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BlaxicanX wrote:Frankly, the story puts the Imperial Fists on center stage, since it almost explicitly notes that the Fists were basically single-handedly responsible for pushing the traitor legions back into the Eye of Terror during the Scouring.

Wat?

Sometimes I wonder if you guys are reading the same fluff as the rest of us when Dorn going on a vengeance quest turns into the Imperial Fists "single-handedly responsible for pushing the traitor legions back into the Eye of Terror" (while apparently the White Scars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines sat around playing space cops or something, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Frankly, the story puts the Imperial Fists on center stage, since it almost explicitly notes that the Fists were basically single-handedly responsible for pushing the traitor legions back into the Eye of Terror during the Scouring.

Wat?

Sometimes I wonder if you guys are reading the same fluff as the rest of us when Dorn going on a vengeance quest turns into the Imperial Fists "single-handedly responsible for pushing the traitor legions back into the Eye of Terror" (while apparently the White Scars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines sat around playing space cops or something, lol.

From the story, that's true. Blood angels and dark angels were to grief filled and hurt from the HH to do much. Guilliman was using his marines to play space police and writing the codex. Dorn was out kicking traitor ass to try and makeup his shortcomings from the seige of Terra. Khan was helping in this to an extent. Space wolves were telling stories drinking beer and hunting

Not really. The story just says that's what they did, not that they were the only ones.

If you read the other versions of it, Guilliman was most definitely not just playing Space Police and writing the Codex.

I mean, I don't know how one sentence:

the Imperial Fists hunted down the traitors that had turned their back on the Emperor, levelling fortress af ter fortress. Dorn immersed himself in implacable retribution until he was summoned back to Terra

turns into "Won the Scouring single handedly", lol.

That's literally "the story". One sentence. Dorn ignored all other threats than Chaos, and smashed a bunch of fortresses. I don't know how anyone could read that as "explicity notes that the Fists were basically single-handedly responsible for pushing the traitor legions back into the Eye of Terror during the Scouring" unless that was just the way you wanted it to read in your head, lol.

Heck, this quote makes it seem like the White Scars did it all:

They were at the foref ront of the Space Marine
Legions that pursued the defeated traitor Space Marines Legions into the accursed Eye of Terror, for the White Scars are relentless in the hunt and rarely allow a defeated foe to slip away.

Calm down, bro. Obvious hyperbole is obvious- that the Ultramarines went balls-deep in the Alpha Legion and Guilliman got son'd by Fulgrim means it's inarguable that they had offensive actions during the Scouring. That doesn't change the fact that most of the fluff surrounding the Scouring paints the Ultramarines as being predominantly on the defensive while Dorn and his legion of penis-envy marines took it to the traitor legions. Index Astartes all but confirms this:

Until that point Dorn had been true, noble and endearing. But now he became an avenging son. While the Ultramarines maintained order within the Imperium, the Imperial Fists hunted down the traitors, leveling fortress after fortress. Dorn led them, dressed in the black of mourning, his customary mercy set aside until the guilty were punished. While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice.

The only primarchs that I consider "incorruptable", so to speak, would be Vulkan (basically gets off on being the good guy, defending the weak, that sort of thing), and Rogal Dorn (pre-emperor death, at least. He loved him too much to betray him), and Ferrus Manus (who's pretty much always been described as stalwart and unshakeable).

The rest were pretty much a toss up, even Sangiunus was described as vain, so it's not that much of a stretch that he would choose to align with Chaos instead of dying. Roboute Guilliman was ambitious as feth, and there was even talk of him trying to become emperor 2.0 after the heresy, or at least de-facto emperor if nothing else. Khan is kind of a wild card, nobody really knows all that much about him. And the Space Wolves are perpetually angry space vikings, it's honestly more of a surprise that they HAVEN'T turned to Khorne yet, I'd imagine they'd get along well. Corax was pretty emo, and he'd probably convert in exchange for saving his legion. And the Lion... well we all know that the dark angels are THE MOST LOYAL chapter, there's ABSOLUTELY no way he has ANYTHING to do with heresy. Hell, he even gave Perturabo all his siege weapons in exchange for support as the warmaster.

Guilliman vs Fulgrim was after the Scouring... bro. Because that was by the time the Legions had become Chapters.

And you're still confusing what that sentence says. It says that's all Dorn did, not Dorn did all, lol.

There's a huge gap in what can be considered a rational contextual interpretation there. There's no "explicit" (that word, it does not mean what you think it means), and there's no "confirms", There's just your really silly way of reading it that eliminates all other logical reasoning. Which, based on your believing the Fulgrim/Guilliman confrontation happened in The Scouring, I guess we can easily discard since your analysis of causal relationships seems to be suspect.

Also, hey guys look, I'm pretty sure Matt Ward made a Dakka account

Let's at least keep the debate a notch above personal attacks.

After Horus the only one who could have possibly succeeded in a similar capacity was Sanguinius. Out of all the other 17, onpy Sanguinius was as well-liked to pull half the Imperium into following him. Even Horus himself remarks how Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, and tried to have him slain instead of turned because he feared losing favour with the Gods should Sanguinius turn.

However, out of all the Primarchs Sanguinius was one of the most incorruptable. His only flaw was utter selflessness and humility to the point he believed himself unworthy of his heritage. He had no pride or ambition beyond service to his father, his sons and the Crusade, unlike Fulgrim. He didn't give in to rage or bloodlust although it was laced in his veins, unlike Angron. He didn't give in to the pursuit of revenge or "justice" like Lorgar or Mortarion. He wasn't tricked like Alpharius. He wasn't envious of his counterpart like Perturabo. He wasn't betrayed by the Imperium and forced out like Magnus or Curze.

 Robguy wrote:
The only primarchs that I consider "incorruptable", so to speak, would be Vulkan (basically gets off on being the good guy, defending the weak, that sort of thing), and Rogal Dorn (pre-emperor death, at least. He loved him too much to betray him), and Ferrus Manus (who's pretty much always been described as stalwart and unshakeable).

The rest were pretty much a toss up, even Sangiunus was described as vain, so it's not that much of a stretch that he would choose to align with Chaos instead of dying. Roboute Guilliman was ambitious as feth, and there was even talk of him trying to become emperor 2.0 after the heresy, or at least de-facto emperor if nothing else. Khan is kind of a wild card, nobody really knows all that much about him. And the Space Wolves are perpetually angry space vikings, it's honestly more of a surprise that they HAVEN'T turned to Khorne yet, I'd imagine they'd get along well. Corax was pretty emo, and he'd probably convert in exchange for saving his legion. And the Lion... well we all know that the dark angels are THE MOST LOYAL chapter, there's ABSOLUTELY no way he has ANYTHING to do with heresy. Hell, he even gave Perturabo all his siege weapons in exchange for support as the warmaster.

Couple arguments here.

1. Sanguinius is uncorruptible. Not only from dex fluff but from HH fluff. Its not gonna happen. He knew he would die if he fought Horus, but did it for the good of the imperium. (Would a been better had he lives)

2. Yes, guilliman had ambition. An ambition to see a grand and self sufiicent human empire. He didn't want power, lordship or anything. Matter of fact, in his empire 2.0 he almost forced Sangiunius to take the position. He split his 100k+ marine legion up after heresy. Could have easily take. Over things. Not seeing it.


3. Lion- he had 0 idea he gave his weapons to a traitor and in fact thought they were being used to slay a traitor. He later goes on to mop the floor with the night lords several times over along with kicking the gak out of there primarch. Twice. Hell he almost exterminated them. I again say. If the gods could have gotten the lion. They would not have went for Luther.
The rest kinda agree.

 Robguy wrote:
Also, hey guys look, I'm pretty sure Matt Ward made a Dakka account

Aren't you clever? Did your thirteen year old brother give you that one, or did you come up with it all by yourself?

I mean, unless Mat Ward simply has a reputation for good critical reading analysis, in which case I apologize, and thank you.

 Robguy wrote:
And the Lion... well we all know that the dark angels are THE MOST LOYAL chapter, there's ABSOLUTELY no way he has ANYTHING to do with heresy. Hell, he even gave Perturabo all his siege weapons in exchange for support as the warmaster.

No, no, no, no. As pointed out by raiden, he took these weapons out of the hands of a Traitor Forgeworld, then killed a force of Sons of Horus for them, and then handed them over to Perturabo, who was going for Istvaan, allegedly to fight Horus.
See where I'm going? Everything the Lion did that was to do with those weapons was against Horus.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And you're still confusing what that sentence says. It says that's all Dorn did, not Dorn did all, lol.

I asserted that the Fists did the heavy-lifting, not that they were the only ones who pushed the traitors back- the Codex Astartes does not approve of your strawmans.

Well, this thread got a lot more interesting. Also, looking at join dates relative to the time Matt Ward got fired, Vet is probably not Ward. Although that's largely due to Matt Ward probably not having the cojones to enlist.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And you're still confusing what that sentence says. It says that's all Dorn did, not Dorn did all, lol.

I asserted that the Fists did the heavy-lifting, not that they were the only ones who pushed the traitors back- the Codex Astartes does not approve of your strawmans.

Maybe as someone else noted, the white scars are implied to have done the heavy listing too.

I honestly think the best interpretion of the scouring is that the Ultramarines restored and kept order while the other legions that where combat effective went hard after the traitor legions

A way I could conceivably see Sanguinus leading a rebellion is if he thought that it was in the best interests of the Imperium, like if he thought that the emperor was tyrannical or trying to install himself as a god of sort. He definitely wouldn't accept the ruinous powers outright, but he could theoretically be manipulated through an indirect approach. He seems like the kind of guy to have strong opinions, and have the guts to stand by them, so if he thinks the emperor is no good, he'd do something about it. Is it likely? No. But anything is possible.

This would arguably be a more powerful rebellion as well, because there's a good chance he'd get all of the OTL heretic primarchs to join him, as well as the possibility of a loyalist primarch or two. Almost all of the primarchs trust him implicitly, and if he has a reason to turn against his father, they'd probably at least hear him out. Then, it's possible he's turned to chaos later, especially if he's surrounded by chaos worshiping brothers. It's a bit of a slow-roll, but it could theoretically work?

But yeah, it's kind of Sanguinus and Horus or bust, none of the other primarchs had the influence to pull this sort of thing off. They would have ended up like the two primarchs scratched from the history books.

Only problem with that is. Sanguinius trusted his brothers and the big E more than they trusted him. He fully believes whatever Big E said is right. I don't see him rebelling.

The only way they ever could get to sangy is through his legion read fear to Fred, its not the best written but its far from bad and sticks pretty much to how I see things going cept some specific psyker shenanigans.

And after they would claim him his charisma and influence would be gone.

For what it is worth, I feel that if Horus stays true and dies a hero's death. Fulgrim is the next likely candidate. He usually keeps contact with the rest of his brother Primarchs.

If everyone recalls, it took lots of time to fully convert Horus to pure Chaos. Given enough time, Fulgrim could keep his sins in check to manipulate his brothers, to lead them into the Fulgrim Federation.

SYKOJAK wrote:
For what it is worth, I feel that if Horus stays true and dies a hero's death. Fulgrim is the next likely candidate. He usually keeps contact with the rest of his brother Primarchs.

If everyone recalls, it took lots of time to fully convert Horus to pure Chaos. Given enough time, Fulgrim could keep his sins in check to manipulate his brothers, to lead them into the Fulgrim Federation.

He was universally popular though. I recall that the Iron Warriors and Death Guard disliked their gaudiness, the World Eaters disliked them for their refined nature. Hell, even Ferrus Manus wouldn't turn for Fulgrim and they were said to be closer than any two Primarchs.

I remember earlier in this thread someone said that the only real way to get to Sanguinus was through his legion. I reread the Dornian Heresy and made me wonder, in trying to get Sanguinus to fall, what if Nurgle led the charge forcing his plagues upon Sanguinus's men and perhaps Sanguinus himself and then play the waiting game, never letting the disease be strong enough to kill Sanguinus but enough to cripple and torment him like that one Death Guard marine in Flight of the Eisenstien who only turns to Nurgle's embrace after his will and hope finally break?

 King Pariah wrote:
I remember earlier in this thread someone said that the only real way to get to Sanguinus was through his legion. I reread the Dornian Heresy and made me wonder, in trying to get Sanguinus to fall, what if Nurgle led the charge forcing his plagues upon Sanguinus's men and perhaps Sanguinus himself and then play the waiting game, never letting the disease be strong enough to kill Sanguinus but enough to cripple and torment him like that one Death Guard marine in Flight of the Eisenstien who only turns to Nurgle's embrace after his will and hope finally break?

SPOILERS FROM FEAR TO TREAD-

the way to get sanguinius was to corrupt his legion through their geneseed flaw- the red thirst. It was to force his legion to fall into such bloodlust and throw away all bounds of honor and friendship. To cause them to fall so far from the honorable warrior and saviors that his spirit would become crushed. Death was acceptable, sanguinius felt his children's death, they actual caused him pain, but the deaths he could cope with, for the most part. There fall from grace is another thing. -actual plot spoiler- (Khabanda forced the red rage on the legion through a deamonic ragefire, tried to convince Sanguinius to take it into himself, and thereby save his legion from it. In doing so would have most likely become the "red screaming angel" )

tgjensen wrote:
Let's at least keep the debate a notch above personal attacks.

Yes, please.

This is the only general warning that will happen in this thread.

From here on in, if the rules of this site are broken, there will be...consequences.

SYKOJAK wrote:
For what it is worth, I feel that if Horus stays true and dies a hero's death. Fulgrim is the next likely candidate. He usually keeps contact with the rest of his brother Primarchs.

If everyone recalls, it took lots of time to fully convert Horus to pure Chaos. Given enough time, Fulgrim could keep his sins in check to manipulate his brothers, to lead them into the Fulgrim Federation.

HAHAHAHA

If by "lots of time to convert Horus" you mean just a couple days with Erebus giving the convincing argument of "The Emperor is EEEEEEVUUUUUL" in a dream?

Horus fell faster then guardsmen to Chaos. And we can all thank McNeil for that horrible, horrible book.

 Wyzilla wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
For what it is worth, I feel that if Horus stays true and dies a hero's death. Fulgrim is the next likely candidate. He usually keeps contact with the rest of his brother Primarchs.

If everyone recalls, it took lots of time to fully convert Horus to pure Chaos. Given enough time, Fulgrim could keep his sins in check to manipulate his brothers, to lead them into the Fulgrim Federation.

HAHAHAHA

If by "lots of time to convert Horus" you mean just a couple days with Erebus giving the convincing argument of "The Emperor is EEEEEEVUUUUUL" in a dream?

Horus fell faster then guardsmen to Chaos. And we can all thank McNeil for that horrible, horrible book.

Dreams can stretch out time to infinite lengths. Its a dream. Horus could have been under for days but to him it felt like decades. Horus also had the grand priviledge of having Erebus trying to perform Inception on him, while dying and having everything he knew and love being revealed as a lie

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
For what it is worth, I feel that if Horus stays true and dies a hero's death. Fulgrim is the next likely candidate. He usually keeps contact with the rest of his brother Primarchs.

If everyone recalls, it took lots of time to fully convert Horus to pure Chaos. Given enough time, Fulgrim could keep his sins in check to manipulate his brothers, to lead them into the Fulgrim Federation.

HAHAHAHA

If by "lots of time to convert Horus" you mean just a couple days with Erebus giving the convincing argument of "The Emperor is EEEEEEVUUUUUL" in a dream?

Horus fell faster then guardsmen to Chaos. And we can all thank McNeil for that horrible, horrible book.

Dreams can stretch out time to infinite lengths. Its a dream. Horus could have been under for days but to him it felt like decades. Horus also had the grand priviledge of having Erebus trying to perform Inception on him, while dying and having everything he knew and love being revealed as a lie

Except in the book it boiled down to Erebus simply showing him images that could have been complete bs, and anyone capable of meager critical thinking would have no reason to believe. Also, yeah no, in the book it is just Erebus saying EMPEROR BAD, CHAOS GUD and Horus falling in with it with very little protest at all. It makes Horus look like young child, appearing to even lack basic critical thinking skills found even in adolescents. Especially given that it was pulled off by just a small cabal of native psykers- so apparently all you needed to turn what was supposed to be one of the greatest primarchs from his creator and long-time father figure was just making him doubt in him, while presenting no evidence.

Really, all that horrible book did was prove that Horus is mentally challenged oaf.But of course, given the fairly poor writing standards of the Horus Heresy, most of the Primarch do just come off as whiny children, and are as far removed from the intellect of actual leaders as possible.

Alpharius would've thrown his toys out of the pram faster than Horus, judging by how quickly he believed a bunch of xenos and their images. I mean, photoshop guys!?

 ChazSexington wrote:
Alpharius would've thrown his toys out of the pram faster than Horus, judging by how quickly he believed a bunch of xenos and their images. I mean, photoshop guys!?

Yeah, Alpharius was far worse. The Horus Heresy overall really needs to just be rebooted and carefully handed out to authors, or give each specific author a legion to work with, and only that author writes that legion for some basic consistency. That way we don't have another case of Abnett setting up all his wonderful pieces, then McNeil barges in a drunken stupor and smashes all the work.

I mean, if the normal Black Library was written like the Horus Heresy, Guy Haley would have quickly butted into ADB's Night Lords and written Blood Reaver instead, then finally Abnett would have finished the series with Void Stalker.

Sanguineus is my choice! And he isnt incorruptible as eny primarch . Imagine that horus dies chaos gods give little different dream or vision or whatever to Sanguineus and blam. I understand that every one is just protecting theirs favorite character , but I honestly think that eny on can be turned , maiby in name of good or in the name of imperium, it's just time and eford for chaos and so on + I don't think chaos needs to destroy imperium it needs war suffering and such... ( sorry for bad English )

I don't think The Alpha Legion (fully) believed the Cabal and are in fact working their own game.

At least I did believe that after LEGION.

Now, not so much...

 darkflame182 wrote:
Sanguineus is my choice! And he isnt incorruptible as eny primarch . Imagine that horus dies chaos gods give little different dream or vision or whatever to Sanguineus and blam. I understand that every one is just protecting theirs favorite character , but I honestly think that eny on can be turned , maiby in name of good or in the name of imperium, it's just time and eford for chaos and so on + I don't think chaos needs to destroy imperium it needs war suffering and such... ( sorry for bad English )

my favorite is actually guilliman. I love sanguinius tho, Johnson too. but no, it explicitly states in fluff (BL) that he will/would have never fallen.