The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption

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**Peregrine**

Sining wrote:
If people want to make males, making them make females out of some twisted desire to have everything be equal is kinda screwed up

Nobody is making them do anything. They're free to say "STFU we're not making any female PCs" if that's what they feel is right for their for-profit business.

And I'm assuming that you also object to every other case of customers demanding something that a game designer doesn't want to do? For example, game balance, which guns are included, story decisions, which console a game will be released on, etc.

**Sining**

Who even complains about guns. All game designers owe me; as a consumer, is a game that's functional. If I end up hating it anyway, I'm just not going to play it.

**TheKbob**

So, in a round-about manner, you have to thank the greater internet "bad people" theory being applied to the anonymous "bad people" at the likes of 4chan and reddit for weaseling this out?

Or maybe this is a giant pile of gross ick with a bunch of "bad people" on both sides makes it an even deeper pile of gross ick. Most of the original nonsense should have been chocked up to the greater internet "bad people" theory and moved on.

It's entertaining to watch the pile of gross ick get higher. At some point, someone will play with worse fire, and then we'll have a big pile of flaming gross ick.

**VorpalBunny74**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is pretty different when it is one game, and when it is a huge majority of games…

I'm curious - how do you want the ratio of female video game protagonists to increase?

I want to see it as a result of natural industry growth.

**TheKbob**

I won't just be prodder of the pile, but I'll even help:

http://revuelabs.com/2014/09/18/gamergate-pt-1-death-of-a-reader/

I still think we've got bigger fish to fry with the bigger new entities than worrying about "vidja game" blogs, but that's me. Most of the ones people are throwing a tussle over are ones I knew were shallow long ago and stopped frequenting. I'm a bit sad that someone at Ars would do the same since most of the their tech articles are solid. But, such is life.

**Asherian Command**

#GamerGate is a portion of this ecosystem being put on trial. It is so much more that I will get into in a series of these articles but for now let’s focus on this aspect of it. The majority of the people put in the cross hairs by #GamerGate have been largely arrogant and flippant in the majority of their responses. This is reflective of my belief that the establishment doesn’t believe it needs the public trust to sustain itself. Their myopic belief is that they are somehow immune to criticism of any kind because they exist in an ecosystem that isn’t actually driven by your participation, just your visitation. As long as you drive their traffic numbers up, they make a living, pure and simple. So why should they have to answer questions about their roles in corruption if they’re still getting your visit?

Nice find Kbob

I mean that is what is happening a boycott and a backing off of these websites.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oh FFS, do your research before posting. A quick google search for the original kickstarter shows this:

I love playing video games but I’m regularly disappointed in the limited and limiting ways women are represented.

And she's hardly the only person that has been saying those things. She just happened to start a project to bring that criticism to a larger audience and got a lot of attention because of it.

Please que this quote.

"I don't play many video games."

And your argument falls at the seems

I found that on her kickstarter.

Takes pop culture games and dissects them.

Now all of you stop dragging woman representation of video games into this thread. Leave. You are dragging this place off topic. Again. You two have been doing this over and over. Hybrid Peregene. If you want to keep throwing in your hat please remain on topic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
Now let's move on to discussing who is behind the conspiracy: is it aliens trying to cover up the mind control in the chemtrails, or the NSA trying to distract us from who really did 9/11?

*Sigh*

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I think this is a non-event. I think this is relevant, though. But for some reason, nobody is speaking about it.
Do you see why one would be relevant and not the other?

You do realize we have been talking about that the entire time, and Peregene has ignored that right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Gamergate once started out with corruption but has since evolved to be more broader, to encompase the problem of harassment and the ever growing social justice warriors who want to take away a hobby because they see it as a male dominanted form and think that is wrong.

No it hasn't, and no they don't want that. And more importantly, they couldn't if they wanted to.

Also, the use of terms such as SJW is prohibited outside of the bounds of 4chan, and as such you will be demoted to the "barely relevant" status level. Please remember that the use of terms such as "censorship" or "freedom of expression", in reference to such a ridiculous topic, is further punishable by testicular flogging. Have a good day, citizen!

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/08/the-death-of-the-gamers-and-the-women-who-killed-them/

“This is a culture war. The right side is winning, at great cost. At great personal costs to people like Anita Sarkeesian, Leigh Alexander, Zoe Quinn and even Jennifer Lawrence, and countless others who are on the frontlines of creating new worlds for women, for girls, for everyone who believes that stories matter and there are too many still untold. We are winning. We are winning because we are more resourceful, more compassionate, more culturally aware. We’re winning because we know what it’s like to fight through adversity, through shame and pain and constant reminders of our own worthlessness, and come up punching. We know we’re winning because the terrified rage of a million mouthbreathing manchild misogynists is thick as nerve gas in the air right now.
Us Social Justice Warriors – this is me, stealing that word in order to use it against my enemies- are winning the culture war by tearing up the rulebook, and there’s nothing the sad, mad little boys who hate women and queers and people of colour can do about it. Nothing, at least, that doesn’t sabotage their strategy, because they can win their game from day to day, but they’re losing the war. They can punish me for writing this, and I’m sure they will, but that will only prove my point. I’m not afraid anymore.

Every time they make an example of one of us, ten more stand up in outrage to hold her up or take her place.

We are stronger, smarter and more numerous than anyone imagined, and we are not to be fethed with.”
—
Excerpt from WHY WE’RE WINNING: SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS AND THE NEW CULTURE WAR by Laurie Penny (via femfreq)(http://laurie-penny.com/why-were-winning-social-justice-warriors-and-the-new-culture-war/)

Ahem. You were saying

This is the known agenda

I am calling them what they call themselves.

If they identify as SJWs I am going to call them SJWs.

**H.B.M.C.**

Here's an interview with the mysterious anonymous X-box developer.

And here's someone replying to the execrable hypocrite Leigh Alexander.

VorpalBunny74 wrote:
I'm curious - how do you want the ratio of female video game protagonists to increase?

But that's just it, the ratio of female protagonists shouldn't increase. It shouldn't decrease either. It should rise and fall within the context of the stories being told. If the story requires or would be better told with a female protagonist, then it should have one. If the story requires or would be better told with a male protagonist, then it should have one. If the story requires or would be better told with a wheelchair-bound transexual half-Mexican/half-goldfish protagonist, then it should have one.

Context, as always, is key.

**Peregrine**

Asherian Command wrote:
Now all of you stop dragging woman representation of video games into this thread. Leave. You are dragging this place off topic. Again. You two have been doing this over and over. Hybrid Peregene. If you want to keep throwing in your hat please remain on topic.

You know it's funny, you complain about how I'm making off-topic posts about this but you keep talking about it. Remember this image you posted?

Perhaps you should follow your own demands and leave this thread.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
But that's just it, the ratio of female protagonists shouldn't increase. It shouldn't decrease either. It should rise and fall within the context of the stories being told. If the story requires or would be better told with a female protagonist, then it should have one. If the story requires or would be better told with a male protagonist, then it should have one. If the story requires or would be better told with a wheelchair-bound transexual half-Mexican/half-goldfish protagonist, then it should have one.

Which of the following is more likely:

1) Most gaming stories require a male protagonist for story reasons.

or

2) Games, like society in general, default to a male protagonist unless there's a specific reason to do something else.

(Hint: #2 is the obvious answer.)

**H.B.M.C.**

Peregrine wrote:
Which of the following is more likely:

1) Most gaming stories require a male protagonist for story reasons.

or

2) Games, like society in general, default to a male protagonist unless there's a specific reason to do something else.

(Hint: #2 is the obvious answer.)

Option 1 is obviously false. Option 2 doesn't really prove anything.

**ZebioLizard2**

Peregrine wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:
Now all of you stop dragging woman representation of video games into this thread. Leave. You are dragging this place off topic. Again. You two have been doing this over and over. Hybrid Peregene. If you want to keep throwing in your hat please remain on topic.

You know it's funny, you complain about how I'm making off-topic posts about this but you keep talking about it.

You heard it from him people, ignore him and his off-topic posts.

http://kazerad.tumblr.com/post/97785035848/no-long-essay-pushing-my-thoughts-or-anything

**Sining**

With response to option 2, I'd say stop trying to social engineer people. We will play what we want to play and people will create what they want to create. This is why there are so many people saying that some people are trying to push their social agenda into games.

**Peregrine**

Sining wrote:
With response to option 2, I'd say stop trying to social engineer people. We will play what we want to play and people will create what they want to create. This is why there are so many people saying that some people are trying to push their social agenda into games.

Yeah, we as customers should just STFU and buy the latest Call of Battlefield game every year because it's just not fair to ask those poor oppressed game developers to change their products.

**Sining**

You mean like how people in this thread have said suck it up, the gaming press is like this?

**Peregrine**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Option 2 doesn't really prove anything.

Of course it does. If the industry is defaulting to male characters unless given a specific reason not then that's exactly what people are complaining about. In a sexism-free industry the "no preference" characters would be a roughly equal mix of men and women. So if you're accepting the claim that there aren't a ton of stories that require a male protagonist to work properly then the large majority of male characters is a sign of sexism.

**Sining**

This is like people complaining hooters only hires female wait staff

**ZebioLizard2**

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bxy29Y4CMAAwOAa.jpg:large Women being discouraged from the industry not due to "gamers"

**Peregrine**

Sining wrote:
You mean like how people in this thread have said suck it up, the gaming press is like this?

No, that wasn't the point. Nobody is saying that the gaming press is like this so just STFU and deal with it, the actual point was that we really need to look at the reasons why people care so much about this when everyone has known that "honest game journalism" has been a joke for years/decades. When the same people who are outraged about this one incident have spent years quietly not caring about the problem it starts to look like honesty in journalism is little more than a pretense to avoid admitting that it's really about a personal vendetta against specific people and/or "SJWs".

**H.B.M.C.**

Peregrine wrote:
Of course it does. If the industry is defaulting to male characters unless given a specific reason not then that's exactly what people are complaining about.

Prove it. Prove that they default to male characters unless given a specific reason not to. Until you can I'll write the above sentence off as the ramblings of someone who still doesn't really understand the topic.

Peregrine wrote:
In a sexism-free industry...

Making games with male protagonists isn't sexist. Making games that appeal to major demographics - demographics that far outweigh their smaller competing demographics - isn't wrong either. Games that allow for complete customisation, including whether the character is male or female, often have that character as secondary to the plot, Mass Effect being a good example. Male or female, Shep does the same thing in that game - what's between their legs never really factors into the major events of that story.

Peregrine wrote:
So if you're accepting the claim that there aren't a ton of stories that require a male protagonist to work properly then the large majority of male characters is a sign of sexism.

No, because that logic... isn't.

Sining wrote:
This is like people complaining hooters only hires female wait staff

Perhaps a closer comparison would be lambasting Chipendales as sexist because they don't include women in their shows.

**Peregrine**

Sining wrote:
This is like people complaining hooters only hires female wait staff

You're right, it is. Hooters is part of the same problem where women are treated as objects for male entertainment. And do you really want to argue that video games are like Hooters, so it's entirely understandable that they'd be full of sexy women for all the men to enjoy? I don't know about you, but I have higher standards for my games and don't really want to be part of the same community as anyone that supports that kind of thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Prove it. Prove that they default to male characters unless given a specific reason not to.

Why do I need to prove it when you just admitted it? We know that a majority of video game characters are male, and you just rejected the idea that most games require a male protagonist for story reasons. So if the games which do require a male protagonist aren't enough to account for the disproportionate number of male characters then the only possible answer is that game developers tend to default to a male character unless they have a specific reason to have a female character.

Making games with male protagonists isn't sexist.

No, of course it isn't, and nobody is arguing that it is. The issue here is the majority of games having male protagonists, despite not having any compelling reason to do so. Consider an analogy with racism: nobody is going to throw out accusations of racism if a company with two employees is all white. But if you have a company with thousands of employees and they're still all white you're going to be asking some awkward questions about their hiring policies.

Making games that appeal to major demographics - demographics that far outweigh their smaller competing demographics - isn't wrong either.

The demographic issue is not a very significant one. Character gender is not something that has a major effect on gameplay, and I seriously doubt that having a female PC is going to have a major impact on sales to men.

Games that allow for complete customisation, including whether the character is male or female, often have that character as secondary to the plot, Mass Effect being a good example. Male or female, Shep does the same thing in that game - what's between their legs never really factors into the major events of that story.

This is also true of many games that don't have customization. Does the gender of the main character in the latest Call of Battlefield game matter? Of course not, the main character is just a faceless killing machine and the single player "story" is little more than a warmup round before you move on to multiplayer.

**Sining**

Women have a choice whether or not to work in Hooters. Hooters itself is very clear about what kind of image and brand it's trying to cultivate. To say that it's just about treating women as objects for entertainment kind of takes away the agency of the women who work for hooters.

And also it's hardly the same unless you're saying gamers like to stare at male player characters for male entertainment.

**Bullockist**

Peregrine wrote:

Making games that appeal to major demographics - demographics that far outweigh their smaller competing demographics - isn't wrong either.

The demographic issue is not a very significant one. Character gender is not something that has a major effect on gameplay, and I seriously doubt that having a female PC is going to have a major impact on sales to men.

\But apparently the reverse is true. I'm currently confused on who is sexist here

On the wholse sexual depictions of women in games. People like sex , no amount of figurative dressing people in grey overalls will change this . I for one like having attractive sexual depictions of women in my games , i'd like to add that most men in games seem to be attractive unless they are "character actors".

This neutralisation of things is going to make games very boring, very boring. Lets face it games are a lot about eye caNdy and flashing lights, at their very basic level that's what they are, the focus on graphics by the public and professional bloggers shows this. Story in games is quite often predictable and boring, I for one hate knowing where the whole cutscene is going 10 seconds in, but sadly that's where the writing is atmn. So we are left with eye candy and gameplay to sell games. Guess what sex sells. people like sex, they will always like sex. FFs in sales I'd say over 50% of my sales were due to sexual attraction/flirting, that is reality and no amount of anti sex feminism is going to change that.

There will be sex in games forever. I for one object to the demonisation of sex (and sexual attraction) , sex is natural and one of the driving forces of humanity.

**VorpalBunny74**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
But that's just it, the ratio of female protagonists shouldn't increase. It shouldn't decrease either. It should rise and fall within the context of the stories being told. If the story requires or would be better told with a female protagonist, then it should have one. If the story requires or would be better told with a male protagonist, then it should have one. If the story requires or would be better told with a wheelchair-bound transexual half-Mexican/half-goldfish protagonist, then it should have one.

Context, as always, is key.

I agree that protagonists should remain quota free - if a story was conceived with a male/female lead in mind, that shouldn't change based on external factors.

However I do want to see more games with female protagonists, and for selfish reasons. I don't try and self identify with game characters, so I generally pick a female option if available. It's escapism after all

But I'm not all gamers, so I wouldn't demand any devs change their games to suit me

**Bullockist**

VorpalBunny74 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
But that's just it, the ratio of female protagonists shouldn't increase. It shouldn't decrease either. It should rise and fall within the context of the stories being told. If the story requires or would be better told with a female protagonist, then it should have one. If the story requires or would be better told with a male protagonist, then it should have one. If the story requires or would be better told with a wheelchair-bound transexual half-Mexican/half-goldfish protagonist, then it should have one.

Context, as always, is key.

I agree that protagonists should remain quota free - if a story was conceived with a male/female lead in mind, that shouldn't change based on external factors.

However I do want to see more games with female protagonists, and for selfish reasons. I don't try and self identify with game characters, so I generally pick a female option if available. It's escapism after all

But I'm not all gamers, so I wouldn't demand any devs change their games to suit me

I completely agree , I mostly use female characters but that is to escape male voice acting.

**Peregrine**

Bullockist wrote:
But apparently the reverse is true.

I don't think the reverse is true. I don't think it's going to result in major sales changes if a game has a female PC. I think that most customers will buy or not buy a game based on other factors. But I think there is enough value in trying to improve diversity a bit to make some changes, even if the number of people added to the community as a result is not a huge percentage.

So we are left with eye candy and gameplay to sell games.

And you know what I have if I want eye candy? Porn. Why would anyone want to bother with video game women in chainmail bikinis when there's a whole internet full of much better sexual material to watch? All the "sex sells" attitude does is clutter up the game and contribute to giving gamers a reputation for being immature losers who obsess over imaginary women because they can't get any real dates.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Hooters itself is very clear about what kind of image and brand it's trying to cultivate.

Yes, and that image is a problem. You can't just dismiss an inappropriate attitude by saying "they're honest about it, so it's no big deal". An honest sexist is still a sexist, just like an honest racist is still a racist.

To say that it's just about treating women as objects for entertainment kind of takes away the agency of the women who work for hooters.

The fact that some women are willing to be entertainment in exchange for money doesn't magically erase the problems with it.

And also it's hardly the same unless you're saying gamers like to stare at male player characters for male entertainment.

That's exactly what you were saying by comparing gaming to Hooters. Hooters only hires women because that's what their male target market wants to see. If you're going to say that character gender choice in gaming works the same way then you're saying that it's all based on what men want to see: male PCs that are what men dream of being, with female characters (when they exist at all) being pretty scenery. And you're supporting the idea of games being designed around the male customer's perspective and dismissing any other potential customers, just like Hooters does.

**Sining**

I don't think it's sexist in any way. You're assuming that they're doing this because they don't want to hire men cause they're men and not because it goes against their corporate branding. That's like saying it's totally racism for NSA not to hire native afghans that just moved to USA.

And what problems? You're coming from a side where the most vocal supporters have been saying "HEY, LEAVE ZOE ALONE. It's her body! She can sleep with all those men if she wants, even if she's in a relationship" and you're having issues with women WORKING in hooters for a job??

Also careful there with that last point. You're projecting a lot. Especially without any evidence for someone who keeps wanting to see the evidence.

**Peregrine**

Sining wrote:
You're assuming that they're doing this because they don't want to hire men cause they're men and not because it goes against their corporate branding.

...

Their corporate branding is sexist. This is like saying that the KKK isn't refusing to hire black people because they're black, it's just that black people go against their organization's branding.

You're coming from a side where the most vocal supporters have been saying "HEY, LEAVE ZOE ALONE. It's her body! She can sleep with all those men if she wants, even if she's in a relationship" and you're having issues with women WORKING in hooters for a job??

Do you honestly not see a difference between what someone does in private and having a business based on LOOK AT ALL THE SEXY WOMEN? People aren't defending Zoe Quinn because they approve of her sex life, they're defending her because it's none of our business who she sleeps with and digging into her private life is completely inappropriate. Hooters, on the other hand, is taking a public position and it's entirely appropriate to criticize that position.

Also, you'll notice that I didn't criticize individual women for working at Hooters, I criticized Hooters itself.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, since this is now hopelessly off-topic, I'll just end this by repeating what I said initially: defending gender choices in gaming by appealing to a comparison with Hooters is NOT a comparison that favors gaming.

**Sining**

Does the KKK even HIRE people in the first place -_-

**Soladrin**

Well done people, once again you managed to completely go off topic and talk about sexism, again. There is a thread for that already, go there.

Also, Hybrid, Peregrine, you are the guys who keep bringing up Anita and Zoe, this topic isn't about them.

**Asherian Command**

Soladrin wrote:
Well done people, once again you managed to completely go off topic and talk about sexism, again. There is a thread for that already, go there.

Also, Hybrid, Peregrine, you are the guys who keep bringing up Anita and Zoe, this topic isn't about them.

I think i've said this and told them if they keep dragging the conversation off topic that they should leave.

Ugh. Sometimes I wonder what goes through peoples brains when they decide to bring a topic off conversation.

Its great people are talking about the 'sexism' in gaming, but this is the wrong thread to do It. I have even said which thread they should talk about it in.

Anyone decrying harassment or misgony should look deep at their movement and see that theirs is guilty of this as well. Where the followers of both movements have that problem that small minority is just dragging their message down.

But this time for the first time, the minority is the the majority. And I am surprised to find out it is the journalists this time who have the largest amount of it. They have a deep sexism and people who hate men, and have an agenda to fix. If anyone disagrees with me read the links I posted and the quote I posted from the feminist social warriors news post.

That is their agenda. They are pushing for this. They are a problem. They keep rearing their heads in this mess, and keep attacking people. They make gross exaggerations and paint in generalizations.

They claim to use freedom of speech, but when someone speaks up they label it as harassment and censor it.

See thunderf00t as a great example. He was banned for speaking up. And saying "What the hell are you idiots doing?"

Also funny thing (https://medium.com/@cainejw/the-factual-feminist-a-factcheck-f5ae584f56da)

This is a factual article. This an article that takes a neutral stance and criticizes. And these same type of articles are censored by the ones who are being criticized.

And the article brings up great facts and ideas.

Ethnography is the study and research of people and cultures through data collection. One of the chief forms of data collection in ethnography is the interview. However, to do any sort of formal or informal communication, you must approach the culture or people with respect as an outsider.

Only after the culture or people trust you can you begin data collection. This is what Sommers did. She entered into the discussion, observed how we functioned, and then entered to discuss with us as a group to find our perspective on things.

She did ethnographic research, and ethnographic research is a valid form of research. If you have a problem with utilizing ethnographic research, I suggest you march to the nearest Anthropology department and tell them what you think about ethnography.

Opinion time:

Next time, consider utilizing Sommers’s methods when speaking about a culture or a people. You may find that you have more success when you approach a people with respect and a willingness to learn instead of entering the group with labels, jargon, insults, and degradation.

Another article on gamergate/journalistic ethics (http://techraptor.net/2014/09/18/game-journalism-ethics-needs-change/)

(sign this for journalists to publicly display ethics policies http://www.change.org/p/video-game-journalism-outlets-please-publicly-display-with-easy-access-your-ethics-policy-statement)

**CorporateLogo**

Have you wondered what what Milo Yiannopoulos wrote about gamers in the past?

There's no doubt violent games play a part in the deeds of some wackos, such as Elliot "killer virgin" Rodger. Rodger didn't kill because the video games made violent, but the games did help to shape his violent fantasies. They provided a framework through which his online bloodlust turned into real-world slaughter.

As to whether a video game might make you any more likely to go out and commit a rape, the research says probably not. You were most likely going to do it anyway. But what's new about GTA Online, the thing that leaves me scratching my head and thinking these people must have something a bit wrong with them, is that these dorky deviants aren't just raping computer-generated characters, as has happened in some previous fames.

Because it's an online game they're modding, they get to rape other real-life players. Some of those other players are very young: GTA is rated 18, but has hundreds of thousands of teen addicts. Listen to the videos at Kotaku and judge for yourself how old some of the victims are.

The online version of the game, which had a chaotic launch plagued by technical snafus, has all but been abandoned by its developers, who are, I am told by those in the know, concentrating their efforts on the PC version and don't seem to care what's happening on their online platform.

But something tells me Rockstar wouldn't much care even if it had the resources to clamp down on the modding craze which enables users to modify the games way outside the parameters of the original programmer's vision. After all, this is a developer which itself launches games with secret shagging levels on them - then saturates future games with jokey references to the fact - and which hired Max Clifford to make sure its games caused the most outrage possible.

It's that brazen, sociopathic, adolescent attitude from Rockstar – founded in Scotland – that most people will find grating, together with a reckless lack of care about games that depict violent, public rape in quite granular detail. Hijacked by nerd rapists, GTA Online is now not only somewhere you wouldn't allow your children but it's somewhere no normal adult would want to go either.

Personally, I don't understand grown men wasting their lives playing computer games. It seems a bit sad to me. I mean, we've all been sucked in to a few rounds of Candy Crush, but if you want to shoot a gun, why not go to a rifle range? I suspect most people who play these games have never held a firearm in real life.