins everything" nonsense. How exactly is having a female main character (dressed in sensible armor) for the next Call of Battlefield game supposed to "destroy gaming"? Will the AK-47 be overpowered because women have an inherent +10 bonus to assault rifles? Will watching her rescue a male hostage magically uninstall all of my other games?
(And I once again notice that, despite this supposedly being about honesty in gaming journalism, you're once again posting articles about how feminists/SJWs are bad.)
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 06:00:12
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 06:00:24
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Kid_Kyoto
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Peregrine wrote:
Oh good, more "feminism ruins everything" nonsense. How exactly is having a female main character (dressed in sensible armor) for the next Call of Battlefield game supposed to "destroy gaming"? Will the AK-47 be overpowered because women have an inherent +10 bonus to assault rifles? Will watching her rescue a male hostage magically uninstall all of my other games?
Is there a catchy hashtag for a group of people who believes that Call of Battlefield is destroying gaming, female characters or no?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 06:00:54
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Asherian you need to chill. Frankly Peregine has his own views and he's not going to change them and he's entitled to that. And frankly, I don't think he's worth the trouble considering he's the type who would make take sarcastic retorts as fuel for his own arguments
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My warmachine batrep & other misc stuff blog
http://sining83.blogspot.com/ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 06:23:24
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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Again with the straw man arguments. Nobody is saying that gamers are worse than ISIS, or even remotely close to that level of evil.
Er... Peregrine, you might actually want to step back, read what several things that actual journalists have posted about this, and actually come back when you are actually informed because infact people did infact state that gamers were worse then ISIS.
http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/comments/2ep04f/devin_faraci_writer_for_badassdigest_i_have_more/
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 06:56:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 07:03:58
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Douglas Bader
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Maybe you should take a step back, read what has been written, and come back once you're informed. That comment says that anti-SJWs are worse than ISIS, not gamers. It's still a ridiculous statement, but it's an attack on a certain group of people who whine endlessly about how SJWs are horrible, not an attack on gamers in general.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 07:09:20
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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Peregrine wrote:
Maybe you should take a step back, read what has been written, and come back once you're informed. That comment says that anti-SJWs are worse than ISIS, not gamers. It's still a ridiculous statement, but it's an attack on a certain group of people who whine endlessly about how SJWs are horrible, not an attack on gamers in general.
And several of his articles have stated that he considers both in the same group of "Anti-Quinn, anti-SJW, Gamer Manchildren" and that there is no distinction between them.
Regardless of such, it is still the comparison you were considering to be a strawman, and will be the last time I respond to you on this topic.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 07:10:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 07:29:05
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Douglas Bader
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ZebioLizard2 wrote:And several of his articles have stated that he considers both in the same group of "Anti-Quinn, anti-SJW, Gamer Manchildren" and that there is no distinction between them.
...
So let me get this straight: according to your argument he considers all gamers to be part of the same anti-Quinn anti-SJW group. But Zoe Quinn is a game developer, which presumably means she is also a gamer. So according to your interpretation of his position Zoe Quinn is a member of the anti-Quinn hate group, and worse than ISIS. Makes perfect sense to me.
(And I think the quoted tweets make it clear that he's talking about a specific group of people that happen to be gamers, not gamers as a whole.)
Regardless of such, it is still the comparison you were considering to be a strawman, and will be the last time I respond to you on this topic.
I was considering it to be a strawman, and it IS a strawman. "Anti-SJWs are worse than ISIS" is not the same thing as "gamers are worse than ISIS".
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 07:42:09
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Why do you argue with Peregrine? He makes the Dark Angels look like weak-willed ninny's who surrender at the first sign of trouble.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 07:45:44
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Dakka Veteran
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In order to advance their career a writer (that is marginal at best) uses sex as a substitute for developing real skills and talent? :::Shocked::: This has never happened in the history of the world.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/17 07:47:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 07:59:05
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Dakka Veteran
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 09:33:27
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I know, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 10:22:07
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Soo... can we get back to the actual topic instead of explaining stuff to people to lazy to actually read the thread? And Peregrine, you will never change your stance on ANYTHING so there is absolutely no point to even consider your posts, please move on or inform yourself properly before you start spouting more nonsense.
And that, is the first and last time I respond to anything you say.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 10:26:57
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Yes. Please take personal feuds to PM rather than risk provoking a trigger happy Mod.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 10:27:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 10:30:11
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Polygon has written what amounts to a veiled attack on the lovely Christina Sommers, almost falling over itself to attack her character via guilt-through-association with a "conservative think-tank".
This is why we hate the gaming media. Speak out against the points they're making and they don't try to rebut; they just attack you personally.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 10:32:10
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Polygon has written what amounts to a veiled attack on the lovely Christina Sommers, almost falling over itself to attack her character via guilt-through-association with a "conservative think-tank".
This is why we hate the gaming media. Speak out against the points they're making and they don't try to rebut; they just attack you personally.
Are we even suprised at this point?  I kind of want to give them all guns to see how long it takes before they shoot themselves in the foot, for real.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/17 10:50:17
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Friend of mine made an interesting observation about Chrstina's video: "You can tell what side she's on just by the fact that she's left the comments open." Really telling. Oh, and Dr. Sommers has already responded to Polygot's hit article. It's from an older video, but she tweeted it out as her response to Polygon's bull gak.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/17 11:02:54
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