Destiny (Talk, Rant, Thoughts, and pretty long reading)

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**thenoobbomb**

iproxtaco wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Since it's essentially a first person console MMO, I can't help but compare it to World of Warcraft, and it's not a favorable one.

I played multiple WoW expansions from launch onward and they all follow roughly the same template, where you spend a large amount of time leveling up through various leveling zones, eventually reach max level, then improve your weapons, armor and abilities through a combination of grinding dungeons and raids of gradually increasing difficulty, gaining reputation with max level factions, and finishing max level quest lines that can both retread previously visited areas and new ones.

The world of Destiny is nowhere near as large or as rich and vibrant as that of World of Warcraft, but it sticks to that template. The problem is that there's not a comparable amount of content at max level. WoW almost becomes a whole new game once you reach max level because there's all this new stuff to do that you didn't have access to whilst leveling up. New dungeons, new quests, new raids, new areas, new characters. Besides the single raid on Venus, you just retread everything you've already done at a higher difficulty. Even the reputation grind has you just going back to do the same things all over again. Maybe if the raid had matchmaking it wouldn't be so bad.

If you played WoW "from launch onward", you would remember there was very little to do the opening months of the game.

I meant that I've played multiple expansions from their respective launches onward, starting with Wrath of the Lich King. I hadn't played through to max level before that.

So you are comparing the amount of content from a game that has been launched 3 weeks ago with the amount of content from a game that has received several expansions? Now that is a useful comparison!

Eh no, I'm comparing the amount of content Destiny has at its end game to the amount of content a World of Warcraft expansion has at its end game. When you reached max level in Cataclysm, there were seven new dungeons, a whole new max level zone, six or seven unique factions to buy gear from, new max level quests, and, most importantly, three raids.

Everything Destiny has is a lesser version of that. I wouldn't necessarily care, because it's not like, say, Halo: Reach had more to do, and in fact, Destiny probably has a whole lot more replayability than the vast majority of games that are released today, or at least first person shooters. I care because Bungie has had five or more years development time and an almost unlimited amount of money from Activision to get it done, and they've come up far short of the transcendent experience they were hyping it to be.

You should compare it to WoW at it's release.

**iproxtaco**

I would, if I didn't start playing WoW until after Burning Crusade was released and never reached max level until Wrath of the Lich King.

**thenoobbomb**

iproxtaco wrote:
I would, if I had played WoW at its release.

Then you can't really compare it.

An expansion builds on the already existing game. A new game does not.

**iproxtaco**

thenoobbomb wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
I would, if I had played WoW at its release.

Then you can't really compare it.

An expansion builds on the already existing game. A new game does not.

I know, that's why I deliberately excluded some of what Cataclysm added, like races and updated zones and dungeons, and only talked the things that were unique to the expansion.

**thenoobbomb**

iproxtaco wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
I would, if I had played WoW at its release.

Then you can't really compare it.

An expansion builds on the already existing game. A new game does not.

I know, that's why I deliberately excluded some of what Cataclysm added, like races and updated zones and dungeons, and only talked the things that were unique to the expansion.

Yeah, and they had a whole year to work just on that.

**iproxtaco**

Kanluwen wrote:

Right, but Cataclysm was the third expansion for WoW. Blizzard is old hands at this now, and what you neglect to mention is that those "three raids" were not all available at launch. Nor was everything flawless or even playable.

Baradin Hold, Throne of the Four Winds, and the Bastion of Twilight, were all available at launch.

I played WoW up until a few months into Cataclysm. Rotting somewhere on their datacenters are my 80 Rogue, Hunter, and Paladin. I can tell you that each expansion(and even vanilla to an extent) was a mess at launch, with glaring issues left and right varying between artificially inflated difficulties for raids/dungeons to 'gate' progress(the Shattered Halls for Burning Crusade, as an example, was purposefully left overtuned as a 'gear check') or just flatout poorly designed mechanics. For the first month of Burning Crusade the new Rogue survivability tool "Cloak of Shadows" just flat did not work.

Destiny has avoided most of those issues. There are a few overtuned Strikes and the Nightfall Strikes are a bit over the top and Rare/Legendary gear has been plagued by issues with the Cryptarch(which is being fixed this week) and some of the Exotic Weapon Bounties are ridiculously obnoxious to complete...

But it's still better than BC or WOTLK launch.

Mechanically, yes, it is better than any WoW expansion launch. There are fewer things to balance and tune though.

"Five or more years development time" is stretching it, but this might include a lengthy timeframe of conceptualizing the world. The game also could have reached a state of being almost completed, then they opted to scrap their work and start anew.

Things like that are not unbelievable at all, so five years might not be as strange as you make it out to be. There also might be a lot of content planned for release free in the months between the paid DLCs.

That's all true, but chances are we'll never know what happened in those five years. All we know is that Bungie were teasing Destiny as far back as 2009, and finished developing Halo games in 2010.

**SilverMK2**

All of that is great, I'm sure. But when you drop the money for a game, you actually expect to get a game that is enjoyable to play now... not in 5 years and after a few paid expansions...

**LordofHats**

Yeah. The thing that has made PayDay 2 so massively successful is that at Launch it was already a great game, and the numerous DLC releases have just kept adding on top of it. PD2 should be seen as the golden standard in how DLC should be managed.

**PhantomViper**

iproxtaco wrote:

Eh no, I'm comparing the amount of content Destiny has at its end game to the amount of content a World of Warcraft expansion has at its end game. When you reached max level in Cataclysm, there were seven new dungeons, a whole new max level zone, six or seven unique factions to buy gear from, new max level quests, and, most importantly, three raids.

And you are comparing apples to oranges. You are trying to compare adding content to an already existing platform, a platform that has had over 10 years to mature to starting an entire new game from scratch.

iproxtaco wrote:

Everything Destiny has is a lesser version of that. I wouldn't necessarily care, because it's not like, say, Halo: Reach had more to do, and in fact, Destiny probably has a whole lot more replayability than the vast majority of games that are released today, or at least first person shooters. I care because Bungie has had five or more years development time and an almost unlimited amount of money from Activision to get it done, and they've come up far short of the transcendent experience they were hyping it to be.

And how many years did it take Blizzard to develop vanilla WoW? I started playing WoW in vanilla, the game didn't have anything resembling the amount of polish and stability that Destiny has shown at launch... For months people didn't have anything to do but run UBRS and there were countless bugs and glitches everywhere.

Come back and make this same comparison when Destiny reaches its 15 year anniversary (

) and then you might have something to compare.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote:
All of that is great, I'm sure. But when you drop the money for a game, you actually expect to get a game that is enjoyable to play now... not in 5 years and after a few paid expansions...

I'm enjoying playing Destiny, I'm sorry to hear that you're not.

**Necros**

I tried the free beta and while it was kind of fun, it didn't impress me enough to make me wanna buy it. The graphics are pretty, but I was disappointed that it's a MMO. I just don't have enough spare time to play those kinds of games anymore.

**iproxtaco**

PhantomViper wrote:

And you are comparing apples to oranges. You are trying to compare adding content to an already existing platform, a platform that has had over 10 years to mature to starting an entire new game from scratch.

Yeah, I am. I don't see how it's so different though. I'm not comparing Destiny to the entirety of World of Warcraft, I'm comparing what max level content Destiny has available, to what the WoW expansions I've played have had. I understand WoW was released over a decade ago, but to me, that just means Bungie had a potential partner in Blizzard, who are part of their publisher Activision, that they didn't learn from.

And how many years did it take Blizzard to develop vanilla WoW?

I'm not comparing Destiny to Vanillia WoW.

I started playing WoW in vanilla, the game didn't have anything resembling the amount of polish and stability that Destiny has shown at launch... For months people didn't have anything to do but run UBRS and there were countless bugs and glitches everywhere.

Come back and make this same comparison when Destiny reaches its 15 year anniversary ( ) and then you might have something to compare.

Do you see me criticizing Destiny's polish and stability? No, because it's well polished and pretty stable. I'm talking about content.

**Sharps**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-osssAKgEc

This bug shows all future DLC's applied to all planets.

And no new planets. Might be free later on.

The only thing that is interesting is that we could get to explore the Reef.

I'm not really too sure if this was ripped game content by the order of Activision, or better yet, if all of these areas, strikes, crucible modes are within just 2 DLC's, then thats cool.

**thenoobbomb**

No, it shows two of the already anounced DLCs.

**PhantomViper**

iproxtaco wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:

And you are comparing apples to oranges. You are trying to compare adding content to an already existing platform, a platform that has had over 10 years to mature to starting an entire new game from scratch.

Yeah, I am. I don't see how it's so different though. I'm not comparing Destiny to the entirety of World of Warcraft, I'm comparing what max level content Destiny has available, to what the WoW expansions I've played have had. I understand WoW was released over a decade ago, but to me, that just means Bungie had a potential partner in Blizzard, who are part of their publisher Activision, that they didn't learn from.

And how many years did it take Blizzard to develop vanilla WoW?

I'm not comparing Destiny to Vanillia WoW.

I started playing WoW in vanilla, the game didn't have anything resembling the amount of polish and stability that Destiny has shown at launch... For months people didn't have anything to do but run UBRS and there were countless bugs and glitches everywhere.

Come back and make this same comparison when Destiny reaches its 15 year anniversary ( ) and then you might have something to compare.

Do you see me criticizing Destiny's polish and stability? No, because it's well polished and pretty stable. I'm talking about content.

And I'm saying that you can't compare the two, because content, when you already have an established platform, is relatively easy to add. Its developing the platform that is the hard part.

And developing an MMO this stable for 4 completely different platforms? That is a huge achievement in and of itself. The content is the easy part and will arrive with time, or not.

**iproxtaco**

PhantomViper wrote:

And I'm saying that you can't compare the two, because content, when you already have an established platform, is relatively easy to add. Its developing the platform that is the hard part.

It's not that easy or else we'd see Blizzard pumping out content constantly. Bungie have had at least four whole years to develop this game, and I think they've come up short.

And developing an MMO this stable for 4 completely different platforms? That is a huge achievement in and of itself.

Pfft. Bungie have been developing games for decades and have extensive experience with multiplayer. They've got Activision backing them. They did a good job but I'm not gonna give them a nice shiny medal for simply developing for multiple platforms.

The content is the easy part and will arrive with time, or not.

Yeah in time. I'm making a comparison based on content available at launch because we haven't got a solid idea what we'll be getting in the future and it'd be unfair to compare Destiny to, say, the whole Wrath of the Lich King development cycle.

**gunslingerpro**

iproxtaco wrote:

The content is the easy part and will arrive with time, or not.

Yeah in time. I'm making a comparison based on content available at launch because we haven't got a solid idea what we'll be getting in the future and it'd be unfair to compare Destiny to, say, the whole Wrath of the Lich King development cycle.

See, this is what you are not understanding. You can't compare content at launch. You didn't play WoW at launch, as you've already stated. No one is asking for a medal for Bungie. They are asking you to realize that they've built a smooth and functional world with good bones. Now that that is complete, they can focus on adding all that extra content.

Sometimes you try to build the foundation before you go hanging the chandeliers.

**Ahtman**

gunslingerpro wrote:
good bones.

Except for the loot system, which is terrible and makes baby Jesus cry.

**Kanluwen**

Ahtman wrote:
gunslingerpro wrote:
good bones.

Except for the loot system, which is terrible and makes baby Jesus cry.

And is being addressed with the patch tomorrow.

After Cayde-6 takes a bag full of doorknobs to have the Cryptarch "decode" that mystery...

**iproxtaco**

gunslingerpro wrote:

See, this is what you are not understanding. You can't compare content at launch. You didn't play WoW at launch, as you've already stated. No one is asking for a medal for Bungie. They are asking you to realize that they've built a smooth and functional world with good bones.

I've already acknowledged that. I just don't see why that matters when a smooth and functional world is about the least you could expect from a AAA, four year development period, Activision backed first person shooter made by the king of first person shooters.

Now that that is complete, they can focus on adding all that extra content.

Sometimes you try to build the foundation before you go hanging the chandeliers.

If the expansions were free, maybe I'd agree with that, but they're not. I understand that Bungie are going to support the Destiny franchise for years to come, that's one of the reasons I was excited before launch, but I paid for Destiny expecting something the WoW expansions I've played. I didn't hand my money over for the promise of something more at an undisclosed future date.

**PhantomViper**

iproxtaco wrote:
gunslingerpro wrote:

See, this is what you are not understanding. You can't compare content at launch. You didn't play WoW at launch, as you've already stated. No one is asking for a medal for Bungie. They are asking you to realize that they've built a smooth and functional world with good bones.

I've already acknowledged that. I just don't see why that matters when a smooth and functional world is about the least you could expect from a AAA, four year development period, Activision backed first person shooter made by the king of first person shooters.

Now that that is complete, they can focus on adding all that extra content.

Sometimes you try to build the foundation before you go hanging the chandeliers.

If the expansions were free, maybe I'd agree with that, but they're not. I understand that Bungie are going to support the Destiny franchise for years to come, that's one of the reasons I was excited before launch, but I paid for Destiny expecting something the WoW expansions I've played. I didn't hand my money over for the promise of something more at an undisclosed future date.

Then you should have made a bit more research before buying the game.

**gunslingerpro**

iproxtaco wrote:
gunslingerpro wrote:

See, this is what you are not understanding. You can't compare content at launch. You didn't play WoW at launch, as you've already stated. No one is asking for a medal for Bungie. They are asking you to realize that they've built a smooth and functional world with good bones.

I've already acknowledged that. I just don't see why that matters when a smooth and functional world is about the least you could expect from a AAA, four year development period, Activision backed first person shooter made by the king of first person shooters.

Now that that is complete, they can focus on adding all that extra content.

Sometimes you try to build the foundation before you go hanging the chandeliers.

If the expansions were free, maybe I'd agree with that, but they're not. I understand that Bungie are going to support the Destiny franchise for years to come, that's one of the reasons I was excited before launch, but I paid for Destiny expecting something the WoW expansions I've played. I didn't hand my money over for the promise of something more at an undisclosed future date.

So you paid for a game at release, and expected mid life cycle experience? (also, didn't you pay for those? The same way you'll pay for Destiny expansions?)

You've just told me you have no idea how modern development cycles work. Yes, the world would be a better place if just throwing money and time at a game during development made it amazing. Unfortunately, most games don't hit their stride and patch all of their miss steps until after the first 6 weeks-6 months of release. Look how long it got Activision/Blizzard to get the Diablo III loot system right.

But expecting everything to be 100% perfect at launch is going to leave you disappointed the majority of the time.

**iproxtaco**

PhantomViper wrote:

Then you should have made a bit more research before buying the game.

Why? It's only a game, I'm not losing any sleep over my slight disappointment at not having a plethora of dungeons to grind.

**ZebioLizard2**

gunslingerpro wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:

The content is the easy part and will arrive with time, or not.

Yeah in time. I'm making a comparison based on content available at launch because we haven't got a solid idea what we'll be getting in the future and it'd be unfair to compare Destiny to, say, the whole Wrath of the Lich King development cycle.

See, this is what you are not understanding. You can't compare content at launch. You didn't play WoW at launch, as you've already stated. No one is asking for a medal for Bungie. They are asking you to realize that they've built a smooth and functional world with good bones. Now that that is complete, they can focus on adding all that extra content.

Sometimes you try to build the foundation before you go hanging the chandeliers.

Of course the problem is that Bungie absolutely makes sure not to call it a MMO so it can't really be compared.

Though at the same time the fact of the matter is having played WoW at launch, it certainly had more then 8 hours worth of content that much was for sure, though some things were rough for the classes (Yes because blessing of might was the top tier for retribution paladins..It only gets better and worse for them.

)

At the same time I heard there was tons of cut story content to dumb it down a bit, but who knows.

**eskimo**

I will voice an opinion that hasn't been covered from what i've not seen on the net.

I love old school shooters, Duke3d & Quake for example. Destiny doesn't appear to be much different imo atm.
We shoot a lot of enemies with some cool guns while listening to a great soundtrack. Then finish each mission with a big boss dude.

Works for me, so far.

What i dislike is the paid for dlc coming in December. I want it now. Halo and Cod are coming and if i get back into Halo 2 as i once did i doubt i'll returning to buy any dlc.

**Sharps**

This bugs me but, Isn't Light levels basically Radiance from Lord of the Rings Online,?

I'm no LOTRO expert but, sounds pretty similar as Radiance is required for raids and in Destiny funnily enough, Light is required for raids too.

**Kanluwen**

Cryptarch patch is now live.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sharps wrote:
This bugs me but, Isn't Light levels basically Radiance from Lord of the Rings Online,?

I'm no LOTRO expert but, sounds pretty similar as Radiance is required for raids and in Destiny funnily enough, Light is required for raids too.

Light is required for more than raids. It's required to level past 20, and depending on losing/gaining Light on your gear you can lose your Light levels.

**Sharps**

Kanluwen wrote:
Cryptarch patch is now live.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sharps wrote:
This bugs me but, Isn't Light levels basically Radiance from Lord of the Rings Online,?

I'm no LOTRO expert but, sounds pretty similar as Radiance is required for raids and in Destiny funnily enough, Light is required for raids too.

Light is required for more than raids. It's required to level past 20, and depending on losing/gaining Light on your gear you can lose your Light levels.

That's what exactly Radiance in LOTRO does, You need Radiance IN ORDER to do raids, and surpress the "soft level cap". If you unequip that gear with radiance, you lose it as well. Its very similar system with Destiny, Like you said, you lose Light if you unequip them.

The reason why Radiance and Light levels are bad, Is because 90% of people are locked off to Vault of Glass raid in destiny, Unless you do endless grinding of reputation to buy the good gear, or find some in drops and endgrams. Yes, they fixed the loot, but it will still take time.

**iproxtaco**

Sharps wrote:

The reason why Radiance and Light levels are bad, Is because 90% of people are locked off to Vault of Glass raid in destiny, Unless you do endless grinding of reputation to buy the good gear, or find some in drops and endgrams.

I'm level 26 right now and I haven't bought a single thing from reputation vendors. I don't even have enough reputation to buy anything from them. The amount of Light an item gives can be increased by upgrading it, which you do by earning basic experience points.

The bigger problem with the Vault of Glass is that there's no matchmaking.

**Sharps**

iproxtaco wrote:
Sharps wrote:

The reason why Radiance and Light levels are bad, Is because 90% of people are locked off to Vault of Glass raid in destiny, Unless you do endless grinding of reputation to buy the good gear, or find some in drops and endgrams.

I'm level 26 right now and I haven't bought a single thing from reputation vendors. I don't even have enough reputation to buy anything from them. The amount of Light an item gives can be increased by upgrading it, which you do by earning basic experience points.

The bigger problem with the Vault of Glass is that there's no matchmaking.

I would be totally fine with Light if I could get the way I look right. This game needs Vanity armor slots like DC Universe Online for example. The light just kinda kills the customization. But let's be honest, was leveling up before you hit 20 more fun than trying to collect the light gears?

**Kanluwen**

Sharps wrote:

I would be totally fine with Light if I could get the way I look right. This game needs Vanity armor slots like DC Universe Online for example.

It really doesn't.

The light just kinda kills the customization.

On the contrary, the fact that Light points are 'standardized' across the tiers of equipment(Exotic gear has the highest, Legendary the second highest, and Rare the lowest) means that customization works pretty well.

The thing that "kills customization" is that you cannot alter the bonus for specific pieces of gear, like +Ammo for Auto Rifles or Hand Cannons being able to be swapped for Scout Rifle.

But let's be honest, was leveling up before you hit 20 more fun than trying to collect the light gears?

Not really?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
Sharps wrote:

The reason why Radiance and Light levels are bad, Is because 90% of people are locked off to Vault of Glass raid in destiny, Unless you do endless grinding of reputation to buy the good gear, or find some in drops and endgrams.

I'm level 26 right now and I haven't bought a single thing from reputation vendors. I don't even have enough reputation to buy anything from them. The amount of Light an item gives can be increased by upgrading it, which you do by earning basic experience points.

The reputation vendors taking so long to be able to purchase things is in fact one of the largest problems, with the second largest being that the third party factions require Crucible Marks rather than Vanguard or the ability to use either/or.

The bigger problem with the Vault of Glass is that there's no matchmaking.

You wouldn't want to do the Vault of Glass with randoms. It requires communication and the willingness to shut up and listen to someone who has done it before.