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I have seem ALOT of player selling their tau armies.... Why is that? Are they just not good anymore? Did the new rules make them worst? What's going on? Lol

Unsure what you mean?

I think its just as case of YMMV imo..

If people are selling Tau off its because they are still considered "too good" and people are selling them off as they their opponents may be refusing to play against them too many times?

People woke up to the fact that lazy Riptide spam abuse isn't necessarily an easy auto-win in most pick up games anymore, though I put on emphasis on the word lazy because some people use multiple Riptides in a list that is wholly well thought out and play it against better players.

Either that or people have acknowledged that Eldar are the best top-tier army and are migrating to that.

 happygolucky wrote:
If people are selling Tau off its because they are still considered "too good" and people are selling them off as they their opponents may be refusing to play against them too many times?

I disagree with this and think its a combo of both the OP and maybe a little of what you are getting at. The Tau are nowhere near as strong as they were in 6th edition, in fact I would rank them on par with other armies like Imperial Guard, Space Marines and Necrons for example. I state this because two of the best "net" builds for the Tau were the Taudar and the "Ovesa Star which you can no longer do either of them thanks to 7th edition. I could see several Tau players selling this army for that reason, or even the fact they just don't like how 7th has also affected them adversely, especially in regards to what several of the new books are able to run.

Now to say "people are not playing them" I have yet to come across this in my local meta or in both the Meta in Maryland and Washington State when I visited family in both cases. People who refuse to play others armies are typically in my experience the players that either refuse to change their tactics or lists, have never played it but have heard the "net fear" of facing it or are just the type of person you would be better off not playing to begin with. Are the Tau a strong army? Yes, I would rank them among the upper Mid Tier (Eldar really is the only TOP army right now) but they are by no means broken to the point where people will refuse games with you.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
People woke up to the fact that lazy Riptide spam abuse isn't necessarily an easy auto-win in most pick up games anymore, though I put on emphasis on the word lazy because some people use multiple Riptides in a list that is wholly well thought out and play it against better players. Either that or people have acknowledged that Eldar are the best top-tier army and are migrating to that.

Riptide spam was NEVER an easy auto win for the Tau player as long as you knew what you were doing when you played against it, especially with certain armies like Space Marines having some great tools at dealing with MC's in general. They are a great unit and can do a lot, but they have plenty of drawbacks to make a x3 Riptide list beatable.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
People woke up to the fact that lazy Riptide spam abuse isn't necessarily an easy auto-win in most pick up games anymore, though I put on emphasis on the word lazy because some people use multiple Riptides in a list that is wholly well thought out and play it against better players. Either that or people have acknowledged that Eldar are the best top-tier army and are migrating to that.

Riptide spam was NEVER an easy auto win for the Tau player as long as you knew what you were doing when you played against it, especially with certain armies like Space Marines having some great tools at dealing with MC's in general. They are a great unit and can do a lot, but they have plenty of drawbacks to make a x3 Riptide list beatable.

Yeah so long as you play White Scars or use Grav Centurions, you're fine. If he didn't take the 5 point upgrade that gave him interceptor, and wasn't smart enough to use the reserves function, maybe, just maybe, a drop pod list might have worked. But otherwise forget it, if you planned for your average pick up game or brought the sort of AP2 you did before the Tau Dex dropped, you were at a massive disadvantage.

I witnessed games with Riptides that were effectively determined before they were started so many times at my local clubs I lost count, and that was after I ran out of fingers and thumbs to count them on.

 gmaleron wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
If people are selling Tau off its because they are still considered "too good" and people are selling them off as they their opponents may be refusing to play against them too many times?

I disagree with this and think its a combo of both the OP and maybe a little of what you are getting at. The Tau are nowhere near as strong as they were in 6th edition, in fact I would rank them on par with other armies like Imperial Guard, Space Marines and Necrons for example. I state this because two of the best "net" builds for the Tau were the Taudar and the "Ovesa Star which you can no longer do either of them thanks to 7th edition. I could see several Tau players selling this army for that reason, or even the fact they just don't like how 7th has also affected them adversely, especially in regards to what several of the new books are able to run.

Now to say "people are not playing them" I have yet to come across this in my local meta or in both the Meta in Maryland and Washington State when I visited family in both cases. People who refuse to play others armies are typically in my experience the players that either refuse to change their tactics or lists, have never played it but have heard the "net fear" of facing it or are just the type of person you would be better off not playing to begin with. Are the Tau a strong army? Yes, I would rank them among the upper Mid Tier (Eldar really is the only TOP army right now) but they are by no means broken to the point where people will refuse games with you.

Well I never said I was totally right, I did say "If"..

It was just something I had observed in Tau threads a few times, hence why I said YMMV..

They lost the option to ally and lost the option to join a buffmander to a riptide. That and mealstorm missions killed them as a viable army in 7th ed.

I also think that maelstrom had a big impact on the tau. Back in 6th Edition Tau was most of the time: "This is my aegis and I will not leave it!" But nowadays you have to be more "mobile". As a Tau Player you can either switch to piranhas or krisis or you just sell your whole army as it gets harder to win these matchups as Tau.

I don't use Riptides and at the moment my Tau are getting minced, a lot of the Codexes have got a lot stronger in 7th and I find most of my casulities happen during the psychic phase. My last game a space wolf player cast living lightning and Tempest and wiped out a unit of Crisis Suits which is a big blow to any Tau player

Fauk wrote:
I also think that maelstrom had a big impact on the tau. Back in 6th Edition Tau was most of the time: "This is my aegis and I will not leave it!" But nowadays you have to be more "mobile". As a Tau Player you can either switch to piranhas or krisis or you just sell your whole army as it gets harder to win these matchups as Tau.

I would think that this would see a return of Fish of Fury. FW squads in Devilfish backed up with Crisis suits. AKA a fluffy Tau army not just Riotide spam.

Not sure if it was ever true, but someone told me that pure Tau never actually won any major tournaments in 6th. Winning armies with anything Tau-related was always used as allies, namely Taudar.
7th killed all that, MC's smash, no area terrain for Pathfinders/Riptides to dip their toes in and the requirement of being mobile and not hide behind aegis for 5+ turns really made Tau on level with most other armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Fauk wrote:
I also think that maelstrom had a big impact on the tau. Back in 6th Edition Tau was most of the time: "This is my aegis and I will not leave it!" But nowadays you have to be more "mobile". As a Tau Player you can either switch to piranhas or krisis or you just sell your whole army as it gets harder to win these matchups as Tau.

I would think that this would see a return of Fish of Fury. FW squads in Devilfish backed up with Crisis suits. AKA a fluffy Tau army not just Riotide spam.

Not sure if I remember it 100% correctly, but didn't Fish of Fury only work due to the fact that the Devilfish didn't block LOS because it was a skimmer in 4th?

 Zewrath wrote:
Not sure if it was ever true, but someone told me that pure Tau never actually won any major tournaments in 6th. Winning armies with anything Tau-related was always used as allies, namely Taudar.
7th killed all that, MC's smash, no area terrain for Pathfinders/Riptides to dip their toes in and the requirement of being mobile and not hide behind aegis for 5+ turns really made Tau on level with most other armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Fauk wrote:
I also think that maelstrom had a big impact on the tau. Back in 6th Edition Tau was most of the time: "This is my aegis and I will not leave it!" But nowadays you have to be more "mobile". As a Tau Player you can either switch to piranhas or krisis or you just sell your whole army as it gets harder to win these matchups as Tau.

I would think that this would see a return of Fish of Fury. FW squads in Devilfish backed up with Crisis suits. AKA a fluffy Tau army not just Riotide spam.

Not sure if I remember it 100% correctly, but didn't Fish of Fury only work due to the fact that the Devilfish didn't block LOS because it was a skimmer in 4th?

Honestly I don't know I more or less meant taking FWs in Devilfish perhaps not the actually tactic from back then.

Maybe too boring to play and in maelstrom missions Tau may have some problems.
The usual setup, all Warriors behind an ADL doesn't work anymore.
Poor Tau.

.

Tau are still good with plenty of scary units to watch out for, but they aren't top tier any more as they no longer have battle brothers. Many of the best builds relied on Eldar or Space Marine allies (plus things like Coteaz as well). I'd say they are maybe the fifth ranked army now behind Eldar, SMs, Daemons and IG.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
I have seem ALOT of player selling their tau armies.... Why is that? Are they just not good anymore? Did the new rules make them worst? What's going on? Lol

Still real good, still competitive. But the meta has moved strongly Away from Gunlines. And someone who can't run Tau without a Gunline, can no longer compete...

pinecone77 wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
I have seem ALOT of player selling their tau armies.... Why is that? Are they just not good anymore? Did the new rules make them worst? What's going on? Lol

Still real good, still competitive. But the meta has moved strongly Away from Gunlines. And someone who can't run Tau without a Gunline, can no longer compete...

That's short-sighted.

In 2nd Edition, foot-slogging and gunline armies reigned supreme.
In 3rd Edition, MSU mechanized armies reigned supreme.
In 4th Edition, the gunline reigned supreme.
In 5th Edition, MSU mechanized armies reigned supreme.
in 6th Edition, the gunline reigned supreme.
In 7th Edition, the MSU mechanized armies reign supreme.

I wonder what 8th edition will be like?

The seasaw of balance. you try to get away from one dominant style, but go too far and make the opposite dominant.

Kodus to 7th so far though, that MSU mech is only SLIGHTLY higher, and even that is partly thanks to the OP WS.

Might have something to do with no more Buffmander with a Riptide, or no more Taudar.

Now Tau have become bit harder to win with, so people are probably migrating to something they can easily spam something and win with *cough*eldar*cough*

Tau are not as competitive as they were in 6th. In 6th edition we had the ability to join ICs to Riptides which brought us the O'Vesa Star, we had the ability to buff our armies with Eldar Psychic Support, and we had the Bomb. But even then, short of the O'VesaStar, MSU riptide Spam, and the Bomb Tau really didn't have many dominant builds. Tau's primary role was relegated to allies for Eldar and Space Marines.

Now, in 7th the O'Vesa Star is gone, Riptides no longer have the BuffCommander or Psychic Support, and the Gunline is basically gone. And there are plenty of armies which hard counter the Bomb. That leaves MSU Riptide builds and thanks to ObSec the FisOFury has made somewhat of a comeback. Reptiles have been dropped a peg as well due to smash, and the prevalence of Knights. Not to mention Invisibility.

Tau aren't dead, we can put out some hurt against some good armies. We can handle a a couple of Knights, Serpents, ObSec Marines, Necron flyers etc, but now there are some pretty nasty counters out there. Daemon Summoning, Adamantine Oances, and mobile CentStars, whether sits Gate, or in Space Puppy Pods, we get hammered pretty hard.

Tau are being marginalized and will be more a spoiler army. We've got enough good matchups to do well enough, but we are relegated to upper middle of the pack in many cases. Tau won't compete with many of the other dominant builds, will remain strong against others, especially good TMC(Take Most Comers) builds, but there are now enough dominant and extreme builds to hammer Tau. It would take getting very lucky to make it through all the games in a GT to not hit a bad matchup, and the number of bad matchups is growing quickly. SW and GK just made that worse.

O'vesa Star is still a viable build, thanks to a weird wording. An IC can't join a unit that contains a monstrous creature. It says nothing if the IC IS the monstrous creature. Therefor, you can still join it to units.

 krodarklorr wrote:
O'vesa Star is still a viable build, thanks to a weird wording. An IC can't join a unit that contains a monstrous creature. It says nothing if the IC IS the monstrous creature. Therefor, you can still join it to units.

Except that every major tournament to date has ruled otherwise. You may be able to Join O'Vesa to a unit, but that would simultaneously invalidate any other ICs permission to do so. As you join the unit in deployment, it's difficult to enforce an order of operations in a simultaneous situation.

Note, even if what you said was true, it would only allow O'Vesa to join a unit, and still invalidates the original O'Vesa Star as even O'Vesa can't join another Riptide.

BuffCommander
O'Vesa
Tripple Dual MP Crisis with target Locks

Would be a viable unit with majority T6 and lots of firepower, sadly it's illegal in every major tournament to date.

Jees this game moves fast...It seems like yesterday that everyone was saying Tau were unbeatable.

I'm not having a go at anyone, I'm just genuinely surprised at the rate of change.

 Zagman wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
O'vesa Star is still a viable build, thanks to a weird wording. An IC can't join a unit that contains a monstrous creature. It says nothing if the IC IS the monstrous creature. Therefor, you can still join it to units.

Except that every major tournament to date has ruled otherwise. You may be able to Join O'Vesa to a unit, but that would simultaneously invalidate any other ICs permission to do so. As you join the unit in deployment, it's difficult to enforce an order of operations in a simultaneous situation.

Note, even if what you said was true, it would only allow O'Vesa to join a unit, and still invalidates the original O'Vesa Star as even O'Vesa can't join another Riptide.

BuffCommander
O'Vesa
Tripple Dual MP Crisis with target Locks

Would be a viable unit with majority T6 and lots of firepower, sadly it's illegal in every major tournament to date.

Dual MP crisis with locks and a crisis buff'vre are completely legal with ovesa on the other hand.
Buff'vre is not as good as buffmander, but he's cheaper.

Still not that great of a build though, but its doable.

I would think that this would see a return of Fish of Fury. FW squads in Devilfish backed up with Crisis suits. AKA a fluffy Tau army not just Riotide spam.

My current tau list use the fish of fury. Aun Shi in a Devilfish with 11 Fire Warriors with hopefully markerligh support.

But a real question is what makes a codex 'top tier'?
I have run twin riptide lists a few times, gun lines behind aegis defence lines like twice and the o'vesa star once. But generally I use things like rail sides, crisis teams with weird weapon match ups, the tau standard fliers. Stuff that's not considered the best and competitive, and I do fine winning almost all my games.

So I don't think it's a few broken builds that make a codex better but the codex overall. Why are eldar considered the best? The only things I don't like from the codex is wave serpents and wraith knights.

The real question-why on earth did you take anshi rather than stock ethreal?
Double the price for some CC tools that will never do any good as you get routed in CC anyway is just a bad deal.



Also, eldar are currently the best not only because of the WS and the knight, but because every infantry unit they got is solid, the jetbikes are amazing, they got great psykers, the fire dragon are insaly cheap melta and some other goodiees.
They got the tools, LOTS of them. and to top it off one of the biggest MCs around and a DT that puts most HS tanks to shame.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The real question-why on earth did you take anshi rather than stock ethreal?
Double the price for some CC tools that will never do any good as you get routed in CC anyway is just a bad deal.



Also, eldar are currently the best not only because of the WS and the knight, but because every infantry unit they got is solid, the jetbikes are amazing, they got great psykers, the fire dragon are insaly cheap melta and some other goodiees.
They got the tools, LOTS of them. and to top it off one of the biggest MCs around and a DT that puts most HS tanks to shame.

Was a fun non competitive list

I think that the Farsight enclave is still awesome, and still enables you to have a buffmander attached to a Riptide O'Vesa is still an independant character.

I also don't see why Tau are bad at Maelstrom missions. Once the Enclave list dropped Tau become incredibly mobile, and I never bothered to run my Fire Warriors after that. Objective Secured Jet pack Crisis teams are tailor made for the Maelstrom. Kroot are also good because you can just infiltrate them on top of one of the objectives.

One of the guys I game with is still doing very well with his Tau, he took a 2 Riptide 1500 point lists against my Mechanicum and beat it soundly.

You can write a good Tau list without deathstars or relying on Riptides.

My regular tau opponent runs stealths, lots of firewarriors with a Fireblade, two hammerheads (one with ion cannon) and a drone squadron, with only 3 crisis suits!

Still tough to fight without a pair of riptides a buffmander and crisis spam.

It totally depends how you want to play.

Much the same as I don't use psykers in my marine army despite the fact that On paper I really should.

There seems to be a big difference between peoples definitions of competitive.

Some are discussing Tau's Competitivenss in regards to competitive play, other are discussing it in its ability to field good beer and pretzel lists.

If you are discussing Tau in terms of taking non optimal choices and still doing well against your regular opponents, you are definitely the latter. If you are discussing Tau's abiltiy to handle top tier builds and do well at GTs, then you are talking about the former.


People need to preface their responses with how they are defining "Competitive". See my previous post for a Rundown of Tau at the GT level.